The Bitcoin Paradox - a Simple Online Scam Honored as Deity

[so98nn]

But in reality, fiat money is a debt-based asset. Numbers, on the other hand, just represent asset quantity.  Meaning, when people hold banknotes or deposits, the borrowers owe them economic benefits in the form of goods, services and labor. The holders invested these benefits in banknotes or deposits, that were put in circulation with loans. And that is why, borrowers are forced (via mortgages and other liens) to trade goods, services or labor with the holders, to be able to repay the loans.

Bitcoin is mined, miners use the energy, miners pay the electricity bills, miners do the proof of work to embed the transactions on blockchain. Mined coins are used in monetary system for the circulation, that includes trading, lending, staking, exchange of different coins using bitcoin and even withdrawing that money to the bank account.

This is where the bitcoin world is merged / linked with the real world banking system and therefore I see no difference in using bitcoin or fiat?

Though I read through the arguments up here, I just could not resist but had to explain how I look at the bitcoin and how its not a "paradox". Peeps became 10 year old trying to explain themselves the bitcoin bubble which will burst soon but it was never a bubble and things are still pretty perfect.

[1714582308]

1714582308

[PrivacyG]

Bitcoin is a name. You, by having number in a system, are not able to show asset. For e.g, you by having number 1 attached to the addresses, compared to someone that has 0.0001, are not able to show a thousand times more zeros and ones in the system in your possession. Digital asset is zeros and ones. So you own no digital asset. You just have fake number that creates the illusion of asset quantity, as described in OP. Simply, you're the victim of a scam.

This makes me understand you know nothing about Bitcoin.  All you seem to 'know' comes from a false reality you made up yourself or believe in.  You keep saying Satoshi is scamming us out of our real assets.  Tell me, how does Satoshi steal and benefit from my Bitcoin?

You can do whatever you want. I am just telling you how things are.

So you choose to impose your mindset over ours.  When in history did that ever succeed first of all?  Also, can you imagine how this looks like from our side?

A scam is when the only possible way for you to benefit from your investment is from funds contributed by new investors. A legitimate business is when you can benefit from the asset you invested in, such as debt (fiat/bonds), equity, commodity, real estate, etc.

Now, answer me: how can you benefit from a number that you have next to your address without new investors voluntarily entering the Satoshi's system?

Easy.  Bitcoin is what now, $30,000?  Down from what, over $60,000?  Did investors leave when this drop happened?  You have to learn how market offers and demand work.  If you think Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, you got this wrong all the way.  Read the Whitepaper once, word by word, and you will know it is not.  But you rather choose to believe in a fantasy.

I provided you evidence that bitcoin is a scam system that creates the illusion of asset. You ignored all the evidences, and started to talk about irrelevant things. You're not even responding to the theme of the topic.

Quote the 'evidence', please.  I do not see any, just a conspiracy, unless I missed it all.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[Snowshow]

But in reality, fiat money is a debt-based asset. Numbers, on the other hand, just represent asset quantity.  Meaning, when people hold banknotes or deposits, the borrowers owe them economic benefits in the form of goods, services and labor. The holders invested these benefits in banknotes or deposits, that were put in circulation with loans. And that is why, borrowers are forced (via mortgages and other liens) to trade goods, services or labor with the holders, to be able to repay the loans.

Bitcoin is mined, miners use the energy, miners pay the electricity bills, miners do the proof of work to embed the transactions on blockchain. Mined coins are used in monetary system for the circulation, that includes trading, lending, staking, exchange of different coins using bitcoin and even withdrawing that money to the bank account.

This is where the bitcoin world is merged / linked with the real world banking system and therefore I see no difference in using bitcoin or fiat?

Though I read through the arguments up here, I just could not resist but had to explain how I look at the bitcoin and how its not a "paradox". Peeps became 10 year old trying to explain themselves the bitcoin bubble which will burst soon but it was never a bubble and things are still pretty perfect.

Sorry, but you're the victim of false narrative. Nothing is "mined". You invest electricity, which is real asset, and then, the units of Satoshi's imagined quantity are attributed to your address in order to create the illusion of some digital asset. But, as I already demonstrated, you own no asset. You, with for example "10" attributed, and someone with "0.0001" attributed are not different in the possession of zeros and ones in the system. And digital assets are of course composed of zeros and ones. It is literally unbelievable how you reject pure facts and keep defending the scammer and their scam.

[coolcoinz]

You have 1 subscriber on your youtube channel, OP, good job! I can see the message of hate is getting where it's supposed to.
Did you make all this effort to make an account here just to tell us how stupid we are believing in a scam?

I know you don't like it, but what's the purpose of going to a concert to tell people that the band sucks and they should leave? 

[Snowshow]

You have 1 subscriber on your youtube channel, OP, good job! I can see the message of hate is getting where it's supposed to.
Did you make all this effort to make an account here just to tell us how stupid we are believing in a scam?

I know you don't like it, but what's the purpose of going to a concert to tell people that the band sucks and they should leave? 

It's not that. It's telling people that there's no band, no concert and that the tickets they're buying are fake.

[Snowshow]

Bitcoin is a name. You, by having number in a system, are not able to show asset. For e.g, you by having number 1 attached to the addresses, compared to someone that has 0.0001, are not able to show a thousand times more zeros and ones in the system in your possession. Digital asset is zeros and ones. So you own no digital asset. You just have fake number that creates the illusion of asset quantity, as described in OP. Simply, you're the victim of a scam.

This makes me understand you know nothing about Bitcoin.  All you seem to 'know' comes from a false reality you made up yourself or believe in.  You keep saying Satoshi is scamming us out of our real assets.  Tell me, how does Satoshi steal and benefit from my Bitcoin?

You can do whatever you want. I am just telling you how things are.

So you choose to impose your mindset over ours.  When in history did that ever succeed first of all?  Also, can you imagine how this looks like from our side?

A scam is when the only possible way for you to benefit from your investment is from funds contributed by new investors. A legitimate business is when you can benefit from the asset you invested in, such as debt (fiat/bonds), equity, commodity, real estate, etc.

Now, answer me: how can you benefit from a number that you have next to your address without new investors voluntarily entering the Satoshi's system?

Easy.  Bitcoin is what now, $30,000?  Down from what, over $60,000?  Did investors leave when this drop happened?  You have to learn how market offers and demand work.  If you think Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, you got this wrong all the way.  Read the Whitepaper once, word by word, and you will know it is not.  But you rather choose to believe in a fantasy.

I provided you evidence that bitcoin is a scam system that creates the illusion of asset. You ignored all the evidences, and started to talk about irrelevant things. You're not even responding to the theme of the topic.

Quote the 'evidence', please.  I do not see any, just a conspiracy, unless I missed it all.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

Satoshi benefits from people's real assets that they transferred to him/her in the exchange for the units of his imagined quantity which were attributed to the addresses they initially created. From bitcoin, no one can benefit given this is just a name invented by Satoshi. It's assets from what people benefit. From debt they benefit when the debt is paid. From commodities when they are built into products or utilized as energy. From capital/equity when it is used to produce goods and services. From real estate people benefit by having a place to live or use it as a raw land to farm. Etc. Etc. Satoshi created no asset. He created a name(Bitcoin) and a number (21 million) to use them for creating the illusion of asset and in that way trick people out of their real asset. It is mind boggling how vehemently you people defend that scammer.

As for the evidence, the whole OP is the evidence.

[NotATether]

I am starting to think that these posts are being written by the same person but with different throwaway accounts, but I'll debunk this one too, anyway.

It reminds me of another person who was babbling about quantity a few months ago.

tl;dr
The illusion is created by misusing the concept of quantity and name. ... By writing down numbers and names, the crypto systems create the illusion of assets(money). In that way, they deceive people and trick them out of their real assets.

False. Quantity is valid electronically as it is physically. Take your bank account for example. It *only* exists in numbers - your money is not backed by an appropriate amount of bank notes, because that's how bnks work. Your money is backed by debts - which are statements of amount owed to you, and are hence also numbers.

Debt in crypto is the appropriate amount of US Dollars (or whatever other fiat currency) that was used to buy the bitcoins in the first place. This is what backs the quantity of BTC.

[coolcoinz]

You have 1 subscriber on your youtube channel, OP, good job! I can see the message of hate is getting where it's supposed to.
Did you make all this effort to make an account here just to tell us how stupid we are believing in a scam?

I know you don't like it, but what's the purpose of going to a concert to tell people that the band sucks and they should leave?  

It's not that. It's telling people that there's no band, no concert and that the tickets they're buying are fake.

What does it mean "fake"? I can see the band playing, I can hear the music, so do all the people present at the concert. Suddenly one guy comes and starts persuading us that there's no concert.
Sorry, but you need to consult your doctor.

I've done numerous transactions with Bitcoin. I was paid for work, I paid other people, I bought stuff online directly, I've bought it indirectly (gift cards), I've exchanged it for various fiat currencies.
You're wasting your time. I'm sure there are groups where you'll make some impact, but not here.

[Snowshow]

I am starting to think that these posts are being written by the same person but with different throwaway accounts, but I'll debunk this one too, anyway.

It reminds me of another person who was babbling about quantity a few months ago.

tl;dr
The illusion is created by misusing the concept of quantity and name. ... By writing down numbers and names, the crypto systems create the illusion of assets(money). In that way, they deceive people and trick them out of their real assets.

False. Quantity is valid electronically as it is physically. Take your bank account for example. It *only* exists in numbers - your money is not backed by an appropriate amount of bank notes, because that's how bnks work. Your money is backed by debts - which are statements of amount owed to you, and are hence also numbers.

Debt in crypto is the appropriate amount of US Dollars (or whatever other fiat currency) that was used to buy the bitcoins in the first place. This is what backs the quantity of BTC.

Cheap philosophy. Tell me, what is the institution, organization, person or entity that ows you something when you hold a number next to your address? Well, none. Debt is in the banking system, recorded in the balance sheet of the banks, backed by mortgages and other liens, and paid by borrowers in goods, services or labour to holders of banknotes or deposits prior to every loan repayment.

From the Satoshi's number you can benefit like in every scam - only if new investors voluntarily enter the system.  

[Snowshow]

You have 1 subscriber on your youtube channel, OP, good job! I can see the message of hate is getting where it's supposed to.
Did you make all this effort to make an account here just to tell us how stupid we are believing in a scam?

I know you don't like it, but what's the purpose of going to a concert to tell people that the band sucks and they should leave?  

It's not that. It's telling people that there's no band, no concert and that the tickets they're buying are fake.

What does it mean "fake"? I can see the band playing, I can hear the music, so do all the people present at the concert. Suddenly one guy comes and starts persuading us that there's no concert.
Sorry, but you need to consult your doctor.

I've done numerous transactions with Bitcoin. I was paid for work, I paid other people, I bought stuff online directly, I've bought it indirectly (gift cards), I've exchanged it for various fiat currencies.
You're wasting your time. I'm sure there are groups where you'll make some impact, but not here.

You did nothing of the sort. You just participated in the system tha creates the illusion of asset by attributing the units of Satoshi's imagined quantity to virtual addresses. Or, to use your analogy, you just participated in the exchanging of the tickets for a concert that will never take place.

[coolcoinz]

You did nothing of the sort. You just participated in the system tha creates the illusion of asset by attributing the units of Satoshi's imagined quantity to virtual addresses. Or, to use your analogy, you just participated in the exchanging of the tickets for a concert that will never take place.

I know you try to ignore the facts, but the concert is taking place since 2009.
When I imagine something, it's only in my mind. When I pay someone and he can buy physical goods with it, there's no imagining anything.
Guess what, when you send a bank transfer, it's also done virtually on a bank's server, just that there's no backup, no blockchain. If the server catches fire, your transaction disappears. When the bank defaults you don't get the money. When a country goes into war and limits withdrawals you don't get the money.

[Snowshow]

You did nothing of the sort. You just participated in the system tha creates the illusion of asset by attributing the units of Satoshi's imagined quantity to virtual addresses. Or, to use your analogy, you just participated in the exchanging of the tickets for a concert that will never take place.

I know you try to ignore the facts, but the concert is taking place since 2009.
When I imagine something, it's only in my mind. When I pay someone and he can buy physical goods with it, there's no imagining anything.
Guess what, when you send a bank transfer, it's also done virtually on a bank's server, just that there's no backup, no blockchain. If the server catches fire, your transaction disappears. When the bank defaults you don't get the money. When a country goes into war and limits withdrawals you don't get the money.

I am not denying the fact that you're participating in the exchange of the tickets for a concert since 2009. But you're denying the facts that the concret never took place.

And stop with this nonsense about banks. Banks produce debt, evidence it with deposits or banknotes, borrowers then collect goods, services or labour from people with those deposits or banknotes, and finally return goods services or labour back to people via loan repayments. It's a legitimate borrowing business. Creating debt and settling it. It has nothing to do with the Satoshi's scam. So stop with those nonsensical analogies.

[coolcoinz]

It's a legitimate borrowing business.

All fun and games until you get a legitimate Cyprus bailout and find out your money aren't really your property. They were yours for as long as they allowed you to take them.

I am not denying the fact that you're participating in the exchange of the tickets for a concert since 2009. But you're denying the facts that the concret never took place.

The moment tickets become goods, services, entertainment, is the moment the concert takes place. We're both standing at it, just that you have fingers in your ears, trying to tell people you don't hear anything.
This conversation is pointless.

[Snowshow]

It's a legitimate borrowing business.

All fun and games until you get a legitimate Cyprus bailout and find out your money aren't really your property. They were yours for as long as they allowed you to take them.

All property can be destroyed by natural or governmental causes. So, what is your point? What that has to do with this scam?

The moment tickets become goods, services, entertainment, is the moment the concert takes place. We're both standing at it, just you have fingers in your ears, trying to tell people you don't hear anything.
This conversation is pointless.

Tickets can become nothing. Except if you're God and can turn them into wine. All you can do with them is find new suckers who believe the concert will take place. Just like in all scams.

[NotATether]

~
False. Quantity is valid electronically as it is physically. Take your bank account for example. It *only* exists in numbers - your money is not backed by an appropriate amount of bank notes, because that's how bnks work. Your money is backed by debts - which are statements of amount owed to you, and are hence also numbers.

Debt in crypto is the appropriate amount of US Dollars (or whatever other fiat currency) that was used to buy the bitcoins in the first place. This is what backs the quantity of BTC.

Cheap philosophy. Tell me, what is the institution, organization, person or entity that ows you something when you hold a number next to your address? Well, none. Debt is in the banking system, recorded in the balance sheet of the banks, backed by mortgages and other liens, and paid by borrowers in goods, services or labour to holders of banknotes or deposits prior to every loan repayment.

Then you clearly have not studdied how foreign currency exchange works. How about educating yourself before misinforming others.

I have, because I've been in other countries.

Now when one person exchanges one currency for another that is technically buying the first currency using the second currency, or selling the second currency to buy the first currency. The value of the currency being bought is backed by the currency that is being sold, on the basis that it has value.

That's why all governments in the world (except for one*) are holding US Dollars in their central bank reserves, in addition to other priceless items such as gold.  Because thy are giving a value to the US Dollar, and thus ts value backs the value of their own cryptocurrency.

*The eception is the US government itself, whose dollars are backed by, well, nothing, ever since they abandoned the gold standard in the 70s.


You, as a person who seems very knowledgeable in how economies work (otherwise it would make your essay sound ridiculous), must already know something about how modern banking works, and that is Banks do not keep adequate reserves of  their own cash to back the numbers in their bank accounts.

This is called fractional bannking (and it has taken more than one bank to bankruptcy)

Now, it would be absurd to say that the money you have in the bank is written off just because the bank has no assets to back your bank accoount balance with[/b]

But this is not the case, instead your money is backed by the mere assurance from the bank that they will pay you back your money on a later date (It is similar to the US government's dollars being backed by nothing, when some country wants to buy dollars for their central bank).


How this relates to cryptocurrencies: All cryptos are a form of currency (otherwise you would not be launching this rant). that can be bought with  foreign currency and other types of cryptos. However, the value of this crypto can be confidently be stated as being backed by  the foreign currency used to buy it. Why? because the foreign currency stored as  a profit in crypto exchanges (most of it) is the  culmunative value of all the crypto currency that has been bought on that exxchange.

Add this culmunative value of exch exchange, and you get the total value for exch cryptocurrency.

That's why crypto goes up one day and down another day ("like numbers", because behind those "numbers" - i.e. electronic money which you believe (like bank accounts) to be zero). Because behind those "numbers" [actually units of currency] are traders on some exchange selling or buying it on some exchange.

[acroman08]

Welcome to the forum, anti-bitcoin trolls like you who are hell bent to drag bitcoin down pop up from time to time(usually when the price of bitcoin is dropping). anyway, I hope you enjoy your Discussion with our members here in the forum. just so you know you are welcome to come back once you got your fill of trolling and left the forum. 

[Snowshow]

~
False. Quantity is valid electronically as it is physically. Take your bank account for example. It *only* exists in numbers - your money is not backed by an appropriate amount of bank notes, because that's how bnks work. Your money is backed by debts - which are statements of amount owed to you, and are hence also numbers.

Debt in crypto is the appropriate amount of US Dollars (or whatever other fiat currency) that was used to buy the bitcoins in the first place. This is what backs the quantity of BTC.

Cheap philosophy. Tell me, what is the institution, organization, person or entity that ows you something when you hold a number next to your address? Well, none. Debt is in the banking system, recorded in the balance sheet of the banks, backed by mortgages and other liens, and paid by borrowers in goods, services or labour to holders of banknotes or deposits prior to every loan repayment.

Then you clearly have not studdied how foreign currency exchange works. How about educating yourself before misinforming others.

I have, because I've been in other countries.

Now when one person exchanges one currency for another that is technically buying the first currency using the second currency, or selling the second currency to buy the first currency. The value of the currency being bought is backed by the currency that is being sold, on the basis that it has value.

That's why all governments in the world (except for one*) are holding US Dollars in their central bank reserves, in addition to other priceless items such as gold.  Because thy are giving a value to the US Dollar, and thus ts value backs the value of their own cryptocurrency.

*The eception is the US government itself, whose dollars are backed by, well, nothing, ever since they abandoned the gold standard in the 70s.


You, as a person who seems very knowledgeable in how economies work (otherwise it would make your essay sound ridiculous), must already know something about how modern banking works, and that is Banks do not keep adequate reserves of  their own cash to back the numbers in their bank accounts.

This is called fractional bannking (and it has taken more than one bank to bankruptcy)

Now, it would be absurd to say that the money you have in the bank is written off just because the bank has no assets to back your bank accoount balance with[/b]

But this is not the case, instead your money is backed by the mere assurance from the bank that they will pay you back your money on a later date (It is similar to the US government's dollars being backed by nothing, when some country wants to buy dollars for their central bank).


How this relates to cryptocurrencies: All cryptos are a form of currency (otherwise you would not be launching this rant). that can be bought with  foreign currency and other types of cryptos. However, the value of this crypto can be confidently be stated as being backed by  the foreign currency used to buy it. Why? because the foreign currency stored as  a profit in crypto exchanges (most of it) is the  culmunative value of all the crypto currency that has been bought on that exxchange.

Add this culmunative value of exch exchange, and you get the total value for exch cryptocurrency.

That's why crypto goes up one day and down another day ("like numbers", because behind those "numbers" - i.e. electronic money which you believe (like bank accounts) to be zero). Because behind those "numbers" [actually units of currency] are traders on some exchange selling or buying it on some exchange.

Ok, this is how you, or generally people who educate themselves by reading conspiracy theories, view banks and how they rationalize their participation in this scam. That what you described is a classical misconception about banks. Now I am going to explain to you what the facts are.

Banks are in the business of granting loans to borrowers, that is, creating debt. When debt is created this must be evidenced somehow. For that purpose deposits or banknotes are used. As you can see, no debt - no deposits or banknotes. The latter are therefore just records of something that exists. The same as when Tesla company produce a car and then evidence the car's existence with a record in the accounting books. Once the debt is in existence, people invest in it. They invest by exchanging goods, services and labor with the borrowers for the deposits or banknotes. Finally, debt needs to be paid. That's why the banks use mortgages and other liens to force the borrowers to repay the loans. In that way the borrowers return goods, services and labor back to the people and settle the debt. The deposits and banknotes went out of circulation in that way. Meaning, no debt - no records of it. So, this is a legitimate business of creating debt, investing in debt, and settling debt. Debt is an asset because people (holders of deposits or banknotes) benefit at the debt settlement. Asset means that people benefit from it, either today, tomorrow or in the future.

In the Satoshi's system, on the other hand, there's no asset. All you have is protocols and database that use name BTC and numbers to create the illusion of asset and in that way trick people out of their real assets. Once they are tricked, they can benefit only if new investors voluntarily enter the system.  Which is a textbook definition of a scam. So, there's no currency in the system. A currency is money and money is an asset. Saying that there's currency in the Satoshi's system is spreading disinformation.

Now, you can either accept the facts I have just described. Or you can continue to use misconceptions about banks to try to rationalize yourself the scam you're participating in.

[noorman0]

Now, answer me: how can you benefit from a number that you have next to your address without new investors voluntarily entering the Satoshi's system?

Why do you always associate bitcoin benefits in nominal terms? And why do you always think bitcoin owners/recipients are investors?

If I'm a shoe store owner who doesn't like bitcoin but sees that most of my customers are bitcoiners, I can adopt it into my store. Does that mean I aim to make nominal benefit with that number? No, I just use the number to attract customers to be more consumptive. No new investors in my store story.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Ok, this is how you, or generally people who educate themselves by reading conspiracy theories, view banks and how they rationalize their participation in this scam. That what you described is a classical misconception about banks. Now I am going to explain to you what the facts are.

See? You don't care what other people think. You've told it enough times that you can't imagine a world without debt; without middlemen granting loans, borrowers etc., but this community shows you that this world of free trade and freedom of choice exists. There can be transaction settlement, exchanging, trading without debt. Besides, transaction establishment existed long before debt became a thing.  

As far as I've read, there's completely nothing irrational from NotATether's post, but it's nullified, because it doesn't encroach the way you understand money.

So, this is a legitimate business of creating debt, investing in debt, and settling debt.

Debt isn't a bad thing, by default. Borrowing money can surely have a positive impact, and there should be. Debt redistributes money into the economy, incentivizes people to become productive, works as an investment whether that's from private companies or from the government itself, helps people acquire a house to live etc., but you're naive the least if you deny the downsides. It's an instrument that causes asset bubbles, impinges on the low-income groups due to high interest policy, leads to bankruptcy, causes inflation etc.

[Snowshow]

Ok, this is how you, or generally people who educate themselves by reading conspiracy theories, view banks and how they rationalize their participation in this scam. That what you described is a classical misconception about banks. Now I am going to explain to you what the facts are.

See? You don't care what other people think. You've told it enough times that you can't imagine a world without debt; without middlemen granting loans, borrowers etc., but this community shows you that this world of free trade and freedom of choice exists. There can be transaction settlement, exchanging, trading without debt. Besides, transaction establishment existed long before debt became a thing.  

As far as I've read, there's completely nothing irrational from NotATether's post, but it's nullified, because it doesn't encroach the way you understand money.

So, this is a legitimate business of creating debt, investing in debt, and settling debt.

Debt isn't a bad thing, by default. Borrowing money can surely have a positive impact, and there should be. Debt redistributes money into the economy, incentivizes people to become productive, works as an investment whether that's from private companies or from the government itself, helps people acquire a house to live etc., but you're naive the least if you deny the downsides. It's an instrument that causes asset bubbles, impinges on the low-income groups due to high interest policy, leads to bankruptcy, causes inflation etc.

For this discussion the only important thing is that debt is an asset that at the time of settlement benefits those that invested in it. Just like this is the case with all assets - they provide benefit to people.

Here, in the bitcoin scam, the term "asset" is misused to create the illusion that there's an asset in the system. When in reality only numbers are attached to the addresses. When you use the term "transactions" this is also a misuse. Because transactions happen with assets. Attaching numbers to virtual address is not transferring asset. It is creating the illusion of asset quantity. It is scamming people.