Coldcard

[DaveF]

@satscraper
The separation of unsigned and signed transactions isn't an important feature. You can name the files however you want. Just name then accordingly if you have problems differentiating one type from the other.

@DaveF
I wouldn't worry too much about missing support. Don't forget, it's an airgapped wallet. All you need is for it to sign your transactions properly so you can export the files to your online device for broadcasting. Unless there is a vulnerability found in the older models and versions, everything is ok.

Mk4 is slowly getting support for spending Taproot the 6.x.x beta firmware supports it Mk1 to Mk3 looks like they never will
What happens when something else comes along that is not supported?

Says it right here in the Dec Firmware:
Enhancement: Continuation of removal of obsolete Mk2/Mk3 code-paths from master branch.

So we KNOW that they are no longer doing a lot of things for the older units


Something minor but this is in the Mk4 firmware:
Bugfix: Remove label from Bitcoin Core importdescriptors export as it is no longer supported with ranged descriptors in version 24.1 of Core.

It is still in the older ones. How long till core (and other other apps) change something that is no longer supported and you have to go dig up older versions of electrum / core / whatever to run this and THOSE have vulnerabilities.

Time marches on and things will get outdated and no longer supported I get that. But come out and say it. Don't just ignore it and hope we forget about it.

-Dave

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[satscraper]

Time marches on and things will get outdated and no longer supported I get that. But come out and say it. Don't just ignore it and hope we forget about it.

-Dave

I  am quiet on this and take it for granted.

Even leather wallets for bills  are wearing out and  we need to acquire new ones.

Mark 1 was released somewhere about 5-6 years ago.  Over the years things has been changed dramatically in both field software (consider   the occurrence of taproot  for instance ) and hardware (new chips, fabricated with nano-lithography). Thus, new models develop features that can not be supported  by old flavors.  

[Pmalek]

@DaveF
If you think that Taproot and any upcoming features will be important to you, then I can only suggest that you abandon Coldcard that has already let you down several times in the past. It still remains a safe signing device for regular transactions, though.

I have yet to make and use a Taproot transaction. Have you ever used them?

[DaveF]

Time marches on and things will get outdated and no longer supported I get that. But come out and say it. Don't just ignore it and hope we forget about it.

-Dave

I  am quiet on this and take it for granted.

Even leather wallets for bills  are wearing out and  we need to acquire new ones.

Mark 1 was released somewhere about 5-6 years ago.  Over the years things has been changed dramatically in both field software (consider   the occurrence of taproot  for instance ) and hardware (new chips, fabricated with nano-lithography). Thus, new models develop features that can not be supported  by old flavors.  

I have less problem with them no longer supporting the Mk2 or Mk1 then the Mk3. They were actively selling ONLY the Mk3 a recently as 18 months ago.
The Mk4 was just a preorder then:
https://web.archive.org/web/20220511012758/https://store.coinkite.com/store/coldcard

So if you wanted a coldcard you paid $140 + shipping for a Mk3 because that is what you could get.

@DaveF
If you think that Taproot and any upcoming features will be important to you, then I can only suggest that you abandon Coldcard that has already let you down several times in the past. It still remains a safe signing device for regular transactions, though.

I have yet to make and use a Taproot transaction. Have you ever used them?

Yes, I do use it whenever possible. It saves on fees :-)
a lot of people do:
https://transactionfee.info/charts/transactions-spending-taproot/

-Dave


This for me is not a 'hate on coldcard; thing it's more of a massive complain about coldcard thing. If I buy a $149 Motorola cell phone I know I am getting a lower end smart phone and it's only getting support for a couple of years. It is what is is. coldcard was touted (and priced) as a premium product in the rage of hardware wallets. If my $100 keystone with a color screen and camera and fingerprint sensor gets support dropped after a couple of years I am going to complain too but it is what it is.

But I have bought a $150 hardware wallet less then 2 years ago which was middle to higher priced and they more or less walked away from it when they Mk4 came out.

<shrug>
And this entire thing of keeping peoples money for 10+ months with the Q with no updates just annoys me, but that is just me.


-Dave

[hZti]

Sincere ColdCard is one of the more expensive wallets that you can buy I would also think it is a shame if they would stop the support of the MK3 so quickly. In some European countries you are now even allowed to request a full refund if there are no software updates for at least 2 years after purchase.

[SFR10]

Sincere ColdCard is one of the more expensive wallets that you can buy I would also think it is a shame if they would stop the support of the MK3 so quickly. In some European countries you are now even allowed to request a full refund if there are no software updates for at least 2 years after purchase.

That's interesting... IIRC, they had ^{[probably still have]} a strict no-refund policy for their products, so you're telling us there's a law that can overwrite the terms end-users agree to before purchasing the products?
^{- I had no luck in finding anything on Google (can you point me in the right direction?).}

[DaveF]

Sincere ColdCard is one of the more expensive wallets that you can buy I would also think it is a shame if they would stop the support of the MK3 so quickly. In some European countries you are now even allowed to request a full refund if there are no software updates for at least 2 years after purchase.

That's interesting... IIRC, they had ^{[probably still have]} a strict no-refund policy for their products, so you're telling us there's a law that can overwrite the terms end-users agree to before purchasing the products?
^{- I had no luck in finding anything on Google (can you point me in the right direction?).}

I'm guessing that if it comes to that if they put out even a minor release at the 731 day point after their last sale it covers the 2 years and they are clear.

They had a good reputation and they blew it for some reason. Could be lack of resources, could be lack of caring, could be they know a lot of people don't care and will keep shelling out $150 to $200 every couple of years for a new HW wallet anyway.

I used them, I supported them, I endorsed them, I stopped using them......

-Dave

[hZti]

That's interesting... IIRC, they had ^{[probably still have]} a strict no-refund policy for their products, so you're telling us there's a law that can overwrite the terms end-users agree to before purchasing the products?
^{- I had no luck in finding anything on Google (can you point me in the right direction?).}

It is actually totally normal in Germany and most of Europe that there are very strict laws that overwrite the end-user agreement. This means that you can write a lot of stuff in the end-user agreement but only the parts that are not covered by these laws are actually in effect. If there is a law that disagrees with part of the end-user agreement you can refer to that law as the user.

In this case there is a law in Germany § 475b BGB and § 475c BGB that require that you have to release updates for two years. This means that the product must be able to be used in a correct and safe way for two years. If the product can not be operated in a correct and safe way then there needs to be an update or you can return the product for a refund. Vice versa this means that you would not need an update if the products works without any security or functional deficits for two years.
What is also interesting to note is that you start those two years form the day of the sale and not from the day when the product was produced.

Sadly I can’t really find good explanations of this law in English since it is a very new law that went into affect only a year ago (01.01.2023). There a not really cases so far where courts had to fight with big companies about this, since there a probably not to many people right now that request a refund because of it.

This is an official German website where they try to inform people about this new rule: https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/vertraege-reklamation/kundenrechte/softwaregewaehrleistung-welche-rechte-habe-ich-bei-fehlenden-updates-74911

In general you can read about German warranty law and AGB-Law

[Synchronice]

That's interesting... IIRC, they had ^{[probably still have]} a strict no-refund policy for their products, so you're telling us there's a law that can overwrite the terms end-users agree to before purchasing the products?
^{- I had no luck in finding anything on Google (can you point me in the right direction?).}

It is actually totally normal in Germany and most of Europe that there are very strict laws that overwrite the end-user agreement. This means that you can write a lot of stuff in the end-user agreement but only the parts that are not covered by these laws are actually in effect. If there is a law that disagrees with part of the end-user agreement you can refer to that law as the user.

In this case there is a law in Germany § 475b BGB and § 475c BGB that require that you have to release updates for two years. This means that the product must be able to be used in a correct and safe way for two years. If the product can not be operated in a correct and safe way then there needs to be an update or you can return the product for a refund. Vice versa this means that you would not need an update if the products works without any security or functional deficits for two years.
What is also interesting to note is that you start those two years form the day of the sale and not from the day when the product was produced.

Sadly I can’t really find good explanations of this law in English since it is a very new law that went into affect only a year ago (01.01.2023). There a not really cases so far where courts had to fight with big companies about this, since there a probably not to many people right now that request a refund because of it.

This is an official German website where they try to inform people about this new rule: https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/vertraege-reklamation/kundenrechte/softwaregewaehrleistung-welche-rechte-habe-ich-bei-fehlenden-updates-74911

In general you can read about German warranty law and AGB-Law

How will you be able to request a refund if you buy it from Coldcard.com? As far as I know, they ship their product from Toronto, Canada. You are simply in Germany, they are simply in Canada, there is not much that you can do to force them to refund you or offer you a guaranteed 2 years from the day of the sale. To my mind, it will be possible to request and receive refund on items bought in Germany or in EU but I think that refund from the rest countries is impossible.

[NotATether]

In this case there is a law in Germany § 475b BGB and § 475c BGB that require that you have to release updates for two years. This means that the product must be able to be used in a correct and safe way for two years. If the product can not be operated in a correct and safe way then there needs to be an update or you can return the product for a refund. Vice versa this means that you would not need an update if the products works without any security or functional deficits for two years.
What is also interesting to note is that you start those two years form the day of the sale and not from the day when the product was produced.

I think that's very easy to side-step, just by continuing to push firmware updates so that they don't have to take people's refunds.

And then if they ever stop selling the Coldcard, just keep pushing firmware updates for two more years and then they can pull the plug on the product.

I don't think there is a set interval that the product needs to have updates made for it in, correct?

[hZti]

How will you be able to request a refund if you buy it from Coldcard.com?

You can easily sue them before any German court and win the case. The issue would be to get the money from them in Canada.
What is the correct way is to buy the ColdCard from a german vendor and then get the refund from this vendor. He will be responsible for the warranty.

I think that's very easy to side-step, just by continuing to push firmware updates so that they don't have to take people's refunds.

And then if they ever stop selling the Coldcard, just keep pushing firmware updates for two more years and then they can pull the plug on the product.

The intention is that you will have at least 2 year of updates from the day of the purchase. If the manufacturer gives you those updates then that’s not a side step because he is simply delivering what you want  

Obviously you can not force a company to give updates forever and usually a product also will not stop working instantly simply because there are no new updates.

[Pmalek]

<Snip>

It's much easier to refer to that law if you are dealing with companies and businesses registered and regulated by the German authorities or at least if they operate within the EU. I don't think it applies internationally. In this case, Coinkite is from Canada, and they are subject to whatever the law states for Canadian businesses. This is my personal opinion, but it doesn't mean that I am right.

[hZti]

In this case, Coinkite is from Canada, and they are subject to whatever the law states for Canadian businesses. This is my personal opinion, but it doesn't mean that I am right.

This is somewhat right but also somewhat wrong. It actually depends on international law and trade agreements between the countries involved. There are even different trade agreements between the same countries about different topics. In short it can’t really be answered without a lot of research. But this will only matter if you would try to force a court ruling of a european law directly on on them in canada. Usually you will just buy from an european vendor and then they will be liable.
The general point however is right: If Coinkite is willing to sell Coldcards to european customers they will have to obey national laws. This is what you can see for example with apple and the USB-C stuff and also the App-Store developments.

[Synchronice]

You can easily sue them before any German court and win the case. The issue would be to get the money from them in Canada.
What is the correct way is to buy the ColdCard from a german vendor and then get the refund from this vendor. He will be responsible for the warranty.

Yes, the problem is that you won't be able to get money from them in Canada and if that is the thing you worry about, you shouldn't order from them. If you buy them from a vendor, then vendor should be 100% reliable and verified because you are buying a cold wallet, you shouldn't risk here. There is only one official reseller in Germany, Copiaro.com
There are many others in Europe, here is the list: https://coinkite.com/resellers

To be honest, if I were to buy Coldcard, I would buy directly from their website.

If Coinkite is willing to sell Coldcards to european customers they will have to obey national laws. This is what you can see for example with apple and the USB-C stuff and also the App-Store developments.

Coinkite is not an Apple. If Coinkite sells their product from their website and offers shipping from Canada to Germany, I don't think it will be obey of laws to ship them in Germany without guaranteed 2 years of update service. It will become obey of laws if they open a shop in Germany and start selling without guarantees.

[dkbit98]

Sincere ColdCard is one of the more expensive wallets that you can buy I would also think it is a shame if they would stop the support of the MK3 so quickly. In some European countries you are now even allowed to request a full refund if there are no software updates for at least 2 years after purchase.

I don't think they are more expensive, it's similar price like worst ledger X, and with some coupons it can be even cheaper.
Now, I don't like coldcard, I don't support anything NVK is doing and I am boycotting all their products, but I am simply stating the facts.
And I think coldcard is based in Canada so good luck asking for refund, especially if you paid with bitcoin.

The intention is that you will have at least 2 year of updates from the day of the purchase.

I am sure that is only for smartphones and maybe computers, not for toasters or wristwatches. 

[hZti]

I don’t really want any kind of refund on my cold card since I am still a happy user of my mk4. Still at the time when I bought it it was around 3x the price of the cheaper options that were available at that time (ledger, trezor)

The intention is that you will have at least 2 year of updates from the day of the purchase.

I am sure that is only for smartphones and maybe computers, not for toasters or wristwatches. 

As I said before this applies to any product with electronic components, if they need the update to work correctly. Usually a toaster would function happily for more than two years without an update. A smart toaster however could maybe need a security update to work correctly.

[Pmalek]

This is somewhat right but also somewhat wrong. It actually depends on international law and trade agreements between the countries involved. There are even different trade agreements between the same countries about different topics.

Right, but like you mentioned previously, this is a relatively new law in Germany. The law has been in force for like a year, and whatever trade agreements exist between different nations and territories, those would also have to be revisited to include this new law or change it to make it work internationally. Such administrative work usually needs its time.

It is an interesting subject, though. Too bad that we don't have any legal experts here (that I am aware of) who could tell us more about our rights and obligations. 

[hZti]

It is an interesting subject, though. Too bad that we don't have any legal experts here (that I am aware of) who could tell us more about our rights and obligations. 

This is not really an easy question to answer I think. If you want to get an answer with 100% certainty you would need to go to court and see what they tell you, since there are always at least 2 possible solutions to law problems. I think however that this is not really an issue with coldcard right now and there is probably no real need to discuss this more, if there are not really people that issues with their ColdCards software.

As far as I understand all the Coldcards form MK1-MK4 can still be used safely as of now or is that not correct?

[Pmalek]

As far as I understand all the Coldcards form MK1-MK4 can still be used safely as of now or is that not correct?

I don't know about the first two models. But I think they should all work. Coldcards are airgapped offline signing devices. They create partially signed bitcoin transactions that you import to micro SD cards and broadcast on an online machine. As long as each Mk model can do that, they essentially work. I believe DaveF was complaining about Coinkite dropping support for the older models and not adding new features to it. But their main (signing) purpose can't and shouldn't simply stop working all of a sudden.

[hZti]

But their main (signing) purpose can't and shouldn't simply stop working all of a sudden.

Thanks for clarifying that! In my opinion you can not complain about this because you then get exactly what you paid for. Yes it would be nice to have more features that were not available when you bought the device, but you can surely not complain of the company does not give you those features, since they never said that they would.
The only thing that I could imagine that would be very bad is if some newer wallet versions would not recognize the transactions from the older ColdCards, because maybe some kind of format change. But that does not seem to be the case in any near future.