Be careful what you wish for, it might happen

[tadamichi]

The people that bought Bitcoin very early were already higher in the Pyramid than general since they owned a computer and had some (advanced) IT knowledge. From there on the distribution was probably more an average of society.

Also imagine there will still be a big boom ahead. New entrants will probably invest like 0,1btc while rich people will start with a full one. Same risk profile but bigger pockets

But Bitcoin will still preserve a workers savings over time, something fiat can’t do. Anyone has the opportunity to go in right now at the same price, yet a lot of people are spending more time defending fiat or demanding crazy policies(not you), than to take some actions that can benefit their future. It’s a lost cause to reach even distribution in a free market, because people aren’t rational enough to go in early. These earlier risk takers made it possible in the first place and later on they pay the same price as everyone else. There needs to be some incentive to build something.

The people that are rich later on will also need to start using their coins in real economic activity/ spending if they want to benefit from it, as there is no mechanism to create new coins that can make them richer without work or risk like in fiat. Better distribution will occur naturally when thiers law starts coming into play and Bitcoin will be used as a medium of exchange.

Im the case many rich people don’t use their coins at all, they’re like lost coins and out of the circulation, which also benefits the average individual again, as their coins in circulation will become more valuable.

There is unique things about a Bitcoin economy that benefits the average person, they won’t get purely exploited like in fiat. This is about fixing money and not getting rich, not everyone can be rich in the first place, yet Bitcoin still smh protects the interests of the individual again.

You would take away fiat that is controlled by Government and replace it with Bitcoin. Government would never actively allow this so in a Bitcoin world there would be some deconnection from central authority.

For me Bitcoin and reduction of government involvement would go hand in hand. Maybe not in extremes in the beginning but would be a logic consequence

A government that serves its people should have no fears of abandonment, maybe they should rethink who they really wanna serve.

[_BlackStar]

Bitcoin is expected to disrupt world economics and redistribute wealth where it ordinarily wouldn't go to. It's succeeding in this, I must say. It's granting financial independence to a whole lot of people. If that's the "disbalance" you're talking about then I think it should do more of that.

Yes, bitcoin has given users the freedom to manage their finances independently. It is like a bank in our hands and every bitcoin user who has complete control over his wallet is the owner of that bank. Our Bitcoin is our rule, and it's the opposite of the fiat system.

We can't force the government to agree to everything we want about bitcoin, that's impossible because bitcoin is basically not a currency that governments really expect to be better than fiat. Decentralization and centralization will never be the same, they will continue to be opposites. But bitcoin has offered us a better option as a means of payment.

[Bitstar_coin]

Something that always strikes me is that people underestimate the impact of a decentralized world. Especially more vulnerable people that depend on society for ‘survival’.

I get a lot of power to the people vibes while I’m not sure that a lot of people are ready for this.

How I’m experiencing things today (Simplified) :

- I pay more than 50% taxes —> I have no choice
- unemployment is supported by basic income

Basically I’m forced to share some wealth to keep society running

Imagine now a decentralized society :

- my connection with an employer will be direct and I will pay no taxes —> I have a choice
- No support for unemployment. Maybe this will stimulate more people to work but will also create some issues

Basically stronger people will become stronger and people suffering will suffer more.

Im sure Im cutting some corners here but the principle stays afloat. Won’t Bitcoin create more disbalance while a lot of people are claiming the opposite.

You are not exactly far from the truth with the whole decentralization talk. I agree with decentralization to some extent or should say to certain aspects of living and not all otherwise there will be a lot of oppression from the strong to the weak.
Well i guess what people mostly are looking for is decentralized financial system where people can have total control of their funds and not a decentralized world because that will be a different ball game if you take a sec to think about the disadvantages as against the advantages.

[virasisog]

Bitcoin is expected to disrupt world economics and redistribute wealth where it ordinarily wouldn't go to. It's succeeding in this, I must say. It's granting financial independence to a whole lot of people. If that's the "disbalance" you're talking about then I think it should do more of that.

Yes, bitcoin has given users the freedom to manage their finances independently. It is like a bank in our hands and every bitcoin user who has complete control over his wallet is the owner of that bank. Our Bitcoin is our rule, and it's the opposite of the fiat system.

We can't force the government to agree to everything we want about bitcoin, that's impossible because bitcoin is basically not a currency that governments really expect to be better than fiat. Decentralization and centralization will never be the same, they will continue to be opposites. But bitcoin has offered us a better option as a means of payment.

The sad thing is, that the government will continue to tax us no matter where we keep our assets or where we use Bitcoin as a currency. Taxing is everywhere and is present in every purchase that we do because we all know that businesses that sell our daily necessities don't accept Bitcoin is still regulated by the government. If there will be more establishments and businesses that will accept Bitcoin, I think we can quite feel the financial freedom that we want.

[Jemzx00]

Yes, bitcoin has given users the freedom to manage their finances independently. It is like a bank in our hands and every bitcoin user who has complete control over his wallet is the owner of that bank. Our Bitcoin is our rule, and it's the opposite of the fiat system.

We can't force the government to agree to everything we want about bitcoin, that's impossible because bitcoin is basically not a currency that governments really expect to be better than fiat. Decentralization and centralization will never be the same, they will continue to be opposites. But bitcoin has offered us a better option as a means of payment.

The sad thing is, that the government will continue to tax us no matter where we keep our assets or where we use Bitcoin as a currency. Taxing is everywhere and is present in every purchase that we do because we all know that businesses that sell our daily necessities don't accept Bitcoin is still regulated by the government. If there will be more establishments and businesses that will accept Bitcoin, I think we can quite feel the financial freedom that we want.

Government taxation is necessary to any country as it is where the government of any country gets it's fund to run it's nation. Unfortunately, crypto taxation is quite confusing especially for investors as you cannot tax something that is a potential profit. This is why crypto regulations has been set to better managed each and everyone's crypto assets.

Also, even if businesses and establishments with accept bitcoin as a payment method, it will still require to be taxed since it will be included on their tax filing. But still, having an option to pay thru bitcoin and other crypto, it will be a good thing as massive adoption will be much more achieved.

[sbrys]

Something that always strikes me is that people underestimate the impact of a decentralized world. Especially more vulnerable people that depend on society for ‘survival’.

I get a lot of power to the people vibes while I’m not sure that a lot of people are ready for this.

How I’m experiencing things today (Simplified) :

- I pay more than 50% taxes —> I have no choice
- unemployment is supported by basic income

Basically I’m forced to share some wealth to keep society running

Imagine now a decentralized society :

- my connection with an employer will be direct and I will pay no taxes —> I have a choice
- No support for unemployment. Maybe this will stimulate more people to work but will also create some issues

Basically stronger people will become stronger and people suffering will suffer more.

Im sure Im cutting some corners here but the principle stays afloat. Won’t Bitcoin create more disbalance while a lot of people are claiming the opposite.

You are not exactly far from the truth with the whole decentralization talk. I agree with decentralization to some extent or should say to certain aspects of living and not all otherwise there will be a lot of oppression from the strong to the weak.
Well i guess what people mostly are looking for is decentralized financial system where people can have total control of their funds and not a decentralized world because that will be a different ball game if you take a sec to think about the disadvantages as against the advantages.

Indeed I fully agree people are looking for only a decentralized payment system but to me that’s hard to achieve without further decentralization. It can coexist but only when it’s in the ‘gimmick phase’ and not
Being the backbone of economy.

Hence also the title for this topic. People wish for a payment system but to me they have to sacrifice some other things in order to achieve what they are wishing for

[Anonylz]

The sad thing is, that the government will continue to tax us no matter where we keep our assets or where we use Bitcoin as a currency. Taxing is everywhere and is present in every purchase that we do because we all know that businesses that sell our daily necessities don't accept Bitcoin is still regulated by the government. If there will be more establishments and businesses that will accept Bitcoin, I think we can quite feel the financial freedom that we want.

There is nothing sad about paying taxes especially when this tax money is being used to provide all the required public services that enable you as a citizen of that state or country to enjoy peace and security.
Assuming you are living in a country full of insecurities as a result of government negligence, you will not be able to enjoy having your btc with you because you won't feel secure enough. Also if people don't pay tax and the government can not afford to provide the needed security, having financial freedom will be meaningless.
You can only be sad when you pay tax and the money is not utilized in the right way.

[sbrys]

The sad thing is, that the government will continue to tax us no matter where we keep our assets or where we use Bitcoin as a currency. Taxing is everywhere and is present in every purchase that we do because we all know that businesses that sell our daily necessities don't accept Bitcoin is still regulated by the government. If there will be more establishments and businesses that will accept Bitcoin, I think we can quite feel the financial freedom that we want.

There is nothing sad about paying taxes especially when this tax money is being used to provide all the required public services that enable you as a citizen of that state or country to enjoy peace and security.
Assuming you are living in a country full of insecurities as a result of government negligence, you will not be able to enjoy having your btc with you because you won't feel secure enough. Also if people don't pay tax and the government can not afford to provide the needed security, having financial freedom will be meaningless.
You can only be sad when you pay tax and the money is not utilized in the right way.

There is indeed nothing wrong with taxes used for public services in a smart way. It helps all individuals and society as a whole.

Problem is with a decentralized payment system governments will lose track of payment flows and it will be much more difficult to tax. Possibilities to dodge taxes will be endless.

Also it will be very hard to perform efficient monetary policies when there is nobody in charge of the macro economic movements. Money printing can be a bitch but it can also give air to your economy

[amishmanish]

you are thinking too deep, too early. Who says bitcoin income is not taxed. In many countries they are taxed. Decentralization will help to make systems more efficient and more robust. It has nothing to di with taxes. Infact in long run it will help to reduce corruption, which is primarily in fiat currency. Kenya is a poor country, but you see people over there are embracing crypto at a faster pace.Its helping them to come out of their poverty

[sbrys]

you are thinking too deep, too early. Who says bitcoin income is not taxed. In many countries they are taxed. Decentralization will help to make systems more efficient and more robust. It has nothing to di with taxes. Infact in long run it will help to reduce corruption, which is primarily in fiat currency. Kenya is a poor country, but you see people over there are embracing crypto at a faster pace.Its helping them to come out of their poverty

I’m indeed biased from my side of the world. I can understand the upside in other parts of the world where it can bring more stability.

I just think it will be harder to tax as it will be harder to trace. Here in Belgium it’s almost a national sport to dodge taxes (not me 😊) so I can imagine it would be even worse.

But indeed it’s not a problem of today or tomorrow but I like to analyze future development and behaviours 😊

[minime0105]

Wishing people gold is another alternative for someone to progress and these and other evidence to show that you really love the person that you are wishing good this is applicable or is the same thing that happen when you wish someone bad into cryptocurrency investment and if the person proceeds to win or profit in your wish automatically the person will be good with you so I have not seen anything wrong wishing somebody what is good because everybody is expecting good thing

[Gyfts]

You can have taxes in a decentralized financial society. The government would compel you to pay taxes regardless if they have control over your finances or not. They'd just show up to your front doorstep with a gun and threaten you with violence or jail until you comply.

I'm not one of those "taxation is theft" type of people. The government serves the reasonable purpose of collecting taxes. Crypto might increase the burden of the government to collect taxes, but that's not something I'm concerned about. They already have immense power. Forcing them to jump through a few hoops for folks that don't willingly comply isn't the end of the world.

[tadamichi]

There is indeed nothing wrong with taxes used for public services in a smart way. It helps all individuals and society as a whole.

Problem is with a decentralized payment system governments will lose track of payment flows and it will be much more difficult to tax. Possibilities to dodge taxes will be endless.

Bitcoins ledger is public and any transaction is saved forever. There isn’t more transparency than this. Not good to evade taxes/ criminal activities as the proof will be there forever for law enforcement. It will be hard for criminals to hide evidences, when the police will check them in person. They already have all the tools in their disposal to spy on citizens. Even networks like lightning aren’t completely private and there can still be evidence found there, if they really check criminals. Pseudonymity of Bitcoin is good to protect regular citizens right to privacy, but it won’t hide real criminal activities. Police will have enough evidence to work with, that can’t easily be destroyed. Also most Bitcoin is linked to some real id on centralized exchanges, this completely removes any privacy and is a real problem.

Also it will be very hard to perform efficient monetary policies when there is nobody in charge of the macro economic movements. Money printing can be a bitch but it can also give air to your economy

Let me bring in the counter argument again. Let’s evaluate monetary policy first. The end result is always printing more money and delaying problems for generations, which makes them worse, than just having solved them earlier. It never really solved a problem in the first place. Japan has delayed it’s problems from the last century till now. Now they’re bigger than ever and broken beyond repair. Europe is in the same boat now.

Who is doing the policy?
Some people in backdoors that haven’t even been elected, there’s no way to hold them accountable for anything. You can’t vote them in or out, there’s also no realistic way to go to court against them.

Are they really that capable?
I doubt it, there’s no solved problem in their track record. Their criminal record is bigger than actual work being done. Let’s not look at, if they seem knowledgeable or professional, but just at their track record in office: there’s nothing to show, except broken rules, criminal activity that isn’t punished and having made issues worse.

What is the result?
Entire governments/ corporations became dependent on printed money to pay for their expenses/ to not go bankrupt. Bailout after bailout. They’re not able to survive in the free market anymore. It’s like someone being on drugs. We left economics and entered central planning. Which every economist knows is a sin that is dangerous. You can’t heal a drug addict by giving him more drugs for generations, problems have to actually be solved.

If we keep in mind now of who is actually running monetary policy, what is safer? Putting them into a train that they can’t control themselves, but is on a safe track - or giving them a sports cars that they can drive into any direction they want, but we know they won’t follow any traffic rules when they don’t want to. Which of these two options is less likely to crash? Which of these options will be safer to the population?

Addition: States still have the ability to issue their own currencies with forced value attached to it and their own monetary policies, regardless how successful Bitcoin is. But the difference is now that they have compete with a superior form of currency. If they mess up their policies and no one wants to use their currency, it’s their own fault, not Bitcoins. In the case they want to compete with Bitcoin, you will notice that they can’t do that much different from Bitcoin in the first place. So it might be better to just stick to Bitcoin directly. If they force value to a weaker form of currency they will just trigger greshams law again, and people will hoard Bitcoin and use the weaker currency in circulation. Until thiers law comes into play and no one wants to use this currency anymore and Bitcoin becomes the medium of exchange again. This cycle repeats as long as they will introduce bad currencies. Ultimately the best form of money needs to be resistant to bad policy, that’s why no centralized currency will ever be able to outperform a decentralized one. Just sticking to Bitcoin might be the most efficient approach.
 

[sbrys]

Bitcoins ledger is public and any transaction is saved forever. There isn’t more transparency than this. Not good to evade taxes/ criminal activities as the proof will be there forever for law enforcement. It will be hard for criminals to hide evidences, when the police will check them in person. They already have all the tools in their disposal to spy on citizens. Even networks like lightning aren’t completely private and there can still be evidence found there, if they really check criminals. Pseudonymity of Bitcoin is good to protect regular citizens right to privacy, but it won’t hide real criminal activities. Police will have enough evidence to work with, that can’t easily be destroyed. Also most Bitcoin is linked to some real id on centralized exchanges, this completely removes any privacy and is a real problem.

The Ledger is indeed public but first they need to link a person to the transaction. This can be rather hard if a person is managing this well. And if you leave some room to people they will use it

Regarding Monetary Policy you are fully right. At best the people performing it are making the wrong decisions and politicians just want to optimize their elected period. This should be performed by people with a different time period and only in exceptional times

Image Corona without this policy. Lots of businesses would have gone bankrupt and you would again be in the suffering story…

[tadamichi]

The Ledger is indeed public but first they need to link a person to the transaction. This can be rather hard if a person is managing this well. And if you leave some room to people they will use it

They just need their xpubs and can see all their transaction history. It would be easy for the police to get this in some way. Bitcoin is used less for criminal activity than legacy finance, there was research about this. Also they’re catching criminals all the time and confiscating their Bitcoin. There’s too many traces for criminals to be safe from law enforcement, Bitcoin is built for people not criminals.

Regarding Monetary Policy you are fully right. At best the people performing it are making the wrong decisions and politicians just want to optimize their elected period. This should be performed by people with a different time period and only in exceptional times

Agree, i just don’t believe in reform inside the system itself anymore.

Image Corona without this policy. Lots of businesses would have gone bankrupt and you would again be in the suffering story…

This could be handled in a no money printing way, if the economy would still be healthy. They could get loans or taxes from not printed money. The government can still have programs to save the economy, they just can’t do it all the time when it’s not actually necessary, as they wouldn’t be able to pay back debts anymore when they do it all the time when it’s not actually necessary. Hard money brings back the necessity to make smart decisions.

[Kakmakr]

Something that always strikes me is that people underestimate the impact of a decentralized world. Especially more vulnerable people that depend on society for ‘survival’.

I get a lot of power to the people vibes while I’m not sure that a lot of people are ready for this.

How I’m experiencing things today (Simplified) :

- I pay more than 50% taxes —> I have no choice
- unemployment is supported by basic income

Basically I’m forced to share some wealth to keep society running

Imagine now a decentralized society :

- my connection with an employer will be direct and I will pay no taxes —> I have a choice
- No support for unemployment. Maybe this will stimulate more people to work but will also create some issues

Basically stronger people will become stronger and people suffering will suffer more.

Im sure Im cutting some corners here but the principle stays afloat. Won’t Bitcoin create more disbalance while a lot of people are claiming the opposite.

Decentralization does not guarantee that people will not pay any taxes. You cannot profit with Crypto currency and then convert that to Fiat and then spend that and not expect the tax agencies not to pick up that there are money going through your account. 

No business will allow big purchases with Crypto currencies, without some paper work that needs to be done. (Invoices / Transfer of ownership etc...) Also, if people do not pay taxes.... services cannot be rendered..... and hunger will increase... so poor people will turn to crime to survive. 

[sbrys]

Something that always strikes me is that people underestimate the impact of a decentralized world. Especially more vulnerable people that depend on society for ‘survival’.

I get a lot of power to the people vibes while I’m not sure that a lot of people are ready for this.

How I’m experiencing things today (Simplified) :

- I pay more than 50% taxes —> I have no choice
- unemployment is supported by basic income

Basically I’m forced to share some wealth to keep society running

Imagine now a decentralized society :

- my connection with an employer will be direct and I will pay no taxes —> I have a choice
- No support for unemployment. Maybe this will stimulate more people to work but will also create some issues

Basically stronger people will become stronger and people suffering will suffer more.

Im sure Im cutting some corners here but the principle stays afloat. Won’t Bitcoin create more disbalance while a lot of people are claiming the opposite.

Decentralization does not guarantee that people will not pay any taxes. You cannot profit with Crypto currency and then convert that to Fiat and then spend that and not expect the tax agencies not to pick up that there are money going through your account. 

No business will allow big purchases with Crypto currencies, without some paper work that needs to be done. (Invoices / Transfer of ownership etc...) Also, if people do not pay taxes.... services cannot be rendered..... and hunger will increase... so poor people will turn to crime to survive. 

In a crypto world you would not go through a bank account you would just use your crypto 😁

It all depends of the model that will be dominant if businesses will accept crypto or not. Currently that would be the case but that could change quickly. Basically if most economic actors decide it will be crypto, it will be crypto.

Indeed very true services would not be guaranteed anymore with a lot of consequences.

[ChrisPop]

Imagine now a decentralized society :

- my connection with an employer will be direct and I will pay no taxes —> I have a choice
- No support for unemployment. Maybe this will stimulate more people to work but will also create some issues

Basically stronger people will become stronger and people suffering will suffer more.

No, this is not right. A completely decentralized society is an utopian dream. Going to the roots we as humans are social creatures. We need to leave in society. You can't just condemn the ones who were born with lower intelligence or who are handicaped in any way. That is why we need to pay taxes  --> to maintain somehow of an equilibrium in the society + fund public property and services like police, firemen, doctors, etc.

Polarization of society classes creates conflicts, very ugly ones I might add. I think the best way is to find a balance between centralization and decentralization. The financial system is especially broken creating big problems so Bitcoin might be the solution for it, indeed.

[sbrys]

Imagine now a decentralized society :

- my connection with an employer will be direct and I will pay no taxes —> I have a choice
- No support for unemployment. Maybe this will stimulate more people to work but will also create some issues

Basically stronger people will become stronger and people suffering will suffer more.

No, this is not right. A completely decentralized society is an utopian dream. Going to the roots we as humans are social creatures. We need to leave in society. You can't just condemn the ones who were born with lower intelligence or who are handicaped in any way. That is why we need to pay taxes  --> to maintain somehow of an equilibrium in the society + fund public property and services like police, firemen, doctors, etc.

Polarization of society classes creates conflicts, very ugly ones I might add. I think the best way is to find a balance between centralization and decentralization. The financial system is especially broken creating big problems so Bitcoin might be the solution for it, indeed.

I fully agree !

My point is I think a lot of people don’t realize this. I see a lot of protests against governments for the sake of protest. Bitcoin is also used a lot as a ‘the people will take over’ argument. Biggest shouters are often the ones that depend the most on them.

[tadamichi]

My point is I think a lot of people don’t realize this. I see a lot of protests against governments for the sake of protest. Bitcoin is also used a lot as a ‘the people will take over’ argument. Biggest shouters are often the ones that depend the most on them.

True af, they might also be shouting for something they dont really understand. Just having no rules wont better their position. We need some kind of balance indeed, and im fully convinced that people are the strongest when they actually work together, not if we just abolish everything just for the sake of decentralization. This is the trap many people fall into, just because one thing is successful, theyre trying to apply its properties to everything, even tho it may not be fitting.

I think if we can improve the financial system and make it sane again, much of the political radicality will be reduced, as people will be more busy with their lifes again and building something nice, because it will actually be possible for many people again. Everything tends to get politicized when people are struggling with their well being, we saw this in the 30s in europe etc. Thats why im also deeply disappointed by the economists in charge, they know this and yet just ignore it for whatever reason. I would expect them to take some responsibility, as theyre the ones that can prevent a lot of suffering.

But i must also say the state isn’t really helping here, they just use every crisis for themselves and try to paint anyone who opens their mouth in a bad light. This is actually strengthening the points the people who want to abolish the government make. They’re just making it worse, instead of bringing people together again.