Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers

[larry_vw_1955]

i'll rather go with mid-2000s minidv handheld camera which supports file transfer over firewire. As a bonus you can also have hour-long record of the screen with phrase. 20 years shelf life of a cassette where outer layers of tape protect inner ones

i dont know though. isn't dv files digital storage format so if a few bits gets corrupted maybe the entire file is unreadable. at least with vhs tape, that cant happen.

[alexeyneu]

i'll rather go with mid-2000s minidv handheld camera which supports file transfer over firewire. As a bonus you can also have hour-long record of the screen with phrase. 20 years shelf life of a cassette where outer layers of tape protect inner ones

i dont know though. isn't dv files digital storage format so if a few bits gets corrupted maybe the entire file is unreadable. at least with vhs tape, that cant happen.

all headers within this mpeg2 (real format of minidv videos) is repeated so you'll lose half a second maximum. tool that transfers files works like dd so you can choose start position, count of blocks to read and block size , grab some blocks from the middle  put it into .mpeg and play it. there will be glitches at begin and end but you'll see all stuff.

[larry_vw_1955]

all headers within this mpeg2 (real format of minidv videos) is repeated so you'll lose half a second maximum. tool that transfers files works like dd so you can choose start position, count of blocks to read and block size , grab some blocks from the middle  put it into .mpeg and play it. there will be glitches at begin and end but you'll see all stuff.

cool. that's definitely a less difficult way to store your private keys. and it's foolproof since you're not transcribing anything from one medium to another. i think even normal cassette tape and a tape recorder if you don't mind speaking the seed phrase would work just fine. i have never heard of audio cassette tape going bad in 20 years. i think it can last forever pretty much. these are ways that are way simpler than having to get specialized equipment and undergo a very tediuous and time consuming process. but to each their own  

[m2017]

cool. that's definitely a less difficult way to store your private keys. and it's foolproof since you're not transcribing anything from one medium to another. i think even normal cassette tape and a tape recorder if you don't mind speaking the seed phrase would work just fine. i have never heard of audio cassette tape going bad in 20 years. i think it can last forever pretty much. these are ways that are way simpler than having to get specialized equipment and undergo a very tediuous and time consuming process. but to each their own  

But I have a completely opposite experience and can safely say that I have seen audio cassettes become unplayable after a long time. Even if these cassettes were simply lying around and not touched. You see, magnetic tape has the property of demagnetization.

I am inclined to believe that there is nothing safer in terms of preservation than solid storage media. At a minimum, paper and a pencil, at most - a piece of metal and an engraver (or similar).

[Oshio-man]

A little head up for signalling that I restored all the images on the OP. Thanks @Hyphen(-).
If you notice that some images are missing, or links are broken, do not hesitate to signal it to me so that I can fi it asap.

I have learned something new from this thread, I will definitely let you know if such error occur fillippone but the images are not missing which are very clear to view to understand.

[HideYourKeys]

Hi everyone!

I just wanted to bring a quick update after the summer. I have been working on a new design both for M8 and M6 washers. Now the BigJig is slightly smaller, and I am using dual color now, which looks better imho.

For instance I have added some lateral tabs to rotate it easier, made symbols for the lock and unlock positions, etc..

Here are some pictures:









Here also a render explaining all the upgrades:



Also, with regards to the capsules and other elements where the washers can be hidden in, I think that the steel capsule for the M6 washers is quite decent, I have to find and alternative for the M8 washers, but they are quite big (compared to the M6 ones), so idk if I will find something nice.

I will keep investigating, in the end, I believe the washer option is one of the best options available, they are cheap, you can replace them and dispose them easily... It is almost something "open source". I will keep on the investigation trying to find some good steel recipient for the M8 ones...

Another point which was something that I wanted it to solve, is to be able to deliver these washer, jig and stamps sets with the minimum KYC as possible (people do not want to give out their address for these things). I discovered that there are some companies (in my case InPost), which can handle Locker-Only deliveries (I just need an email, and the person who gets it picks a locker and receives the package there, it is not supported for all countries, but many across Europe at least).

[fillippone]

Now the BigJig is slightly smaller, and I am using dual color now, which looks better imho.

For instance I have added some lateral tabs to rotate it easier, made symbols for the lock and unlock positions, etc..

Hey, this is a nice update.
In my mind, those jigs should be disposable, with a sleek and simple design that can be used and then forgotten.
But hey, there's nothing wrong with adding some extra features, making the jig so badass!
Excellent work!

[trupp72]

Hi, i'm having some problems to get a good stamping on the washers with the hammer, so i was thinking to try with an arbor press.
I would like to know if there is anyone here who has already tried.
In praticular i would like to know if a 1 tonn press would be enough.
Thanks.

[m2017]

Hi, i'm having some problems to get a good stamping on the washers with the hammer, so i was thinking to try with an arbor press.
I would like to know if there is anyone here who has already tried.
In praticular i would like to know if a 1 tonn press would be enough.
Thanks.

I suppose this is a joke with a question about an arbor press.

For good stamping, you need to consider 2 components:

1 - Thickness and elasticity of the metal. And also, what kind of metal it is.

2 - Size and weight of the hammer, which is expressed in the force applied to the stamp when striking.

Each metal has corresponding characteristics (hardness, elasticity, pliability to processing, etc.) and, accordingly, it is necessary to select a sufficient level of striking force.

Based on my experience, I can say that for high-quality engraving on metal, it is enough to make 1 accurate and good strike (according to the level of applied force). But in order to develop the correct technique, you should first practice with a specific metal using different degrees of pressure when striking. Because in each specific case (depending on the type of metal), the striking force will have to vary.

Practice and with experience everything will work out.

[ovcijisir]

Hi everyone!

I just wanted to bring a quick update after the summer. I have been working on a new design both for M8 and M6 washers. Now the BigJig is slightly smaller, and I am using dual color now, which looks better imho.

For instance I have added some lateral tabs to rotate it easier, made symbols for the lock and unlock positions, etc..

Here are some pictures:

~
Here also a render explaining all the upgrades:


~

Also, with regards to the capsules and other elements where the washers can be hidden in, I think that the steel capsule for the M6 washers is quite decent, I have to find and alternative for the M8 washers, but they are quite big (compared to the M6 ones), so idk if I will find something nice.

I will keep investigating, in the end, I believe the washer option is one of the best options available, they are cheap, you can replace them and dispose them easily... It is almost something "open source". I will keep on the investigation trying to find some good steel recipient for the M8 ones...

Another point which was something that I wanted it to solve, is to be able to deliver these washer, jig and stamps sets with the minimum KYC as possible (people do not want to give out their address for these things). I discovered that there are some companies (in my case InPost), which can handle Locker-Only deliveries (I just need an email, and the person who gets it picks a locker and receives the package there, it is not supported for all countries, but many across Europe at least).

Are you using galvanized steel washers or stainless steel ones?

Galvanized steel ones should be easier to stamp, but they are vulnerable to corrosion, specially if you touch them with wet fingers, or store them in damp place.
I guess that seed could be recovered even if they corrode if they were stamped hard.

Stainless steel is harder to stamp, but it is less suspectible to corrosion (it can corrodw too, if it is in contact with other metal, or subjected to hard conditions).

I don't have any experience with stamping stainless steel and would like to hear your experience/ thoughts.

[trupp72]

i tried both A2 and A4 washers but even using all my power the letters are not readeble enough..
i'm using a 0.5kg hammer
the only think is that i'm using wood for the base.. i know a steel base would be better but i cant believe it would solve all my problem.. or would it?

Thats why i was thinking to buy a press, a 1 tonn costs about 70€ but i was wondering if 1 tonn press would be enough to print the letters

I can't be the only one who has thought about this solution.. or am i? eheheh

[ovcijisir]

i tried both A2 and A4 washers but even using all my power the letters are not readeble enough..
i'm using a 0.5kg hammer
the only think is that i'm using wood for the base.. i know a steel base would be better but i cant believe it would solve all my problem.. or would it?

Thats why i was thinking to buy a press, a 1 tonn costs about 70€ but i was wondering if 1 tonn press would be enough to print the letters

I can't be the only one who has thought about this solution.. or am i? eheheh

I thought a lot about about stamping washers too, but I did not want to buy stamps because I was not confident  enough thai it would work out ok. To be frank I was pretty suprised when I stumbled on this topic, now I see that a lot of guys went pretty far with this and that the method is already tested and working.

As for stainless steel washers, I suspected that they eould be pretty hard to stamp, probably better solution for them is to laser engrave them, if one has that option.

As for press I might have good solution to press letter without any machine but with a simple jig. I might share sketch later if i get to my computer.

[trupp72]

just to complete my explanation, my idea woube be to substitute the hammer with a press, while keeping the same other toools as the engravers and "blockmit" jig for M8 washers.

[m2017]

Thats why i was thinking to buy a press, a 1 tonn costs about 70€ but i was wondering if 1 tonn press would be enough to print the letters

Provide a link to this press (or similar) that you are considering purchasing.

You know, instead of wondering if you need such a press, you can just buy it and try to press washers with it. This will dispel all doubts. 

I can't be the only one who has thought about this solution.. or am i? eheheh

Iron and stainless steel washers are difficult to engrave. You would be the first to demonstrate the engraving method using a press in this thread. I would really like to see what the result of this looks like.

[LoyceV]

i was thinking to try with an arbor press.
~
In praticular i would like to know if a 1 tonn press would be enough.

I haven't tried it, but my gut feeling tells me 1000 kg on a metal letter stamp isn't going to make a dent.

i'm using a 0.5kg hammer

Get a bigger hammer Hit it with 1 kg.

the only think is that i'm using wood for the base.. i know a steel base would be better but i cant believe it would solve all my problem.. or would it?

Anvils are made out of steel for a reason. If the washer moves even a tiny bit into the wood, the force drops exponentially. Try it: get a small piece of wood, put it on a pillow, and try to hammer a small nail into the wood. It won't work.

I Googled a bit: different sites have different numbers, but it looks like the force of a hammer hit on steel can be 10 tonnes.

[trupp72]

Thats why i was thinking to buy a press, a 1 tonn costs about 70€ but i was wondering if 1 tonn press would be enough to print the letters

Provide a link to this press (or similar) that you are considering purchasing.

You know, instead of wondering if you need such a press, you can just buy it and try to press washers with it. This will dispel all doubts.  

I can't be the only one who has thought about this solution.. or am i? eheheh

Iron and stainless steel washers are difficult to engrave. You would be the first to demonstrate the engraving method using a press in this thread. I would really like to see what the result of this looks like.

this is the one i was considering about.. will see, if i buy and try i'll let you know

https://www.amazon.com/VEVOR-Arbor-Press-Ton-Manual/dp/B0CGJ4QT17/ref=sr_1_3?c=ts&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.R9D0nBpSlB6ttLT0cs6wZAw4xa7Xbz1KVijWCpMMSZ--PWVT0dArdY4KSRfVJ88oXWRSd_eNesosXxAbWtJj-_6jOvP3MvBT2XM6mQKTx4WMx6joOZEJl2NiLg36HloP15lsrXFPIauLFkizRLi9711X_F18bY_9QWYswe62PJp49GtCWMftIi61uqMndNB61n2ZONRUnDhbX4mmSe1T8A5GWKvlEmXr_OP7xZNeZ9D7gjiyueYmCJ5ja--NBsDqPVeSZbd56Bc0AMCPFWpezLydmRZt6SeCCPzXcik-15w.2xesjhCcsg2MmRBS0RJKJR2AlmJR2Csql6CS36ho4u8&dib_tag=se&keywords=Arbor%2BPresses&qid=1731255596&s=power-hand-tools&sr=1-3&ts_id=9022400011&th=1

[fillippone]

This is the one i was considering about.. will see, if i buy and try i'll let you know

I like the idea, but I have two doubts:

• How do you fix washers to match the pattern precisely? You still need a jig or something like that.
• Reviews of the press look terrible. Maybe there are other options?  

Intriguing idea anyway.

[Cricktor]

i'm using a 0.5kg hammer
the only think is that i'm using wood for the base.. i know a steel base would be better but i cant believe it would solve all my problem.. or would it?

The problem is mainly your wood base. It can flex and absorb the majority of your impact force. A heavier hammer is also advisable. A 500g hammer isn't beefy enough for my taste. With a hit surface size approx. a square-inch I'd have to concentrate too much to properly hit the stamp tool. Get something real and not a toy.

Look at the tools from fillippone's original post (picture is from there in smaller size), that's a proper hammer if it's at least 1kg:


fillippone used an anvil as base for a reason. You want something heavy and sturdy with significant inertia to move it and it should not flex at all. All your impact force should drive the stamp into the washer, no energy should be wasted in flexing or moving the base!

You don't need necessarily to buy an anvil. Get something heavy and beefy from the metal scrapyard, something compact upwards a few kilos with a flat surface is fine. Avoid flat sheet-like stuff, you want something chunky, blocky, more or less cube-shaped, the heavier the better.

I don't believe this arbor press will do a good job, if at all. For the money you can get a proper hammer, a good enough anvil and maybe some good washers, too. The arbor press will also be painstakingly slow, compared to a hammer. I didn't use a jig to position the stamp tool as I didn't care if my imprints are a bit jiggly and non-uniformly placed.

[trupp72]

Thanks for all the precious info, for the moment ill borrow a 1.5kg hammer and a steel base from a friend to give a try in the next days.

At this point considering your info im very hopeful that it will work.

Anyway, i'm still convinced that a press would be the easier way, but it would be way more expansive than the hammer.
After giving about 10 hammer hits i was already starting to feel tired LOL, so the press looked way way easier for somebody lazy as me aha.

I've seen some videos on youtube of people stamping with the press but they did on softer metals, and used a special tool to be attached to the press to hold the engravers in the right poisition.
I think a 2 tonn press would be fine but it costs about 150$, + the engraver holding tool that i wasn't able to find anywhere yet i'm sure wont be cheap as well..

So for the moment i give one last try with the bigger hammer.
But if btc reach 150k i promise myself i will buy the bigger press

[LoyceV]

Look at the tools from fillippone's original post (picture is from there in smaller size), that's a proper hammer if it's at least 1kg:

This anvil still looks like a toy compared to the hammer, but that may be because I'm used to this:

My vice-with-anvil weighs about 30 kg

It's probably enough though, and for sure much better than wood.

Thanks for all the precious info, for the moment ill borrow a 1.5kg hammer and a steel base from a friend to give a try in the next days.

You could even use a 1.5 kg hammer as base.

At this point considering your info im very hopeful that it will work.

You only need to do 2 things: make sure it doesn't move, and hit it hard enough. Something will dent.

I think a 2 tonn press would be fine but it costs about 150$, + the engraver holding tool that i wasn't able to find anywhere yet i'm sure wont be cheap as well..

That 1 tonne press looked like a toy. Even my €15 bottle jack uses hydraulics, and is rated at 5 tonnes.
I'd avoid spending money on the wrong tools: letter punches are designed to be used with a hammer.