BITCOIN IS NOT A STORE OF VALUE

[NeuroticFish]

I've seen yesterday a nice tweet, although old.

Bitcoin's primary function is not "store of value" - that's a result of its primary function.
Bitcoin is "fuck you money."

For example:
You want to seize my accounts? Fuck you.
You don't want me to buy ______? Fuck you.
You want to steal my wealth via inflation? Fuck you.

I will add that, as Jameson Lopp also wrote, the store of value part comes from the primary functionality.
And while the so much claimed gold and such are not as rare as some choose to believe, Bitcoin scarcity is programmed and 100% clear.

I will also add something directly to OP, more specifically to this:

Keeping in mind the most important factor, without gold and silver, all electronic equipment wouldn't exist = bitcoin would not exist. Computers, phones, tv's, etc ALL require silver and gold to be manufactured.

Based on your logic, copper, quartz/sand (SiO2) and plastic are also a store of value. Be my guest in storing your funds in that.

[franky1]

Pay attention:
The time of abundance is over, this means less energy , less finance, less food, and a lot less people.
Proof of Waste can't survive except in a time of abundance.

oh.. i see your one of them conspiracy guys that have watched 20 "eugenics" "new world order" videos.. which have spread virally through media..

i actually am a realist. i knew as far back as the 1980's that oil/coal was running out.

but lets point you in the right direction of history and future that may actually tickle your anti-gov anti corp feelings. but using actual common sense, logic, physics, economics and math


the gulf wars and such were not due to humanitarian efforts, they were due to trying to steal oil/gas because america/europe was running out domestically in the 80's so needed to grab some from elsewhere

the whole "carbon crisis" is more of a business deal to get public funding to pay for private business to transition over to renewables because.. no surprise coal/oil/gas reserves would run out by 2030-2050 the same guestimate date era that is called out as the carbon(climate crisis) point of no return

yes carbon is a lung health risk. but a 0.x% to 0.xy% is not a big enough change to 'kill everyone' (like you think)
the atmosphere alarm about warming/cooling. is more about water. not carbon
yep less water in the air means less rain = less cooling.
all them dams and reservoirs, water pipes, sewers over the last century have caused more impact on temperature.. those human constructed things prevent free water flow to wet the land, thus cant cool the land as much

which means less water to evaporate to then cause more rain. which means less coolling
its called the water cycle (elementary school stuff)
messing with the water cycle(yes its human caused climate crises, but its water not coal thats to blame most)

try it.. get 2 glasses of water. walk into your yard where the sun beams down onto your pavement/drive/patio.. put 1 glass as-is on the ground. and pour the other across the ground as a puddle.. you will see that the free flowing water across land evaporates. where as the one in the dammed reservoir does not evaporate as much)
(yes thats the downside of hydro power plants. the need of dams have dried the land and messed with the water cycle)

next get 2 glasses with lids. half fill both glasses. put the lids on but in one glass blow just 0.x% of smoke vs the air % of the half glass of air

wait and then check the temperature difference later on.. the change is not noticable.

you then learn when the day rains.. the temperature drops more then the carbon(smoke) difference.

yep all these "try its" are things you can do, easily by yourself
(also look at the cries about the brazilian "RAIN"forest. and not a mention of a "carbon"forest. and realise what is being impacted by deforestation
....
anyways back to the power consumption and utility which you think will ban things..

 power companies dont have or dont want to pay out of their own pocket to transition to renewables, as its not cheap. they know they have to do it by 2030-2050 as they will have no resource to produce energy via fossil fuel by then.
yep all oil and coal would run out, so the climate crises message about fossil fuel would self fulfil/solve itself by being 0% fossil energy production by then anyway
yep with fossil fuel running out by 2050. there would be 0% fossil fuel production by 2050 by doing absolutely nothing different.

. so they are trying to get the public to fund their evolution by finding some humanitarian reason to get the public to fund their activities
again like getting the public to fund the gulf wars to grab oil from other countries by calling it a humanitarian crises.
..
so if you want to follow some agenda capitalism has against individuals. atleast do some research and not quote the stories of media.


here is the thing. when they make new power plants based on renewable.. the build costs are not based on supplying current demands. the cost is based on demands of 20-50 years.. meaning the cost is 3-5x higher than current demand, because the demand now is not sufficient to pay the cost over all. which delays making such power plants now

think about it if they have a region of 1m houses, but build  a power plant to support the future 3mill houses. they are only now going to get 33% potential income because there is only 1m houses paying bills, not 3m

so they want business. they want users of electric to consume that 2m houses excess NOW. so they can cover their costs now and expand sooner

..
this is why energy prices are higher. because instead of using old cheap energy production, regions are having to use higher rate renewable energy that costs more.

those with the less accessible old energy production get to raise their prises because of competition. allowing them to raise their prices. where they profit and the hope was that profit would be used to transition to renewable
..
summary
power plants transitioning to renewables want new business of high electric demand to move into their region so they can get 100% potential income instead of the slow 30% income in first few years of demand.

..
the banning of mining. is not about not wanting it..
its about banning it so that they can then control the licence/permits of where they will then allow it.
yep they want to be able to make licences/permits that allow asic farms to set up. but they first need to be able to control it. which first requires banning it.

[franky1]

now that previous post has corrected his conspiracy theory and put him on a different path that has atleast some logic/reason/math. physics economic and ecologic explanation..

beck to the topic in question

bitcoin has got a store of value.. but this VALUE is not the price

the best way to think about it is the economic window of the cheapest price anyone on planet can get bitcoin for. as the line, the bottomline of price potential.

EG
   |  SOV  ||      speculative variable (price)          |
   ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
   0        15        30        45        60        75        90

no one can or does buy bitcoin for less than $15k right now. so that is a kind of 'locked in value'
anything above the value line. is then speculative premium

the store of value is currently $15k ish

stop thinking the PRICE is the store of value amount
the PRICE is store of value+speculative premium

if you can buy bitcoin at good value(cheap close to bottom) great you are doing a good thing.
you are maximising your potential and reducing the risk.
where your wealth is of good value and more of your wealth is locked in/secure

[Rizzrack]

bitcoin has got a store of value.. but this VALUE is not the price

Pretty fair points !

And regarding gold... there's more where that came from  !



Yes, it is 12 times further than Mars (~630,000,000 km) but hey... baby steps 

[franky1]

golds store of value is not the current price of $1700

golds SOV is about $900
the excess $800 is the premium, speculative area of where the gold price can go up and down. depending on many variables of regional sentiment, personal choice and market desires of the many users fighting for gold on the market

..
as for space mining gold. yes "supply" is then sentimentally broken. but that sentiment is the desire, sentiment, emotional decision of how much someone is willing to pay for it above the SOV line.

however if they can space mine gold for less than $900 an ounce.. then and only then does it touch/change the SOV amount bottomline

EG
if you can mine gold for $900.. because your in a great cheap gold mining area. you may still not want to mine it for many reasons you think of and just want to easily buy it.
then its speculatively premium for you to just buy it for a little more because the effort and multiple reasons are worth buying it for more than $900
or
EG if you live in an area with high labour, high diesel cost and low gold per acre land. where the costs are more then $900 mining cost for you personally again then you are in the speculative zone

but because no one can mine/acquire, anywhere on the planet fot under $900. then that $900 is the current locked in value. where no one is selling for less. thus is the bottom

[Rizzrack]

as for space mining gold. yes "supply" is then sentimentally broken. but that sentiment is the desire, sentiment, emotional decision of how much someone is willing to pay for it above the SOV line.

I wouldn't say it's about the cost of harvesting the asteroid (at least in this particular case) because it has a theoretical value 250,000 times more than the current world money supply, but it's more an issue about the current technological capacities we have. By the info I found the price would be hugely under any sort of SOV, 99,9999% under  

There is an ongoing mission to fetch that big rock: https://psyche.asu.edu/mission/ . Hope never dies, I guess...

Regarding the BTC $15k ish SOV I find it a pretty accurate extrapolation.

Considering you have a BITMAIN AntMiner S19 Pro+ Hyd (198Th), most powerful BTC miner so far, it would take you ~37 months to mine 1 BTC.
$8k for the miner, $8k the electric bill ... so yeah, 15-16k sounds about right

[franky1]

regarding space mining
the whole colonise moon/mars.. is not about some leisure destination or just colonise for the sake of colonise.. where the residents just twiddle their thumbs looking out of thick glass windows wondering what to do all day.. . its actually to set up refineries up there.

the cost of moving 100tonne to earth is high.
but to land on moon/mars is cheap. the fuel needed for landing/takeoff from moon/mars is far far far less than earth

the idea is not to bring a asteroid unrefined to earth where they then have to refine it where the yield of gold is sub1% of material.. it would be refined in space and when finally brought back to earth (to be sold) it would be 100tonne of 95%+ pure material to go straight to market

throwing that amount on the market. well that would send sentiments crazy, and also the cost of all of it is lower than you think

elons "boring" company is not making tunnels on earth just for cars on earth to have special roads underground. its R&D for ripping through rock.
they dont want to just carry a large rock in one lump. they want to have the tech to mine /break it up and refine it up there.
..
separate subject
ethereum has a SOV which will change dramatically once it goes full PoS as the cost of production will drop dramatically
"saving 99.95% energy" is the subtle hint

the ratio of SOV:speculation will change  from $1.2k price=
SOV high:speculation low
if eth tries to still trade above $1k after PoS merge
SOV Low: speculation:high

[LegendaryK]

we are going to a future where everybody in the world has access to electricity and the internet (Bitcoin cannot be censored).
So Bitcoin was literally created for the future.

This is where you have utterly parted with reality.

If you bothered to actually read the current news,
you would see the world is on the brink of collapse
in the following sectors Demographics / Finance / Energy / Food.

FYI:   This is the world you live in.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/24/macron-warns-of-end-of-abundance-as-france-faces-difficult-winter
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-26/here-s-what-europe-is-doing-to-reduce-energy-consumption-for-winter#xj4y7vzkg
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/egypts-cabinet-approves-plan-ration-electricity-save-gas-export-2022-08-11/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/15/kosovo-stops-import-of-electricity-and-begins-energy-rationing
https://time.com/6209272/europes-energy-crisis-getting-worse/
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20220829-french-pm-says-companies-may-face-energy-rationing-this-winter
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/23/china-is-facing-another-power-crunch-but-this-time-its-likely-to-be-different.html
https://slate.com/technology/2022/07/texas-power-grid-electricity-ercot-abbott-heat.html

All one has to do , to censor bitcoin is a phone call.
Governments official call operator of mining pool, you are breaking AML/KYC laws the following transactions will be censored or you will be imprisioned.
Government office call ASIC mining warehouses, you include any transactions to blacklisted addressed and we will cut the power to your warehouse.
* Bitcoin is so weak , it is absolutely pathetic. *

Pay attention:
The time of abundance is over, this means less energy , less finance, less food, and a lot less people.
Proof of Waste can't survive except in a time of abundance.

i actually am a realist.
 

How can you claim to be a realist, when you ignore all news about the coming energy shortages and price hikes
I guess we should tell the pub owner that energy bill just when from $12K per year to $64K per year, that it is all in her imagination.
Or the people in Paris , that get mugged at night because the lights are off due to rationing
Or the people of Spain , that are being asked to  basically not use their ACs
Or the people in California , that were asked not to charge their electric cars, because the grid can't handle it.

Wake Up Dorthy, you ain't in Kansas anymore and the energy supply is limited, and getting worse daily not better.

As said earlier ,
No power, No Bitcoin.

Gold will survive any power outages.  

Store of Values, don't disappear when the power goes off.

 

[PSCQQSCQQP]

NotATether: Most governments are dinosaurs when it comes to technology, the US government is no exception.

So based on your think tank analysis of "most governments", they don't understand bitcoin?
Maybe they don't understand it the way that I do, but they are intelligent enough to stop any potential threats to their current financial system when it pertains to online digital dollars. The internet relies on ISP's, who are regulated by government oversight - if the government wants to strangle the life out of bitcoin, that's within their realm of power - as amply shown with current AML/KYC laws. Internet service providers are more than happy to comply since they work together. Indisputable facts.

NotATether: Governments do not know the economics about cryptos and the only knowledge pertaining to them that they have is from their crypto specialists, who are more knowledgeable about how to trace crypto owners than how it actually works:

Again, underestimating and attempting to undermine the people in charge of the current system just demonstrates your lack of understanding and ignorance of the people in charge. They are alot more dangerous and in control than you realize. You are making snap judgements based on what exactly? One thing I learned is to never underestimate anyone, ever. Especially governments. You are basically telling me and the world by posting here that "most governments" don't understand economics? Sure they do, they created this flawed system we use today (by design i might add), that you still continue to be a part of and utilize.

Governments collectively might not understand the code, or how each block is determined, but they understand very well that without power or internet that bitcoin = nothing. Seriously, you are making me feel like I'm teaching astrophysics to a penguin. First let's cover some baby steps, I understand everyone learns at a different pace here so I'll go slow...

Who invented the internet, and for what primary use?
The internet indeed began as a typical government program. The ARPANET, designed to share mainframe computing power and to establish a secure military communications network. You honestly believe that they didn't understand or envision the potential when they created the backbone on which your cryptos operate and where we are having this argument right now? Let's not forget about the NSA, yeah your friends that spy on all your communications and log everything you do online... You going to tell me they don't understand bitcoin either, when in fact it was one of their own mathematicians (Glenn M. Lilly) that actually created it. - search patent 6829355. My honest opinion to you, and majority of others arguing opinions based outside of logic is that you might think about spending more time researching history and facts rather than news articles that perpetuate foolish beliefs.

NotATether: Same reason why Tesla dumped their cache - because they need hard cash for liquidity, nobody there will accept payment on Bitcoin.

- Flawed logic.

The government/federal reserve can print as much currency as they want... liquidity isn't an issue when you control the issuance of currency into the system. There is nothing to stop them from doing this at will.

NotATether: News media outlets writing about crypto are written usually by uneducated and uninformed people who have no knowledge of cryptocurrency economics.

This is one area where I agree with you to a point. They generally are not educated about crypto-currency, however their main role is to speak to the general public with a pre-determined script written by higher ups. They are just smart enough to do the paperwork, understanding something isn't their role when it comes to speaking, same way that presidents aren't hired to be brilliant. There is someone pulling the levers behind the curtains.

NotATether: Sure we do. Most of us own bitcoin because we believe in its economic principles. You can mock and ridicule us now, but you will be the one shaking your head when Bitcoin's price moons again and you missed out on it (for the $1 trillion market cap is the not the peak of its market adoption).

Except for the fact that I accurately predicated the exact price range and the exact time (exactly 3 days before in one instance, and then 7.5 months out from the date I uploaded it mooned, 2 x in a row with 100% success and accuracy), case and point:

https://youtu.be/eqZHzbP2Fe4

Make sure to check the date of upload, compared to the bitcoin price 7.5 months from that exact date... Tell me what I missed exactly. Explain please, teach the class here...

Still believe I don't understand bitcoin, and I don't know what I'm talking about? I was arrested by the government (a few 3 letter agencies) for my work with reverse engineering firmware and giving countless people (globally) free untraceable internet access... Also, I began mining bitcoin in 2008-2016 and am a Network Architect in distributed systems from 2001-current... What credentials do you have to be lecturing anyone about crypto's, let alone governments?

Me: Hard asset: Gold - 6000+ years and counting. Governments cannot stop it, so they hoard it instead.
Empty space: Bitcoin - 14 years with too many flaws to count. Governments can regulate it to death.

NotATether: Gold is most used by governments as collateral against loans to other governments. Because hey do not want to deal with Bitcoin's (current) volatility for loans, that is understandable.

No comment, not because I agree but because it's not worth my time to explain.

Me: Yeah, bitcoin is about to get it's baby teeth knocked out by reality.

- Power failure = no bitcoin.
- Power costs get too high to sustain infrastructure = no bitcoin.
- Internet outage = no bitcoin.
- No electronic device = no bitcoin.
- Miners don't accept transaction = no bitcoin.
- You lose your income to pay for electric, internet, phone service = no bitcoin.
- Government takes over any of these major things = no bitcoin.

NotATether: You conveniently ignore the fact that I have refuted your non-confiscation claim about Gold:

- Government sends a warrant against you = no gold, bitcoin, or any other asset.

Me: I hide my gold at an undisclosed location, or in my house... Please, tell me where it is... confiscate it and it's yours. bitcoin is on a PUBLIC LEDGER... How many people know I have gold if I walk into a coin shop or buy from an individual on the street, or sell to an individual on the street? NONE. How many people know when your bitcoin exchanges hands? EVERYONE - PUBLIC LEDGER! When someone purchases, or cashes out, AML/KYC laws are right there waiting... Gold doesn't suffer the burden of having 24/7 surveillance. I can buy it without giving my personal info, I can sell it just the same. Somewhere, at the very least beginning point cryptos have entrances and exits that have armed guards, metal detectors, 24/7 watch dogs... And you think Gold is somehow the same in that regard? LOL. You haven't refuted anything with logic or common sense. Power goes out or internet goes out, what do you honestly have? The simple unadulterated truth is, NOTHING, you have nothing! - FACT. Power goes out, internet goes out and I have gold... I have that barbarous relic that you undermined, meanwhile you have nothing to give, and nothing to take... Your store of value, then becomes a store of nothingness, you have nothing in your hands to hold on to.

That's not even touching on the subject of crypto-currencies already being reverse engineered (and in fact they ARE!), you think that hacks and exploits that you haven't heard about don't exist? I personally know they do because of my line of work I have seen first hand individuals and exchanges alike have their crypto wallets completely emptied! They now have NOTHING, and nobody to call to get it back!.. Still not grasping simple laymans term concepts here? You own NOTHING until it is in PHYSICAL FORM.

Take for example I have a girlfriend in real life, and you have a long distance girlfriend... We both claim we have a girlfriend and depending on how you look at it, that's true for both of us. Take into consideration I'm with my girlfriend everyday, and all you can do is videochat yours... Then one day you find out that your online girlfriend is really my in person girlfriend that I sleep with everynight, she tells me what a sucker you are, sending her money, and meanwhile shes giving it to me...

Question: Who has the girlfriend? Who gets to touch her? Who holds her everynight? who has sex with her? - Same analogy for money, if YOU DON'T HOLD IT, YOU DON'T OWN IT!
Answer: I have the girlfriend, you have NOTHING!

NotATether: Besides, we are going to a future where everybody in the world has access to electricity and the internet (Bitcoin cannot be censored). So Bitcoin was literally created for the future.

Me: Lets simply ignore all those without power, and in alot of third world countries intermittent power outage and complete power failures have become more commonplace, but because you and I have electric, that must mean we all do... HAHA! Bitcoin cannot be censored? I actually thought you were serious but then I quickly realized you can't be serious. This has to be a joke... Again, I use to be a bitcoin miner... The miners can refuse transactions for any number of reasons. If I don't want to take your transaction, I don't have to. However, if the government decides to come in and take over all the mining operations and centralize the entire project like they have been doing in various fashions, you now are at a loss for words or able to argue completely. If the government doesn't want it to take place (online), then it won't! They have that power to change what you imagined was a store of value to a store of nothing, with a few laws, and a few armed men to come in and take over everything.

NotATether: Gold is a thing of the past, used only by lenders, and dinosaurs who are unable to appreciate the profound implications of bitcoin (like Peter Schiff and you).

Me:
Gold is a thing of the past, also of the present, and future... Again, here you go again prematurely judging, myself and others, as well as things you have no place speaking about... How many times do you need to be taught a lesson? You think because I only have 41 posts that makes you more knowledgeable? All that means is you spend a lot more time arguing online than actually working in real life.

NotATether: You see Ukraine's internet being controlled by Russia, is bitcoin dying there? No.

What about in Afghanistan, where crypto is banned there? No.

China? No.

Russia? Hell no...

Me:
Lets quickly look up how fast and frequently the governments and banks in those countries are buying physical precious metals... And lets compare to their crypto holdings.. ouch, speechless now? Gonna tell everyone the government doesn't understand or is somehow naive? When the fact is you're the one that's been completely manipulated and brainwashed into thinking you have something, the fact is you have nothing but an empty bag - until your bitcoin is cashed out.

Me: bitcoin is fragile, and relies on so many other things to be able to function. Gold is just there, as it always has been, waiting to prove you wrong.

NotATether: And gold depends on whether people are willing to sell it to you (custodial wallets do not count since it's not even your gold). It's a closed circle of adoption.

Me: Anyone can buy gold... It's dependent on supply and demand, gold actually has real world uses and utility (intrinsic value) outside of being a monetary instrument. Bitcoin has no utility other than to store information, it has no intrinsic value. And you're going to tell me that something that has intrinsic value is a thing of the past, and something that has none is a store of value? I am almost to the point of calling you a lost cause. I never imagined someone could be as slow as the level of incoherent arguments that you are displaying here. Closed circle of adoption? Explain then how the entire world knows what it is and has sought it out since it was first discovered... Many civilizations, actually EVERY civilization, has treasured it. Maybe you don't understand gold, because you've never actually held an ounce of gold in your hands?

Me: As the world goes into an economic collapse even more you think that's going to be sustained?
By what, your hopes and dreams? You gonna force the people that have no clue about what bitcoin is to use it?

NotATether: I can do this all day with you. If you are on a tight schedule because you are in a rush to go find a fallout shelter to save yourself from an imaginary collapse, then that's on you. 99.99% of other people do not share your opinion about economic collapse.

I'm sure you could do this all day, considering the very likely possibility that your living in your parents basement eating cheetos and taco bell and collecting government stimulus... You share the herd mentality, and like all herds they are actively being led to slaughter. I'll take my chances and follow the retards that are stupid and don't understand bitcoin, yet they keep buying gold and giving bitcoin back to idiots like you. Please, don't waste my time again by taking up space on my computer screen with your nonsensical arguments.

My assessment based on your level of understanding is that you suffer from what is known as "cognitive dissonance":

Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong.
When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted.
It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance.
And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief.

[FanEagle]

First of all, it wouldn't exist if we were to make computers exactly the way we are building right now (gold is not even used in some of them nowadays) whereas if we didn't have them, we would still build computers with the information we have, it just wouldn't be as efficient but we could definitely build one, but as we all know it takes years to build something amazing as improvement, so it may take a while but we still could.

Overall, bitcoin as a store of value is not tied to gold or silver, they can all be store of value. Gold is one, and it is a good one, silver is one, it's middle level, and crypto has been growing and becoming bigger for sure.

[darkangel11]

bitcoin has got a store of value.. but this VALUE is not the price

I couldn't agree more. We can only measure value by comparing it to something stable. Unfortunately bitcoin is priced in fiat money and that's never stable, as you can see by the dollar index.
Bitcoin dropped a bit in value this year but in price it crashed, but it happened only because fiat money was pumped at the same time. the dollar was pumped so much that it for the first time in history became worth more than euro. If you pump a price of something it will look like everything else went down in relation.

[NotATether]

we are going to a future where everybody in the world has access to electricity and the internet (Bitcoin cannot be censored).
So Bitcoin was literally created for the future.

This is where you have utterly parted with reality.

How can you be so ignorant about the distant future?

Just because you're distracted by short term events doesn't mean that global trends are not happening.

Fun fact: Most countries in the world have some kind of 3G penetration including developing countries.

Heck, Starlink can already penetrate any part of the world, the only reason everyone's not using it yet is because of ancient international treaties related to telecommunications frequencies.

If you bothered to actually read the current news,
you would see the world is on the brink of collapse
in the following sectors Demographics / Finance / Energy / Food.

FYI:   This is the world you live in.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/24/macron-warns-of-end-of-abundance-as-france-faces-difficult-winter
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-26/here-s-what-europe-is-doing-to-reduce-energy-consumption-for-winter#xj4y7vzkg
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/egypts-cabinet-approves-plan-ration-electricity-save-gas-export-2022-08-11/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/15/kosovo-stops-import-of-electricity-and-begins-energy-rationing
https://time.com/6209272/europes-energy-crisis-getting-worse/
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20220829-french-pm-says-companies-may-face-energy-rationing-this-winter
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/23/china-is-facing-another-power-crunch-but-this-time-its-likely-to-be-different.html
https://slate.com/technology/2022/07/texas-power-grid-electricity-ercot-abbott-heat.html

Again, you are thinking like someone who is stuck in the past. This isn't 1940 anymore where your energy source is at danger to an invading country.

History has shown us that the defeated party is the one that is stuck in the past (Eg. 19th century Ottomans, 20th century French with their post-WWI obsolete army, Hitler with his complete disregard for nuclear weapons).

All one has to do , to censor bitcoin is a phone call.
Governments official call operator of mining pool, you are breaking AML/KYC laws the following transactions will be censored or you will be imprisioned.
Government office call ASIC mining warehouses, you include any transactions to blacklisted addressed and we will cut the power to your warehouse.

They already did that in China and other countries. Why do you think that BTC is still fine a year later?

They'll just move to El Salvador, USA (yes in case you forgot it's not an authoritarian dictatorship) and other havens.

[jossiel]

As for gold, what if equipment and heavy duty machineries don't exists? Then gold and other precious metals don't have a value and they're not a store of value?

The comparison about the arguments relatively to the value of bitcoin is getting odd every time someone is trying to convey and compare it.

[Jo_Liu]

Historically, people have converted their fiat to gold and recently to oil to escape the woes of inflation. But the recent crisis between Russia and Ukraine hints that the world might be ready for a new "store of value". AND WHEN IT COMES TO THE "STORE OF VALUE", I THINK YOU HAVE SOME WRONG OPINION ABOUT IT.
Broadly speaking, a store of value is any object that retains purchasing power into the future, and can be readily exchanged for something else. In other words:

1. A store of value should be worth the same or more over time.
2. A store of value must be exchangeable with something else (like gold, or dollars).

This creates some constraints on good stores of value. A good store of value should not have a very short lifespan, like flowers or milk. It should also be reasonably liquid, which is a measure of how easy or difficult it is to exchange. For example, it’s much easier and faster to exchange a bar of gold for money, than it is to exchange a house for money. Put another way, gold is more ‘liquid’ than real estate. If no one will exchange your store of value for something else of value, then your store of value is effectively worthless. Finally, stores of value should be relatively scarce, or hard to obtain. Air is vitally important, yet its abundance makes it worthless as a store of value.

AND HERE ARE SOME ARGUMENT FOR BITCOIN IS A STORE OF VALUE, FOR YOUR INFORMATION:
There is no denying the newness of Bitcoin, but that newness can also be considered a strength. To give an example, 14 years ago, the first smartphone was released (iPhone). A mere 14 years later, smartphones are ubiquitous around the world. Smartphones allowed people to do old things (browsing the Internet, taking pictures, communicating) in new, better ways. Bitcoin is doing that, but for money and finance. Bitcoin, like many new and disruptive things, is volatile, but if you zoom out it has only gone up -- massively. Indeed, it is the best performing liquid asset in the last decade.

As mentioned, critics of Bitcoin point out that it is artificially scarce, so it is worthless. Yet, plenty of stores of value are artificially scarce. In fact, fiat currency, one of the primary stores of value, is artificially scarce! Governments can always print more, and they often do, but in general they don’t because they want the currency to be relatively scarce. Yet while central banks can reduce the scarcity of fiat currencies at will, Bitcoin’s scarcity is set in stone. There are only 21 million possible bitcoins, and a not insignificant portion of that is lost forever.

It is true that Bitcoin’s technology is not as cutting-edge as other cryptocurrencies, but this can also be seen as a benefit. While newer technologies are likely to have flaws and exploits, Bitcoin is hands down the most battle-tested decentralized network in the world. It has functioned, without downtime, 24/7 since launching in 2009.

Bitcoin is a reasonably liquid asset, and its liquidity is improving by huge percentages every year. Bitcoin is already much easier to transact with than gold, though less easy than fiat currency. Every year more businesses start accepting bitcoin as a viable payment method, which means Bitcoin is developing greater utility. It is currently used for international remittance, and recently has been accepted by some governments as a form of legal tender.

Another important factor contributing to Bitcoin's potential as a store of value derives from its decentralized and purely digital nature. Because Bitcoin is simultaneously everywhere and nowhere, it's difficult to seize or steal yet trivially easy to "take with you." This empowers people to store value independently of third parties, whether they be banks or nation-states, and it eliminates the associated third-party risks. For example, people storing fiat in the bank run the risk that the bank will default or otherwise restrict access to their funds. The same goes for certificates representing gold held in a centralized vault. And while it's true that all of the stores of value discussed in this article can also be stored independently from third parties, the fact that they are physical objects makes storing and moving them inherently more difficult than Bitcoin. While the other stores of value require heavy duty security and are risky or costly to move, Bitcoin - whether it be $100 worth or $100 million dollars worth - can be stored and accessed with little more than a memorized password (and with shared wallets, the single-point-of-failure risk can be mitigated).

[Wind_FURY]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41GPPhLkhI&t=30s

Keeping in mind the most important factor, without gold and silver, all electronic equipment wouldn't exist = bitcoin would not exist. Computers, phones, tv's, etc ALL require silver and gold to be manufactured.

Ser, read the Origins of Money by Nick Szabo, https://nakamotoinstitute.org/shelling-out/

I believe that proves the fact that it DOESN'T MATTER if the Store of Value asset is a metal, pieces of glass, or a SHELL if the social conensus was formed that the Store of Value asset is valuable, or not. It can be debated that Bitcoin would have been worth close to ZERO if it wasn't adopted by the drug dealers of the Dark Markets. But it was, and it has censorship-resistance components that they need which made it valuable for them, and if it was valuable for them, the value surged when many more of them adopted it, and when the value surged, it also has become valuable to US.

[franky1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41GPPhLkhI&t=30s

Keeping in mind the most important factor, without gold and silver, all electronic equipment wouldn't exist = bitcoin would not exist. Computers, phones, tv's, etc ALL require silver and gold to be manufactured.

Ser, read the Origins of Money by Nick Szabo, https://nakamotoinstitute.org/shelling-out/

I believe that proves the fact that it DOESN'T MATTER if the Store of Value asset is a metal, pieces of glass, or a SHELL if the social conensus was formed that the Store of Value asset is valuable, or not. It can be debated that Bitcoin would have been worth close to ZERO if it wasn't adopted by the drug dealers of the Dark Markets. But it was, and it has censorship-resistance components that they need which made it valuable for them, and if it was valuable for them, the value surged when many more of them adopted it, and when the value surged, it also has become valuable to US.

social consensus of money is about agreeing on a medium of exchange (not store of value)
that medium can be twigs, shells, pebbles, gold, paper, or crypto


store of value then applies after agreeing on the medium..
where a set bottom limit no one can obtain for less creates a wall where no one can break this lower limit VALUE.. and that then becomes the store of value amount

this amount can be formed by law(kings orders, government min wage) or by social agreement of no one selling below X means X becomes the LOW (value)


when mediums of exchange barter at different amounts (price variations) this is the speculation above the store of value(low/set law/kings order amount)

EG
if shells are the agreed medium
and its agreed that a shell is worth a minimum of 10 minutes of labour/baking time/items
then store of value becomes that lowest amount
people then barter above this amount depending on their desire/demand to pay a premium(extra) ontop

store of value amount is not the market rate. store of value sits below market prices(separate number).

in 2011 when bitcoin had its 'drug purchase usage' pro/neg advertising/propaganda/media phase..the market rate went from $0.30 upto $32 and settled down to $2
but throughout that year, the store of value started about $0.20 and steadily rose to about $1.50 without the mega jump in the middle!(as a separate number from the market rate)

emphasis store of value is separate from market rate
emphasis store of value sits below the market rate
(emphasis store of value is not the "PRICE"

bitcoins store of value is NOT THE PRICE
bitcoins  store of value is NOT THE ATH

bitcoins tore of value sits BELOW the market rate. and is a separate statistic number
its set by the cheapest possible way to obtain bitcoin ON THE PLANET
a number no one can go below, a number that cant be broke/reached by all
a number that by being at such limitbecomes the wall/rule/protection of that amount because no one is able to buy/sell at that amount

bitcoins current SoV is about $13.5k for the year, and getting near $15k for the quarter.

to protect most of your wealth in SoV.. buy bitcoin while its cheap

the lower the price the better value your wealth is protected by

if your buying at ATH. well expect to not have much of your wealth protected
no one should be buying at ATH thinkingthey are protecting their wealth in the short term

bitcoins deflationary nature will slowly increase the SoV amount so if you have patience then slowly the SoV will protect previous high price buys. but you need patience.

EG
in 2017 SoV was only a couple $700 and went upto only a couple $k
but the PRICE went upto $20k
meaning those buying at $20k only had 10% SoV wealth protection.
however waiting 4 years their $20k buy is now SoV protected at 75%
where by each year you hold the SoV protects your wealth by more %

EG
golds SoV is currently about $900. but the market price is about $1700
gold is a SoV of 53% of wealth

Fiats SoV is far far far worse, and loses SoV by x% a year

[LegendaryK]

we are going to a future where everybody in the world has access to electricity and the internet (Bitcoin cannot be censored).
So Bitcoin was literally created for the future.

This is where you have utterly parted with reality.

How can you be so ignorant about the distant future?

I can say the same to you ,

You might want to look over https://zeihan.com/end-of-the-world/
So you won't be caught flat footed in the new world , which is really the old world with the end of globalization.

In The End of the World is Just the Beginning, author and geopolitical strategist Peter Zeihan maps out the next world:
a world where countries or regions will have no choice but to make their own goods,
grow their own food,
secure their own energy,
fight their own battles,
and do it all with populations that are both shrinking and aging.

Their are No Dyson spheres,
Their are No Commercial Nuclear Reactors using Thorium ,
Tidal Energy is not being Utilized Commercially WorldWide by Coastal Communities.

Until one or all of the above are implemented, the future won't be energy abundant.  


FYI:
One other reason why bitcoin is not a store of value.
When the energy cost to mine gold exceeds the value of gold, the miners shut down for months to years , until gold mining is again cost effective.
When the energy cost to mine BTC exceeds the value of BTC , the miners go broke, and the entire network ceases to function. ie: Death spiral
Gold can not death spiral, as it has multiple uses .

[NotATether]

we are going to a future where everybody in the world has access to electricity and the internet (Bitcoin cannot be censored).
So Bitcoin was literally created for the future.

This is where you have utterly parted with reality.

How can you be so ignorant about the distant future?

I can say the same to you ,

You might want to look over https://zeihan.com/end-of-the-world/
So you won't be caught flat footed in the new world , which is really the old world with the end of globalization.

In The End of the World is Just the Beginning, author and geopolitical strategist Peter Zeihan maps out the next world:
a world where countries or regions will have no choice but to make their own goods,
grow their own food,
secure their own energy,
fight their own battles,
and do it all with populations that are both shrinking and aging.

Their are No Dyson spheres,
Their are No Commercial Nuclear Reactors using Thorium ,
Tidal Energy is not being Utilized Commercially WorldWide by Coastal Communities.

Until one or all of the above are implemented, the future won't be energy abundant.  

You forgot one other option: Find the Tesseract.

Now off you go.

[LegendaryK]

we are going to a future where everybody in the world has access to electricity and the internet (Bitcoin cannot be censored).
So Bitcoin was literally created for the future.

This is where you have utterly parted with reality.

How can you be so ignorant about the distant future?

I can say the same to you ,

You might want to look over https://zeihan.com/end-of-the-world/
So you won't be caught flat footed in the new world , which is really the old world with the end of globalization.

In The End of the World is Just the Beginning, author and geopolitical strategist Peter Zeihan maps out the next world:
a world where countries or regions will have no choice but to make their own goods,
grow their own food,
secure their own energy,
fight their own battles,
and do it all with populations that are both shrinking and aging.

Their are No Dyson spheres,
Their are No Commercial Nuclear Reactors using Thorium ,
Tidal Energy is not being Utilized Commercially WorldWide by Coastal Communities.

Until one or all of the above are implemented, the future won't be energy abundant.  

You forgot one other option: Find the Tesseract.

Now off you go.

If you can find one and plug it into the power grid, I'll admit your energy abundance future could happen,
so will you admit until you find one, that the energy poor future is arriving?

[BitcoinMoses]

Re: BITCOIN IS NOT A STORE OF VALUE

 BITCOIN IS THE ECONOMIC VALUE.

Wait and see after another decade later.
You will definitely regrets feel shame for your own foolishness.

Bitcoin is Encrypted Monetary System and Money itself.
Fiat Paper is not money but monopoly currency.