[Blacklist] of unreliable, 'taint proclaiming' Bitcoin services / exchanges

[LoyceV]

For example, I could own a car dealership and choose to only accept cash or Bitcoin payments, because I don't want to do business with bank

Wait, you guys still have that freedom? Here, cash payments for cars above €10k have to be reported, and car sellers with many cash payments are already "suspicious" according to their bank. Google tells me in Belgium it's not allowed to pay €3000 or more in cash for a car (or anything else). Many EU countries have similar laws already, and the maximum amounts are only getting lower.

You're basically forced to use banks. Of course governments aren't going to allow people to switch to crypto instead of cash, they need to protect their interests. And as long as most people don't care about privacy and banks offer convenient services to itemize your payments, we all just let this happen.

I am considering adding a second section for services who ask more questions than usual when your funds come from mixers, casinos, and generally discriminate coins by their supposed origin (e.g. other exchange's known address, gambling site's known payout address, ...).
This would be a broader set of 'unreliable, due to general UTXO discriminating, services' as opposed to this list of 'unreliable, due to taint proclaiming, services'.

Does that mean one is worse than the other? As in: one is less bad and thus should be more acceptable? I don't think that's a good idea.

What I find more weird is that a bank never asked me any kind of proof of where my money comes from.
At the most, I just write my annual income, without giving any proof (at least in all banks and brokers that I ever used)

Here, your salary usually arrives from another bank, making it obvious where it came from. Do you mean you get your money in cash and then deposit it to your bank, which they happily accept?

I can confirm that in Greece you can't buy almost anything with cash (except maybe ice cream, popcorns, donuts, etc...)

Greece apparently holds the record with the shadow economy making up 21.5% of the economy. You may not be able to buy a car in cash, but I'm pretty sure your mechanic will accept it.

[1715163110]

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[tadamichi]

Call me optimistic, but I want to believe that without Bitcoin, people would resort to foreign cash like USD and / or barter + gold coins? I'm probably totally off on this one, though.

There's no chance this ever happens, because:

• There will be a non-(yet)-hyperinflated currency they can use. It'll just not work exactly like cash.
• Physical cash (EUR etc.) will be discouraged to use, because usage of the e-euro will be incentivized by the conformists who'll adopt it. (And then probably by the entire world)

I would say depends on how restrictive this e-euro would become over time. If it breaks peoples freedom to transact even more, then i can see more and more people resorting to other forms of payment, for transactions that would be restricted. In a trusted community anything could work as a form of payment. Bitcoin is the way out of this, but even without it they would probably find ways that can atleast help on a smaller scale.

It will most likely end up in bureaucratic dictatorship first anyways, even with Bitcoin. Because not enough people are in it yet. But this time would also be the biggest unintentional marketing event ever created for Bitcoin and then many eyes will probably have been opened.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Greece apparently holds the record with the shadow economy making up 21.5% of the economy.

Yes. We're good at it. Laws here are close to optional. More like if they go well with you. 

I would say depends on how restrictive this e-euro would become over time. If it breaks peoples freedom to transact even more, then i can see more and more people resorting to other forms of payment, for transactions that would be restricted.

Most people nowadays use credit/debit cards and bank accounts, wherein they get their account frozen, charged with disputes, high fees etc. Yet, they still use them. Is it ignorance? I don't know, but they have their freedom infringed and most don't even react.

Bitcoin is the way out of this, but even without it they would probably find ways that can atleast help on a smaller scale.

I doubt it. Without physical cash there's no other private and convenient method to transact.

It will most likely end up in bureaucratic dictatorship first anyways, even with Bitcoin. Because not enough people are in it yet.

Some jobs can't be done without cash, even if they belong to the shadow economy. These people don't "get in", because they currently see no tangible difference. But, once their cash will no longer be an option, where do you see them head at?

[tadamichi]

I would say depends on how restrictive this e-euro would become over time. If it breaks peoples freedom to transact even more, then i can see more and more people resorting to other forms of payment, for transactions that would be restricted.

Most people nowadays use credit/debit cards and bank accounts, wherein they get their account frozen, charged with disputes, high fees etc. Yet, they still use them. Is it ignorance? I don't know, but they have their freedom infringed and most don't even react.

Oftentimes there is no other choice, i need a bank account to receive my paycheck. Sometimes the poorest in richer countries still need credit cards to still be able to transact when their bank account is already empty for this month. Sometimes its more convenient, because its more divisible than cash. You cant really pay online with cash. A debit/ credit card can sometimes be the easier/ cheaper way to transact in foreign countries, if you have a good one with low fees. There is some advantages when using credit/ debit cards depending on the situation. Most people just use a mix of everything depending on whats easiest based on the situation. Many people simply also were never affected by the points you listed above and still trust the system. They have no clue how the system works and distrust Bitcoin on the other hand and think its just hot air.

Bitcoin is the way out of this, but even without it they would probably find ways that can atleast help on a smaller scale.

I doubt it. Without physical cash there's no other private and convenient method to transact.

When cash disappears they need an alternative, it can be a worse alternative if theres no better choice anymore, as long as its still better than an e-euro for the situation they need it in.

It will most likely end up in bureaucratic dictatorship first anyways, even with Bitcoin. Because not enough people are in it yet.

Some jobs can't be done without cash, even if they belong to the shadow economy. These people don't "get in", because they currently see no tangible difference. But, once their cash will no longer be an option, where do you see them head at?

The most saleable good, depending on the situation where its used. If were heading into central planning and an e-euro wouldnt allow for all kinds of transactions, then there is another more saleable good in these specific ones. In prisons that dont allow their inmates to earn money, something like cigarettes still serves as something like money. In prisons that allow their inmates to earn money, they can buy things with regular fiat. If a prison doesnt allow trade between inmates with fiat, inmates would still use the next best good to do it, for example cigarettes.

It all depends on which good is the most saleable, if were going after monetary theory. This is what the bureaucrats forgot, because they stopped studying it. They cant micromanage how money is spent, first they tried with inflation, now they will probably try cbdcs. But they will affect the degree of saleability of their shitcoins more and more, and other forms of payment will emerge in situations where their new currency becomes unusable.

[dkbit98]

As a Greek citizen, I can tell you that I'm forbidden to make any transaction that involves more than 1,500 EUR in cash. For example, a smart TV, an upgraded PC build, a second-hand motorcycle. Obviously, I'm money laundering in all three cases.  

Oh so you are dirty criminal like Al Capone was I hope there are no government bots in forum that are tracking and reporting your words to big brother.
You won't be able to do this anymore when they try to unite your digital ID with eeuro, but maybe people should switch back to drahma, gold and bitcoins.
Problem with all their digital money numbers is unlimited supply and you can't verify it's supply, so it's perfect for government criminals, oh and they can make it with expiration date.

Yes. We're good at it. Laws here are close to optional. More like if they go well with you.  

I even heard from one greek friend that you didn't have to pay any property ownership tax until recently when law changed, and I think taxes like that are pure extortion.
You pay tax when you buy land or house, but it's not really yours but it's the property of the state and they can take it away if they want.

I'm not sure governments really want to fight against a population in which every single citizen understands what was taken away from them by limiting (or potentially banning) physical cash.

Don't worry about governments, they have all the tools to bribe and incentivize people to use whatever they want, just look what happened in past.
But good thing is that we don't need majority of people, even few percent of people that don't comply will be enough, question is do we even have few percent willing to stand up

Greece apparently holds the record with the shadow economy making up 21.5% of the economy. You may not be able to buy a car in cash, but I'm pretty sure your mechanic will accept it.

What they call shadow-economy is actually free trading between people and this should be perfectly normal, but I guess we are living in crazy world.
I think government controllers would like most if we don't own anything (including money) and rent everything digitally.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Oftentimes there is no other choice

Since 2009, there's pretty much a choice to avoid median disputes, high transaction fees and account suspensions for arbitrary reasons. The fact that the merchants and employers don't bother to look into their collective benefit doesn't mean there's no other choice.

Sometimes its more convenient, because its more divisible than cash.

Sure. But, using cash over credit card is absolutely more private than it is convenient to use credit card over cash, and more important.

When cash disappears they need an alternative, it can be a worse alternative if theres no better choice anymore

The only alternative to physical cash is electronic cash.

They cant micromanage how money is spent, first they tried with inflation, now they will probably try cbdcs.

I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing. First "inflation is transitory", then "inflation might stay", now "define recession". I'm sure they all share the same agenda, that is the great reset.

You pay tax when you buy land or house, but it's not really yours but it's the property of the state and they can take it away if they want.

Yes, although I think our 24% VAT is what takes the cake. Twenty four percent. About a quarter of it.

[tadamichi]

Sometimes its more convenient, because its more divisible than cash.

Sure. But, using cash over credit card is absolutely more private than it is convenient to use credit card over cash, and more important.

Agree. But we’re still in the minority, most people don’t have these considerations. Cash back, some free bonuses and ability to pay bills later? They will use a credit card. There are no privacy considerations for most people.

Even in Bitcoin it’s still hard to get people off centralized exchanges or services that use chain analysis and blacklists, and even scams like celsius held a lot of Bitcoin that people deposited there. I don’t remember the exact number, but it was a lot. People gave up self custody and privacy for a ponzi scheme, just because it promised a lot of yield. They preferred this over the actual system that is built to protect them from this. There’s a lot of people that give up all principles for the idea of getting more return, but it never even has to happen. That’s the paradox.

When cash disappears they need an alternative, it can be a worse alternative if theres no better choice anymore

The only alternative to physical cash is electronic cash.

Yup, so i expect people to choose Bitcoin, because it’s much more saleable than other things already. This was more for the case that Bitcoin didn’t exist. Bitcoin still gives everyone access to a worldwide market, no matter how bad cbdcs get. I don’t see the majority choosing something else over this. Removing cash can be the next catalyst for Bitcoin.

They cant micromanage how money is spent, first they tried with inflation, now they will probably try cbdcs.

I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing. First "inflation is transitory", then "inflation might stay", now "define recession". I'm sure they all share the same agenda, that is the great reset.

They know what they’re doing, but apart from this. In the eu specifically they tried to increase spending since a long time now. The whole strategy of negative or zero interest rates exists since a long time now, and partly to achieve this. But it failed hard in the end. So now they have to go into more extremes, with cbdcs they could completely micromanage how people spend their money. Central banks don’t really have any dry powder anymore, and i expect them to go into extremes to smh keep this broken system alive, there’s no other choice. It’s this or a huge financial crisis for them. They also would never admit defeat to Bitcoin voluntarily, even if they could really fix the mess like this. It’s also about self preservation.

For reference:

The ECB's negative interest rate

But why punish savers and reward borrowers?

A central bank's core business is making it more or less attractive for households and businesses to save or borrow, but this is not done in the spirit of punishment or reward. By reducing interest rates and thus making it less attractive for people to save and more attractive to borrow, the central bank encourages people to spend money or invest. If, on the other hand, a central bank increases interest rates, the incentive shifts towards more saving and less spending in the aggregate, which can help cool an economy suffering from high inflation. This behaviour is not specific to the ECB; it applies to all central banks.

We had a complete downwards trend in interest rates since 2008.

[cryptosize]

Cash is not 100% anonymous.

Serial numbers exist for a reason and they're being recorded in certain cases (i.e. bank burglary).

You do NOT want "tainted" banknotes in your hands... the police will ask where you found them.

Also, ECB had plans to embed RFID chips in Euro banknotes long time ago:

https://www.eetimes.com/euro-bank-notes-to-embed-rfid-chips-by-2005/
https://www.fleur-de-coin.com/eurocoins/banknote-rfid

Not sure why they scrapped their plans, maybe logistics didn't pan out.

Now they have CBDCs to fulfill their sinister plans, so no need for elaborate physical tracking mechanisms...

[LoyceV]

Greece apparently holds the record with the shadow economy making up 21.5% of the economy. You may not be able to buy a car in cash, but I'm pretty sure your mechanic will accept it.

What they call shadow-economy is actually free trading between people and this should be perfectly normal, but I guess we are living in crazy world.
I think government controllers would like most if we don't own anything (including money) and rent everything digitally.

It feels to me as if government wants everyone to have a paid job (paying taxes), even though they could do the same thing without payment. So if I help you, and you help me, we're good. But if I pay you for your help, and you pay me, we're both paying income tax. Formalizing normal actions makes the GDP grow, but we'd both have less money in the end.

You do NOT want "tainted" banknotes in your hands... the police will ask where you found them.

That's the thing: with cash, I don't worry about this, because I don't have to! The police can ask anything they want, and as long as I didn't break any laws when I received that money, I'm not in any trouble. The whole idea of "taint" in Bitcoin is to make people liable for other people's actions, which doesn't apply to cash fiat money:

First of all I was going to explain what we mean by fungibility before bitcoin and ecash. It's an old legal concept in fact, about paper currency. It's the idea that a one ten dollar note is the same as any other ten dollar note. If you receive a note that was involved in a theft, 10 transactions ago, and the police investigate the theft, they have no right to remove the ten dollar note from your pocket. It's not your fault that it was involved in a previous crime. And so bank notes actually have serial numbers, so it would be possible for a stolen note to be traced back to you.

This first arose, there was a 17th century court case where a wealthy merchant sent a couple of high-value bank notes to a colleague in the post and they never arrived. Before he sent them, he was quite paranoid that they would get stolen. He wrote down the serial numbers and made a mark on them. Sure enough they didn't arrive, so he put in a complaint with the bank, and evenutally the notes turned up at the bank. He tried to get the bank to return the notes to his ownership. The courts sided with the bank. Their reason was that if notes could be returned to their original owner after a theft, it would damage confidence in currency and it would be bad for business, the currency would become unusable because every time you received the paper note you would have to look in the newspaper whether it was reported stolen, or you would have the risk of it being taken, or you would have to rush to the bank to deposit it so that it was the bank's problem.

(click for the full quote)

The bolded part is the interesting part: the idea of taint damages confidence in Bitcoin. With fiat, there are quite powerful institutions protecting that confidence. With Bitcoin, the same powerful institutions would like to see Bitcoin fail. And if taint can contribute to damaging people's confidence, then that's what they'll try to convince you of.

[BlackHatCoiner]

What's also important to note is: Being subjected to "taint" and not being private (enough) are completely different situations. Even if we had zero services that treated bitcoin as non-fungible, we'd still have inadequate privacy in bitcoin transactions, part of which Lightning is improving at the moment.

On the other hand, physical cash is strongly more anonymous. Serial numbers don't reveal the direction of the coin. Therefore, there's no room for data brokers.

[n0nce]

I am considering adding a second section for services who ask more questions than usual when your funds come from mixers, casinos, and generally discriminate coins by their supposed origin (e.g. other exchange's known address, gambling site's known payout address, ...).
This would be a broader set of 'unreliable, due to general UTXO discriminating, services' as opposed to this list of 'unreliable, due to taint proclaiming, services'.

Does that mean one is worse than the other? As in: one is less bad and thus should be more acceptable? I don't think that's a good idea.

I think it would be for everyone to decide by themselves if it's more acceptable. But I believe it's more comforting to know that funds from a personal wallet are always accepted, so in those cases you would theoretically just need an extra step instead of e.g. withdrawing from an exchange directly into another one's deposit address or to a web shop's payment address.

I can confirm that in Greece you can't buy almost anything with cash (except maybe ice cream, popcorns, donuts, etc...)

Greece apparently holds the record with the shadow economy making up 21.5% of the economy. You may not be able to buy a car in cash, but I'm pretty sure your mechanic will accept it.

It's inevitable..

I would say depends on how restrictive this e-euro would become over time. If it breaks peoples freedom to transact even more, then i can see more and more people resorting to other forms of payment, for transactions that would be restricted.

Most people nowadays use credit/debit cards and bank accounts, wherein they get their account frozen, charged with disputes, high fees etc. Yet, they still use them. Is it ignorance? I don't know, but they have their freedom infringed and most don't even react.

You may be surprised; in my experience especially the last few years, I get the best feedback and interest in Bitcoin when I bring up the issues that fiat has (like frozen bank accounts etc.) and ask people if they experienced similar problems with banks. Then I explain them how Bitcoin fixes that and it really sparks much more interest than trying to explain how good of an investment it is. Especially since that's not its original goal anyway.

I'm not sure governments really want to fight against a population in which every single citizen understands what was taken away from them by limiting (or potentially banning) physical cash.

Don't worry about governments, they have all the tools to bribe and incentivize people to use whatever they want, just look what happened in past.
But good thing is that we don't need majority of people, even few percent of people that don't comply will be enough, question is do we even have few percent willing to stand up

How's that? I mean how are a few percent opposing these new measures enough to stop them?

[LoyceV]

You may be surprised; in my experience especially the last few years, I get the best feedback and interest in Bitcoin when I bring up the issues that fiat has (like frozen bank accounts etc.) and ask people if they experienced similar problems with banks. Then I explain them how Bitcoin fixes that and it really sparks much more interest than trying to explain how good of an investment it is. Especially since that's not its original goal anyway.

I don't (personally) know anyone who had their bank account frozen. I know the stories, and from those it looks like it's (Amsterdam) coffee shops and prostitutes (those are legal businesses) who have a hard time keeping a bank account. But "normal" people here don't lose access to their account. The only questions I got from my bank were relating to Bitcoin trades.

[cryptosize]

You may be surprised; in my experience especially the last few years, I get the best feedback and interest in Bitcoin when I bring up the issues that fiat has (like frozen bank accounts etc.) and ask people if they experienced similar problems with banks. Then I explain them how Bitcoin fixes that and it really sparks much more interest than trying to explain how good of an investment it is. Especially since that's not its original goal anyway.

I don't (personally) know anyone who had their bank account frozen. I know the stories, and from those it looks like it's (Amsterdam) coffee shops and prostitutes (those are legal businesses) who have a hard time keeping a bank account. But "normal" people here don't lose access to their account. The only questions I got from my bank were relating to Bitcoin trades.

In the future they will freeze your CBDC funds if you have a low social credit score...

"Normal" people with "high" social credit score won't face any issues, just like people who are compliant to dictatorships face no issues.

[o_e_l_e_o]

You do NOT want "tainted" banknotes in your hands... the police will ask where you found them.

With Bitcoin, the same powerful institutions would like to see Bitcoin fail.

It's such a hypocritical situation. No vendor ever worries about the history of the bills they receive, despite it being perfectly possible to exactly identify individual bills which were involved in robbery, theft, scam, etc., due to their serial numbers. And yet large fiat institutions advance the concept of bitcoin taint, despite it (usually) being completely impossible to identify individual bitcoin or satoshi which were involved in a robbery, theft, scam, etc., due to the very nature of UTXOs being joined and split.

In fiat we can be 100% sure which bills are tainted, but no one cares.
In bitcoin we can only poorly guess at which outputs are tainted, but apparently it has to underpin the entire ecosystem.
Buying in to this nonsense is an active attack on bitcoin.

In the future they will freeze your CBDC funds if you have a low social credit score...

Absolutely. It is the next logical step in the surveillance state. In many countries people are already scared to speak out against their government. That fear will only get worse when the government can choose to immediately freeze all your money pending your "re-education".

[BlackHatCoiner]

I don't (personally) know anyone who had their bank account frozen.

Neither do I, but I don't socialize with people who'd have their accounts frozen, even though they sometime freeze accounts arbitrarily.

From a quick search, bitcoin users and protestors aren't friends with the banks.

• https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/17/russia-todays-uk-bank-accounts-frozen-says-editor
• https://canucklaw.ca/emergencies-act-invoked-bank-accounts/
• http://www.smh.com.au/business/bitcoin-tensions-rise-as-investors-claim-banks-freezing-their-accounts-20171229-p4yy3z.html
• http://localbitcoins.blogspot.fi/2013/06/localbitcoinscom-bank-account-frozen.html
• https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160292.0

In the future they will freeze your CBDC funds if you have a low social credit score...

Absolutely.

Can't imagine how capricious it'll be to get rated in such score system. Like, how low can we reach? Absolutely terrifying.

[DooMAD]

In the future they will freeze your CBDC funds if you have a low social credit score...

Absolutely.

Can't imagine how capricious it'll be to get rated in such score system. Like, how low can we reach? Absolutely terrifying.

And the worst part is that most people are going to sleepwalk straight into it.  It's like the masses are completely oblivious to the ever-creeping threat of fascism.

[BlackHatCoiner]

And the worst part is that most people are going to sleepwalk straight into it.

Inevitable to witness the fourth-turning sheep "massacre". Fascism steps on ignorance. And ignorant, weak people are nowadays abundant.

[cryptosize]

In the future they will freeze your CBDC funds if you have a low social credit score...

Absolutely.

Can't imagine how capricious it'll be to get rated in such score system. Like, how low can we reach? Absolutely terrifying.

And the worst part is that most people are going to sleepwalk straight into it.  It's like the masses are completely oblivious to the ever-creeping threat of fascism.

Safety > freedom (for the masses/sheeple)

People are inherently insecure* (their biggest fear is death/starvation, hence why the "pandemic" narrative was so successful from the get-go), so they're going to flock to whomever promises "safety". The "stay safe" slogan is NOT a coincidence!

* this was imprinted on our genes tens of thousands of years ago (Homo Sapiens emerged in 200.000 BCE), since ancient people had endless freedom, but lack of security and no guaranteed food supplies

As soon as civilization & farming was invented back in 10.000 BCE, people willingly exchanged their freedom (hunter gatherer lifestyle) for safety/security (and worse/inferior food, like wheat compared to meat).

[cryptosize]

Just imagine what will happen when food supplies dry up and fiat currencies go down the gutter (could happen this winter, especially with EUSSR's failed currency)... how are people going to feed themselves and their families/children? Survival instincts (reptilian brain) will kick in!

But wait, WEF has a savior to feed us all (yay, moar safety!):

https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielshapiro/2021/01/14/americas-biggest-owner-of-farmland-is-now-bill-gates-bezos-turner/

Why do you think Bill Gates has bought so much land?

1) It's a good hedge against inflation (limited land >>> unlimited USD)

2) He gains a huge leverage over people:

No more meat for you? No worries, Uncle Bill is gonna give you soy "meat"... but only if you're a good boy/girl (whatever gender you prefer, there are hundreds of them ) and you accept CBDCs, UBI and social credit score.

This motherfucker predicted the COVID plandemic back in 2015 and at the same time he started buying tons of farmland...

WEF's Great Reset agenda exists at least since 2016:

https://twitter.com/wef/status/808328302213689344

You better tell me if that's a coincidence or not.

These motherfuckers are not sheeple at all, they have long-term plans and they're willing to wait as long as it takes to implement them.

[dkbit98]

Cash is not 100% anonymous.

Nobody said cash is totally anonymous, but I can still trade or buy almost anything with cash without leaving any electronical trace of that transaction.

Also, ECB had plans to embed RFID chips in Euro banknotes long time ago:

It's to expensive to print more paper with tracking chips inside when they are already working on CBDC in 90% of countries around the world.
They probably have on or two reserve options in case CBDC plan doesn't work out as they expected.

How's that? I mean how are a few percent opposing these new measures enough to stop them?

Few percenters always made big changes in human history, and all the rest are mostly hypnotized mases that follow some trend, whatever that is.
People need to be inspired by acts of brave people so they can make changes in their lives and around them, but majority of people would never do that because they are governed and ruled by fear.

I don't (personally) know anyone who had their bank account frozen. I know the stories, and from those it looks like it's (Amsterdam) coffee shops and prostitutes (those are legal businesses) who have a hard time keeping a bank account. But "normal" people here don't lose access to their account. The only questions I got from my bank were relating to Bitcoin trades.

Depends on country you live in, but I know examples of people who got everything frozen because of their political views.
Are you sure that bank accounts with tractors of all those farmers are not frozen? 
If they don't freeze their accounts, they will try to take away their land and that is even worse.

Inevitable to witness the fourth-turning sheep "massacre". Fascism steps on ignorance. And ignorant, weak people are nowadays abundant.

To be honest I think we are all much weaker and more spoiled than many generations of people that lived before us.
There is one saying that easy times are creating weak people, and hard times are creating strong people.