Honest Coin Initiative -- fighting the shitcoin insurgency

[Snail2]

We need "new" at the moment because ASICs are taking over the mining of scrypt coins.  There's only a few options currently available for GPU miners, and those options are pretty fucking terrible.  There's plenty of technical changes to be done still, but it's all pointless if it comes with a massive premine.  I have a big enough set of rigs that I don't give a shit about getting premine -- just having a decent coin to mine is reward enough for me. 

PPC, IXC and a couple of other old SHA coins are doing well however they are all ASIC mined. If we accept your logic all of these coins should be dead by now. As markm used to say (scrypt) ASICs can provide a solid and reliable network for many alts. So I'm not sure if we are really desperately need any new wundercoin. But I'm more of a(n amateur) trader than a miner.

[Spoetnik]

what you say goes with out saying with me..

i have brain stormed a lot of ideas off and on for ages and coding is work and may be hard but you need a good idea
and being a coder helps for that.. i often end up thinking of ways code wise to tackle the usual issues as i lay down to sleep at night lol
such as fighting asics AND cpu miner botnets. I had an idea last night where i thought what if we dumped hashing for POW and setup code
to validate if a user is sharing files via torrent client merged with a wallet ? or have them separate or even an edonkey mod ?
i have made one about 10 years back that was pretty popular around the world and it was a leecher mod. My P2P program i made and posted online,
had a config option to swap between credit systems (first of it's kind) and what i did was reversed the credit system in eMule so it works in reverse. (my mod did more too)
that is a random example of crazy ideas lol
I'm not that great of a coder but i am good enough that i can envision how code would work and that can fuel ideas.. so i have a good idea what is possible or is hard etc.
edit:
In other words my idea was this.. The more a guy runs a torrent client and uploads data the more coins he will generate over time or something like that hahaha
I like that concept because it dumps wasting electricity and it supports file sharing (piracy) and is doing something vs nothing like 98% of all other coins.
AND may be possible to work out so it's asic and bot net resistant, a big time must have !

alternatives to POW hashing is interesting.. when ADT went POS only with no mining that was interesting, no idea what happened in time though.

all it takes is one good idea !

so saying nothing can be done etc is bs i think.

and yeah i could pull a DarkCoin out of my ass in my sleep with both hands tied behind my back but what in gods name is the bloody point in taking an existing coin like Quark
and adding a couple stupid things to it to say it's different.. not by much and not in way that matters. i have thought of mining it to see what its like lately but
i don't see that coin as anything revolutionary in the slightest.. just a coin by a guy who wanted to make a coin but knew he had to change it enough to get it accepted lol

[spiffcow]

Finally! something constructive. Couple of questions though.

- no scrypt coins

From purely technical view, what are the grounds to discriminate against this specific algorithm?

each coin must do *something* new and interesting

I think this needs some elaboration. Would a novel approach to distributing the coins qualify as interesting, or does the interestingness have to always reside at the level of the code? Can innovation be social (what will be done with the coins) or is innovation perceived solely as technical (how to coin has been done)?

Generally speaking I don't see a good reason to use scrypt, mainly because it only benefits ASIC miners (who, in turn, only benefit ASIC manufacturers).  It would be less of an issue for a pure POS coin, but I still see no reason to do it.

As for innovation..  I have no problem with a social innovation, but I think any social innovation needs to meet a high degree of scrutiny.  For instance, a charity coin would need an endorsement from the tax-registered charity they plan to endorse, with information about the coin available directly from the charity itself to prove that both the coin dev and the charity are working in collaboration.

Ultimately the list of qualities I wrote are just a draft proposal, and as with all aspects of this initiative, the mission statement is subject to community review.

[spiffcow]

what you say goes with out saying with me..

i have brain stormed a lot of ideas off and on for ages and coding is work and may be hard but you need a good idea
and being a coder helps for that.. i often end up thinking of ways code wise to tackle the usual issues as i lay down to sleep at night lol
such as fighting asics AND cpu miner botnets. I had an idea last night where i thought what if we dumped hashing for POW and setup code
to validate if a user is sharing files via torrent client merged with a wallet ? or have them separate or even an edonkey mod ?
i have made one about 10 years back that was pretty popular around the world and it was a leecher mod. My P2P program i made and posted online,
had a config option to swap between credit systems (first of it's kind) and what i did was reversed the credit system in eMule so it works in reverse. (my mod did more too)
that is a random example of crazy ideas lol
I'm not that great of a coder but i am good enough that i can envision how code would work and that can fuel ideas.. so i have a good idea what is possible or is hard etc.
edit:
In other words my idea was this.. The more a guy runs a torrent client and uploads data the more coins he will generate over time or something like that hahaha
I like that concept because it dumps wasting electricity and it supports file sharing (piracy) and is doing something vs nothing like 98% of all other coins.
AND may be possible to work out so it's asic and bot net resistant, a big time must have !

alternatives to POW hashing is interesting.. when ADT went POS only with no mining that was interesting, no idea what happened in time though.

all it takes is one good idea !

so saying nothing can be done etc is bs i think.

and yeah i could pull a DarkCoin out of my ass in my sleep with both hands tied behind my back but what in gods name is the bloody point in taking an existing coin like Quark
and adding a couple stupid things to it to say it's different.. not by much and not in way that matters. i have thought of mining it to see what its like lately but
i don't see that coin as anything revolutionary in the slightest.. just a coin by a guy who wanted to make a coin but knew he had to change it enough to get it accepted lol

Proof of bandwidth is certainly an interesting idea..  Not sure I want to bring the ire of the FBI and RIAA by tying it to file sharing, but maybe provide it for operating tor servers?  The problem there is how to do it in such a way that it protects the tor op's identity... 

[YarkoL]

Generally speaking I don't see a good reason to use scrypt, mainly because it only benefits ASIC miners (who, in turn, only benefit ASIC manufacturers).  It would be less of an issue for a pure POS coin, but I still see no reason to do it.

Well, if the coin is based on Scrypt or SHA-256 and implements merge mining, I don't see a problem. As markm has been tirelessly pointing out, large hashing power gives the maximal security for a coin. Of course that coin would then have to be very innovative to not get ignored (or even attacked) by pools.

If I read you correctly, you have in mind a coin that can be mined by everybody. I like those coins too, but IMO the concept of "honest coin" need not exclude mining with ASICs.

As for innovation..  I have no problem with a social innovation, but I think any social innovation needs to meet a high degree of scrutiny.  For instance, a charity coin would need an endorsement from the tax-registered charity they plan to endorse, with information about the coin available directly from the charity itself to prove that both the coin dev and the charity are working in collaboration.

Good point. If the coin presents itself allied to some organization, without an official endorsement it would be rather absurd situation.  However, with the recent "nation coins" the situation is little more complex. There is always a chance that the coin will catch on with some portion of populace without appeal to authority. Still, it would have been better if Auroracoin for example had asked and gained support of some citizen's organization before the launch.

Ultimately the list of qualities I wrote are just a draft proposal, and as with all aspects of this initiative, the mission statement is subject to community review.

Let's keep the discussion going on.. It might be a good idea to start similar thread at cryptocointalk.com.

[spiffcow]

So I think the right way to do this is to create a coin proposal and let the community scrutinize it.  When it appears satisfactory, I'll code it up and release it.  For the first coin I'm not going to try to do anything too revolutionary, but I'm thinking a modified NFactor schedule scrypt-jane PoW and a smooth release should at least be enough to get the name out and maybe get others involved.  I know coins should be more revolutionary than this but we'll need to build up a reputation for being honest, and a couple good clean coin launches will do that.

[usahero]

As markm has been tirelessly pointing out, large hashing power gives the maximal security for a coin

Which isn't actually true so his point is irellevant.

[YarkoL]

As markm has been tirelessly pointing out, large hashing power gives the maximal security for a coin

Which isn't actually true so his point is irellevant.

For a scrypt or any POW coin, I think the above holds true.

[spiffcow]

As markm has been tirelessly pointing out, large hashing power gives the maximal security for a coin

Which isn't actually true so his point is irellevant.

For a scrypt or any POW coin, I think the above holds true.

That's largely true, but may not be the case forever.  The important thing is to have wide distribution of hashing power, so that no entity can feasibly obtain 51% of the network.  With Bitcoin the issue is that, even though there is a large amount of hashing power on the network, most of it is concentrated in the hands of a small few.  DOGE is, in many ways, more secure than Bitcoin because no entity has even 1% of the total network hashrate. 

New coins are very vulnerable.  There's no getting around it.  But ensuring a more widely distributed hashrate is just as important, if not moreso, than simply adding more hashing power.

[YarkoL]

New coins are very vulnerable.  There's no getting around it.  But ensuring a more widely distributed hashrate is just as important, if not moreso, than simply adding more hashing power.

Yes, the scenario was that of a new coin gaining security by merged mining with an established coin. Although this has the unpleasant consequence of being quite dependent of the parent network..

To me it looks like -  I'm still new and learning - that the drive towards centralization is almost like it's inbuilt into PoW cryptocurrency.  Still I wonder if a coin could be designed to somehow incentivize solo mining?

[markm]

Block eruptors are dirt cheap, heck I would not be surprised if some folk are giving them away, yet they can still merged mine both CoiLedCoin and GeistGeld quite effectively so long as the short-sighted pools continue to fail to include those coins in their merge.

Little USB plug in miners in general are probably much more affordable for normal folk than GPUs are.

The problem though with distributing mining power to normal folk is that botnets are based on normal folk's computers, so whatever normal folk have on hand botnets have vast amounts of.

-MarkM-

[beetterer1]

Your idea is very good, I agree with the idea, a coin has affected the market price, go down for a long time that we can't accept, will destroy this market.

[markm]

Remember that mining should not be profitable for most businesses/people.

It is intended to tend toward no profit. Even toward lower and lower wages for the labourers employed to install and maintain the machines, lower and lower prices for the machines themselves and so on.

It needs to be distributed, yes. That means ideally we should try to ensure every nation has some form of cheap electricity so that mining can feasibly include that nation in its distributedness. Maybe that will even lead to better ways of generating electricity cheaply. Some geographical areas though just might not have practical ways of generating electricity cheaply, so might have to resort to renting or buying space or land elsewhere to conduct mining operations.

-MarkM-

[cinnamon_carter]

good luck , you are going to need it, 

you speak of too many coins and want to launch an entire line of them ........

oh my

[berone]

i agree. i'm looking forward to the coin
good luck

[YarkoL]

Remember that mining should not be profitable for most businesses/people.

It is intended to tend toward no profit.

This, then provides the drive towards centralized mining with specialized hardware.

However it is a law of nature, that if there is profit to be made with older hardware (like GPUs), then there will be people profiting from it.
People like memes, they like forming communities, they like to feel like "early adopter"... hence there will be market for altcoins, whether we like it or not.

If it became more expedient to build altcoins on top of Bitcoin chain as "smart contracts" without problems then that might put shitcoin wars to end...

[spiffcow]

I have posted the first Honest Coin Initiative proposal: ReactiveCoin.  Please read and let me know what you think:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557428.new#new

[thresher]

New honest coin:
1. Has to have a legitimate exchange/bank where coins can be purchased with fiat and held safely. The exchange/bank has posted some sort of bond or something so everyone doesn't get fucked.  This exchange should be run by the coin creators. (Maybe later on the bank buys property or something with coins to replace the original bond)
2a. Is premined to whatever extent would make this possible  
        - premined coins are in a fund, coins are locked in fund that is controlled by designer/s, maybe shareholders, voted in trusted forum members, someone..
        - these coins are used as compensation for the (we will call them owners) owners to pay themselves or others to get vendors to accept the coin (get a vendor to accept, you get a commission off how many coins the vendor gets in the first year, give the person a set number of coins based on vendor size, something)  This can be done through the 9 millions forms of advertising, seminars, connections, physically going to vendors to promote the coin, etc.  
2b. A percentage of all coins mined goes into a fund, controlled by someone in 2a, for the purposes of 2a. (alternative method or maybe combine the two)
3a. Uses some new algorithm that is already maxed out to its full potential?  I'm not a programmer so I don't really grasp the fundamentals behind the asics evolution process, but this way there will never be miners that much better than the original one.  There is no need to give all the coins to the bitcoin farms
3b. Use a new algorithm that is asic resistant (alternative to a), preferably target a specific card, cpu, whatever so we can all buy stock in that company , or do the opposite and target something that is broad enough to prevent price gouging
4. The coin has to have that sort of untraceable quality.  People may say taxation is better, but at the end of the day there is not a business out there that doesn't cook their books.  It is just reality.  I'm not saying the owners won't report income tax, i'm saying they don't want to get audited to the last penny.
5. Lobbyist, lawyers, tax specialist, already in place to defend the coin and what not.  (while that contradicts 4, there is always a grey area where a coin can fit in, as crypto currency is grey to begin with)
6. Must get amazon, we know overtsock will go since they are awesome.  
7. Must create an ebay site, so noone is subject to the bullshit paypal nonsense.
8. Must create an online liquor store or get a bar in my area to accept the coin.    

Obviously this cost a lot of money, so I don't see it happening until someone realizes that they could make absurd amounts of money, actually do what bitcoin promised us, and they will go down in history to top it off.

Frankly, I still don't understand why people with thousands of btc aren't out doing some of these things.  I'd be promoting bitcoin like crazy and increasing the usefulness and the value of my holdings if I had a lot.
Instead they'd rather manipulate the market...  

And actually I created another address for this, gonna send some funds in it and look it 5 years later: 1Ca2WtnevxutAecW2chgvo7V8krnTtqScR

[envy2010]

DOGE is, in many ways, more secure than Bitcoin because no entity has even 1% of the total network hashrate.

What? There are several scrypt multipools over 30GH. Clevermining has 39GHs right now, and is big enough to 51% DOGE by itself.

[spiffcow]

DOGE is, in many ways, more secure than Bitcoin because no entity has even 1% of the total network hashrate.

What? There are several scrypt multipools over 30GH. Clevermining has 39GHs right now, and is big enough to 51% DOGE by itself.

Hm..  I stand corrected.  Frankly I'm amazed any one pool is that big. 

Just out of curiosity, what's the biggest BTC pool?