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Author Topic: Why has bitcoin adoption failed in El Salvador?  (Read 10669 times)
Ratimov (OP)
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August 26, 2022, 05:16:10 PM
 #181

Show me a perfect economy or country in the world and everyone will be free to live in there, i saw a publication that state all the prominent countries with debt in their numbers, can you imagine that UK, US, china and some other well recognized countries all form the list, then someone asked, if all these countries could be in debts, who is now their lender or creditor?, Enough of saying all manners of talk about El-Savador and its bitcoin adoption, other countries that failed to do so have nothing to show forth, we need to understand that El-Savador adopted bitcoin and not altcoin, that's it decision while other should learn or remain mute about it decision, even if there's a change in power, as long as bitcoin remains, El-Savador will always have it a legal tender.

This is his decision, no one argues. I even suspect what caused such a decision, but it did not work out, since the venture with bitcoin bonds did not gain due demand from investors and the desired billion dollars of investment did not work out. The problem is not that El Salvador accepted bitcoin despite further persuasion from the International Monetary Fund to abandon this idea in order to count on another bailout. The problem is the high expectations of the community and the blind admiration for this event in style: look, El Salvador has accepted bitcoin as a means of payment, it's so cool. And in practice, besides applause, what do we have? Nothing, even the installation of atm's affects the adoption of bitcoin better than this law adopted in El Salvador. The news has been inflated to such a degree that this Salvadoran law does not correspond. Look at how the community received the news about the recognition of bitcoin in the Swiss city of Lugano. Who remembers him now and admires him? Virtually no one. And what are the cardinal differences in the degree of Bitcoin adoption between Lugano and El Salvador? Yes, almost none, I think, just the Salvadoran adoption was inflated due to the fact that it was the first, and the fact that, from a practical point of view, it does not have such a scale and greatness as mentions of it and admiration, few people care.

In short, what I generally talk about in this topic and in general on the entire forum about the situation with El Salvador is that big mentions of it do not correspond to the level of adoption that takes place in this country. Community overestimates this adoption and talk about it.

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August 26, 2022, 05:31:07 PM
 #182

...//...::

First of all, El Salvador has experience in adopting new currencies and if you read that story, that information is available to everyone, then when you document yourself, you find that there was a similar reaction for dollar and in those times the precariousness and access to information was much more difficult.

When some ordinary people who are in El Salvador say that it does not work (bitcoin), these comments are not far from the previous history when they received the dollar as legal tender, in the same way the analyzes of the experts of that time.

So if you look at how the dollar works in El Salvador today, it is (was, now there is bitcoin) the currency that is used, so much so that in that process the Colon (formerly legal currency) in the process did not disappear, nor did it leave to be official, but in practice it is not used, then the transition to the dollar was successful, but! after how many years? and it was the dollar, the USD, that everyone in that region was looking for.
...
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In any case, much more can be said as background in El Salvador, by the way you cannot compare it with anything in the bitcoin scale, it does not exist, this country is marking these guidelines as legal tender with bitcoin, so at having a history of adopting legal currency, it is the best comparison, for now, in order to understand or perhaps pretend to have close opinions to determine, is it a success or a failure, then I make this point here, to shorten ideas in my opinion.
...
The true promoters of bitcoin are there, in that generation that by the way began or grew with the adoption of the dollar in 2001, (21 years ago) that generation has been empowered, they have at their disposal a financial tool that will help them become entrepreneurs, or be part of a change, but progressive, where then perhaps El Salvador can say that it was the first country that left behind the US dollar and that in that process bitcoin is the new Colon.
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I am not Salvadoran, but I am sure that in this process that is just beginning, the "Salvador" dream will also begin to become legal in El Salvador.

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August 26, 2022, 08:56:24 PM
Merited by Halab (2), JayJuanGee (1), NotATether (1)
 #183

BTC is in parallel with the US dollar there right?

So they can still use good ol USD there correct? So what failed? If you don't want use it, don't.

I thought the push was to help the unbanked. To allow people to receive funds from relatives at a distance such as the US and abroad. Western Union fee's are horrendous.

The amount of BTC  in the countries coffers is a fraction, he didn't bet the farm.

The only loss is see they held him up for ransom for that 1.3bil "loan". The strings that bind and strangle.
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August 26, 2022, 09:31:13 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #184

What defines it to be failed, is the people that stop using Chivo Wallet after making use of the few dollars available on signup. The postpone of bonds without any proper time schedule, or the statistical data that is being collected by different universities. The president have taken a decision on behalf of his citizens. There were criticism, hatred, opposition and protests. What finally happened, the country have turned to be the first to adopt bitcoin. Further it have experiencing the bear market which isn't predicted to happen for now. Just on this we can't conclude the decrease in the value of holding as a failure. It is a learning for them to prepare for the worse in all time period to reap profit. Until the holdings are sold for a loss, we can't term this to be a failure.

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August 28, 2022, 09:47:40 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #185

Show me a perfect economy or country in the world and everyone will be free to live in there, i saw a publication that state all the prominent countries with debt in their numbers, can you imagine that UK, US, china and some other well recognized countries all form the list, then someone asked, if all these countries could be in debts, who is now their lender or creditor?, Enough of saying all manners of talk about El-Savador and its bitcoin adoption, other countries that failed to do so have nothing to show forth, we need to understand that El-Savador adopted bitcoin and not altcoin, that's it decision while other should learn or remain mute about it decision, even if there's a change in power, as long as bitcoin remains, El-Savador will always have it a legal tender.

This is his decision, no one argues. I even suspect what caused such a decision, but it did not work out, since the venture with bitcoin bonds did not gain due demand from investors and the desired billion dollars of investment did not work out. The problem is not that El Salvador accepted bitcoin despite further persuasion from the International Monetary Fund to abandon this idea to count on another bailout. The problem is the high expectations of the community and the blind admiration for this event in style: look, El Salvador has accepted bitcoin as a means of payment, it's so cool. And in practice, besides applause, what do we have? Nothing, even the installation of ATMs affects the adoption of bitcoin better than this law adopted in El Salvador. The news has been inflated to such a degree that this Salvadoran law does not correspond. Look at how the community received the news about the recognition of bitcoin in the Swiss city of Lugano. Who remembers him now and admires him? Virtually no one. And what are the cardinal differences in the degree of Bitcoin adoption between Lugano and El Salvador? Yes, almost none, I think, just the Salvadoran adoption was inflated because it was the first, and the fact that, from a practical point of view, it does not have such a scale and greatness as mention of it and admiration, few people care.

In short, what I generally talk about in this topic and in general on the entire forum about the situation with El Salvador is that big mentions of it do not correspond to the level of adoption that takes place in this country. The community overestimates this adoption and talks about it.
@Ratimov I understand the point you are trying to emphasize here and you have clearly outlined the points behind your decisions, but also note, even though the news of El Salvador Bitcoin adoption is over-celebrated by the community without adequate attention being paid to the impact of this Bitcoin adoption on the overall Bitcoin market behavior and how the IMF has kicked against this El Salvador move to adopt Bitcoin which is the measure reason why the bitcoin bound project could not fly since the external contributor did not find the project worthy and stable enough to invest such huge capital on, because of the uncertainty of the future Bitcoin market condition and lack of consistency in Bitcoin price which could not be practically projected for a capital project. That is the international monetary funds/(IMF) view anyways.
Now the point am trying to make is, that even though El Salvador is passive by many to have taken a wrong decision on Bitcoin adoption, emphasis should be ace on the long-term advantage of this decision on the Economic production of El Salvador, with the growth of Bitcoin in that country a lot of other sectors we develop along with it, take for instance the Bitcoin city which was made to be one of the biggest Bitcoin development in that country will Foster a lot of economic activities that will generate both direct and indirect jobs for the citizens, and the power sector will greatly improve because the volcano will become the major source of power to the Bitcoin city and if their capacity of electricity generation increase along the way the power sector in El Salvador will also benefit from the klw of electricity generated from the volcano.
We should give some time for El Salvador to put the dots together and figure out ways to develop their master plan and I know for sure in the next coming year we will have a lot of verifiable data to base our analysis on and then we can figure out what direction this whole thing is heading either negative or positive.
What I fear most is the continuity of this project after this present administration and what becomes of Bitcoin in El Salvador after Nayib Bukele leaves office will the next president be a Bitcoin fan or will he have a dark spot for Bitcoin, this is my most worries at the moment.



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August 28, 2022, 10:53:36 PM
 #186

It may be best we wait until the next bull run before coming to such a conclusion of failure. These things take time and it's easy to deem "failure" in a down market.  Funny how tunes on El Salvador will change when the crypto market is on fire again.

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August 29, 2022, 01:19:07 AM
 #187

What defines it to be failed, is the people that stop using Chivo Wallet after making use of the few dollars available on signup. The postpone of bonds without any proper time schedule, or the statistical data that is being collected by different universities. The president have taken a decision on behalf of his citizens. There were criticism, hatred, opposition and protests. What finally happened, the country have turned to be the first to adopt bitcoin. Further it have experiencing the bear market which isn't predicted to happen for now. Just on this we can't conclude the decrease in the value of holding as a failure. It is a learning for them to prepare for the worse in all time period to reap profit. Until the holdings are sold for a loss, we can't term this to be a failure.

It was a bad thing to reward users of the Chivo wallet without encouraging their participation on the BTC blockchain. The government should've rolled out rewards at a slow and steady pace to help motivate people to keep using the Chivo wallet. Besides, not many people within the country knows what Bitcoin is or how it works. This was just an early move from El Salvador that's bound to failure within the short term. We're going to have to see if adoption for BTC in El Salvador will increase in the future as the market turns bullish. The government already approved Bitcoin as a legal means of payment so the sky's the limit to how far the cryptocurrency will go in terms of mainstream adoption by businesses and individuals alike.

So far, El Salvador hasn't sold a single Bitcoin, so it has every chance to win once the market explodes again. Who knows if government's "smart move" turns El Salvador into a developed country within the not-so-distant future? Just my thoughts Grin

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August 29, 2022, 01:28:22 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), NotATether (1)
 #188

It has not failed, though it appears adoption is slow everybody has access to the Chivo wallet and can spend at Super Selectos, Simon and other large chains. Individuals also accept it, but you do not see ... such as services rendered from the US (gardening, medical, cleaning). There was more than $50M in remittances in the past year.

A major problem is that most do not understand "not your keys? not your coins." In fact, it appears as though many of the $LBTC transactions may actually be Chivo-to-Chivo because I have tried paying two separate parties with Lightning and it did not work. I even tried both implementations and paid the $4 watchtower fee. It's a little concerning that the government holds all of the keys on an exchange in Mexico called Bitso.

But the cool thing is they can accept from any BTC wallet and send to any BTC wallet. Plus, it is ONLY BITCOIN - which is huge. That drops everything else out of the equation and they are building legal securities infrastructure (with the help of Simon Dixon and Blockstream) on top of Bitcoin.

Have a good day. And, please, visit the eastern part of El Salvador ... a place called Tropico Inn at El Cuco is a local favorite for those living in San Miguel (the largest city near to where Bitcoin City is slated to be.) Come visit the east not just San Salvador and drive via Usulutan not San Vicente, it's faster. I have an Airbnb if anyone is interested.
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ESG, KYC & AML are attack vectors on Bitcoin


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August 29, 2022, 02:10:20 AM
 #189

What defines it to be failed, is the people that stop using Chivo Wallet after making use of the few dollars available on signup. The postpone of bonds without any proper time schedule, or the statistical data that is being collected by different universities. The president have taken a decision on behalf of his citizens. There were criticism, hatred, opposition and protests. What finally happened, the country have turned to be the first to adopt bitcoin. Further it have experiencing the bear market which isn't predicted to happen for now. Just on this we can't conclude the decrease in the value of holding as a failure. It is a learning for them to prepare for the worse in all time period to reap profit. Until the holdings are sold for a loss, we can't term this to be a failure.

It was a bad thing to reward users of the Chivo wallet without encouraging their participation on the BTC blockchain. The government should've rolled out rewards at a slow and steady pace to help motivate people to keep using the Chivo wallet. Besides, not many people within the country knows what Bitcoin is or how it works. This was just an early move from El Salvador that's bound to failure within the short term.

Do you believe that the El Salvador government blew its whole wadd merely because it gave a $30 credit to each of it's citizens in the Chivo wallet?

Do you know if they are not going to issue another credit ?  similar amount?  smaller amount?  How do you know that the issuance of one time was a failure in terms of getting some citizen's aware of bitcoin and maybe they can change the next issuance, in the event that they make another issuance, no?

We're going to have to see if adoption for BTC in El Salvador will increase in the future as the market turns bullish.

So you are concluding that adoption is currently not good?  Are you concluding that some citizens are not benefiting by using and transmitting in bitcoin, including receiving remittances into El Salvador with low fees and without having to worry about the government being hostile to their bitcoin related activities?

The government already approved Bitcoin as a legal means of payment so the sky's the limit to how far the cryptocurrency will go in terms of mainstream adoption by businesses and individuals alike.

And, I doubt that we have all the data in regards to the various ways that people and businesses are increasingly getting used to bitcoin and also increasingly using it.

So far, El Salvador hasn't sold a single Bitcoin, so it has every chance to win once the market explodes again. Who knows if government's "smart move" turns El Salvador into a developed country within the not-so-distant future? Just my thoughts Grin

Overall it seems the amount of bitcoin that they bought is really not a whole hell of a lot, relative to the other kinds of holdings that they have.  

It has not failed, though it appears adoption is slow everybody has access to the Chivo wallet and can spend at Super Selectos, Simon and other large chains. Individuals also accept it, but you do not see ... such as services rendered from the US (gardening, medical, cleaning). There was more than $50M in remittances in the past year.

A major problem is that most do not understand "not your keys? not your coins." In fact, it appears as though many of the $LBTC transactions may actually be Chivo-to-Chivo because I have tried paying two separate parties with Lightning and it did not work. I even tried both implementations and paid the $4 watchtower fee. It's a little concerning that the government holds all of the keys on an exchange in Mexico called Bitso.

But the cool thing is they can accept from any BTC wallet and send to any BTC wallet. Plus, it is ONLY BITCOIN - which is huge. That drops everything else out of the equation and they are building legal securities infrastructure (with the help of Simon Dixon and Blockstream) on top of Bitcoin.

Have a good day. And, please, visit the eastern part of El Salvador ... a place called Tropico Inn at El Cuco is a local favorite for those living in San Miguel (the largest city near to where Bitcoin City is slated to be.) Come visit the east not just San Salvador and drive via Usulutan not San Vicente, it's faster. I have an Airbnb if anyone is interested.

It is nice to be able to hear on the ground reports, and if you can see some of the changes in usage on the ground as they are taking place.. I thought that Strike was also popular in El Salvador, but yeah maybe there are some difficulties in terms of transacting between different wallets.. I personally have not even used the lightning network yet, and I have been thinking about trying out Blue Wallet, Muun and/or Breeze.  Those are wallets that allow the use of either on chain bitcoin transactions or transactions on the lighting network.. but sure they are custody wallets too from my understanding.  I wonder if any El Salvadoreans are using any of those wallets?

Regarding your AirBnb.. I would imagine that there is more demand for various hotels and Airbnb, and there might be some locations in which balances of availability, prices and even features are being figured out if you are getting more foreigners traveling to El Salvador and people are figuring out how to set up their AirBnbs to try to get them filled at a price that they believe is profitable, too...

Of course, we have to deal with ESG, KYC & AML, but each of them are attack vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
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August 29, 2022, 06:59:50 AM
 #190

I think the biggest problem for El Salvador was the timing when they adopted Bitcoins as their national currency. In September 2021 the world was still in order and everybody believed that Bitcoin will keep rising. Nobody expected a major war in Europe again that would send the world in an inflation spiral and crush world economic growth. The Bitcoin price dropped in the one year 60% which has a huge impact on the value of the national holdings of El Salvador. The government argues that this is only a short term correction and as long as they are not selling the will not realise any loss. The big problem in my opinion is that the government is becoming more harsh in their effort to silence opposition and trying to stop people from speaking out against bitcoins. This is wrong and contradicts the principles of crypto currencies, which try to increase financial freedom and independence, and should not be used against the own citizens. And then there is the IMF who is controlled by USD and will not help El Salvador as long as they use Bitcoin as their national currency. I hope for the Bitcoin project to succeed in El Salvador, but not at any cost. If the civil unrest keeps increasing they might need to find a compromise to give into the protests. Completely abandoning Bitcoins and selling all coins at the current price seems like the worst decision El Salvador could make, it might take another year but eventually the Bitcoin price is going to recover.

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ESG, KYC & AML are attack vectors on Bitcoin


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August 29, 2022, 07:33:51 AM
 #191

I think the biggest problem for El Salvador was the timing when they adopted Bitcoins as their national currency. In September 2021 the world was still in order and everybody believed that Bitcoin will keep rising. Nobody expected a major war in Europe again that would send the world in an inflation spiral and crush world economic growth. The Bitcoin price dropped in the one year 60% which has a huge impact on the value of the national holdings of El Salvador. The government argues that this is only a short term correction and as long as they are not selling the will not realise any loss. The big problem in my opinion is that the government is becoming more harsh in their effort to silence opposition and trying to stop people from speaking out against bitcoins. This is wrong and contradicts the principles of crypto currencies, which try to increase financial freedom and independence, and should not be used against the own citizens. And then there is the IMF who is controlled by USD and will not help El Salvador as long as they use Bitcoin as their national currency. I hope for the Bitcoin project to succeed in El Salvador, but not at any cost. If the civil unrest keeps increasing they might need to find a compromise to give into the protests. Completely abandoning Bitcoins and selling all coins at the current price seems like the worst decision El Salvador could make, it might take another year but eventually the Bitcoin price is going to recover.

What is your evidence that there is any increases in bitcoin protests in El Salvador in respect to bitcoin as compared with other reasons that there might just be regular protests in any country related to a variety of issues. 

Furthermore what is your evidence that El Salvador is cracking down on bitcoin protests in any way that is more substantial than any other protests to the extent that there may even be any reason to "crack down" on any protests, bitcoin or otherwise?

Of course, we have to deal with ESG, KYC & AML, but each of them are attack vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
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August 30, 2022, 12:27:21 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (2), NotATether (1)
 #192

I thought that Strike was also popular in El Salvador, ...

Jack Maller was involved in getting BTC adopted as legal tender. But NOBODY uses strike nor do they hold their own keys.  

I personally have not even used the lightning network ... but sure they are custody wallets too from my understanding.

Yes. It is difficult to setup. To custody your own watchtower you need to (a) fund it and (b) have other people fund it. It tends toward money transmitters like Bitfinex who have the most liquid channels. I had to give my keys to two other organizations to try to pay my Internet bill over $LBTC. Neither worked and I paid $10 in fees to add and remove from their watchtower.

I wonder if any El Salvadoreans are using any of those wallets?


No. There is not one Lightning channel in El Salvador; it appears the closest are in Mexico and Panama: https://explorer.acinq.co/

Everyone uses the "Chivo" wallet, which is sort of like Tik-Tok biometrics meets WeChatPay in China. There is an option to pay with Lightning but there is no verification. I am convinced what they call Lightning is simply a database on the Bitso exchange. Chivo is the only regulated way to buy Bitcoin in El Salvador. There were a few BTM providers at popular spots, but the government took over the BTM business by placing them all over the country and adding a 2% spread. You need to have a +503 (Salvadoran) phone number, DUI (their state ID) or passport registered with the government to buy Bitcoin from Chivo vending machines (BTMs). Signs at stores says, "Chivo accepted here" not "Bitcoin accepted here," except Pizza Hut which prices in satoshis.

Very few understand keys, blockchain or fees. Most receive Bitcoin and immediately convert it to $USD. I hope it changes, poco a poco.

Regarding your AirBnb.. I would imagine that there is more demand for various hotels and Airbnb.

Yes, there are MANY more AirBnbs offered.

I'll keep trying to educate my friends on the difference between a government database and Bitcoin. It's a slow go. People will eventually catch on (when they have a Chivo wallet frozen). While SV (El Salvador) has its issues in implementation, it is f***ing sweet to have as legal tender. It makes life so much easier on many fronts.
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August 30, 2022, 12:55:40 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (2)
 #193

The Bitcoin price dropped in the one year 60% which has a huge impact on the value of the national holdings of El Salvador.
1BTC = 1BTC; they have the same amount of Bitcoin. But, yes, people still believe in soft fiat money.

The big problem in my opinion is that the government is becoming more harsh in their effort to silence opposition and trying to stop people from speaking out against bitcoins.
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I have not seen that. I have only seen a few protests in the capital ... it's mostly farmers who want seeds and fertilizer. Oh, and the media. They are negative on Bitcoin. But they are mostly negative on anything the government does.
 
And then there is the IMF who is controlled by USD and will not help El Salvador as long as they use Bitcoin as their national currency.
They have two national legal tenders: $USD and $BTC. Puts the $USD cartel, established by A. Lincoln in the 1863 and 1864 Banking Acts, in a difficult position. It's funny. But the fun part is that SV (El Salvador) is building securities law around Bitcoin. So, it is trending toward the direction of all securities "permitted" in El Salvador need to be on Bitcoin. You cannot, for example, live on dividends from investments on a US exchange ... hence, the need for Bitcoin. People shit on El Salvador. I've even had hundreds stolen from me (likely from the FinCEN) in transmission.

If the civil unrest keeps increasing they might need to find a compromise to give into the protests.
What are you talking about? The protests were in 2021. The biggest danger is that Bukele changes the Constitution, so he can remain in power beyond 5 years. He has like an 80% approval rating, so many are likely to support it. He showed up in the Legislature, during session, with the military and surrounded the place. After that, there were talks of changing the Constitution but it has all been in secret. If changes were made to the Constitution, nobody yet knows.




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August 30, 2022, 01:57:55 AM
 #194

It may be best we wait until the next bull run before coming to such a conclusion of failure. These things take time and it's easy to deem "failure" in a down market.  Funny how tunes on El Salvador will change when the crypto market is on fire again.
It is almost a year after bitcoin was officially declared a legal currency, but the country of El Salvador has not been able to improve their country's economic situation, most likely it is true as you said maybe they still need time to wait for the next increase, because the price of bitcoin is now falling much differently with the price that nayeb bukele bought when legalizing bitcoin in 2021 last year, although many say bitcoin adoption failed in El Salvador, opinion polls show that there are still very many people who support nayeb bukele..

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August 30, 2022, 09:05:34 AM
Merited by DdmrDdmr (2)
 #195

I thought that Strike was also popular in El Salvador, ...
Jack Maller was involved in getting BTC adopted as legal tender. But NOBODY uses strike nor do they hold their own keys.  
I personally have not even used the lightning network ... but sure they are custody wallets too from my understanding.
Yes. It is difficult to setup. To custody your own watchtower you need to (a) fund it and (b) have other people fund it. It tends toward money transmitters like Bitfinex who have the most liquid channels. I had to give my keys to two other organizations to try to pay my Internet bill over $LBTC. Neither worked and I paid $10 in fees to add and remove from their watchtower.
I wonder if any El Salvadoreans are using any of those wallets?
No. There is not one Lightning channel in El Salvador; it appears the closest are in Mexico and Panama: https://explorer.acinq.co/
Everyone uses the "Chivo" wallet, which is sort of like Tik-Tok biometrics meets WeChatPay in China. There is an option to pay with Lightning but there is no verification. I am convinced what they call Lightning is simply a database on the Bitso exchange. Chivo is the only regulated way to buy Bitcoin in El Salvador. There were a few BTM providers at popular spots, but the government took over the BTM business by placing them all over the country and adding a 2% spread. You need to have a +503 (Salvadoran) phone number, DUI (their state ID) or passport registered with the government to buy Bitcoin from Chivo vending machines (BTMs). Signs at stores says, "Chivo accepted here" not "Bitcoin accepted here," except Pizza Hut which prices in satoshis.

Very few understand keys, blockchain or fees. Most receive Bitcoin and immediately convert it to $USD. I hope it changes, poco a poco.
Regarding your AirBnb.. I would imagine that there is more demand for various hotels and Airbnb.
Yes, there are MANY more AirBnbs offered.

I'll keep trying to educate my friends on the difference between a government database and Bitcoin. It's a slow go. People will eventually catch on (when they have a Chivo wallet frozen). While SV (El Salvador) has its issues in implementation, it is f***ing sweet to have as legal tender. It makes life so much easier on many fronts.

For sure, if you have boots on the ground in El Salvador, then you will have more ideas regarding some of the various ways that bitcoin is being used there, and I would imagine that there are some locations that have more bitcoin related businesses than other locations - so surely it is not going to spread evenly throughout the country.  

Many of us likely heard of Bitcoin Beach in El Zonte.. so I supposed the capital of San Salvador might be another possible place where spread of bitcoin related transactional options increase, and surely there could be some ways that people are interacting that you do not know about such as using Local Bitcoins or Paxful.. and like I said if they are transacting wallet to wallet using Blue wallet, Breeze, Muun or some other wallets that would allow for direct interaction between bitcoin users using the lightning network or other kinds of on chain bitcoin wallets.    Bitrawr lists 6 different exchanges in El Salvador if that information might have some correctness.

I had heard that there are some bitcoin-friendly areas forming around bitcoin lake in Guatemala and another one in some cities in Honduras that has been dubbed as Bitcoin valley (link 1, link 2), and then apparently Honduras also has a Special economic zone for bitcoin on what seems to be a private Island so surely there could be circles of bitcoin users that you do not really know about but those circle of users may well be making efforts and progress in terms of expanding outwardly, too.. and maybe it is not widely know which wallets or ways of transacting might be used in each location or if some of the hype about various available transacting abilities might be overblown as compared with what can be seen to be happening on the ground.

If the civil unrest keeps increasing they might need to find a compromise to give into the protests.
What are you talking about? The protests were in 2021. The biggest danger is that Bukele changes the Constitution, so he can remain in power beyond 5 years. He has like an 80% approval rating, so many are likely to support it. He showed up in the Legislature, during session, with the military and surrounded the place. After that, there were talks of changing the Constitution but it has all been in secret. If changes were made to the Constitution, nobody yet knows.

My understanding was that there was some ambiguity in the language of the El Salvador Constitution, so sometimes there can be a reinterpretation of already existing constitutional language or like you said another possibility might be to change the language (which also might be framed as a clarification of language that is already there).  I could attempt to find a newer source, but this article from last year seems to describe that there already is an ability for Bukele to run again in 2024.

It may be best we wait until the next bull run before coming to such a conclusion of failure. These things take time and it's easy to deem "failure" in a down market.  Funny how tunes on El Salvador will change when the crypto market is on fire again.
It is almost a year after bitcoin was officially declared a legal currency, but the country of El Salvador has not been able to improve their country's economic situation, most likely it is true as you said maybe they still need time to wait for the next increase, because the price of bitcoin is now falling much differently with the price that nayeb bukele bought when legalizing bitcoin in 2021 last year, although many say bitcoin adoption failed in El Salvador, opinion polls show that there are still very many people who support nayeb bukele..

Do you have evidence to either show that El Salvador's economic condition has not been improved in the last year or at least that it is not worse off as compared with other countries of similar stature who had not adopted bitcoin.. so even if El Salvador happens to be worse off economically this year as compared to last year, do you have evidence connecting that to bitcoin, besides "other people saying that" in their wishful-thinking kind of way?

Of course, we have to deal with ESG, KYC & AML, but each of them are attack vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
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August 30, 2022, 09:32:53 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #196

What made Bitcoin currency and wealth protecting asset is people themselves. Not states or governments. El Salvador is obviously good experiment for Bitcoin adoption but in the end it's all about people that wanna use it or not. In my country (which is Türkiye) people get used to Bitcoin usage because inflation is so high and Bitcoin is nice option to protect yourself. Its also nice option to do exchange money.

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August 30, 2022, 09:53:29 AM
 #197

What made Bitcoin currency and wealth protecting asset is people themselves. Not states or governments. El Salvador is obviously good experiment for Bitcoin adoption but in the end it's all about people that wanna use it or not. In my country (which is Türkiye) people get used to Bitcoin usage because inflation is so high and Bitcoin is nice option to protect yourself. Its also nice option to do exchange money.

I largely agree with you that governments do not matter as much as people matter, but the dynamics of any area can change through the actions of governments in terms of either promoting something or making a hostile environment, or alternatively the government could attempt to remain somewhat neutral, too.

So government action and interaction can surely affect the atmosphere for something like bitcoin even if they might not exactly be able to stop bitcoin, but they could make lives miserable or pleasurable in relation to something like bitcoin, and surely sometimes, it irritates me a bit to project the governments as if they are a hostile force to the people, and so even if a lot of us have various periods of being bitter towards governments and governmental power, they are not necessarily any kind of force that applies the same in each location, even if frequently we might find circumstances in which a government might start out seeming to be on the side of the people but then morph into something that no longer seems to be serving the interests of the people but instead the interests of some smaller groups that might have coopted some aspects of the government (or sometimes seeming to have had coopted all of the things and then confidence will be lost in some of those circumstances, too).. 

Of course, we have to deal with ESG, KYC & AML, but each of them are attack vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
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August 30, 2022, 05:49:48 PM
 #198

This is his decision, no one argues. I even suspect what caused such a decision, but it did not work out, since the venture with bitcoin bonds did not gain due demand from investors and the desired billion dollars of investment did not work out. The problem is not that El Salvador accepted bitcoin despite further persuasion from the International Monetary Fund to abandon this idea to count on another bailout. The problem is the high expectations of the community and the blind admiration for this event in style: look, El Salvador has accepted bitcoin as a means of payment, it's so cool. And in practice, besides applause, what do we have? Nothing, even
@Ratimov I understand the point you are trying to emphasize here and you have clearly outlined the points behind your decisions, but also note, even though the news of El Salvador Bitcoin adoption is over-celebrated by the community without adequate attention being paid to the impact of this Bitcoin adoption on the overall Bitcoin market behavior and how the IMF has kicked against this El Salvador move to adopt Bitcoin which is the measure reason why the bitcoin bound project could not fly since the external contributor did not find the project worthy and stable enough to invest such huge capital on, because of the uncertainty of the future Bitcoin market condition and lack of consistency in Bitcoin price which could not be practically projected for a capital project. That is the international monetary funds/(IMF) view anyways.
Now the point am trying to make is, that even though El Salvador is passive by many to have taken a wrong decision on Bitcoin adoption, emphasis should be ace on the long-term advantage of this decision on the Economic production of El Salvador, with the growth of Bitcoin in that country a lot of other sectors we develop along with it, take for instance the Bitcoin city which was made to be one of the biggest Bitcoin development in that country will Foster a lot of economic activities that will generate both direct and indirect jobs for the citizens, and the power sector will greatly improve because the volcano will become the major source of power to the Bitcoin city and if their capacity of electricity generation increase along the way the power sector in El Salvador will also benefit from the klw of electricity generated from the volcano.
We should give some time for El Salvador to put the dots together and figure out ways to develop their master plan and I know for sure in the next coming year we will have a lot of verifiable data to base our analysis on and then we can figure out what direction this whole thing is heading either negative or positive.
What I fear most is the continuity of this project after this present administration and what becomes of Bitcoin in El Salvador after Nayib Bukele leaves office will the next president be a Bitcoin fan or will he have a dark spot for Bitcoin, this is my most worries at the moment.


What makes you think that this project will be implemented at all? Just because the president of El Salvador promises it? Doubtful argument. This can still remain at the level of promises, or then it turns out that this project is not expedient or something like that, as was the case with bitcoin bonds. El Salvador and its government are voicing ideas that are sometimes not economically feasible and therefore do not find due interest among investors. Bitcoin city may turn out to be the same project as Bitcoin bonds. Why do I also think that mentions of El Salvador are not commensurate with the adoption they bring to the crypto community? Look at the countries of Africa, they do much more for adoption than El Salvador. People use it because they themselves see it as a benefit, instead of their national currencies and local banking systems. There is a huge number of bitcoin users who do not even have normal smartphones and Internet access, but they still use bitcoin in GSM networks. Many different startups are emerging that help use bitcoin as a means of transferring value between countries, buying food, accessing foreign goods, and much more. According to some reports, the number of crypto users in Africa has approached 54 million.

Here it is, a real adoption, without any theatrical performances showing the number of downloads, without this clownery with a bitcoin city, which will live only on a mock-up for a long time and it’s not a fact that it will be released in full scale, without any investment in bitcoin bonds. The people of Africa themselves have come to the conclusion that bitcoin solves their daily problems and they want to use it, in contrast to El Salvador, where the president said: Dear citizens, let me introduce a new means of payment. And the citizens answered him: well, why the fuck do we need it, your bitcoin?

This is the difference between a real adoption and a circus performance from El Salvador, which is joyfully and blindly applauded by a huge part of the community.

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August 30, 2022, 08:29:49 PM
 #199

This is his decision, no one argues. I even suspect what caused such a decision, but it did not work out, since the venture with bitcoin bonds did not gain due demand from investors and the desired billion dollars of investment did not work out. The problem is not that El Salvador accepted bitcoin despite further persuasion from the International Monetary Fund to abandon this idea to count on another bailout. The problem is the high expectations of the community and the blind admiration for this event in style: look, El Salvador has accepted bitcoin as a means of payment, it's so cool. And in practice, besides applause, what do we have? Nothing, even
@Ratimov I understand the point you are trying to emphasize here and you have clearly outlined the points behind your decisions, but also note, even though the news of El Salvador Bitcoin adoption is over-celebrated by the community without adequate attention being paid to the impact of this Bitcoin adoption on the overall Bitcoin market behavior and how the IMF has kicked against this El Salvador move to adopt Bitcoin which is the measure reason why the bitcoin bound project could not fly since the external contributor did not find the project worthy and stable enough to invest such huge capital on, because of the uncertainty of the future Bitcoin market condition and lack of consistency in Bitcoin price which could not be practically projected for a capital project. That is the international monetary funds/(IMF) view anyways.
Now the point am trying to make is, that even though El Salvador is passive by many to have taken a wrong decision on Bitcoin adoption, emphasis should be ace on the long-term advantage of this decision on the Economic production of El Salvador, with the growth of Bitcoin in that country a lot of other sectors we develop along with it, take for instance the Bitcoin city which was made to be one of the biggest Bitcoin development in that country will Foster a lot of economic activities that will generate both direct and indirect jobs for the citizens, and the power sector will greatly improve because the volcano will become the major source of power to the Bitcoin city and if their capacity of electricity generation increase along the way the power sector in El Salvador will also benefit from the klw of electricity generated from the volcano.
We should give some time for El Salvador to put the dots together and figure out ways to develop their master plan and I know for sure in the next coming year we will have a lot of verifiable data to base our analysis on and then we can figure out what direction this whole thing is heading either negative or positive.
What I fear most is the continuity of this project after this present administration and what becomes of Bitcoin in El Salvador after Nayib Bukele leaves office will the next president be a Bitcoin fan or will he have a dark spot for Bitcoin, this is my most worries at the moment.
What makes you think that this project will be implemented at all? Just because the president of El Salvador promises it? Doubtful argument. This can still remain at the level of promises, or then it turns out that this project is not expedient or something like that, as was the case with bitcoin bonds. El Salvador and its government are voicing ideas that are sometimes not economically feasible and therefore do not find due interest among investors. Bitcoin city may turn out to be the same project as Bitcoin bonds. Why do I also think that mentions of El Salvador are not commensurate with the adoption they bring to the crypto community? Look at the countries of Africa, they do much more for adoption than El Salvador. People use it because they themselves see it as a benefit, instead of their national currencies and local banking systems. There is a huge number of bitcoin users who do not even have normal smartphones and Internet access, but they still use bitcoin in GSM networks. Many different startups are emerging that help use bitcoin as a means of transferring value between countries, buying food, accessing foreign goods, and much more. According to some reports, the number of crypto users in Africa has approached 54 million.

Here it is, a real adoption, without any theatrical performances showing the number of downloads, without this clownery with a bitcoin city, which will live only on a mock-up for a long time and it’s not a fact that it will be released in full scale, without any investment in bitcoin bonds. The people of Africa themselves have come to the conclusion that bitcoin solves their daily problems and they want to use it, in contrast to El Salvador, where the president said: Dear citizens, let me introduce a new means of payment. And the citizens answered him: well, why the fuck do we need it, your bitcoin?

This is the difference between a real adoption and a circus performance from El Salvador, which is joyfully and blindly applauded by a huge part of the community.

First I have quite a few doubts whether your renditions of facts are very accurate in regards to bitcoin being rejected by El Salvadorean citizens - and Bukele and other government representatives have quite a bit of discretion regarding various ways forward that they want to go in the government, and it seems that Bukele remains pretty popular in El Salvador.. so it is difficult to understand why you want to be fighting those kinds of on the ground facts.

Second, I wonder why you seem so hostile towards bitcoiners appreciating the various efforts that are being made in bitcoin, and to continue to argue that bitcoiners are blindly following some kind of a disingenuine scheme in bitcoin, when the facts also don't seem to support those kinds of accusations either.  There tend to be a lot of bullshit framing of arguments to be proclaiming that bitcoiners are some kind of a homogenous community that agree on x, y and z... which surely is bullshit since it has tendencies to imply that bitcoin has varying centralizing tendencies.. which are also not implications supported by actual evidence..

Regarding your compare and contrast of various on the grounds and grass roots efforts on the ground in various places in Africa, none of those are necessarily preferable, even though they seem to be working quite well as you suggest - and in the end bitcoin is going to have pushes that come from all directions, and the mere fact that El Salvador is promoting bitcoin in El Salvador does not necessarily mean that on the ground efforts are not also informing El Salvador's approach to attempting to create bitcoin friendly policies.  

Surely, if you amorphously refer to Africa, then you seem to be either avoiding talking about various governmental efforts or you are trying to minimize various governmental efforts, and surely many of us following the bitcoin space realize that Nigeria is frequently pointed out as one of the highest of bitcoin adoption countries in spite of their government seeming to fight against bitcoin in a variety of ways, so sure there are likely a decent number of valid points to suggest that bitcoin adoption can take place in a variety of ways, and I have quite a few doubts in accepting your El Salvador bashing framework that wants to suggest that bitcoin is ONLY stronger if it grows in a hostile environment.. when your analysis seems incomplete at best when you are seeming to want to make battle out the ideas and to impose what you believe to be better or worse, when both ways can exist at the same time and they do exist at the same time, and whether these kinds of various systems end up merging and converging or creating separate systems that compete.  The idea of good ideas coming together is referred to as Schelling point, so we have those kinds of things going on at the same time in which the good ideas will end up emerging, but they are not going to come together until time passes and systems bump up against each other  (also Nash equilibriums play out too).

It seems to me that in the shorter term there are going to be a whole hell of a lot of ways that bitcoin builds and develops, and likely in the longer run a lot of the systems will merge and converge, and the free-er the market of ideas, the more free and easy it should be to recognize various better systems to beat out the lesser systems - but in the earlier stages of growth there is likely going to be a lot of variations in terms of better and worse attributes, and yet even in that regard, it seems illogical to be proclaiming that systems in Africa are superior to El Salvador's adoption - even if you personally have that opinion.

There is some validity to the thrust of your points that frequently governments overpromise and under deliver, and I doubt anyone would be proclaiming that Bukele would be exempt from those kinds of claims that do not end up materializing, but you seem to be quite inclined to point out the so many ways that Bukele is less then genuine in his assertions - so from your point of view Bukele is largely engaged in spinning matters in ways that he is not going to be able to carry out.. and then you also want to proclaim that bitcoiners just fall in line with whatever he says.  Personally, I am not very inclined towards worshiping governments or even leaders, but Bukele has gained a lot of popularity because he has been working to achieve matters that he proclaims to want to do, and I have my doubt that he is even as close as disingenuine that you seem to ongoingly want to paint him.  For some reason, it's like no matter what you are wanting to see the negative and maintain high levels of skepticism that do not really seem warranted - even though we are seeing that modifications of plans are being made along the way and sometimes the proclamations regarding what is achievable seem to be a bit much, too.. so for me, even though modifications have come to these projects, I have difficulties concluding that Bukele and his people were being disingenuine in setting those various targets to aim for.

Of course, we have to deal with ESG, KYC & AML, but each of them are attack vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
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ESG, KYC & AML are attack vectors on Bitcoin


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August 30, 2022, 08:54:49 PM
 #200

Accept your country's currency as much as you want. If countries and people with strong economies do not support this currency and you, this system will not work. He tried to find a solution to the bad economy, but unfortunately it did not give any results.

Hypothetically, let's say that Bukele is able to run again and gets reelected in 2024 for another 5 years, then at what point is he going to give up upon bitcoin?  Prior to 2029?   Is he going to fail before the 2024 election?

Be more specific with your criticism and your prediction rather than just spouting out nonsense conclusory statements that have little to no reference in terms of what you are predicting or even the timeline for such, except El Salvador's inevitable failure in regards to its bitcoin adoption - or maybe you want to hedge your bets and proclaim that El Salvador will fail in its bitcoin adoption in the next 50 years.. before 2070-ish..

In other words, give more specifics.. otherwise you are speaking nonspecific conclusory nonsense.

Of course, we have to deal with ESG, KYC & AML, but each of them are attack vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
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