Slot Games' RTP, variable??

[seoincorporation]

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This is awesome ultraBTC, thanks for sharing this information and I hope you don't get in trouble for doing it because this is something that users shouldn't know at all.

What is crazy for me is that they simulate 10 billion spins and that's how they estimate the RTP. But I can be sure their simulation was always the same amount, and if the users always bet different amounts then the RTP should change.

[rijaljun]

Of course rijaljun. Will make update here about the separate thread.

Alright, thank you for that! I am sure that many could learn a thing or two from this thread and from yours that will be soon posted. I’ll be checking this thread and your account as well from time to time. Hoping to hear from you real soon.

[ultraBTC]

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This is awesome ultraBTC, thanks for sharing this information and I hope you don't get in trouble for doing it because this is something that users shouldn't know at all.

What is crazy for me is that they simulate 10 billion spins and that's how they estimate the RTP. But I can be sure their simulation was always the same amount, and if the users always bet different amounts then the RTP should change.

The thing is, for extremely high-variance slot games (like this one), simulation goes in billions of spins. (You will notice that in this particular game, the chance of highest payout is 1:4million spins/without buying a free spins feature). So with such a high variance, the sample needs to go in billions to approach the theoretical mean. Less is probably required to be within SD (Standard Deviation). It's the Law of Large Numbers.

For low/middle variance slots, it's in terms of millions of spins or less depending on volatility.

For example, take a look of this LIVE RTP sample:



You will notice drastic variations in a short time frame (today, yesterday). But, when the sample gets huge (semester), it's pretty much within the theoretical mean.

[ultraBTC]

This is awesome ultraBTC, thanks for sharing this information and I hope you don't get in trouble for doing it because this is something that users shouldn't know at all.

Nah, I don't have problems with that & sharing some information that might be useful to players and the community. My point is that players should be educated and decide/choose where are the best chances to play.

[Saint-loup]

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This is awesome ultraBTC, thanks for sharing this information and I hope you don't get in trouble for doing it because this is something that users shouldn't know at all.

What is crazy for me is that they simulate 10 billion spins and that's how they estimate the RTP. But I can be sure their simulation was always the same amount, and if the users always bet different amounts then the RTP should change.

The thing is, for extremely high-variance slot games (like this one), simulation goes in billions of spins. (You will notice that in this particular game, the chance of highest payout is 1:4million spins/without buying a free spins feature). So with such a high variance, the sample needs to go in billions to approach the theoretical mean. Less is probably required to be within SD (Standard Deviation). It's the Law of Large Numbers.

For low/middle variance slots, it's in terms of millions of spins or less depending on volatility.

For example, take a look of this LIVE RTP sample:



You will notice drastic variations in a short time frame (today, yesterday). But, when the sample gets huge (semester), it's pretty much within the theoretical mean.

79.5% of RTP while it's supposed to be 93% that's a pretty high gap indeed, and I'm not talking about the 23% of the day... The volatility of slots seems to be way higher than the one of table games (100% instead of 98% here), then people should be aware and educated about that. If they are not ready to bet small stakes and to spend big amounts of time, their bank roll can be wipe out by volatility and they can face big losses.

[Danydee]

 Searching for a game, and guess what !?
 I literally found two versions of it, maybe could think that is just a displaying bug, but:

               





 After looking on games infos of each version it is been confirmed

               

[mu_enrico]

^No Limit city is known to have two versions of its games:
Regular with ~96% RTP and DX-1 with ~94% RTP

Normally, the casino will display "DX-1" or only use the best/desired version.

[Kakmakr]

The way I understand it is the following....

The 3rd Party Service Provider will give the casino the option to choose which RTP it wants them to configure for the game that they are hosting. Then that Slot will run on the RTP that the provider configured for that casino.

Some casino's offer the option to show you what RTP are currently configured for that Slot, like Bitcasino.io / Stake.com ... and/or you can check while you are within some of the Slots.

So to answer your question... Yes, the RTP can be re-adjusted ...but it is done on the 3rd Party Service provider side... and not by the casino. Now, this is applicable to the third party Slots.... but some casinos have their own original games... and with these games, the casino can change the RTP as they like.  

[qwertyup23]

I'm not sure but I remember reading a similar discussion back then as the player tried to point out there was one casino that had a slightly higher payout compared to another casino even though the game is the same.

I think one of the slot providers that lets you do this is Booming or Betsoft, not sure if it's both of them but i'm sure that the name of the provider is starting with the letter "B" since these are the providers that most casinos have back then.

This is interesting- was the discussion backed with evidence and facts? In addition, did the gambling websites disclose such information to the public or was it purely based on his gathered data and information? I am curious as to how the methodology of such research went as this can either make or break a gambling website's profit in the long-run.

As regards to OP's question, I really doubt that a gambling website would disclose such important piece of information to the public. Preferably, slot machines that have high RTP are the ones to be preferred if you plan on gambling long-term. But this could definitely hurt the gambling business as this would be prejudicial on their part.

[Danydee]

So to answer your question... Yes, the RTP can be re-adjusted ...but it is done on the 3rd Party Service provider side... and not by the casino. Now, this is applicable to the third party Slots.... but some casinos have their own original games... and with these games, the casino can change the RTP as they like.  

 In some cases the casino is not displaying or redirecting directly to the provider servers, "the url bar is not showing the common provider url/address, it showing instead the casino url".
 This case it needs some analysis to see if it is the provider server that is running under the visible url, or if is there some parameters that can allow the casino some tricking of the results.

[Danydee]

 Here is an excellent thread on the subject by: bitcasinorank
 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5393892.0



 and here is also a very great sensibilisation article from him:
 https://www.gamblersbay.com/lowered-rtp-slots

How to spot "fake slots"?

This question is essential and highly related to the topic for a simple reason. You can quickly get into the trap by thinking you are playing your favorite high-RTP slot game and not realizing it's a cloned version. Luckily, there is a 100% efficient method to check if the slot game is original.

Online slots powered by trusted and reputable game providers are hosted at the provider's servers. In other words, online casinos can't influence players' game-play at all. That way, players are assured that online casinos can't change anything related to the particular slot game. To quickly recognize pirated slots, follow these steps:

1.  Download Firefox . . . . . .

[Danydee]

Hi @ultraBTC , Hi everyone

Could I ask you, how do providers are paid ? Do they're taking percentage of the edge ??

I my mind is to clarify how's the interest of a provider to rig a game !

[Kakmakr]

 Hi

 Si it is true that RTP of slot games can be adapted to the casinos preferences ??
 
 do all providers do this ?


 And what about when slots are accessed directly on the casino website, here anything can happen, things like avoiding use of RNG too.



 Thanks to everybody

Some 3rd party Slot providers offer different RTP percentages, so the casino can decide what RTP they want to use. I know from experience that the RTP for Slots in "brick n mortar" casinos cannot be changed on the fly. There are a lot of hoops and regulations that you have to adhere to, when you want to adjust the RTP.

I have to be honest, my knowledge on online casinos (Slots) are not on par with what I know from Slots in "brick n mortar" casinos, but in regulated casinos this should be the same.

Now this is a whole different story for the in-house / original games... I think the casinos adjust those on the fly.  

Ps - All money wagered goes into the casino's bankroll..

[Danydee]

Ps - All money wagered goes into the casino's bankroll..

Ok, thank you

But what about the providers remuneration?  it is on percentage basis ? Fixed rates ?  Both ??

[Eureka_07]

<snip>
But what about the providers remuneration?  it is on percentage basis ? Fixed rates ?  Both ??

I think most of the time, slot game providers' remuneration depends on the job they have done with the casino operator. If it is a house game, most likely, casino will pay the developers/providers a one time payment.
On the other hand, I think providers like Pragmatic, NetEnt, YGGDRASIL, etc. are bound to get percentage based from the revenue that the slot has made.
I don't think casino will offer fixed rates (per time unit) for the provider, just imagine if the game does not became popular to their players and close to no one is playing it. So, I think percentage basis is what casino thinks are the best for themselves.

[Danydee]

<snip>
But what about the providers remuneration?  it is on percentage basis ? Fixed rates ?  Both ??

I think most of the time, slot game providers' remuneration depends on the job they have done with the casino operator. If it is a house game, most likely, casino will pay the developers/providers a one time payment.
On the other hand, I think providers like Pragmatic, NetEnt, YGGDRASIL, etc. are bound to get percentage based from the revenue that the slot has made.
I don't think casino will offer fixed rates (per time unit) for the provider, just imagine if the game does not became popular to their players and close to no one is playing it. So, I think percentage basis is what casino thinks are the best for themselves.

 Ok,

 That is comforting my guesses ..


 So while I playing a game I've played a lot before, I noticed many clear indications that the game could be rigged ! And that's in differents casinos.

 So I think maybe the provider could make like that some aggressive shots to cumulate high benefits!

 

[danadc]

<snip>
But what about the providers remuneration?  it is on percentage basis ? Fixed rates ?  Both ??

I think most of the time, slot game providers' remuneration depends on the job they have done with the casino operator. If it is a house game, most likely, casino will pay the developers/providers a one time payment.
On the other hand, I think providers like Pragmatic, NetEnt, YGGDRASIL, etc. are bound to get percentage based from the revenue that the slot has made.
I don't think casino will offer fixed rates (per time unit) for the provider, just imagine if the game does not became popular to their players and close to no one is playing it. So, I think percentage basis is what casino thinks are the best for themselves.

 Ok,

 That is comforting my guesses ..


 So while I playing a game I've played a lot before, I noticed many clear indications that the game could be rigged ! And that's in differents casinos.

 So I think maybe the provider could make like that some aggressive shots to cumulate high benefits!

 

How did you notice that? For a game as difficult to understand as slots, it is strange that a pattern is established, if you say that a slot game is fixed, what are the tools that you used? I ask because one of the casino games that I least trust is slots, because the possibility of losing is stronger than winning, and if you win it is very little, unless they have a large multiplier.

I have seen many slots, from providers, but based on your experience, which ones do you think have a better chance of being more fair or winning? I can not understand the logic of a slot machine, it is very difficult, you can lose up to 100 times in a row and it is not considered an advantage.

[Danydee]

<snip>
But what about the providers remuneration?  it is on percentage basis ? Fixed rates ?  Both ??

I think most of the time, slot game providers' remuneration depends on the job they have done with the casino operator. If it is a house game, most likely, casino will pay the developers/providers a one time payment.
On the other hand, I think providers like Pragmatic, NetEnt, YGGDRASIL, etc. are bound to get percentage based from the revenue that the slot has made.
I don't think casino will offer fixed rates (per time unit) for the provider, just imagine if the game does not became popular to their players and close to no one is playing it. So, I think percentage basis is what casino thinks are the best for themselves.

 Ok,

 That is comforting my guesses ..


 So while I playing a game I've played a lot before, I noticed many clear indications that the game could be rigged ! And that's in differents casinos.

 So I think maybe the provider could make like that some aggressive shots to cumulate high benefits!

 

How did you notice that? For a game as difficult to understand as slots, it is strange that a pattern is established, if you say that a slot game is fixed, what are the tools that you used? I ask because one of the casino games that I least trust is slots, because the possibility of losing is stronger than winning, and if you win it is very little, unless they have a large multiplier.

I have seen many slots, from providers, but based on your experience, which ones do you think have a better chance of being more fair or winning? I can not understand the logic of a slot machine, it is very difficult, you can lose up to 100 times in a row and it is not considered an advantage.

 Justly that's a very strange thing, while playing ("Book of darkness" from betsoft) on differents casinos, (but from the same browser). Recently, when getting the "free spins feature", there is expanding symbols feature.. and it is of course paying higher rates for the rarest symbols as the characters and the items! and so the symbols "Q, A, K" are at the lowest rates..




 
  The weird thing is that while getting a (common) symbol ("K, Q, A") selected, during the free spins is the rarest symbols that are drawn/rolled.. that could be put down to the hasard if it was just few times!
 but that being systematical.. imagine you playing a slot game, and is the rarest symbols that instead sre rolled, more and more, roll after roll !!

[LUCKMCFLY]

<snip>
But what about the providers remuneration?  it is on percentage basis ? Fixed rates ?  Both ??

I think most of the time, slot game providers' remuneration depends on the job they have done with the casino operator. If it is a house game, most likely, casino will pay the developers/providers a one time payment.
On the other hand, I think providers like Pragmatic, NetEnt, YGGDRASIL, etc. are bound to get percentage based from the revenue that the slot has made.
I don't think casino will offer fixed rates (per time unit) for the provider, just imagine if the game does not became popular to their players and close to no one is playing it. So, I think percentage basis is what casino thinks are the best for themselves.

Yes, that means that mostly the RTP is part of what the casino assigns, I have seen many casino players, that before playing the first thing they investigate is the RTP offered by the slots, and one of the best I have Seen is the one from stake.com and bitcasino.io, really when you play you feel that they have more chance to win, but in my personal opinion due to my experience, it is not much but something I have learned is that in Pragmatic Play slots I have more options to win, I don't know if it's because I like them more or because I see more things, but I do win more, more with those that are from the gods of Olympus.

[Kakmakr]

Ps - All money wagered goes into the casino's bankroll..

Ok, thank you

But what about the providers remuneration?  it is on percentage basis ? Fixed rates ?  Both ??

The information on this is very confidential between the casino and the 3rd party service provider, so you will not get "clear" answers on that. Logic says that they enter into a contractual agreement to take a percentage of the profits made on those Slots and that they have some kind of "hire" agreement in place... with options to change the RTP.

It is a myth that the RTP and Variance are being changed on the fly, but we know different casinos can run the same Slot on different RTP, so you will have to do some research to see which Slot is running what RTP to improve your odds. (Note it will be 1 or 2 percent at best, so it does not make a world of difference)