Slot Games' RTP, variable??

[seoincorporation]

[Can it mean that when people are saying that if a big Jackpot won on a slot, you shouldn't expect another big win on this slot any time soon?

No. This shouldn't be the case with any truly random slot game. Any past event doesn't have influence on future event.

In other words, if your chance for a jackpot is 1:1000000. On every spin it is still 1:1000000, no matter if jackpot has been won seconds or months ago by other player.

Here is the trick... RTP doesn't mean it's provably fair, and each time the game hits a jackpot, then the game has to normalize the RTP, and that means users will have a losing streak until the RTP gets down to 94% or the percent the game has. But here the trick is the multiple for the same game... that means if one hits the jackpot. other 300 users will lose until the game recovers the money. And that's why we can't verify each roll in the slots machines, because they manipulate the game until recover, and that's a secure way to always win for the casino.

For provably fair games they can win the jackpot back to back with the right luck, and with that kind of games the house not always win, sometimes users with good look will take more profit than the house.

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[Danydee]

 Some providers like BGaming started to made provably fair games but has abort this !

 I think this question of manipulation of RTP (or RTP stats) it can occur in a more subtile way.. for the calculation and showing the stats: if there is two users who play a rigged game, one lose his bets with high stakes and the other double his bettings with a minimal stakes, then the global RTP stats will show the average (for the same number of bets).



  The question is they making the speech to selling us these (licenses.. licensing RNGs.. etc.) as a warranty..  while in fact there is no way to verify the fairness they're running behind.. we have no other choice than just trusting them.

  
 An example, for Pragmatic (Wheel of fortune) based games.. where there is a dealer spin the wheel to get a result, I noticed in certains periods that all dealers don't spin the way hard enough to making the wheel do just between 1 and 2' spins in average..
the problem this way, is that the dealer can easily monitor to target the spin the avoid those majors wins that are  for some present in just one single position for 50+ positions ..



 PS..  It seems about the game "Sweet Bonanza" that is been caped to a maximum win ~21,000×.. I just noticed that in the descriptions.. but I still think/have that feeling it is/ or can get rigged..

[ultraBTC]

Here is the trick... RTP doesn't mean it's provably fair

Yes, tRTP itself doesn't mean it's provably fair. Or let's say fair. 99% tRTP slot game can be rogued, and 92% tRTP can be a fair game. And vice versa. Those are different terms.

and each time the game hits a jackpot, then the game has to normalize the RTP, and that means users will have a losing streak until the RTP gets down to 94% or the percent the game has.

This shouldn't be the case with modern random online slots. I am emphasizing the words "shouldn't" and "random" and "modern slots". The slot game doesn't have to normalize RTP. (in the sense its forced/manipulated). It's in the law of big numbers that will naturally normalize RTP. Bigger the number of bets/spins/trials, it's closer to tRTP. Closer to the mean. Its just math. Of course, it also depends on the variance of the game.

But here the trick is the multiple for the same game... that means if one hits the jackpot. other 300 users will lose until the game recovers the money. And that's why we can't verify each roll in the slots machines, because they manipulate the game until recover, and that's a secure way to always win for the casino.

I know where are you coming from, but again, this scenario will naturally happen over millions/billions of spins. Especially with high variance slots. When you see a lucky 10,000xbet winner, yeah, there are hundreds of losers. My point is that slot game doesn't have to be "forced" to reach RTP until the game recovers the money.

That's why you will rarely see GGR in minus in medium-to-high trafficked online casinos. Simply because bets/spins/trials reaches millions/billions. In small casinos, it's not uncommon to see monthly GGR in minus.

Online casino owners shouldn't worry at all about winners/losers'. Or better to say deposits/cash-outs. And casinos that know what they are doing, are not worried about huge cash-out. It's actually great advertisement. All they should care about is number of bets/spins/trials. The bigger number of spins, its closer to the tRTP. Still, not many people in the industry realize that. One huge cashout, and panic taster is on :-)

Just as a side note: I am not saying that there is no possibility that some rogue game provider use "force" mechanic in order to manipulate RTP in the terms of RTP recovery after big win. I mean, we have seen it all, from online casinos, game providers, affiliates and players. My point is that there is no need for this kind of an action. House always win in the long term.

[ultraBTC]

 I think this question of manipulation of RTP (or RTP stats) it can occur in a more subtile way.. for the calculation and showing the stats: if there is two users who play a rigged game, one lose his bets with high stakes and the other double his bettings with a minimal stakes, then the global RTP stats will show the average (for the same number of bets).

Yeah, this is a good sample how manipulation can be done. For me personally, I had doubts about one particular game provider with patterns as in your sample above.

 The question is they making the speech to selling us these (licenses.. licensing RNGs.. etc.) as a warranty..  while in fact there is no way to verify the fairness they're running behind.. we have no other choice than just trusting them.

Sadly, but true. In fact, there is a way to verify the fairness. But, it costs. Both time & money.

[paxmao]

[Can it mean that when people are saying that if a big Jackpot won on a slot, you shouldn't expect another big win on this slot any time soon?

No. This shouldn't be the case with any truly random slot game. Any past event doesn't have influence on future event.

In other words, if your chance for a jackpot is 1:1000000. On every spin it is still 1:1000000, no matter if jackpot has been won seconds or months ago by other player.

Here is the trick... RTP doesn't mean it's provably fair, and each time the game hits a jackpot, then the game has to normalize the RTP, and that means users will have a losing streak until the RTP gets down to 94% or the percent the game has. But here the trick is the multiple for the same game... that means if one hits the jackpot. other 300 users will lose until the game recovers the money. And that's why we can't verify each roll in the slots machines, because they manipulate the game until recover, and that's a secure way to always win for the casino.

For provably fair games they can win the jackpot back to back with the right luck, and with that kind of games the house not always win, sometimes users with good look will take more profit than the house.

You are right, I am not sure if the average player is that concerned with all those concepts such as probably fair or other. It think that it is much more about ensuring afully comprehensive experience including some of the best individuals serving as a client customer help and dialoguing with the users when that is needed. All the technicals are far less important.

[ultraBTC]

You are right, I am not sure if the average player is that concerned with all those concepts such as probably fair or other. It think that it is much more about ensuring afully comprehensive experience including some of the best individuals serving as a client customer help and dialoguing with the users when that is needed. All the technicals are far less important.

What? Have you even read this topic?

[Porfirii]

You are right, I am not sure if the average player is that concerned with all those concepts such as probably fair or other. It think that it is much more about ensuring afully comprehensive experience including some of the best individuals serving as a client customer help and dialoguing with the users when that is needed. All the technicals are far less important.

What? Have you even read this topic?

I think that paxmao's is just a digression within the topic, as we are focusing on the technical details, in order to add the idea that for most gamblers it is not important whether it resets or not, because they will continue gambling due to other factors that they perceive as more important (even if they are not).

Back on topic, in the case of physical slot machines we have all heard that they are "hot" when there is a long time since the last jackpot, and at least in my country it is typical to see Chinese citizens playing because they know how to guess the point of the pattern for the return to player rate in a certain moment.

I am not any expert, but my intuition about the RTP technology is that this may have been simpler in the past, but in the modern times even the physical machines differ due to variables like who is the manufacturer, the machine model, and in certain cases even machine-by-machine programming. Not to say in online slots, where mechanics could vary even more easily in time.

To finish, in the cases in which provably fairness is real, we couldn't really say that the machine is "hot" anymore, and it goes against the classical perception we all have about the mechanics of these machines; so to me the provability is not a point as critical as in other games, like dices, coin tosses, roulette, etc.

[danadc]

You are right, I am not sure if the average player is that concerned with all those concepts such as probably fair or other. It think that it is much more about ensuring afully comprehensive experience including some of the best individuals serving as a client customer help and dialoguing with the users when that is needed. All the technicals are far less important.

What? Have you even read this topic?

As a player, I think that one has to ask all these kinds of questions and those of us who don't know much about the subject must take a break and put all our interest to learn from these concepts because even if you are not a complete veteran, it is important because here you put the money. I know that I am not going to have a completely technical knowledge based on programming because that is not my strong point, but if I know more about the games that I play, that for me would give me an idea of ​​what I can achieve and thus not be worried if in one My play went wrong because a casino robbed me or not, I didn't know what an RTP was or what it was for, and there are many players who don't know what an RTP is either and they still play.

[ultraBTC]

You are right, I am not sure if the average player is that concerned with all those concepts such as probably fair or other. It think that it is much more about ensuring afully comprehensive experience including some of the best individuals serving as a client customer help and dialoguing with the users when that is needed. All the technicals are far less important.

What? Have you even read this topic?

As a player, I think that one has to ask all these kinds of questions and those of us who don't know much about the subject must take a break and put all our interest to learn from these concepts because even if you are not a complete veteran, it is important because here you put the money. I know that I am not going to have a completely technical knowledge based on programming because that is not my strong point, but if I know more about the games that I play, that for me would give me an idea of ​​what I can achieve and thus not be worried if in one My play went wrong because a casino robbed me or not, I didn't know what an RTP was or what it was for, and there are many players who don't know what an RTP is either and they still play.

Okey guys, think I will take a break here from posting. It really doesn't make any sense to respond to bots. 

[Betwrong]

~

 The question is they making the speech to selling us these (licenses.. licensing RNGs.. etc.) as a warranty..  while in fact there is no way to verify the fairness they're running behind.. we have no other choice than just trusting them.

Sadly, but true. In fact, there is a way to verify the fairness. But, it costs. Both time & money.

But I've been always thinking that that's what regulators are doing. They have both, time and money, and it's their job to verify the fairness, in our case the stable, unchanging RTP, no matter what.

For example, I heard that licencing authorities use an algorithm to predetermine the result of all spins on a slot, within, say, 10 million spins, to make sure the RTP is the same as stated by the slot provider. Was it just a rumor, or are they really doing this?

[Saint-loup]

~

 The question is they making the speech to selling us these (licenses.. licensing RNGs.. etc.) as a warranty..  while in fact there is no way to verify the fairness they're running behind.. we have no other choice than just trusting them.

Sadly, but true. In fact, there is a way to verify the fairness. But, it costs. Both time & money.

But I've been always thinking that that's what regulators are doing. They have both, time and money, and it's their job to verify the fairness, in our case the stable, unchanging RTP, no matter what.

For example, I heard that licencing authorities use an algorithm to predetermine the result of all spins on a slot, within, say, 10 million spins, to make sure the RTP is the same as stated by the slot provider. Was it just a rumor, or are they really doing this?

It would mean the RNG of the slot is not truly random and the game can be cracked somehow, so I really doubt about that. A good entropy/randomness is also a protection against players, to avoid being tricked and exploited by them or by anyone. Anyway I don't think casinos would accept a slot game where you can guess the result of the next spins. As ultraBTC said "Any past event doesn't have influence on future event. In other words, if your chance for a jackpot is 1:1000000. On every spin it is still 1:1000000, no matter if jackpot has been won seconds or months ago by other player.", in other words it must work in the same way as a roulette where the same number can be drawn several times in a row.

[o48o]

The question was if RTP of slot games can  be adapted to casino preferences. Well, let's say not adapted but the FACT is that casinos CAN choose RTP settings if they are available on software provider's side.
Look for example, the latest release from the Nolimit City game provider:
-cut-
There are two RTP settings options: 96.09% & 94.13%
Some providers have more RTP settings options, like Pragmatic Play (3 RTP settings). And some, don't have options of lower RTP settings, just default/top one.

I've been meaning to research about slots return rates but didn't know where to start, so where did you got this data from? And is there any way to know what settings different casinos are using? I want to make a spreadsheet for my own amusement comparing slots rtp in different casinos.

[ultraBTC]

I've been meaning to research about slots return rates but didn't know where to start, so where did you got this data from? And is there any way to know what settings different casinos are using? I want to make a spreadsheet for my own amusement comparing slots rtp in different casinos.

Here is the source info: Online Casinos are using Reduced RTP Online Slot Versions . Though, just a few things in the list have changed in the meanwhile.

[ultraBTC]

But I've been always thinking that that's what regulators are doing. They have both, time and money, and it's their job to verify the fairness, in our case the stable, unchanging RTP, no matter what.

It all depends. Which regulator/license authority? Without going into details, but there are a big differences. What about casinos with no license at all?

But in the end, much of it depends on the people who run the business behind online casino. Still it's a wild wild west in some cases.

[Betwrong]

~ But I've been always thinking that that's what regulators are doing. They have both, time and money, and it's their job to verify the fairness, in our case the stable, unchanging RTP, no matter what.

For example, I heard that licencing authorities use an algorithm to predetermine the result of all spins on a slot, within, say, 10 million spins, to make sure the RTP is the same as stated by the slot provider. Was it just a rumor, or are they really doing this?

It would mean the RNG of the slot is not truly random and the game can be cracked somehow, so I really doubt about that. A good entropy/randomness is also a protection against players, to avoid being tricked and exploited by them or by anyone. Anyway I don't think casinos would accept a slot game where you can guess the result of the next spins. As ultraBTC said "Any past event doesn't have influence on future event. In other words, if your chance for a jackpot is 1:1000000. On every spin it is still 1:1000000, no matter if jackpot has been won seconds or months ago by other player.", in other words it must work in the same way as a roulette where the same number can be drawn several times in a row.

I will try to explain how I see it.

Imagine you have a physical casino called "Coin Toss", and what's going on there is people betting on either heads or tails, and you claim that your coin is not rigged, and that it's always 50/50 and stuff.

A guy comes to your casino and loses a lot of money because of betting on tails and martingaling and getting 13 heads in a row. He claims your coin is rigged, making a complaint to the authorities, and they decide to conduct an inspection. They take your coin, they toss it 10 million times, and see that it's not rigged, that the result is 49.9999% heads and 50.0001% tails, and they leave you alone. Now it is proven that your business if fair, but no one can take advantage of this information. You can't abuse it, right?

[Danydee]

I a maner of 50/50 probability 13(and more) same result in a row can happen quite frequently ..  


But I think in the case of an inspection what they should do is inspecting your game/coin if it is all regular and searching for eventual shitting elements..

If they decide to just make some number of tosses what guarantees if you not just disabled the rigging system for the time of the inspection!



Maybe some elements like for the cases quoted by ultraBTC (here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5386501.msg59316703#msg59316703 ) could alerts them about eventual infractions and then leads them to decide/or not to conduct an inspection..  but as stated/explained by Saint-loup even making billions of billions rolls to verify the average is not an indicator, as in the probabilities even the so so rarest events can actually occurs!

[Betwrong]

I a maner of 50/50 probability 13(and more) same result in a row can happen quite frequently ..  
But I think in the case of an inspection what they should do is inspecting your game/coin if it is all regular and searching for eventual shitting elements..

If they decide to just make some number of tosses what guarantees if you not just disabled the rigging system for the time of the inspection! ~

This is really interesting. Is it possible? Do you think it's possible to disable some rigging system for the time of the inspection, and then turn it on again? I mean, of course, it's possible, but I personally think that in reality inspectors are perfectly aware of such possibility, and there are measures in place for preventing it from happening.

[Danydee]

I a maner of 50/50 probability 13(and more) same result in a row can happen quite frequently ..  
But I think in the case of an inspection what they should do is inspecting your game/coin if it is all regular and searching for eventual shitting elements..

If they decide to just make some number of tosses what guarantees if you not just disabled the rigging system for the time of the inspection! ~

This is really interesting. Is it possible? Do you think it's possible to disable some rigging system for the time of the inspection, and then turn it on again? I mean, of course, it's possible, but I personally think that in reality inspectors are perfectly aware of such possibility, and there are measures in place for preventing it from happening.

I think that is depending on the licensing jurisdiction..
and I think that the thing is controlled like an administration/bureau is controlled.. I think that what is it.. or maybe authorities could ask providers/casinos to keep unalterable(like be backed online) registers/archives of all the operations made, and then the RNG should be encrypted by the licensing authority itself to put a signature certifying its use on the registers.



About the RTP,  Stake ordered/is running an enhanced RTP version of sweet bonanza (98%) 



Another thing that I want to evoke that I think is more important that the RTP, is the Payment structure / repartion..

 so if a slot machine can pay a decent win quite quickly you could then take your win and stop playing early in the game.. so that will be not very profitable and some casinos could not appreciate it!
 
 so the most of slot games operating are on the contrary repartiting the most of the returns on the small wins and making the big wins quite rare.. what should lead you to play more.. but (mathematically) the more you wager, the more you lose!

[SirJohnVonSlotty]

I just wanted to add my two cents for both MGA and Curacao licensed casinos

In most cases the game providers and regulators are the ones dictating the RTP. If you have Netent as an example, they don't want that anyone has a bad experience with their IP's, because games like Gonzo and others are exactly the reason why they, as a company, are that popular.

If a casino has an MGA license, then they have to comply, and if they have a Curacao license, they have to get an additional certificate (ISO/IEC 17025). Both the regulator and the game provider state that Gonzo for an example can be between 95% and 98%, but then it's up to the Casino to see if they want to play within that ballpark.

And any good casino knows that setting a slot game to 95% will lead to faster burnouts and dissatisfied customers, so they generally keep it around 96% or sometimes offer enhanced gams with RTP ranging between 97% and 98%.

This is only true for online casinos though, offline casinos are sometimes going down to 85%, and I have no clue how can they do that legally, but I stopped playing in offline casinos a while ago so I don't care about it at this point.

What I'm trying to say is, every casino that wants to actually entertain their users and become a name on the market will want to offer industry standard RTP's, and if you're following sites like AskGamblers or similar you'll know which ones are legit and which ones are just here to grab your money and disappear after a year.

[worldofcoins]

In a perfect world, yes. But everything has some advantages and some disadvantages. For example, a lower % means you will likely lose more money over time than a casino slot with a higher %. Looking at it the other way, a lower % will mean the game is more profitable both for the online casino and the game studio that supplies the game. Also, user demands play an essential role in this regard.