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Author Topic: Micheal Salyor decalogue for a 10x Bitcoin Appreciation  (Read 906 times)
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June 20, 2022, 09:30:10 PM
Last edit: May 15, 2023, 12:18:41 PM by fillippone
 #1

I saw Micheal Saylor discussing Bitcoin Strategy with Emily Chang:

MicroStrategy's Unrelenting Bitcoin Bet




At one point he hints at something causing him pain, Emily Change ignores and asks a question about Bitcoin and monetary policies and BAM! Saylor starts on autodrive enumerating the things he thinks are needed for Bitcoin to evolve from a 1 trillion industry to a 10 trillion industry:

Mark 4:18
Quote
MS:  it's in the near term Emily and it is like a high beta risk asset and there's no denying that over the long-term we believe it's a low-risk store of value asset. There are about 10 things that have to happen over the next decade to make it a better asset and we can know what those 10 things are. So we're waiting and biding your time and we think that is going to improve as an asset class over time and will not hurry.

EC: So what you see in the, let's take his ten years horizon, for example, we've seen what the fed is doing with great hikes there's all of this concerned we are heading into a recession whether it's a capital  “R” or lowercase “r” recession, what do you see on the road ahead and how is that impacting your strategy to just buy more and hold.

Then he goes with the decalogue:

Mark 5:22
Quote

Let’s just take the 10 sources of my pain:


  • so there's no wash trading rule. So people can sell their Bitcoin and buy it back and harvest tax gain and that's not the same with Apple.So that gets fixed by the house ways and means committee that's a big plus for the asset
  • there's  521 unregistered crypto exchanges offering 20x leverage. That’s a negative for the asset class. As they get regulated and I expect they will and as the 20x leverage disappears, that will be positive.
  • There are 19,000 unregistered securities in the crypto industry cross-collateralized to get bitcoin. As those things have to get eliminated, or they have to convert a mental publicly traded instruments, that got a decreased volatility and it will be a big shakeout.
  • The wildcat banks like you know the TERRA’s and LUNA’s and CELSIUS, they actually create massive volatility and as they get regulated and they disappear and they grow up and become institutionalised banks, the asset class will mature.
  • There's a lot of ignorance and fear. People think that crypto is the same as bitcoin. If they think that then, I mean, they don’t understand either of those two things.
  • We don't have a stablecoin, Emily like, UST isn’t a stablecoin, Tether is an opaque security no one understands. If we ever have an FDIC-issued stablecoin, or something from a public entity that’s endorsed by the SEC, that's going to be very bullish for the industry.
  • There is no spot ETF, I think it's only a matter of time before there is one approved. That will be very bullish for the industry.
  • The FAS accounting is detrimental for the lack of FDIC guidance makes it difficult, if not impossible for banks, to hold the stuff, we're waiting for clear SEC-CFTC guidance.

Those 10 things are going to get cured over the next decade they're just not get cured in the next 10 weeks.

Wow!
This is very interesting.
Even if I am sure he's still short of two full points, and I missed some sentences and misspelt a few words I think the message is very clear.

I even do agree with the majority of those.

I later found another video where he explains more extensively the decalogue:

Navigating the Storm - Michael Saylor - Sven Henrich - Bitcoin




The explanation is very extensive, so Im'm reporting here only the decalogue:

Quote
  • No wash Trade.
  • Unregulated Crypto Exchanges
  • Unregistred Crypto Securities
  • Wildcats Banks
  • Ignorance
  • Lack of a Stablecoin
  • No Spot ETF
  • Accounting Regulation
  • No Use Case

Also here, there's a missing reason.


Lots of the details in the videos I highly recommend everyone to look at.

Micheal Saylor thinks those are the milestones of Bitcoin as an asset class, everyone has to cooperate to get those removed, and empower bitcoin as an ultimate asset class.


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June 21, 2022, 12:58:43 PM
Merited by fillippone (3)
 #2

These problems are not new (PS. Are you sure he said UST and not USDT?), just most don't speak up - I guess that they prefer to see Bitcoin market in a "wild wild west" status. Actually he was rather silent too until he has filled his "pockets" with bitcoin  Cheesy
However, he's right. And the more big names speak up, the more chance we'll get there too... eventually.

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June 21, 2022, 01:24:47 PM
Merited by Bushdark (3), fillippone (2), Majestic-milf (2), JayJuanGee (1)
 #3

I am a new investor in Bitcoin. I entered the market before this bearish period and it has made me to study about the causes of this downward movement of Bitcoin and the solution to this problem. Micheal Salyor decalogue is the summary of all I have learnt or studied. As much as Bitcoin promotes freedom and decentralization but there must be a trade rule. People should not take advantage of the freedom it offers to harvest gains to the detriment of the market. There should be an entry and exit rule. So many shitcoins are being founded everyday and most people don't seem to understand the difference between Bitcoin and others. These unregistered crypto exchange and security firms sometimes acts like ponzi schemes that swindle people of their investment thereby giving the crypto industry a bad name. In fact I agree totally with all his points and I am sure if it is applied the Bitcoin industry would be strong and less volatile while other shitcoins would gradually disappear..      

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June 21, 2022, 01:38:04 PM
Merited by fillippone (4), Z-tight (1)
 #4

I even do agree with the majority of those.
I happened to have Youtube on autoplay and that video came up, and I ended up listening to it.  I don't agree with the first few of his "pains", in particular that wash trades are allowed and that there are so many unregulated exchanges.  Well, it's a 'sort-of' disagreement on that second one, because I'm not a fan of regulation in general as governments tend to fuck things up more than they actually help markets, and I like the fact that there are so many crypto exchanges.  If they all had to submit to whatever governments would impose on them, I'm sure half the altcoin market wouldn't even be listed on exchanges, and that would be a bad thing IMO.

By the way, these are the kinds of statements that I think might put Saylor in hot water if his shareholders decide he's made a bad decision by having MSTR invest so heavily in bitcoin.  The SEC might even decide that he's trying to hype up assets that his company owns, to the extent that it runs afoul of what's legal.  I'm just thinking aloud here, but I just get the feeling that he really ought to stay silent about his love of bitcoin for his company's sake, if not his own.

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June 21, 2022, 05:23:51 PM
Merited by fillippone (3)
 #5

To be fair before 2022 people did think that they had a stable coin but now they are most probably going to evaluate and use the government owned coins in the market since they would have better results in the domestic approach, even though they are not a crypto, they can have benefits in case of trading and would be supported by the governments alike.

Other than that I think the reason we need a stable coin is for trading and regulations might not be the answer everywhere, all the unregulated sites might be doing alright because the individual sites have to pay loads of fee for their license and thus it can be bad for some of the people running these sites.

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June 21, 2022, 07:58:32 PM
 #6

(PS. Are you sure he said UST and not USDT?)

I had many difficulties understanding the speech word by word, but I am pretty sure he said UST, short for TerraUSD which was supposed to be a stablecoin.
Please, if you find any other errors let me know.

I even do agree with the majority of those.
I happened to have Youtube on autoplay and that video came up, and I ended up listening to it.  I don't agree with the first few of his "pains", in particular that wash trades are allowed and that there are so many unregulated exchanges.  Well, it's a 'sort-of' disagreement on that second one, because I'm not a fan of regulation in general as governments tend to fuck things up more than they actually help markets, and I like the fact that there are so many crypto exchanges.  If they all had to submit to whatever governments would impose on them, I'm sure half the altcoin market wouldn't even be listed on exchanges, and that would be a bad thing IMO.

Mixed feelings about that. I think that for a "short term" return, compatible with his 10years view,  he has to be right. In order to open the floodgates of the fiat money, there must be a clear regulation.
But in the long term, regulation is useless. and bitcoin will ultimately succeed.
It depends on how steep are your time preferences.


By the way, these are the kinds of statements that I think might put Saylor in hot water if his shareholders decide he's made a bad decision by having MSTR invest so heavily in bitcoin.  The SEC might even decide that he's trying to hype up assets that his company owns, to the extent that it runs afoul of what's legal.  I'm just thinking aloud here, but I just get the feeling that he really ought to stay silent about his love of bitcoin for his company's sake, if not his own.

No way Micheal Saylor can be put in hot water by his shareholders when he controls the 74% of the voting power.

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June 21, 2022, 08:43:48 PM
Merited by NeuroticFish (1)
 #7

These problems are not new (PS. Are you sure he said UST and not USDT?), just most don't speak up - I guess that they prefer to see Bitcoin market in a "wild wild west" status. Actually he was rather silent too until he has filled his "pockets" with bitcoin  Cheesy
However, he's right. And the more big names speak up, the more chance we'll get there too... eventually.

I doubt that it is really fair to characterize Saylor as silent even though it is true that he bought something like 17k BTC for himself in mid 2020 before buying even a a larger amount with his company about a month or more later. and since his company was already public he had to make some disclosures in regards to his company and intentions before buying that first time and then he came out more publicly after his company had accumulated its initial stash..

Saylor seems to have ben going over backwards in regards to s various disclosures and publicness about bitcoin and buys and intended buys. .maybe even to his detriment.. We should also concede that there is some strategic disadvantage to telegraphing in advance too much because no one wants to be front run in terms of purchases, if they can avoid it.   

You do seem to referring to a kind of unfairness that Saylor bought 17k BTC prior to his company and prior to less ambiguous and more direct public disclosures.. I personally would not conclude that he was unethical in those kinds of ways . but surely people draw their eithical (and even is it legal?) lines in different places.

I am a new investor in Bitcoin. I entered the market before this bearish period and it has made me to study about the causes of this downward movement of Bitcoin and the solution to this problem. Micheal Salyor decalogue is the summary of all I have learnt or studied. As much as Bitcoin promotes freedom and decentralization but there must be a trade rule. People should not take advantage of the freedom it offers to harvest gains to the detriment of the market. There should be an entry and exit rule. So many shitcoins are being founded everyday and most people don't seem to understand the difference between Bitcoin and others. These unregistered crypto exchange and security firms sometimes acts like ponzi schemes that swindle people of their investment thereby giving the crypto industry a bad name. In fact I agree totally with all his points and I am sure if it is applied the Bitcoin industry would be strong and less volatile while other shitcoins would gradually disappear..      

Welcome to the forum.  I doubt that there are any absolutes, and it takes quite a while to really get into learning a lot of the various intricacies of bitcoin, including that the wholes pace and what is happening and what has historically happened to get us to where we are at can feel like a bit of a moving target to try to figure out and to make sure that you are getting bette4r information sources and sorting out some of the misleading information sources and/or their ways of presenting information.  sure critical thinking tends to be a good skill that can be applied in all areas of life, not only bitcoin related matters.

Of course, Saylor is a very articulate and smart person.. even though in bitcoin we try not to worship the ideas of any one person, and he has been speaking out about bitcoin quite eloquently, even though he really has only been involved in bitcoin for about 2 years, but he has done quite a bit on the education about bitcoin front over that time, even some courses that he had in February 2021 that were meant to help teach businesses how to get involved in bitcoin.

.. so hopefully you can continue to study various bitcoin-related matters, figure out if you want to invest into bitcoin and some bitcoin accumulating strategies for yourself in terms of how much you want to invest and how long you might want to accumulate... and even if bitcoin works for you  .and then hopefully learn along the way too. while avoid getting involved in shitcoin which from my perspective tends to be a pretty common newbie distraction and mistake that does not really help their getting understanding of king daddy and the reason that a whole hell of a lot of shitcoins are imitating and copying bitcoin and also building their scams around trying to act as if they provide some kinds of value that plays off of bitcoin's having had provided security for the whole space.

So this list of 10 items does seem to express more concerns about some of the seeming ongoing craziness around various shitcoins and shit projects that end up luring folks into wanting to gamble with either shitcoins or even gamble with their bitcoin..

Don't get me wrong.. I am not opposed to a bit of gambling.. but some of the services in both the bitcoin space and the shitcoin space allow for extremes or even sometimes people end up being their own worst enemies in terms of using those kinds of services in ways to gamble to the extremes too or believe that they are not gambling when they are engaging in pretty shitty risk-management practices.. even really smart people sometimes get lured into some of those products. and I am not sure if all of those behaviors need to be regulated, but there are probably some areas in which improvements can be made.. and probably not everyone agrees with all of Saylor's suggestions, either. which as Op mentioned seems to be part of the purpose of this thread to maybe attempt to figure out how much we may or may not agree with all or some of those Saylor points.

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June 21, 2022, 09:10:20 PM
 #8

No way Micheal Saylor can be put in hot water by his shareholders when he controls the 74% of the voting power.
Not by some proposal at the annual shareholder's meeting for sure, but there are thousands of ambulance-chasing lawyers out there just itching to throw class action lawsuits at companies whose share price has tanked because of some perceived (or actual) doing of the CEO, the company itself, or whatever they can think of.  I've gotten so many postcards alerting me of various lawsuits against companies I've owned stock in over the years that I could probably wallpaper my living room with them had I kept them all.

My point is that Saylor may be the largest shareholder, but he isn't the only one, and the others have some rights in the eyes of the law.  I have no clue what those rights are, but those aforementioned lawyers do, and I guess we'll just see how it all plays out.  The stock was up quite a bit last I checked, but nowhere near where it was some months ago.  Whoever bought it when it was $200 and above has lost money if they held onto it, and unless they share Saylor's attitude about MSTR and/or bitcoin they can't be happy.

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June 21, 2022, 09:24:11 PM
 #9

So essentially he wants more and more government regulations? But when Bitcoin was above $60k, everything was perfect, those things weren't a problem, Bitcoin was a strong and independent swarm of cyber hornets that needs no dirty regulators, am I right? He sounds desperate, because he knows he won't be able to endure Bitcoin winter for long, as he has obligations to shareholders.

Regulations will happen regardless if we want them or not, but it's up to us to choose if we want to be a part of the regulated market or unregulated. I think having a large share of coins being a part of the regulated market could be dangerous, because the government might start demanding changes to Bitcoin protocol, like surveillance or changing to PoS, and a large number of holders would support these changes if it would mean saving their money or making profit, and only a minority would stay true to the decentralized, peer-to-peer roots. This is the risk of Bitcoin market becoming dominated by rich people and institutions.

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June 21, 2022, 10:29:33 PM
Last edit: June 12, 2023, 08:17:41 PM by stompix
 #10

So essentially he wants more and more government regulations? But when Bitcoin was above $60k, everything was perfect, those things weren't a problem, Bitcoin was a strong and independent swarm of cyber hornets that needs no dirty regulators, am I right?

Nobody goes to the doctor when they know they can finish a half marathon, it's the moment when 3 steps to the first floor get you tired that suddenly you feel the need to know what's happening with your body. And as usual, when it comes to this kind of stuff, be it crypto or shares or anything related to the economy, everyone gets pissed, things are no longer going in the right way, let's find somebody to blame and pitchfork him!

For a bitcoin maximalist, it's easy for me to say yeah, kill all shitcoins, put on all exchanges a half-page banner stating the differences between bitcoin and other "cryptos", and regulate to death all those Defi, and in case he missed it fuck NFTs also!  Grin And if we talk about tether, yeah, screw that too, that's another time bomb waiting to happen.

But once you open Pandora's box stuff will keep coming out, what happens after unregistered exchanges are all regulated, mandatory KYC and AML and SOF, how many will agree with there? Kill all shitcoins or regulate it to reduce volatility, good, the next step is trading hours for BTC and shutting down trades in cases of high volatility. Once you start with regulations more will follow, first, it will be nice, then all of them will turn into a colonoscopy.

Of course, Saylor is a very articulate and smart person.. even though in bitcoin we try not to worship the ideas of any one person, and he has been speaking out about bitcoin quite eloquently, even though he really has only been involved in bitcoin for about 2 years, but he has done quite a bit on the education about bitcoin front over that time, even some courses that he had in February 2021 that were meant to help teach businesses how to get involved in bitcoin.



Let me rephrase this to become more accurate, when he caught the smell of money that could be made from it suddenly from the excitement his eyes popped out so much he saw the truthWink




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June 22, 2022, 07:30:18 AM
Merited by fillippone (3), JayJuanGee (1)
 #11

I had many difficulties understanding the speech word by word, but I am pretty sure he said UST, short for TerraUSD which was supposed to be a stablecoin.

I somehow thought it's USDT because he was also talking about Tether, but I've re-run it and indeed, he was talking about both (and you were right, it's UST there)

As much as Bitcoin promotes freedom and decentralization but there must be a trade rule.

This pretty much summarizes all. Just since the world is big and human greed even bigger, it's not possible (at least not easily) to impose such rules. Plus a balance between proper trade rules and restricting the users is not easy.
And every time somebody tries to impose rules he will have to face both freedom preachers and errors (intentional or not) in setting the right boundaries between big traders and the average Joe.

You do seem to referring to a kind of unfairness that Saylor bought 17k BTC prior to his company and prior to less ambiguous and more direct public disclosures.. I personally would not conclude that he was unethical in those kinds of ways .

I won't call him unethical. He didn't really do different than the vast majority.
Maybe I'm wrong, but he has become this vocal only after he noticed that this helps his company. Again, it's in the norms, or even better, but I think that he knew about most of these problems also in 2020.




Fully back on topic: I think that he cannot influence much the big exchanges running in non-"western" companies. But I don't think that anything stops him from making an exchange with more functions, lower fees and a real competitor to the more shady exchanges. The lower fees should attract the bigger traders that pay their taxes anyway and maybe this kind of moves could level the balance a little.
Since Bitcoin is not ruled by an entity, it cannot choose sides and allow only fair players buy or sell it. And most countries won't care to adapt the legislation to the wishes of big American investors (in some case simply because they're american and "they should not teach us"). Obviously the exchanges will prefer those countries.

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June 22, 2022, 09:10:23 AM
 #12

I still don’t know why such talk shows are always in “talks” irrespective of how we invest into crypto currencies and most specifically in the bitcoin. If the tech was injected into world system then there were surely thousand thoughts behind it and the man actually succeeded in the same. I’m talking about the real Mr Satoshi so I’m sure we do not want to hear anyone else whatsoever.

These things are just out of the blues all the time. Big people barge in with their nice and swift speech, manipulate the whole thing and put us on the bitcointalk thread discussion. Lolz.
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June 22, 2022, 10:01:48 AM
 #13

I still don't comprehend it why Micheal Saylor thinks regulating the crypto market could be a shootout for Bitcoin massive bullish movement. He had so much invested in Bitcoin which he made known to the public but his perception about the crypto market is totally different. Does he thinks the regulation of crypto changes and the entire market could skyrocket the price of Bitcoin? Bitcoin is a very volatile financial asset and we'll know that most time, price do go up and down depending on liquidity and other factors that do trigger price movement.


Michael Saylor
It seems that he's already in lose and I am very much interested in his confidence to buy more Bitcoin even if the price tend to go more bearish. Everything in the crypto space is all about and it be more profitable if we can hold our Bitcoin for a long time so Bitcoin price movement can get mature.

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June 22, 2022, 10:21:48 AM
Merited by The Sceptical Chymist (3)
 #14

I like to listen to logical people who do not have investments in bitcoin because their opinions will be less biased, provided that those opinions are after research and not convictions that have no meaning. Grin

I agree with him in some parts such as unregulated crypto exchanges, ignorance and the absence of institutional regulation, this regulation will eliminate many Altcoin/DeFi that claim to be decentralized, but they are completely centralized.

But when we come to mentioning stable currencies, if they are centralized or from regulatory bodies, then they are paper money in digital form. It is better to say that a decentralized stable currency must be developed that does not need reserves, but it is something that is closer to the impossible now, especially in the case of market fluctuations.

UST was a failed model for thAT, but it is an idea worth developing.

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June 22, 2022, 03:45:46 PM
 #15

But once you open Pandora's box stuff will keep coming out, what happens after unregistered exchanges are all regulated, mandatory KYC and AML and SOF, how many will agree with there? Kill all shitcoins or regulate it to reduce volatility, good, the next step is trading hours for BTC and shutting down trades in cases of high volatility.
Yep.  And how long until crypto exchanges can only operate between 9:30am-4pm, like the stock exchanges in the US?  One of the many things I love about crypto is precisely how unregulated it currently is.  Part of the responsibility of being your own bank is knowing the risks and taking whatever precautions are necessary to keep your money safe--and the point is that it's the individual's responsibility, without the need for a big government daddy figure making up rules as they go along.  Once governments decide to step in, they're without a doubt going to fuck everything up.

Part of me (and not a small one) wishes Michael Saylor would just zip his mouth shut, especially about this kind of stuff.  On the other hand I realize any regulations the government(s) decide to implement won't come about just because of what he says.  I'm pretty sure there are a lot of other big players working behind the scenes, deciding what regulations should be written into law.

I chuckled at your medical analogy, by the way.  Funny, but very appropriate.

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June 22, 2022, 05:43:12 PM
 #16

It is clear that Saylor has been bullish on bitcoin and a big maximalist for a long time. Why would we be shocked that he would talk about how it is much better.

I mean think about it, what other assets that you could own, which has a chance to bring you money as much as crypto could? I believe that he doesn't stop with bitcoin love, he loves a bit of other coins as well, but when you are handling billions of dollars, it is smarter to just invest into bitcoin since it is at the top and most trusted one, has the least risk as well. I believe that all the money they "lost" right now, will be fine because they will hold it as long as possible.

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June 22, 2022, 05:58:43 PM
 #17

Of course, Saylor is a very articulate and smart person.. even though in bitcoin we try not to worship the ideas of any one person, and he has been speaking out about bitcoin quite eloquently, even though he really has only been involved in bitcoin for about 2 years, but he has done quite a bit on the education about bitcoin front over that time, even some courses that he had in February 2021 that were meant to help teach businesses how to get involved in bitcoin.



Let me rephrase this to become more accurate, when he caught the smell of money that could be made from it suddenly from the excitement his eyes popped out so much he saw the truth.  Wink

Almost, but not quite stompix.

I take Saylor at his word in regards to the March 2020 events causing him to get motivated to place his value/cash (and his company's) somewhere that was not like a melting ice cube.

Later Saylor became more aggressive, so at later dates the initial motivations might not have had still been applicable.. to the extent it matters much in terms of a distinction. ... .. so in that regard, his gravitation towards extreme and more extreme did start to seem like the initial motives no longer described what he was doing.

You do seem to referring to a kind of unfairness that Saylor bought 17k BTC prior to his company and prior to less ambiguous and more direct public disclosures.. I personally would not conclude that he was unethical in those kinds of ways .

I won't call him unethical. He didn't really do different than the vast majority.
Maybe I'm wrong, but he has become this vocal only after he noticed that this helps his company. Again, it's in the norms, or even better, but I think that he knew about most of these problems also in 2020.

Ever since the events around the OP starting his other Microstrategy's thread (MicroStrategy Buys $250M in Bitcoin, Calling the Crypto ‘Superior to Cash’) Saylor has always been quite vocal regarding his having had gotten involved in Bitcoin and the reasons why, and of course, he likely considered it beneficial to his company to be very public about bitcoin .. and there was likely some positive feedback loop, too (he has even mentioned those kinds of ongoing positives to his company)... why not kill two birds with one stone?

Even if many of us consider Saylor as a very quick study in terms of frequently being able to articulate bitcoin's investment thesis better than many of the bitcoin OGs, he still has been growing as he goes, and some of his ways of emphasizing certain topics have changed and even flip-flopped to some degree with the times and current events.

There are some ways that Saylor expresses some bitcoin-related matters from a BIG company and rich-person perspective that might still be ok. and from time to time sill aligned with the interests of normie poor peeps.. but there are other ways that tensions exist between his perspectives and the perspectives of normie poor peeps.. .. so even if there may well be advantages that come (trickle down) from the abilities that poor peeps get from the lifting of all boats, there are als sometimes some advantages that are available in bitcoin in terms of poor people remaining unbanked and being able to skirt regulated systems.

We are not tending to see Saylor speaking from such poor peep perspective and even there might be some tensions from time to time with various kinds of competing perspectives and Saylor is surely better able to articulate from his perspective, and every once in a while we might see some common man perspectives that are articulated well too.. but not through Saylor... Bitcoin does still seem to allow for quit a bit of abilities to do all the things, even if sometimes there might be trade-offs too.. and Saylor is no dummy.. but he might not find it a good idea (or use of his speaking skills) to talk much about the ways that bitcoin might allow the skirting of regulations and to potentially overthrow governments, even though he seems to know about those kinds of possible bitcoin features and sometimes even makes some references to some of those kinds of powers and bitcoin features. He just does not tend to emphasize those kind of angles very often, and seemingly subtly when he does if at all.

I like to listen to logical people who do not have investments in bitcoin because their opinions will be less biased, provided that those opinions are after research and not convictions that have no meaning. Grin

I agree with him in some parts such as unregulated crypto exchanges, ignorance and the absence of institutional regulation, this regulation will eliminate many Altcoin/DeFi that claim to be decentralized, but they are completely centralized.

But when we come to mentioning stable currencies, if they are centralized or from regulatory bodies, then they are paper money in digital form. It is better to say that a decentralized stable currency must be developed that does not need reserves, but it is something that is closer to the impossible now, especially in the case of market fluctuations.

UST was a failed model for thAT, but it is an idea worth developing.

UST was likely designed to scam people, and make it seem that there was something valuable there, and it was successful in attracting a lot of capital.

I am surely not opposed to having innovations and freedom for developing. .incentives, too.. yet UST should show us that even very smart people can get lured into shitty/scammy projects for reasons that do not make a lot of sense if looked at with a microscope.. (and retroactively), but seems to enticing and even seem to make a lot of sense while the project is in its growth - capital luring stages. ..

For example, take the more obvious dynamic of the 20% interest rate that is not sustainable that is used as a payout to lure new capital that then funds the payment of 20%, so when the new entrants are not coming in anymore, then the 20% cannot be paid.. which causes a cascading of exits.. but not enough capital to sustain the paying out of everyone because the fund had already been paying 20% to the earlier entrants so there is not enough money remaining in the system to pay folks as they increasingly exiting and causing incentives to leave as early as possible and a death spiral to any ability to hold pegs, even if there are desires to try to hold up the peg.. value had already left earlier by the earlier payouts of 20% and then having to pay the earlier folks as they leave.. ..   

I find difficulties in realizing how could that kind of "innovative" scam system creation be considered "worth developing?"

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June 22, 2022, 08:51:41 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #18

Ever since the events around the OP starting his other Microstrategy's thread (MicroStrategy Buys $250M in Bitcoin, Calling the Crypto ‘Superior to Cash’) Saylor has always been quite vocal regarding his having had gotten involved in Bitcoin and the reasons why, and of course, he likely considered it beneficial to his company to be very public about bitcoin .. and there was likely some positive feedback loop, too (he has even mentioned those kinds of ongoing positives to his company)... why not kill two birds with one stone?

Even if many of us consider Saylor as a very quick study in terms of frequently being able to articulate bitcoin's investment thesis better than many of the bitcoin OGs, he still has been growing as he goes, and some of his ways of emphasizing certain topics have changed and even flip-flopped to some degree with the times and current events.

There are some ways that Saylor expresses some bitcoin-related matters from a BIG company and rich-person perspective that might still be ok. and from time to time sill aligned with the interests of normie poor peeps.. but there are other ways that tensions exist between his perspectives and the perspectives of normie poor peeps.. .. so even if there may well be advantages that come (trickle down) from the abilities that poor peeps get from the lifting of all boats, there are als sometimes some advantages that are available in bitcoin in terms of poor people remaining unbanked and being able to skirt regulated systems.

We are not tending to see Saylor speaking from such poor peep perspective and even there might be some tensions from time to time with various kinds of competing perspectives and Saylor is surely better able to articulate from his perspective, and every once in a while we might see some common man perspectives that are articulated well too.. but not through Saylor... Bitcoin does still seem to allow for quit a bit of abilities to do all the things, even if sometimes there might be trade-offs too.. and Saylor is no dummy.. but he might not find it a good idea (or use of his speaking skills) to talk much about the ways that bitcoin might allow the skirting of regulations and to potentially overthrow governments, even though he seems to know about those kinds of possible bitcoin features and sometimes even makes some references to some of those kinds of powers and bitcoin features. He just does not tend to emphasize those kind of angles very often, and seemingly subtly when he does if at all.

I don't have expectations from him to show the perspective of the average Joe. His target are wealthy entities that would invest into bitcoin and, why not, into MicroStrategy.
Of course that "certain details" are avoided in his speech. No problem with that, none at all.

But the problem is that the average Joe doesn't know what he wants. Or each Joe wants something different. We seem to want governments stop scammers that create misleading products or do market (and media) manipulation, but when this translates into KYC requirements for example, we become angry. We want wild and free market (which means also allowing manipulation), but we also want the price never go down. A lot of odd contradictions.

Of course that his business man views will contradict to some of the average Joe views. But if we want a proper market for Bitcoin, then he's right. If we don't care that some do wild things, if we don't care whether Bitcoin remains legal or not (!), then we're good as we are.

This is how I see it.

The problem is not what Saylor wants. The problem is that the rules and regulations imposed by politicians are more similar to throwing a bomb than doing some "surgical" changes like we would probably like (or don't mind).
And another problem is that with so many countries in this world, regulations imposed by a couple of countries cannot change much of the overall situation, unless the example of those countries is taken by most.

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June 23, 2022, 12:06:00 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #19

I consider bitcoin as a speculative asset, but in short term, while a store of value in long term, that is obvious from the past and present. Bitcoin is an asset that has both bulls and bears periods. If the past is analysed with the present, this year itself shown to be bearish.

Anyone investing in bitcoin needs to properly analyse and make the right decision, especially if investing large amount of money. Before the Luna, UST and others that seem like a ponzi crashed, bitcoin has never been massively bullish this year. I remember the last time Microstrategy invested in bitcoin, the price of bitcoin continued to crash unlike in 2021 when bitcoin market soar to all-time-high. Without this proper analyses, even long term holders can be in time of panic. But all needed is to remain strong and watch the whole bear market end and see a massive bull run which may likely be in 2024 after halving.

There are over 19000 altcoins existing, bitcoin is bitcoin, it is perfect without regulation, but altcoins needs to be regulated. Many altcoins are just ponzi schemes just like the Luna and UST. Normally this year supposed to be bearish, but some people can panic during the ponzi altcoin crash and made the crash more deeper, but this is just a guess, I do not think those altcoins has to do with this because bitcoin does not depend on altcoins. But the rate new altcoins are created is high and regulation will help against it and the shadiness within altcoin projects.

About the stable coin aspect, TUSD, USDT and some others are not algorithmic stable coin, that is the problem many stable coin are facing, they are algorithmic and resulting to the stable coins to become volatile and decreased in price during massive sell of the coin if compared to its pegged fiat, this has been happening many years ago and I still do not know why new projects keep coming to be algorithmic stable coin. I believe traditional collateralized stable coin like TUSD and USDT are not the problem because they are pegged to remain $1. Even if there is any risk, it is still better that those algorithmic stable coin. The only problem I see more about some traditional collateralized stable coins is that some like USDT can be freezed on noncustododial wallet. But I will always prefer fiat than those stable coins as they can not be fully trusted, only bitcoin that is most decentralized is trustworthy, altcoins are centralized in one aspect or the other.

But above all, I still see bitcoin to be independent from those altcoins, the period we are is just not a good time for bitcoin. A period that will not only encourage many bulls that are now bears to invest but also people that have not invested before, thinking they have missed and preparing to invest and this will make period of all-time-high possible. We can not expect the market to continue to be grow, it also shrinks in order to grow more.

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June 23, 2022, 03:36:28 AM
Merited by NeuroticFish (2)
 #20

Ever since the events around the OP starting his other Microstrategy's thread (MicroStrategy Buys $250M in Bitcoin, Calling the Crypto ‘Superior to Cash’) Saylor has always been quite vocal regarding his having had gotten involved in Bitcoin and the reasons why, and of course, he likely considered it beneficial to his company to be very public about bitcoin .. and there was likely some positive feedback loop, too (he has even mentioned those kinds of ongoing positives to his company)... why not kill two birds with one stone?

Even if many of us consider Saylor as a very quick study in terms of frequently being able to articulate bitcoin's investment thesis better than many of the bitcoin OGs, he still has been growing as he goes, and some of his ways of emphasizing certain topics have changed and even flip-flopped to some degree with the times and current events.

There are some ways that Saylor expresses some bitcoin-related matters from a BIG company and rich-person perspective that might still be ok. and from time to time sill aligned with the interests of normie poor peeps.. but there are other ways that tensions exist between his perspectives and the perspectives of normie poor peeps.. .. so even if there may well be advantages that come (trickle down) from the abilities that poor peeps get from the lifting of all boats, there are als sometimes some advantages that are available in bitcoin in terms of poor people remaining unbanked and being able to skirt regulated systems.

We are not tending to see Saylor speaking from such poor peep perspective and even there might be some tensions from time to time with various kinds of competing perspectives and Saylor is surely better able to articulate from his perspective, and every once in a while we might see some common man perspectives that are articulated well too.. but not through Saylor... Bitcoin does still seem to allow for quit a bit of abilities to do all the things, even if sometimes there might be trade-offs too.. and Saylor is no dummy.. but he might not find it a good idea (or use of his speaking skills) to talk much about the ways that bitcoin might allow the skirting of regulations and to potentially overthrow governments, even though he seems to know about those kinds of possible bitcoin features and sometimes even makes some references to some of those kinds of powers and bitcoin features. He just does not tend to emphasize those kind of angles very often, and seemingly subtly when he does if at all.

I don't have expectations from him to show the perspective of the average Joe. His target are wealthy entities that would invest into bitcoin and, why not, into MicroStrategy.
Of course that "certain details" are avoided in his speech. No problem with that, none at all.

But the problem is that the average Joe doesn't know what he wants. Or each Joe wants something different. We seem to want governments stop scammers that create misleading products or do market (and media) manipulation, but when this translates into KYC requirements for example, we become angry. We want wild and free market (which means also allowing manipulation), but we also want the price never go down. A lot of odd contradictions.

Of course that his business man views will contradict to some of the average Joe views. But if we want a proper market for Bitcoin, then he's right. If we don't care that some do wild things, if we don't care whether Bitcoin remains legal or not (!), then we're good as we are.

This is how I see it.

The problem is not what Saylor wants. The problem is that the rules and regulations imposed by politicians are more similar to throwing a bomb than doing some "surgical" changes like we would probably like (or don't mind).
And another problem is that with so many countries in this world, regulations imposed by a couple of countries cannot change much of the overall situation, unless the example of those countries is taken by most.

I don't disagree with anything that you are saying, but it still seems that you and I might be speaking past each other to some extent, and I am not even sure how much it matters, but when I was attempting to contrast Saylor's perspective to poor peep, it seems that I have a different understanding of what might be the relevant contrast than you, because you ended up contrasting Saylor's view to the average Joe.

Of course, we know that there are all kinds of people in the world, and to some extent when I am using the word "poor peep," and am not really thinking about someone who might be an "average joe."

There are a lot of contradictions in bitcoin and a lot of disconnection between  those who are buying bitcoin and those who may well have the potential of benefitting the most from bitcoin, in terms of being unbanked.  I consider the average joe to be banked and even somewhat unclear about how he might benefit from bitcoin, even though there should be plenty of evidence that the dollar is not holding value when it comes to purchasing power.

I don't want to flesh out my ideas further regarding how poor peeps might differ from average Joes (and sure they might overlap in several ways, too), but I did find it interesting that your descriptor did bring a different image than the perspectives contrast that I was trying to make.

I consider bitcoin as a speculative asset, but in short term, while a store of value in long term, that is obvious from the past and present. Bitcoin is an asset that has both bulls and bears periods. If the past is analysed with the present, this year itself shown to be bearish.

Anyone investing in bitcoin needs to properly analyse and make the right decision, especially if investing large amount of money. Before the Luna, UST and others that seem like a ponzi crashed, bitcoin has never been massively bullish this year. I remember the last time Microstrategy invested in bitcoin, the price of bitcoin continued to crash unlike in 2021 when bitcoin market soar to all-time-high. Without this proper analyses, even long term holders can be in time of panic. But all needed is to remain strong and watch the whole bear market end and see a massive bull run which may likely be in 2024 after halving.

Of course, there are a variety of ways to invest in bitcoin, and to try to assure that you are attempting to invest rather than gamble.. I have my doubt whether investing large amounts of money is a good tactic, but I do agree with dollar cost averaging, lump sum investing and buying on dips over a 4-10 year time horizon or longer and not investing more than you can afford to lose. A good newbie strategy is to start with a modest amount of money such as $100 per week or maybe even less than that, and to study bitcoin while investing to figure out whether increasing or decreasing such weekly amount might be more comfortable.

The more you known about the investment (bitcoin in this case) the more aggressive that you might feel comfortable with.. but still it seems that a 4 to 10 year or longer investment timeline should be expected for any new money that is put into bitcoin. So maybe my points is recommending to get started right away (perhaps starting with a small amount), and study as you go and then tailor your approach to how you feel after studying and investing.

1) Self-Custody is a right.  There is no such thing as "non-custodial" or "un-hosted."  2) ESG, KYC & AML are attack-vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.  3) How much alt (shit)coin diversification is necessary? if you are into Bitcoin, then 0%......if you cannot control your gambling, then perhaps limit your alt(shit)coin exposure to less than 10% of your bitcoin size...Put BTC here: bc1q49wt0ddnj07wzzp6z7affw9ven7fztyhevqu9k
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