Clearing my trust list

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

is to make it less "grandfathered" by giving newer users a chance to reach it too.

It still become less "grandfathered" and give chances to newer users. I am working to the dry run in my imagination. I will try to elaborate the idea in meta section once I am happy with it.

my DT1-election ranking

Just clearing my understanding. These are the users who are eligible to be DT1 but not in the current DT1 list, in other words they are not the 100 users who are in DT1 in the running month's corn job.

See if they have good trust ratings and good trust lists, and add them to your Trust list.

Yes but it's not stopping the abusers to use the loophole of the current DefautTrust system.

[1714707432]

1714707432

[1714707432]

1714707432

[JollyGood]

I did the same a week ago.  

This might be something worth considering as there is a method to the madness  

I did the same thing like a year ago, with the low priority intention to eventually rebuild my inclusions list, but yet haven’t..

You must have been one of the first to have a total clear out of the list. I recall one other member doing so a couple of years ago.

Will you ever get round to rebuilding it or has the current state of play at how badly the system is broken keeping it a low priority?

But I didn't understand, could any of the people who participated here clarify a bit more, since drama was talked about: as an example, do you consider JollyGood to be the problem on DT1 or Royse777? Because one is tagging the other for scamming, and the other is accusing the first of abusing the trust system. So you can't say both, because Royse777 is either a scammer or he isn't. You can't just say "well, let's stay neutral and forget about it, nothing to see here".

Everybody is expressing their views and each has their own reasons for doing so.

I just have the feeling though that the few voices left talking against and tagging scammers are about to get booted out from DT1.

I mentioned in a different thread the feedback, trust and merit system needs a complete overhaul.

After looking at how several cliques and trolls manipulate the system to suit their own agenda, it still clear it cannot continue as it currently does yet still be considered as an appropriate barometer because it quote clearly is not.

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

After looking at how several cliques and trolls manipulate the system to suit their own agenda

May be we can have a game and can pass it to others. Then JollyGood will eventually open the box with the users he considers cliques and trolls.

I propose these cliques and trolls are  BitcoinGirl.Club, NeuroticFish, tranthidung, LoyceV, Poker Player, dragonvslinux, DireWolfM14, dkbit98, The Pharmacist.

PS: I am not calling out anyone please don't take it that way. You are free to guess the cliques and trolls.

[LoyceV]

my DT1-election ranking

Just clearing my understanding. These are the users who are eligible to be DT1 but not in the current DT1 list, in other words they are not the 100 users who are in DT1 in the running month's corn job.

See this topic for the criteria I used (and the ones I ignored).
Some of the users in the list are currently on DT1 already.

See if they have good trust ratings and good trust lists, and add them to your Trust list.

Yes but it's not stopping the abusers to use the loophole of the current DefautTrust system.

It's a game of numbers: if more good users are eligible, less abusers reach DT1. If all good users quit, only the abusers are left.

[NeuroticFish]

After looking at how several cliques and trolls manipulate the system to suit their own agenda

This is a valid point and, I don't know, maybe we should not wait for a "divine intervention" to fix this (although maybe a differentiation would be needed between trusting and empowering users).
Because while some fight each other and may have both good intentions (yes, I know that in this context this statement can explode), some real trolls simply get stronger. I won't tell names since I don't have solid proof, so it's just a hunch.
Maybe a new topic in Meta is needed to get ideas how to use better the current trust system. One idea that came into my mind was to select carefully a very short list of users we want to "empower". Or maybe it should be as wide as possible?!

[dkbit98]

I decided to take a bit of advice and clear my trust list. dkbit98 made a suggestion and while I do not think it would force theymos to do anything, I do think DT isn't really a prestigious position to hold any longer. Also a bit tired of the drama and manipulation that is seen by users when it comes to DT. I may change my mind later but for now my trust list is empty. My distrust list still exists for now.

I am thinking of doing the same thing, but I would like if other members could do the same if they think DT system is currently broken.
EDIT: done, I cleaned my trust list also, and I will consider making new one after (possible) DT theymos reform.

It's worse than that: if the people who use the Trust system correctly drop out, that leaves the ones who shouldn't be on DT1. Maybe that does indeed force theymos to make changes, but it's probably better to suggest how to improve it directly. Less DT1-members isn't going to change much, and requiring more inclusions for DT2 hasn't been implemented for years. So like any democracy, as bad as it is, it's the best we can get.

I think some people (not exactly sure who) made good suggestions before to reduce number of DT members and make it harder to become DT2 member.
Lot's of talking and nothing changed so theymos probably didn't saw it, or didn't think it was something important.
I don't mind at all if only DT wannabes stay in DT1 for some time.

This is a valid point and, I don't know, maybe we should not wait for a "divine intervention" to fix this

Guy who is complaining that trolls manipulate the system for their own agenda, has become one of the worst manipulators and witch/ghost hunters in this forum.

[LoyceV]

EDIT: done, I cleaned my trust list also, and I will consider making new one after (possible) DT theymos reform.

Maybe, in a BOFH moment, theymos will reform DT1 by handpicking you back

Seriously though:

I am never completely tied to anything, but let's try this for at least a few months and see how it works.

But without offering a better system, what do you expect theymos to do?

If this is to make a point that DT needs fixing, it should be in Meta, not Reputation.

[eddie13]

I don’t think it’s so broken..
Things are sorting themselves out as intended are they not?

It’s just mediocre because that’s how democracy with mediocre inputs work.. You get mediocre outputs..
It’s not exactly a group of highly intelligent philosophers of a similar doctrine..

Democracy also slow and has a lot of debate before any decision is made and stuck with.. Not very efficient..

All from such varied cultures/beliefs from strict Islamic societies to atheist anarchists and communists what have you..
Diversity!

Almost a miracle anything gets done at all and it’s not all out war..

[JollyGood]

After looking at how several cliques and trolls manipulate the system to suit their own agenda

This is a valid point and, I don't know, maybe we should not wait for a "divine intervention" to fix this (although maybe a differentiation would be needed between trusting and empowering users).

I think theymos would make amendments and modifications to the forum structure as long as he thought it was something that was needed. Plenty of members do think it should be fixed because clearly it has been open to abuse by trolls and cliques for far too long.

It is not a good idea having distinctions between "trusting" and "empowering" users. Empower? There will never be full consensus on which members should be appointed with empowerment attached to them and what would they do with power? It would only empower their cliques whilst alienating others.

Several members have bloated egos and are as duplicitous and untrustworthy as they come, but by virtue of being part of a clique (and by subliminally encouraging others to do their trolling and attacking) they could be candidates. I would be unable to vouch for such an outcome and I am sure others will feel the same way and express it if a candidate list was ever drawn up.

In such a scenario the cliques would obviously put forward their candidates and support them with all their keyboard typing power.

Because while some fight each other and may have both good intentions (yes, I know that in this context this statement can explode), some real trolls simply get stronger. I won't tell names since I don't have solid proof, so it's just a hunch.

Yes, agreed. Many times hunches turn out to be correct though 

Maybe a new topic in Meta is needed to get ideas how to use better the current trust system. One idea that came into my mind was to select carefully a very short list of users we want to "empower". Or maybe it should be as wide as possible?!

Opening a topic in Meta would be a good idea in order for members to put forward ideas and have healthy debate as to how to confront it and fix it in such a manner that it is not open to abuse any longer.

[dkbit98]

Maybe, in a BOFH moment, theymos will reform DT1 by handpicking you back

Whatever, there is also a nice little blacklisting option, so I could let wannabes, power trippers and witch hunters pretend they are more important in their own mind.
I am 100% sure what members will never erase their trust list

But without offering a better system, what do you expect theymos to do?

I am not expecting any theymos magic tricks and perfectly working system, that's for sure.
People already made suggestions like I said before, some of them are good for reducing number of DT members, and I am sure you are well aware about them.

[JollyGood]

I don’t think it’s so broken..
Things are sorting themselves out as intended are they not?

Eventually yes but you did delete your own trust list around a year ago (I think you said) and during that time the system is still open to abuse and manipulation. Nothing has changed for the positive.

It’s just mediocre because that’s how democracy with mediocre inputs work.. You get mediocre outputs..
It’s not exactly a group of highly intelligent philosophers of a similar doctrine..

You are right, there are no highly intelligent philosophers here in the forum but some highly cunning individuals with ulterior motives are here. Mediocre is the key word here. Most of the agenda based inputs are culpable for the general low quality outputs visible in the forum today.

Democracy also slow and has a lot of debate before any decision is made and stuck with.. Not very efficient..

All from such varied cultures/beliefs from strict Islamic societies to atheist anarchists and communists what have you..
Diversity!

Yes the member base in the forum with all the local language boards (even with own problems) is something to marvel at and the small economies each has generated (from trading and/or avatar and signature campaigns) is at least a success story in itself.

Almost a miracle anything gets done at all and it’s not all out war..

This is true  

[stompix]

It's worse than that: if the people who use the Trust system correctly drop out, that leaves the ones who shouldn't be on DT1.

It will be pretty interesting, can't wait to see a 100+ score on accounts like game-protect or bitcoinsv, or Loycevelenzuela or whatever their names were. So, should we turn back to a previous more, how was that, ..centralized trust system? 

[LoyceV]

So, should we turn back to a previous more, how was that, ..centralized trust system? 

You can already get a preview: wipe your Trust list, remove DefaultTrust, and add only theymos. You'll have theymos on Depth 0, theymos' Trust inclusions on Depth 1, and their Trust inclusions on Depth 2. Considering theymos barely changed his Trust list in the past years, you can expect walk down memory lane

[yahoo62278]

I did the same a week ago.  

yahoo62278

2022-05-25

I cannot but note that yahoo62278 showed himself in the best possible way in various areas where our common interests could intersect. I can't help but mention his independent mindset (even when it comes to forum dramas), which I think subtly highlights his lifestyle. Without a doubt, this is one of the few people for whom I am ready to vouch.

Now I attach even more importance to this feedback.

I seen that when I was checking bpip and you dropped off my list.

Yahoo, your word is much more powerful than a single DT1 position..

Agreed

It's worse than that: if the people who use the Trust system correctly drop out, that leaves the ones who shouldn't be on DT1.

Which brings up another point. If users shouldn't be on DT1 then why the hell are they even eligible? Kinda makes no sense.

But I didn't understand, could any of the people who participated here clarify a bit more, since drama was talked about: as an example, do you consider JollyGood to be the problem on DT1 or Royse777? Because one is tagging the other for scamming, and the other is accusing the first of abusing the trust system. So you can't say both, because Royse777 is either a scammer or he isn't. You can't just say "well, let's stay neutral and forget about it, nothing to see here".

I just have the feeling though that the few voices left talking against and tagging scammers are about to get booted out from DT1.

Jollygood and Royse have drama between them, they are not letting it spew out amongst the rest of the community as far as it leading to more silly tags. Having an opinion shouldn't keep you from DT. That's why I think when someone makes a new account to voice an opinion it needs to be ignored. Not because their opinion may be right or wrong, but more because they shouldn't hide. If I wanna call someone a bitch I will. No reason for me to hide, I want a person to know what I think about them.

DT was not supposed to be a power seeking position and considering it as your own property. Unfortunately some power seeking users are using it as a tool for them to silent others. They are using the loophole of the voting system. Even a post against their argument will earn you a tilde.

Some users post an opinion and are unwilling to compromise or see anyone else's point of view. They are right and you cannot change their minds. I think those types( hell I may be that way at times but eventually i calm down and come to my senses lol) need to take a day and think before they react or post on a topic. Posting with a hothead is just gonna cause more drama and maybe tags that are inappropriate. Usually the community steps up and tells someone when they're being dumb and people come to their senses, but like I said above noone should get tagged for their opinion even if it might be a bad opinion.

you know that this will not change your status much, you will still be in the DT selection because, it sounds a bit strange, but others decide about it.

I don't think his motive was necessarily to get himself removed from DT but to protest against the system itself, which is a mockery of what it used to be prior to this rotating lunacy.  That was a bad idea IMO, and honestly after reading this thread I'm thinking about doing exactly what Yahoo62278 did.  I think the DT system sucks, and I already know whose feedback I trust (and if I'm not sure, I can always click on a member's trust profile) so I don't need to have a custom trust list or any list for that matter.

Props to you, Yahoo62278, for leading the revolution.

WHO CARES !!!!!!

Who the fuck are you?

Just as eddie13 said, your word is more powerful than DT. I would like to think he was referring to every user, not just myself.

Trust list (default lists/etc) have been played around with too much.

People are trying to manipulate DT to gain reputation on this forum and eventually someone gonna do a huge scam because of it. A user can easily manipulate the system and gain IMO false reputation in the community just by hanging out in the collectibles section. Bid on some auctions, buy some shit, sell some shit, and boom gain positive ratings and likely inclusions. All that and never making a post outside of collectibles. Hence why we need 2 systems. A user hanging out buying and selling likely doesn't participate in the rest of the forum and shouldn't be in a position to make decisions about other users. They should be labeled an honest and trustworthy trader, not a community rep.

I decided to take a bit of advice and clear my trust list. dkbit98 made a suggestion and while I do not think it would force theymos to do anything, I do think DT isn't really a prestigious position to hold any longer. Also a bit tired of the drama and manipulation that is seen by users when it comes to DT. I may change my mind later but for now my trust list is empty. My distrust list still exists for now.

I am thinking of doing the same thing, but I would like if other members could do the same if they think DT system is currently broken.
EDIT: done, I cleaned my trust list also, and I will consider making new one after (possible) DT theymos reform.

Welcome to the light!!!

[dkbit98]

People are trying to manipulate DT to gain reputation on this forum and eventually someone gonna do a huge scam because of it.

Or someone is going to start abusing other members, make threats and blackmail other people... oh wait... that is already happening now, and most people are not paying attention at all

Welcome to the light!!!

May the force be with you.
So does that mean that LoyceV is now on the dark side?  

[marcotheminer]

WHO CARES !!!!!!

Perhaps you can elaborate. I'll add a view: we're having too much belief in/counting too much on a forum trust system (a.k.a. users' reputations). Especially now that I've noticed more "I trust them, they trust me", "I trust them, they bust scams", <all childish back-and-forth's via the system>, and various other feedbacks. Trust list (default lists/etc) have been played around with too much.

[mindrust]

Trust system is only relevant because of the sig camps anyway. People are obsessed with the red trust ratings they may receive because when they do, the managers won't include them in their campaigns.

It has been the thing for years.

Almost any sig camps #1 rule:

"No red tags allowed"

Some managers manually check the red rating and decide themselves if it is a bullshit rating or not mostly that's not the case. Gaming the system isn't really hard neither. When a person acquires a good position in the system, he will have the power to decide who is going to join the nude parties and who is going to touch himself at night.

Wtf am I talking about?

[The Sceptical Chymist]

After looking at how several cliques and trolls manipulate the system to suit their own agenda

<snip>
I propose these cliques and trolls are  BitcoinGirl.Club, NeuroticFish, tranthidung, LoyceV, Poker Player, dragonvslinux, DireWolfM14, dkbit98, The Pharmacist.

I hope I'm not included in JollyGood's list of cliques and trolls, serving my own agenda by manipulating the system.  For one thing, I don't have an agenda with respect to my trust list other than to do what I think is best for the forum.  I've communicated with JollyGood since I excluded him, and if I recall correctly I explained to him why I did it and that there were no hard feelings, just that I thought there were too many questionable feedbacks he'd left for others. 

And I certainly don't think I'm a troll, and hopefully JollyGood doesn't see me that way.  I haven't done any trolling lately, and if I had a list of targets of trolling he wouldn't be on it.

There have always been groups of members who tend to see things (like JollyGood's feedback-giving accuracy) the same way and are pretty vocal about it.  It was that way when Lauda and Vod were active, but it's not like there's any behind-the-scenes collusion AFAIK.  I'm definitely not included if there is.

[DireWolfM14]

After looking at how several cliques and trolls manipulate the system to suit their own agenda

<snip>
I propose these cliques and trolls are  BitcoinGirl.Club, NeuroticFish, tranthidung, LoyceV, Poker Player, dragonvslinux, DireWolfM14, dkbit98, The Pharmacist.

I hope I'm not included in JollyGood's list of cliques and trolls, serving my own agenda by manipulating the system.  For one thing, I don't have an agenda with respect to my trust list other than to do what I think is best for the forum.  I've communicated with JollyGood since I excluded him, and if I recall correctly I explained to him why I did it and that there were no hard feelings, just that I thought there were too many questionable feedbacks he'd left for others.  

And I certainly don't think I'm a troll, and hopefully JollyGood doesn't see me that way.  I haven't done any trolling lately, and if I had a list of targets of trolling he wouldn't be on it.

There have always been groups of members who tend to see things (like JollyGood's feedback-giving accuracy) the same way and are pretty vocal about it.  It was that way when Lauda and Vod were active, but it's not like there's any behind-the-scenes collusion AFAIK.  I'm definitely not included if there is.

I think you're missing BitcoinGirl.Club's point;  I interpret her post as speculation that JollyGood would accuse those listed as a clique, or trolls.  I don't think anyone has accused JollyGood (or you, for that matter) of trolling.

And, as for the communication about your trust exclusion; of course JollyGood is going to respond to you.  You're one of the older established members, a merit source, and a fixture in DT.  He knows, like any power hungry politician, he needs the help of the powerful to gain more power.  Anyone else who's critical of him gets ignored.  Like me, I'm a nobody so he thinks that maybe just maybe if he ignores my criticism of his trust abuses (like he's done for the last year) that I'll just go away.

I'm not going away.  JollyGood shouldn't take it personally, I would criticize any one who abuses the trust system regardless of who they are.  

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I think you're missing BitcoinGirl.Club's point;  I interpret her post as speculation that JollyGood would accuse those listed as a clique, or trolls.  I don't think anyone has accused JollyGood (or you, for that matter) of trolling.

You could be right about that, and it might just be a language misunderstanding (on my part), but BitcoinGirl.Club did lump me in with the rest of what I thought they were saying was the group JollyGood considered trolls and/or abusers of the DT system.  Regardless, that's not something that'll eat away at my soul or cause me to lose a minute of sleep.  Spine of steel, don't you know.

You compared JollyGood to a status-seeking politician, which I found interesting, as I'd never considered he came across that way.  I figured he might be trying to gain a reputation by tagging a bunch of members who may or may not be involved with shady stuff, but I've never observed him to curry favor with anyone.  Even after our communication, he continued to do the same old stuff that led me to remove him from my trust list, so it isn't as if he listened to whatever I wrote (which I don't remember and haven't checked to see if I still have our PMs).

I'm still pondering whether I should follow Yahoo62278 and clear my list.  It's not a small decision to make IMO.