Does Bitcoin have real value?

[hatshepsut93]

Fourth, the subjective theory of value is wrong. People can be defrauded. Theranos is a recent example of this. People can also be mistaken about value. The housing crash or the numerous failed investments in start-ups are clear examples of this. When people are defrauded or are mistaken, this means their belief in something being a value is wrong. Just because a lot of people believe that something is a value doesn’t make it so.

I don't think that existence of fraud disproves subjective theory of value. From the point of view of defrauded people, they are having a good deal, and if they knew the truth, they would change their evaluation.

Stocks can be analyzed by looking at performance of the company, state of the market and so on, and then calculating how much should they be worth, based on expected profit, but if a company lies about the state of its operations, you will get defrauded, even though you used math to calculate "objective" value.

[Smartvirus]

But I’ve found these reasons to be invalid.

First, the fact that Bitcoin can be used as a type of currency cannot justify its value. For something to be useful as a type of currency, it must satisfy all the following conditions:

4. It must be a long-term stored value.

Bitcoin does meet the first three conditions.

The fourth condition means it must already be considered a value before it can be used as a currency. If there isn’t independent support for its having value, the claim that Bitcoin has value is circular. See below:
1. Bitcoin is a value because it can be used as a currency.
2. Bitcoin can be used as a currency because it is a [long-term stored] value.

And after stating all that is contained in OP, you expect usto just dump bitcoin or cryptocurrencies and then, move on with our lives with fiat and be okay with it. By the way,

Isn't what is contained in the quote above contractive? Looking at point 4 and 2 as at above, following your introductory statement.
I think you @OP seems to attach value of to what is tangible and have got government backings. Anything other than that is banned to fail from your view point as I see it. I may be wrong and stands to be corrected but, that's what I can deduce from that and I don't seem to agree.

Intangible things have value too and the value to a commodity is largely based on acceptance by the masses. Perhaps I refuse to buy at your "Ask" price, it simply means I don't value it as much and you refused to sell at my "Bid" price simply means, you value it far more than I do value it. Yeah, demand and supply sets the price but, no government backings doesn't mean failure.

[darkangel11]

Fourth, the subjective theory of value is wrong. People can be defrauded. Theranos is a recent example of this. People can also be mistaken about value. The housing crash or the numerous failed investments in start-ups are clear examples of this. When people are defrauded or are mistaken, this means their belief in something being a value is wrong. Just because a lot of people believe that something is a value doesn’t make it so.

I don't think that existence of fraud disproves subjective theory of value. From the point of view of defrauded people, they are having a good deal, and if they knew the truth, they would change their evaluation.

Stocks can be analyzed by looking at performance of the company, state of the market and so on, and then calculating how much should they be worth, based on expected profit, but if a company lies about the state of its operations, you will get defrauded, even though you used math to calculate "objective" value.

That's right and Theranos and similar companies cannot be compared to bitcoin. Bitcoin has no CEO, no front man to make promises. It cannot lie about its performance, we all see it and can analyze the blockchain if we went.
We weren't persuaded by anyone to invest in bitcoin, we did it because we saw value and uniqueness in it.

OP, what is "real value"?
People gave you an example of diamonds and gold, but there were many more similar cases in history. People were using seashells as a medium of exchange which proves that bitcoin doesn't have to be valuable to be used. Its use and trust in the system makes it valuable.

What persuaded me to support bitcoin was mainly decentralization. I had enough of banks deciding what I can buy and reporting my finances to various authorities. I want to be able to travel with my money without having to confess and explain myself every time. I want to be able to spend on whatever I choose to because it's my hard earned money we're talking about.

[larry_vw_1955]

In my research, I’ve identified four reasons that people give for why they consider Bitcoin to be a value.

you're not going to be very well received by alot of people here on the forum but you make a very well reasoned intelligent set of points. and i think they are valid. i couldn't have said them better myself.

The first reason is it’s useful as a type of currency. In fact, Bitcoin’s biggest value proposition is that it can be used as an alternative to fiat currency. This supposedly gives users more freedom than they would otherwise have. For example, if someone in China wants to trade their yuans for dollars without having to deal with governmental control over the banking infrastructure, they can trade yuans for Bitcoins and then trade those Bitcoins for dollars.

that's until the countries start making it a crime to "launder" money and not report what you're doing. if you keep ignoring their rules then, you become a criminal.

The second reason is that it’s finite. This means users should be protected from a third-party (i.e., the government) creating an unlimited number of additional Bitcoins, thus, diluting its value.

Finite would be something that is not sub-dividable. But the thing about bitcoin is, they can keep subdividing it for as long as they want to. If need be they could oneday subdivide it into sub-satoshis. Milli, micro, pico, etc. So it really isn't finite in that sense. You can't really divide the us dollar into something less than a penny. If bitcoin couldn't be divided into anything smaller than a satoshi then it would be "finite".

The third reason is that it costs energy in the form of human labor and electricity to produce. This can be referred to as the labor theory of value.

What type of human labor does bitcoin need ? I'm not aware of any. But it does require electricity but not to produce it but to secure it. Not sure the electricity expense is in line with the market value of it though. I guess that's another story.

The fourth reason is that people believe it’s a value. This can be referred to as the subjective theory of value.

Good one! You've identified all the problems with bitcoin in a nutshell. This 4th reason is maybe the biggest problem bitcoin really has. That's why for example it used to be $60,000+ and now it is only around $20,000. it's not backed up by anything.

[romero121]

Bitcoin have value by us. if we buy Bitcoin , use Bitcoin hold Bitcoin and trust Bitcoin like our fiat currency then Bitcoin have real value and then Bitcoin is a valuable currency. But if we do not trust it , do not use it do now t buy and hold it . Then it have no real value. It totally depend on us. We trust and we buy & hold it that's why btc is a valuable currency and it have a lot value

Yes, the value is generated out of trust. If someone interested in bitcoin believe that spending certain amount on bitcoin is worthy, they'll pay for it. In general it is possible only out of the trust. The limited supply and the halving features increase the demand. This means when the supply is limited and unable to fulfill the demands the price will increase.

The usage on multiple needs too generate value for bitcoin. All it started as a giveaway token and slowly it came out through different forms to reach the present value. Here Laszlo Hanyecz have a important role in giving value to bitcoin.

[reasonspace]

“Is Bitcoin a real value?” That is, is it something that helps sustain human life and is to be pursued for that reason?

Neither gold nor diamonds, for example, help sustain human life but they, for some reason, have maintained their value for thousands of years.

Putting side the utility of gold (e.g., tooth fillings) and diamonds (e.g., cutting devices), art is fuel for the soul. Gold and diamonds are used to create objects that gives you motivation to do more. You enjoy art (and music) as an end to itself and not just as a means to an end. This idea of things being consumed as an end in itself applies to many things. Take for example a piece of steak. You can eat any cooked piece of meat to get protein for you body (means to an end). Yet you are willing to work more to get more money to spend on a nice piece of steak in a romantic restaurant. This is an example of fuel for the soul. Man is not just an animal. He is an animal with a *volitional* consciousness. The fuel is to give his violation to do more.

I agree that the labor theory is fallacious and misleading. But again, "Bitcoin doesn't have value because it is mined, bitcoin is mined only because it has value."

I invite you to take a look at this argument map  that I've created to help me write this article. I look forward to feedback on additional arguments for why Bitcoin has value that is not dependent on circular logic or invalid theories of value.

https://app.reasonspace.com/maps/905?token=1e709bb0-c732-4077-85a4-e0a64af89098

If the labor theory is wrong, then the only explanation of the nature of value is that it is purely subjective.

I disagree. There is the objective theory of value. That is, that which is valuable to your life is substantiated by objective fact. Take for example water. Water, in certain quantities, is objectively valuable to your life. You can pretend that it's not all you want, but you will be dead after a certain amount of time if you do not consume something that has water in it. This is an objective fact not subject to any subjective whim.

The US government requires traders to give them US dollars whenever a trade occurs (i.e., taxes). This requirement is forced at the point of a gun. The US dollar is, at its core, a type of ticket that you must give to the government to allow you to live.

Don't take this personally, but the way you've formed how this world works is honestly gloomy and hopeless the least. It's not a surprise you don't find value in bitcoin, because you neither find value in freedom, privacy and censorship-resistance either.

Fortunately for the rest of us, this world is consisted of people who perceive things in a different way than you do. There's an admiring number of people who disagree with your assertion. Bitcoin is, therefore, valuable for those.

Odd. I would've made the assumption that if someone wrote what I wrote that the writer is anti-taxation and anti-fiat currency. However, the fact that I am anti-taxation and anti-fiat currency doesn't mean that I am oblivious to the fact that I must give the government those pieces of paper to live.

I am also not oblivious to the fact that ANY currency requires the sanction of the government. That is, the government can easily make that currency next to useless by banning it. This means contracts denominated in that currency is unenforceable. You cannot build large enterprises relying on unenforceable contracts. All that you can build are criminal organizations where you need to hire your own mercenaries to enforce your contracts.

Bitcoin, even if it has some value that I've yet been unable to identify, is not a solution to government force. The only solution is philosophical in nature. But that's a different matter all together.

[Sebas.tian]

Bitcoin have value by us. if we buy Bitcoin , use Bitcoin hold Bitcoin and trust Bitcoin like our fiat currency then Bitcoin have real value and then Bitcoin is a valuable currency. But if we do not trust it , do not use it do now t buy and hold it . Then it have no real value. It totally depend on us. We trust and we buy & hold it that's why btc is a valuable currency and it have a lot value

I agree with you, because many countries that made bitcoin legalized in their various countries came to discovered that bitcoin has a great value like their fiat money. Many people has achieved a lot of income from bitcoin investment which many people are still planning to achieve more, because the price just dropped down to $20,000 for those that missed the opportunity to buy bitcoin to use this opportunity to buy more of bitcoin and hold for the price to increase higher before they can sell to make a passive income.

[witcher_sense]

Putting side the utility of gold (e.g., tooth fillings) and diamonds (e.g., cutting devices), art is fuel for the soul. Gold and diamonds are used to create objects that gives you motivation to do more. You enjoy art (and music) as an end to itself and not just as a means to an end. This idea of things being consumed as an end in itself applies to many things. Take for example a piece of steak. You can eat any cooked piece of meat to get protein for you body (means to an end). Yet you are willing to work more to get more money to spend on a nice piece of steak in a romantic restaurant. This is an example of fuel for the soul. Man is not just an animal. He is an animal with a *volitional* consciousness. The fuel is to give his violation to do more.

The same reasoning can easily be applied to bitcoin too, since for some people acquiring bitcoin is an end to itself and not the means to an end, such as to gain wealth in the future. People may enjoy this feeling of being able to control their money through cryptographic keys, or they may like the fact that their share in the total supply of money either stays the same or increases, that it cannot be diluted and taken away by powerful corporations.

I disagree. There is the objective theory of value. That is, that which is valuable to your life is substantiated by objective fact. Take for example water. Water, in certain quantities, is objectively valuable to your life. You can pretend that it's not all you want, but you will be dead after a certain amount of time if you do not consume something that has water in it. This is an objective fact not subject to any subjective whim.

Things without which humans can't live are, by definition, objectively valuable. But they remain objectively valuable as long as in abundance. Once these objectively valuable things become scarce, humans start to value them subjectively, basing their reasoning on current circumstances. For example, water in the desert is valued more than that in places near rivers with fresh water. The objective value of water always remains the same - it helps you quench your thirst - but the subjective value fluctuates considerably.

[BlackHatCoiner]

However, the fact that I am anti-taxation and anti-fiat currency doesn't mean that I am oblivious to the fact that I must give the government those pieces of paper to live.

I'm not anti-taxation, you're just too gormless to understand me correctly. I'm anti-fascist, and become aggravated when I read phrases like:

This requirement is forced at the point of a gun.

And:

The US dollar is, at its core, a type of ticket that you must give to the government to allow you to live.

If you think the government is consisted of somewhat Gods who can enforce their sentiments unquestionably, restrict people arbitrarily and encroach every kind of civil right, then you're as anti-freedom as is humanly possible. It's justified to not see any value if you don't value freedom, privacy - human rights in general. But that's just your opinion of how this world works; and you can keep it, thanks.

There are millions of other people who don't think quite as you do. Those who value these virtues acknowledge why bitcoin is valuable. I don't gain censorship resistance whenever I use a credit card; the transaction can be reversed if the merchant is disapproved from the government. I don't gain privacy (or even pseudo-privacy) whenever I use a fiat currency online; financial institutions sell you out the sooner that is possible. I'm not protected by arbitrary inflation with fiat currency. You do get these with bitcoin; you have your rights respected.

And that's before we even begin on how it works more efficiently than the banking system. I can now send money across the world, with no intermediaries, nearly instantly, with nearly zero fees in a privacy-oriented way. If you still find no value, you're willingly ignoring the benefits. The problem lies with you.

[Leviathan.007]

That's very important to know where the real value of bitcoin comes from regardless of what kind of asset we are talking about the most important thing is supply and demand can change the value and price of everything, Imagine a share of stock from a famous company if none wants to buy it the seller should decrease the price and in the end, this will be worthless because of having no buyers and there can be the opposite of this story. Still, regarding bitcoin, because of many factors, the demand changes very fast and this can make the price a little bitcoin stable too.

[bitzizzix]

The market law of supply and demand, and bitcoin has value because people or we use it and see it as something of value and also limited, and people use it as an investment and can also be used as a transaction tool.

If people stop using bitcoin in any form then its price will drop drastically and therefore will not earn anything.
Simple answer to that question.

[Plaguedeath]

What does the real value you mean? are you refer to the cost to mine Bitcoin? well that's complicated but you can calculate itself based on the mining rigs, the speed, the maintenance and how much the electricity you paid. However it's not the real value, the real value is decentralized, no censorship, and fast worldwide transaction.

[markvin]

Many people treat Bitcoin as if it’s a value. People trade a lot of money to buy Bitcoins. People spend money to manage their Bitcoins. People spend time to learn about Bitcoins. Given how much time and money are being spent to buy, manage, and learn about Bitcoins; it makes sense to get an answer to the question, “Is Bitcoin a real value?” That is, is it something that helps sustain human life and is to be pursued for that reason?

In my research, I’ve identified four reasons that people give for why they consider Bitcoin to be a value.

The first reason is it’s useful as a type of currency. In fact, Bitcoin’s biggest value proposition is that it can be used as an alternative to fiat currency. This supposedly gives users more freedom than they would otherwise have. For example, if someone in China wants to trade their yuans for dollars without having to deal with governmental control over the banking infrastructure, they can trade yuans for Bitcoins and then trade those Bitcoins for dollars.

The second reason is that it’s finite. This means users should be protected from a third-party (i.e., the government) creating an unlimited number of additional Bitcoins, thus, diluting its value.

The third reason is that it costs energy in the form of human labor and electricity to produce. This can be referred to as the labor theory of value.

The fourth reason is that people believe it’s a value. This can be referred to as the subjective theory of value.

But I’ve found these reasons to be invalid.

First, the fact that Bitcoin can be used as a type of currency cannot justify its value. For something to be useful as a type of currency, it must satisfy all the following conditions:
1. It must be fungible.
2. It must be easily divisible.
3. It must be easy to exchange.
4. It must be a long-term stored value.

Bitcoin does meet the first three conditions.

The fourth condition means it must already be considered a value before it can be used as a currency. If there isn’t independent support for its having value, the claim that Bitcoin has value is circular. See below:
1. Bitcoin is a value because it can be used as a currency.
2. Bitcoin can be used as a currency because it is a [long-term stored] value.

Second, the fact that Bitcoin is finite doesn’t by itself make it a value. Scarcity does not determine whether something is a value or not. Scarcity only determines the price of something that is already determined to be a value because of another reason. For example, certain forms of toxic waste may be scarce but that doesn’t mean the waste is a value.

Third, the labor theory of value is wrong. That is, the fact that something costs energy (human or machine) to produce doesn’t make it a value. Digging a hole and refilling it again consumes energy but doesn’t create anything of value.

Fourth, the subjective theory of value is wrong. People can be defrauded. Theranos is a recent example of this. People can also be mistaken about value. The housing crash or the numerous failed investments in start-ups are clear examples of this. When people are defrauded or are mistaken, this means their belief in something being a value is wrong. Just because a lot of people believe that something is a value doesn’t make it so.

For something to be a value, the reason(s) must be real. Let’s use the US dollar as an example of something that has a real value. The US is a society where producers specialize and trade their products with one another to get what they need to survive. The US government requires traders to give them US dollars whenever a trade occurs (i.e., taxes). This requirement is forced at the point of a gun. The US dollar is, at its core, a type of ticket that you must give to the government to allow you to live. That makes the US dollar valuable to your life.

While it’s true that the US government can dilute the purchasing power of the US dollar, that doesn’t mean that it has no real value right now. A potential is not the same thing as an actual. As of now, the US government still exists, the massive capital infrastructure under its jurisdiction still exists, and its ability to tax trades between organizations or people who use this capital infrastructure is still strong. This is the basis for the US dollar’s real value.

Bitcoin has no such basis or any other basis. Without a valid basis to justify why Bitcoin has real value, the proper default position to take is to assume that Bitcoin has no real value.

Bitcoin has more then one utility.

[Razmirraz]

Fundamentally, bitcoin is not a currency, notit scalable means of payment, and it is not a stable store of value. If you ask Does Bitcoin have real value? I would answer Bitcoin fundamental value is ZERO.
Then the question arises again What exactly makes traders and investors believe Bitcoin has value? Here we need to explore and compare the nature of Bitcoin (crypto asset) with assets that are considered similar, such as gold and fiat currencies.

GOLD.
Gold has intrinsic value and can be used as a store of value so that the whole world accept gold as an investment asset. When someone buys gold, he understands very well that anyone will recognize and accept gold, because what he buys is a metal that has value.

FIAT CURRENCIES
Basically, fiat currencies like Bitcoin (crypto asset) has no intrinsic value. However, paper currency is believed to be a legal tender and a store of value because its existence is recognized by the state. So it's the country that makes paper currency worth it.

Conclusion from my post:
which determines whether or not there is value in the medium of exchange, not in the object being exchanged. The position of Bitcoin (crypto asset) is one level below fiat currencies, Let alone have intrinsic value, physical form alone does not exist. Bitcoin only has a digital form, recorded, and difficult to manipulate due to advanced blockchain technology.

[kryptqnick]

I believe the question of real value is not as simple as it looks. Do computers have real value? To many people, they do, but there are also the elderly, for instance, who live well without computers and to them PCs are worthless. Does a smartphone have real value? It does if you know how to use it, and if you live in a place where you have stable access to electricity. Then there's food, which generally has value. But meat is of no value to vegans, and a pack of rice isn't of value if you are in a war zone, living underground and unable to cook on fire. And then no more abstract things, like securities, debt trading and stuff. Do they have value? Not really, they're too far from the physical things. And does fiat have value? It doesn't, it's just numbers on a screen or a bunch of banknotes.
My point is, value is negotiable and dependent on the people and the circumstances. There are plenty of people to whom Bitcoin has no value, but there are also at least dozens of millions who believe in its value and are ready to exchange it for a certain value, which is all that matters.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Fundamentally, bitcoin is not a currency

You're wrong, because it's been 2 years and I'm using it normally as a currency. And so are millions of others. Therefore, this assertion is invalid.

notit scalable means of payment

That is also not true. We've developed off-chain solutions for this very purpose, such as the Lightning Network.

and it is not a stable store of value

There's a big depends lying here. I'm buying bitcoin since the early 2020, and I can tell you that not only it has managed to store that value, but I'm also experiencing decent capital gains too. Someone who bought at $68,000 and wants to spend it currently has, definitely, not had the same luck.

When someone buys gold, he understands very well that anyone will recognize and accept gold

This is false. I know no merchants that accept gold, except those who sell it (e.g., licensing pawnbrokers). On the other hand, bitcoin is accepted from a variety of merchants.

The position of Bitcoin (crypto asset) is one level below fiat currencies, Let alone have intrinsic value, physical form alone does not exist.

It's far better than fiat currency in a number of ways, few of which I've written in this very page:

I can now send money across the world, with no intermediaries, nearly instantly, with nearly zero fees in a privacy-oriented way. If you still find no value, you're willingly ignoring the benefits. The problem lies with you.

[TheGreatPython]

values and value are different categories.

I completely agree. I was talking about the economic value.

think of the sentiment values(aesthetic/desire/demand/provenance) of art as the values(utility/function/features) of houses and bitcoin.

I've picked art because its economic value is questioned by many. (And Bitcoin value keeps being questioned, as you can see).
I cannot argue that houses do hold economic value, but those value is not questioned (or at least not as heavily as art).

There is both a difference, and there is also a similarities between them. First of all, Mona Lisa has a value right?

It is certainly a higher value than the paint used or the paper it was painted on, it has a value more than most other paintings I assume, don't know if it is the most expensive one, and yet it is certainly not the best painting in the world by a mile, we have seen much much better ones if we are talking about talent or how hard it is, there are paintings out there even leonardo da vinci can't paint, and yet Mona Lisa worths more than them, why? What makes it more valuable if that's the case? The answer to that, is the same as why bitcoin is this much valuable.

[BlackHatCoiner]

There is both a difference, and there is also a similarities between them. First of all, Mona Lisa has a value right?

Note that there are different kinds of values. There's market value, personal value, intrinsic value, objective value that's measured with usefulness etc. Mona Lisa does have a high value, but not necessarily intrinsic or objective. On the other hand, bitcoin does have usefulness and IMO, its objective value is higher than its market value.

Mona Liza and bitcoin is not a good analogy, in any case.

[tadamichi]

Maybe there isn’t even an objective way to quantify value, even tho there’s many different kinds of values. Value is never a constant, it changes over time. Even the most stable store of value in humankind, gold, doesn’t have a fixed value, not even a market cap is ever constant. So you could ask what is real value in the first place.

Volatility indicates subjectivity, shouldn’t a „real value“ be a constant? And im not just referring to market prices here. You can write a perfect exam and get 10 different grades, depending on who evaluates you. The human mind isn’t objective, but we will be the ones to decide what has value and what not. If it wouldn’t be our subjective decisions that determine value, we wouldn’t even be here asking the question now, because we already knew.

To me Bitcoin might be priceless, to others it might be worthless. But then the sum of evalutions of all people create an average, that then determines, how much value is assigned to it at this moment in time, and from this a consensus starts to form and this thing will be chosen over things more often(the higher the average). The design behind Bitcoin is objectively superior to fiat for enabling universal trade(this is the main task of money), so we can assume more and more rational actors will deem it valuable in the future. But ofc there’s more factors on how people will evaluate it, each subjectively different and endless in variation and the sum doesn’t need to be rational.

In conclusion: it might be better to think about, if other people will find it valuable, than if the thing itself is physically valuable(even tho physical properties can influence other peoples perception), because people will form the value in the end.

Fourth, the subjective theory of value is wrong. People can be defrauded. Theranos is a recent example of this. People can also be mistaken about value. The housing crash or the numerous failed investments in start-ups are clear examples of this. When people are defrauded or are mistaken, this means their belief in something being a value is wrong. Just because a lot of people believe that something is a value doesn’t make it so.

Subjective value doesn’t mean that an individual can’t overvalue something, in this case their individual subjective value was higher than the average value the market assigned to it, and they lost. Which strengthens the conclusion i made. The housing crash was also caused by assigning too much subjective value into the credibility of banks and fiat, something that wasn’t deserved. Assigning subjective value isn’t free, it has real life consequences and so individuals have to constantly reassign their evaluation for things to succeed. Because this is the basis of real life decisions in the end.

The whole world can think im better than messi, but if we’re actually playing each other and he keeps beating me, this is likely to change. They can even bet money on it and loose. There is an incentive to be rational and objective, to not constantly loose. Giving trust for free can be an expensive gift, like in the housing crisis. If you trusted the market to not be easily breakable in the first place, your subjective decision was based on false assumptions.

[reasonspace]

Imagine a share of stock from a famous company if none wants to buy it the seller should decrease the price and in the end, this will be worthless because of having no buyers and there can be the opposite of this story.

If you own stock in a company, you are an owner of that company. This means the profits that the company produces belong to you. This is a value independent of whether others want to pay you money for that stock or not.

GOLD.
Gold has intrinsic value and can be used as a store of value so that the whole world accept gold as an investment asset. When someone buys gold, he understands very well that anyone will recognize and accept gold, because what he buys is a metal that has value.

There's no such thing as intrinsic value. That is, there is no such thing as value that's independent of a valuer. That is, to say that something is a value, you must identify "to whom" and for "what purpose?" To say that something is an objective value, you must be able to identify the facts in reality (vs. feelings) as to why it serves that purpose for that individual.

Gold has multiple objective values. It has functional values in the form of conductor, tooth fillings, etc. But gold also has an aesthetic value too. For more on the aesthetic value of gold, please refer to this article. https://www.forbes.com/sites/harrybinswanger/2013/11/30/in-praise-of-gold-not-a-barbarous-relic-but-a-spiritual-value

I believe the question of real value is not as simple as it looks. Do computers have real value? To many people, they do, but there are also the elderly, for instance, who live well without computers and to them PCs are worthless. Does a smartphone have real value? It does if you know how to use it, and if you live in a place where you have stable access to electricity. Then there's food, which generally has value. But meat is of no value to vegans, and a pack of rice isn't of value if you are in a war zone, living underground and unable to cook on fire. And then no more abstract things, like securities, debt trading and stuff. Do they have value? Not really, they're too far from the physical things. And does fiat have value? It doesn't, it's just numbers on a screen or a bunch of banknotes.
My point is, value is negotiable and dependent on the people and the circumstances. There are plenty of people to whom Bitcoin has no value, but there are also at least dozens of millions who believe in its value and are ready to exchange it for a certain value, which is all that matters.

I think that this is a great recognition of value as being dependent on a valuer. However, there is a difference between an objective value (value dependent on purpose & facts) and subjective value (value independent on facts). What this means is that just because someone considers something to be a value to them doesn't mean that it is. People can be defrauded or mistaken.

Stocks can be analyzed by looking at performance of the company, state of the market and so on, and then calculating how much should they be worth, based on expected profit, but if a company lies about the state of its operations, you will get defrauded, even though you used math to calculate "objective" value.

Math doesn't make an idea objective. Objectivity doesn't mean "using logic or math". It means "volitional adherence to reality". It means turning your mind towards reality to identify facts and use them in your evaluations. Logic (or math) is a necessary but insufficient condition for achieving objectivity.

The fact that you can be defrauded doesn't mean that facts don't exist, or you don't try to use your best judgment and perform due diligence to ensure that what you think is true actually is true. That's what it means to be objective.