Slave soldiers?

[paxmao]

Most of us have heard about the child soldiers in some conflicts in Africa and even a while ago in Latin America. However I would like to ask you guys if you consider a forced conscript pretty much the same as a slave.

I am asking because the RF is now forcing people to become soldiers under threat of being sent to prison and they are being sent sometimes with just days of training and obsolete and malfunctioning equipment to fight in the war in Ukraine. For me, these soldiers are just slaves. They are not defending their country or trying to save the lives of their loved ones, they are just accepting being sent to kill and die for no good reason.

[BADecker]

Probably every country at times of war has a "draft." The USA has had them back in the Viet Nam war, and in WW2. Because of the way freedom is in the US now, a draft might not work any longer. But drafts are nothing new. Where have you been that you don't know this yet?

[suchmoon]

Right now in Russia the fine for not showing up after receiving the mobilization subpoena (or explicitly refusing the receipt thereof) is 3000 rubles, i.e. ~$50. Not being home when they deliver it has no consequences AFAIK. There were some reports of police checkpoints at subway stations etc but again, that's just for subpoenas - one can refuse to take it, or take it and still choose to not go. There is no criminal penalty, not for the subpoena part anyway.

However deserting after being mobilized (i.e. after you show up as requested by the subpoena and pass the medical exam etc) is a crime. It's also a crime to not show up for the annual draft. This is where it gets a bit murky, because draftees are not supposed to be sent to foreign wars but now that Russia proclaimed the annexations it's no longer "foreign" and never was officially a "war"... Draft starts today, remains to be seen how that goes.

I'd say the mobilized cannon fodder are more idiots than slaves. $50 seems like a good deal for staying alive. On the other hand, the promised salary of $3000 per month is A LOT of money in most places in Russia outside of Moscow / St. Pete. So... greedy idiots?

[yazher]

If they don't have any free will anymore then they are now became slave to their nation's leader and might be sacrificing their lives for absolutely nothing because this war is no longer consider defensive rather it's a total suicidal to go out there with just little knowledge of their training for the actual war. How in the world they keep doing this? I mean they might pro-long the situations but the ending is still the same and we don't really see what's really going on out there because the media only show us the things they wanted us to see.

[BADecker]

Switzerland has a civil service time for all their men. It's almost the same as a draft for war or any other purpose.

Ukraine has a draft for their men... fight or punishment... fight the enemy, but if you run, you will be shot by your commanders, in the back as you run.

But I understand you. You are simply fighting on the side of Ukraine rather than Russia. And I admire your decisiveness... that you have joined a side in the war. So, what you are really doing is upholding Russia's draft by admitting to Ukraine's draft and the drafts of all the other countries.

[paxmao]

Right now in Russia the fine for not showing up after receiving the mobilization subpoena (or explicitly refusing the receipt thereof) is 3000 rubles, i.e. ~$50. Not being home when they deliver it has no consequences AFAIK. There were some reports of police checkpoints at subway stations etc but again, that's just for subpoenas - one can refuse to take it, or take it and still choose to not go. There is no criminal penalty, not for the subpoena part anyway.

However deserting after being mobilized (i.e. after you show up as requested by the subpoena and pass the medical exam etc) is a crime. It's also a crime to not show up for the annual draft. This is where it gets a bit murky, because draftees are not supposed to be sent to foreign wars but now that Russia proclaimed the annexations it's no longer "foreign" and never was officially a "war"... Draft starts today, remains to be seen how that goes.

I'd say the mobilized cannon fodder are more idiots than slaves. $50 seems like a good deal for staying alive. On the other hand, the promised salary of $3000 per month is A LOT of money in most places in Russia outside of Moscow / St. Pete. So... greedy idiots?

There is something here that does not match. If it is that easy as simply saying "I refuse this suspiciously camouflaged-tinted envelope which reads "Ministry of Defence - Recruiting section" why are people flying right after the draft is announced? What would you say about the news about people fleeing to avoid the draft? They do not have the 50?

There may be people who may simply not know that they can just not go to the office?

An estimated 400,000 Russians have fled to nearby countries like Kazakhstan, Georgia, Mongolia—as well as the European Union and countries further afield like Turkey—since the draft was announced in late September,

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2022/10/04/russians-use-drastic-measures-to-avoid-putins-military-draft-including-self-mutilation/?sh=215f64d46d1b

Switzerland has a civil service time for all their men. It's almost the same as a draft for war or any other purpose.

...

Switzerland does not have any permanent army, except those clowny guys that "protect the Pope" since centuries ago... and with same weapons as centuries ago. So, yes they do have to spend a few summers training and the like. However, I am yet to see the Swiss Federation sending any soldiers to a war in another country. I am sure you get the difference.

US effectively did so during Vietnam, I am sure you remember the backslash and the social unrest. Why would you think this is different... well, is not, is equally bad. However, there are a couple of things that do not make sense:
- We are not in the fifties. People do not accept blindly to be sent to die unless they are really convinced or they are pro soldiers.
- Modern armies are not based in numbers of poorly trained soldiers, but in less people with much better training and knowledge. For each person fighting, there is nearly one other on the logistics, preparation, training and support.

Hence, I still believe that sending people to the front that would rather not go, for a war that is not defensive, is similar to slavery.
 

[suchmoon]

There is something here that does not match. If it is that easy as simply saying "I refuse this suspiciously camouflaged-tinted envelope which reads "Ministry of Defence - Recruiting section" why are people flying right after the draft is announced? What would you say about the news about people fleeing to avoid the draft? They do not have the 50?

There may be people who may simply not know that they can just not go to the office?

Draft != mobilization.

What they had from September till now was "partial mobilization". One can evade it by not taking the subpoena. May not be easy in some circumstances (for example subpoenas can be handed out at work, or at police checkpoints) but my understanding is that most people simply don't resist even if it's as trivial as refusing to open the door or sign a piece of paper.

I don't know why they were fleeing, perhaps thinking that things will get worse, borders will be closed, "partial" becomes "total" and/or more difficult to evade. For example a law is now being proposed to make evading mobilization a crime similar to evading the draft (see below).

Annual draft of 18-year-olds starts now, evading that has much more serious consequences, including jail time. Although as I mentioned above technically draftees are not supposed to be sent to war but this being Russia they likely will be.

[Betwrong]

Right now in Russia the fine for not showing up after receiving the mobilization subpoena (or explicitly refusing the receipt thereof) is 3000 rubles, i.e. ~$50. Not being home when they deliver it has no consequences AFAIK. There were some reports of police checkpoints at subway stations etc but again, that's just for subpoenas - one can refuse to take it, or take it and still choose to not go. There is no criminal penalty, not for the subpoena part anyway.

However deserting after being mobilized (i.e. after you show up as requested by the subpoena and pass the medical exam etc) is a crime. It's also a crime to not show up for the annual draft. This is where it gets a bit murky, because draftees are not supposed to be sent to foreign wars but now that Russia proclaimed the annexations it's no longer "foreign" and never was officially a "war"... Draft starts today, remains to be seen how that goes.

I'd say the mobilized cannon fodder are more idiots than slaves. $50 seems like a good deal for staying alive. On the other hand, the promised salary of $3000 per month is A LOT of money in most places in Russia outside of Moscow / St. Pete. So... greedy idiots?

They are. They are counting not only on the promised high salary, but on the things they think they will steal from Ukrainian homes. That is their motivation for going to the war, because most of them drafted to the war live in places like this



where they see microwave ovens and washing machines only in TV-series. First you bring your people to these conditions, and then you send them to loot a neighbouring country. It won't work. People with such motivation and goals simply can't be victorious.

[Desmong]

Most of us have heard about the child soldiers in some conflicts in Africa and even a while ago in Latin America. However I would like to ask you guys if you consider a forced conscript pretty much the same as a slave.

I am asking because the RF is now forcing people to become soldiers under threat of being sent to prison and they are being sent sometimes with just days of training and obsolete and malfunctioning equipment to fight in the war in Ukraine. For me, these soldiers are just slaves. They are not defending their country or trying to save the lives of their loved ones, they are just accepting being sent to kill and die for no good reason.

This is a time of far for the Ukrainian government and there is nothing they can do for now to fight Russia only to build soldiers that will be able to start and fight for the country since the Ukrainian government are really losing soldiers and man power. This do happens in time of war and had happened in many countries not today. They need man power to repel the Russians that is why there is need for this.

[Gyfts]

Switzerland does not have any permanent army, except those clowny guys that "protect the Pope" since centuries ago... and with same weapons as centuries ago. So, yes they do have to spend a few summers training and the like. However, I am yet to see the Swiss Federation sending any soldiers to a war in another country. I am sure you get the difference.

US effectively did so during Vietnam, I am sure you remember the backslash and the social unrest. Why would you think this is different... well, is not, is equally bad. However, there are a couple of things that do not make sense:
- We are not in the fifties. People do not accept blindly to be sent to die unless they are really convinced or they are pro soldiers.
- Modern armies are not based in numbers of poorly trained soldiers, but in less people with much better training and knowledge. For each person fighting, there is nearly one other on the logistics, preparation, training and support.

Hence, I still believe that sending people to the front that would rather not go, for a war that is not defensive, is similar to slavery.
 

It's similar to slavery but I wouldn't call it slavery only because there is some factor of free will and decision making attached (albeit a forced decision). Either serve, or go to prison. The proverbial slave doesn't have a choice.

The way I understand forced military service works is that it's for those eligible and most places don't mandate their soldiers commit suicide in an unwinnable war either. The U.S. in Vietnam was a bit of an exception.

It's not like it would be difficult to excuse yourself of military service if you were so inclined. Most countries will strike you for just cause and that bar is low. The Russians don't have a chance.

[paxmao]

There is something here that does not match. If it is that easy as simply saying "I refuse this suspiciously camouflaged-tinted envelope which reads "Ministry of Defence - Recruiting section" why are people flying right after the draft is announced? What would you say about the news about people fleeing to avoid the draft? They do not have the 50?

There may be people who may simply not know that they can just not go to the office?

Draft != mobilization.

What they had from September till now was "partial mobilization". One can evade it by not taking the subpoena. May not be easy in some circumstances (for example subpoenas can be handed out at work, or at police checkpoints) but my understanding is that most people simply don't resist even if it's as trivial as refusing to open the door or sign a piece of paper.

I don't know why they were fleeing, perhaps thinking that things will get worse, borders will be closed, "partial" becomes "total" and/or more difficult to evade. For example a law is now being proposed to make evading mobilization a crime similar to evading the draft (see below).

Annual draft of 18-year-olds starts now, evading that has much more serious consequences, including jail time. Although as I mentioned above technically draftees are not supposed to be sent to war but this being Russia they likely will be.

I just saw the last "public discussion" of the Chief Psychos speaking about how are they retreating from Kherson (to be confirmed) because they "want to save the lives of the RF soldiers". My conclusions about it:

- The soldiers would have been all right, they would have simply surrendered en-masse and probably marry some Ukrainian widows and live happily ever after free from Adolf Putin.
- The fact that they abandon the city means that the scarcity of cannon fodder is much more acute.
- They are trying to convince future recruits that they will be cared for.

All this points to very little depth in the front lines. The classic structures of reserves at 5, 15 and 30 kilometres are not being implemented, breaking RF's own tactical manuals and that is an indication of extreme weakness and lack of resources. They are very close to their "safe territory" and the supply bases.

I am really surprised if at this point anyone with an internet connection would join.

[Betwrong]

~ I am really surprised if at this point anyone with an internet connection would join.

I think, they will join because of money. Right now Russian soldiers are paid three times the national average, and most of those people who join the army have never received even the national average. They are from the places where the national average, around $1,000 per month is an unattainable dream, so 3 times of that surely makes many of such people willing to join. But in the modern war they are just cannon fodder. They will not enjoy the money actually, because they will be dead.

[suchmoon]

They will not enjoy the money actually, because they will be dead.

If they're dead, they families must get paid ~7 million rubles. Many of them will go "missing" instead. Most of the "Moskva" sailors are still "missing". Putin saves 7 million.

[o48o]

Most of us have heard about the child soldiers in some conflicts in Africa and even a while ago in Latin America. However I would like to ask you guys if you consider a forced conscript pretty much the same as a slave.

I am asking because the RF is now forcing people to become soldiers under threat of being sent to prison and they are being sent sometimes with just days of training and obsolete and malfunctioning equipment to fight in the war in Ukraine. For me, these soldiers are just slaves. They are not defending their country or trying to save the lives of their loved ones, they are just accepting being sent to kill and die for no good reason.

I know many people do, but then on the other hand i don't live in any of those aggressor countries who attact others without a reason. To me this question is similar to "Do you consider paying taxes as slavery?". I don't because they are for common good. Just like civil service in here that you can choose if military service is against your moral conviction.

I consider it as a work national duty and a sign of a working society where we are willing to work for common good.

And child soldiers are a whole different issue as they are not developed enough to work as consenting adults.

[uchegod-21]

~ I am really surprised if at this point anyone with an internet connection would join.

I think, they will join because of money. Right now Russian soldiers are paid three times the national average, and most of those people who join the army have never received even the national average. They are from the places where the national average, around $1,000 per month is an unattainable dream, so 3 times of that surely makes many of such people willing to join. But in the modern war they are just cannon fodder. They will not enjoy the money actually, because they will be dead.

I was trying to understand the post whether the under age are being forced to join the army, this your post has helped to clarify my thoughts that these people willingly join the army because of the three times increase of the wages of the Ukraine soldiers.
There is nothing money cannot influence even when it is not certain that they will live to eat the money.
The World human right needs to look into the matter it it is not a good habit fighting a war you don't know its origin because of money

[yhiaali3]

Yes, in my opinion, this is slavery. To go to fight in a country other than your own to achieve the dreams of the president or the government. This is truly slavery. When your country is exposed to danger by an external enemy, it becomes a duty for all those who are able to bear arms to defend their country, but in such cases it is not a duty to fight For the ambitions of some stupid politicians with power and glory.
This is disguised slavery under the name of homeland security, national security and the like, but it is in fact dreams of power or the wrong vision of a president who thinks of himself and his ambitions more than he thinks of his people.

[worldofcoins]

Most of us have heard about the child soldiers in some conflicts in Africa and even a while ago in Latin America. However I would like to ask you guys if you consider a forced conscript pretty much the same as a slave.

I am asking because the RF is now forcing people to become soldiers under threat of being sent to prison and they are being sent sometimes with just days of training and obsolete and malfunctioning equipment to fight in the war in Ukraine. For me, these soldiers are just slaves. They are not defending their country or trying to save the lives of their loved ones, they are just accepting being sent to kill and die for no good reason.

Yes, I do agree that they are not more than slave soldiers. However, United Nations must take decisive actions against the same.
To become a soldier, you must've your free will and intention.
You can't force someone to become a soldier just because of the threat of sending them to prison or other consequences.

[Maestro75]

However I would like to ask you guys if you consider a forced conscript pretty much the same as a slave.

Every citizen has a civic duty to defend its country during wars, whether they are soldiers or not. Those who try to run away during wars are cowards. If you do not fight to defend the territory of your country against outsiders because you do not want to die, what about those who defend it and not get killed in the process? Not everybody dies during wars. If everyone runs away during wars who will be there to defend the country? Everyone who does not want to be conscripted during a war should be jailed. They are cowards who love comfort more than freedom. Conscription is not slavery.

[Betwrong]

Yes, in my opinion, this is slavery. To go to fight in a country other than your own to achieve the dreams of the president or the government. This is truly slavery. When your country is exposed to danger by an external enemy, it becomes a duty for all those who are able to bear arms to defend their country, but in such cases it is not a duty to fight For the ambitions of some stupid politicians with power and glory.
This is disguised slavery under the name of homeland security, national security and the like, but it is in fact dreams of power or the wrong vision of a president who thinks of himself and his ambitions more than he thinks of his people.

The thing is that they are being lied to by Russian propaganda for years that "NATO is going to invade Russia", or something like that. That's why the Russian people, those who are not going to fight themselves, support the invasion. The number of such people is decreasing day by day, but is still high.

As for the "slave soldiers", or, in other words, the cannon fodder, many of them just want the money and a microwave and stuff, they think they can steal in Ukraine.

[paxmao]

Most of us have heard about the child soldiers in some conflicts in Africa and even a while ago in Latin America. However I would like to ask you guys if you consider a forced conscript pretty much the same as a slave.

I am asking because the RF is now forcing people to become soldiers under threat of being sent to prison and they are being sent sometimes with just days of training and obsolete and malfunctioning equipment to fight in the war in Ukraine. For me, these soldiers are just slaves. They are not defending their country or trying to save the lives of their loved ones, they are just accepting being sent to kill and die for no good reason.

I know many people do, but then on the other hand i don't live in any of those aggressor countries who attact others without a reason. To me this question is similar to "Do you consider paying taxes as slavery?". I don't because they are for common good. Just like civil service in here that you can choose if military service is against your moral conviction.

I consider it as a work national duty and a sign of a working society where we are willing to work for common good.

And child soldiers are a whole different issue as they are not developed enough to work as consenting adults.

Paying taxes is not the same as killing others (or be killed) - most people will understand that, and I hope you are one of those who can notice there is a big difference between the two.

RF conscripts do not enjoy the luxury of choosing Civil Service (please correct me if I am wrong, but it is military or prison). You can argue, and that is very debatable, that you have to defend your country. However Ukraine is a war of aggression and annexation, so there is no point there either. There does not seem to be any "common good" on this case.