Scammed by Trustdice (Account banned and money confiscated)

[Poika5]

What happened::
My account got banned after i tried to withdraw my money.

Scammers Profile Link:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=2569866

Reference Link:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5126117.0

Amount Scammed:
0.0996BTC
Payment Method:
BTC
Proof of Payment:
https://mempool.space/tx/9506ef9332bdc8ef681a6256dca3f9bb64a852be8c39354f9f4cb1622812691a
PM/Chat Logs:
The problems started 5 days ago when i tried to withdraw my money, the support told me that my withdrawal was cancelled, because i didnt finish my 5x deposit rollover, which was a blatant lie. I double checked all of my bets and saw that i deposited 0.01874467BTC & had wagered 0.12296BTC(I have pictures of all my bets).


Then finally my second withdrawal went under review, and 5 days later im banned.


Additional Notes:
Got this email from Trustdice after getting banned:
Im not sure what they are exactly accusing me of, so i will answer to every point:

We regret to inform you that your TrustDice account has been banned and the withdrawal funds were confiscated, this decision was taken according to the following terms and conditions.

18.1. Without restricting our ability to rely on other remedies that may be available to us, we may suspend and/or terminate your account, cancel any outstanding bets and/or confiscate any or all funds in your account at our absolute discretion if:

* we determine that you are acting in a manner that is detrimental to the conduct of our business;

Not sure what that means.

* We determine that you are using TrustDice.win in a manner that gives you an unfair advantage, for example making bets on insight or professional knowledge about a sport gained via personal involvement or participation in the particular field of sport/esport

No, i dont play in the NBA(unfortunately), i dont play in any esports league either.

or using the late bets strategy

No, i only placed ~2 live bets.

* we suspect that you have registered, manage or direct your betting activity on multiple user accounts in an attempt to hide your betting activity, bypass our set trading limits or violate any promotion Terms and Conditions;

No, i have 1 account in Trustdice, but i also use Duelbits & Bitsler which use the same sportsprovider, never had any issues there. Also multiaccounting in Trustdice makes 0 sense, because there are so many clones(sportsbookies) w the same odds.

I have pictures of all my bets, if anybody wants to check them.
I have used over 50 bookies in my lifetime, and i have never seen anything like this before.

So @Coinbox1, please explain what exactly did i do wrong, meanwhile i will finish my Askgambler&CasinoGurus complaints.

[Coinbox1]

Hello,

TrustDice team here.
Could you please send us your account details via DM? Unfortunately we cannot locate a user id based on what you provided.

Thank you.

--------------------------------------------------------
Final Update 20221229:

As both party agreed, an AskGamblers ticket was opened.

Following a careful review and consideration of all the information, details and/or proof presented by both parties, AskGamblers decided to support TrustDice team's stance and declares the TrustDice team's decision has been in line with the T&C.



As of now, AskGamblers team considers this case as revolved. So do we, as OP has been confirmed to be in violation of T&C by the mutually-agreed reputable arbitrator, AskGamblers.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Bitcointalk community,

Throughout this entire thread, we discussed with Mr. holydarkness about this case for days. Initially we thought he might just want to act as an unbiased arbitrator, but later we realized that he’s been deliberately misinterpreting our statements and attempted to put words in our mouth, and he has done it for 3 times in this single thread. Fearing such misinformation techniques might mislead the audience, we decide to make these public.

The 1st time: he asked us about a clause in our T&C.

[...]

* We determine that you are using TrustDice.win in a manner that gives you an unfair advantage, for example making bets on insight or professional knowledge about a sport gained via personal involvement or participation in the particular field of sport/esport

[...]

Were you saying that an educated guess in your sportsbetting is not allowed? Suppose I'm a retired professional soccer player who spent his time compiling data and player's statistics, then analyze them and guessed the strategy their coach will utilize based on my prior experience as a professional player, and I won. This is illegal?

We then explained it in details to him:

Suppose I'm a retired professional soccer player who spent his time compiling data and player's statistics, then analyze them and guessed the strategy their coach will utilize based on my prior experience as a professional player, and I won. This is illegal?

(Note: This is not related to this case in discussion here) Most definitely not. "personal involvement" here typically means
- the player himself or herself and individuals who are connected to the player and therefore have access to the internal info, or even able to influence the outcome of the game;
- personal presence on the field of play during the game;

18.1. Without restricting our ability to rely on other remedies that may be available to us, we may suspend and/or terminate your account, cancel any outstanding bets and/or confiscate any or all funds in your account at our absolute discretion if:
* We determine that you are using TrustDice.win in a manner that gives you an unfair advantage, for example making bets on insight or professional knowledge about a sport gained via personal involvement or participation in the particular field of sport or using the late bets strategy;
However this clause would most likely be triggered if you were in discussion with your old pal who is inside the team and paid him to access information that most people don't know about. The same applies if your old pal pays you to bet with his internal info. Unfortunately, crypto sports books like ours attract insider betting these days.

He then claim we confirmed that OP was breaking that clause:

you banned their account because they had suspicious behavior --i.e. insider info

This is simply not true. No where in our statement says it was the clause of the ban. The explanation was addresses to him for his question. Plus, in fact, we had explicitly written there that the explanation is not directly related to the case of this thread.

(Note: This is not related to this case in discussion here)

We didn’t understand how he could make the mistake, and thought he might be just a very bad reader.  We had to respectfully correct him:

I am afraid there is a major misunderstanding here. As I previously stated:

(Note: This is not related to this case in discussion here)

So when I discussed about insider info above, I was simply answering your question about the T&C clause related to insider info. Such explanation has no direct relevance to the OP's case, or any specific cases. It was just to explain the clause.

But that didn't stop him from misinterpreting things. The 2nd time was when he he claimed our Customer Support mentioning 1 clause means that’s the cause of the ban.

The way your team explained to OP on email suggested that their account is banned due to insider info --why else would you mention this point on email if that is not the reason or related at any degree to their account freezing-- and I take that it's far from it, then? OP's account is not suspected of insider info?

In doing this, he completely ignored that fact that our Customer Support mentioned 3 clauses in the email, which all could be the cause:

We regret to inform you that your TrustDice account has been banned and the withdrawal funds were confiscated, this decision was taken according to the following terms and conditions.
18.1. Without restricting our ability to rely on other remedies that may be available to us, we may suspend and/or terminate your account, cancel any outstanding bets and/or confiscate any or all funds in your account at our absolute discretion if:
* we determine that you are acting in a manner that is detrimental to the conduct of our business;
* We determine that you are using TrustDice.win in a manner that gives you an unfair advantage, for example making bets on insight or professional knowledge about a sport gained via personal involvement or participation in the particular field of sport/esport or using the late bets strategy;
* we suspect that you have registered, manage or direct your betting activity on multiple user accounts in an attempt to hide your betting activity, bypass our set trading limits or violate any promotion Terms and Conditions;

The 3rd time was when he accused us of not providing reasons for the ban:

by refusing to specify the reason like this, you actually cast an impression that you're the one being wrong here. Anyone reading this case would probably think like me, that if you have nothing to hide and sure that OP is an abuser, you'll be more than happy to provide --at the very least-- the reason why they're being banned.

But we clearly did, and that was even directly addressed to Mr.holydarkness himself. Yet he chose to ignore it and makes false accusations:

Have you studied OP's account closely and have solid proof before freezing it or were you just ban-first-ask-later?

Prior to the ban, our Risk Management team have found substantial abnormalities surrounding the OP's account and other suspicious behaviors.

As the nature of this conversation gets increasing non-factual, we decide to cease engaging in this thread because this kind of conversion doesn’t align with our company policies.


With regard to the OP's accusation, as both party agreed, an AskGambler ticket was opened in case anyone wants to follow this up.


Thank you.
TrustDice Team

[Coinbox1]

Hi there,

Amount Scammed:
0.996BTC

While we start to review the whole case, could you kindly elaborate on how, from your perspective, that in total 0.996 BTC is involved here? This number is not in line with the requested withdrawal we see from our system, nor with your provided screenshot.

This will help us better understand your side of the story.

Thank you.
TrustDice Team

[Poika5]

Hi there,

Amount Scammed:
0.996BTC

While we start to review the whole case, could you kindly elaborate on how, from your perspective, that in total 0.996 BTC is involved here? This number is not in line with any of the requested withdrawal we see from our system, nor with your provided screenshot.

This will help us better understand your side of the story.

Thank you.
TrustDice Team

Sorry typo, i clearly meant 0.0996btc.

[Laki21000]

I support the user, he faced bookmaker fraud, just like me. I ask you to see all users, how they know how to lie.

[Poika5]

MOI DRUG COINBOX. i gave you my username 20 hours ago, and i still dont know why i got banned(Clearly neither do you).

So lets make a deal, if Trustdice pays me today, i will donate all the money(0.1btc) to the Ukrainian army.
I will post the transaction hash and everything!

Also thank you for this opportunity, Im literally having the time of my life right now.

[fortunecrypto]

MOI DRUG COINBOX. i gave you my username 10 hours ago, and i still dont know why i got banned(Clearly neither do you).

So lets make a deal, if Trustdice pays me today, i will donate all the money(0.1btc) to the Ukrainian army.
I will post the transaction hash and everything!

Also thank you for this opportunity, Im literally having the time of my life right now.

That's a good thing to do and worth a praise, but if you really deserve your win there should be no condition because you've won it fairly, you are putting Trustdice in an unfavorable decision because of the condition, so let them grant you your winning based on fairness not because there's a condition attached to it that might influence the outcome of the results after you receive your winning because you deserve then proceed to donate and you'll have our praise.
Future scammers might use this kind of condition just to force casinos to have their money coming from fraud.

[Poika5]

Got this email(KYC) from Trustdice.

@Coinbox1
1. Why did i get banned? Its been +24 hours.
2. Will you unban me if i finish the KYC?

We would like to kindly inform you that based on our terms & conditions you would need to pass our KYC process. Could you please provide:

1. Proof of ID: Your ID card or Driver's license or Passport;
It should be a photo with good quality and light.

2. Proof of Address: A photo of a utility bill (paper version) or bank statement (paper version) dated within the last three months and clearly showing your name.

3. A selfie with your photo ID, current date, and your TrustDice username.

Please send the above documents to email: compliance@trustdice.win

We really apologize for the inconvenience! We hope for your understanding.

[Coinbox1]

Hello Poika5,

I learned from our Compliance team that a KYC request has been sent to you. Please kindly complete the KYC procedure via email ASAP.

Thank you
TrustDice Team

[Poika5]

Hello Poika5,

I learned from our Compliance team that a KYC request has been sent to you. Please kindly complete the KYC procedure via email ASAP.

Thank you
TrustDice Team

1. The reason for my ban / Or A public apology from Trustdice representative.
2. Will you unban me if i finish the KYC?

Please kindly answer ASAP.

[Laki21000]

Hello Poika5,

I learned from our Compliance team that a KYC request has been sent to you. Please kindly complete the KYC procedure via email ASAP.

Thank you
TrustDice Team

1. The reason for my ban / Or A public apology from Trustdice representative.
2. Will you unban me if i finish the KYC?

Please kindly answer ASAP.

They also asked me for a KYC, and after that they banned me, why is it needed then? not the fact that they will unban after passing the KYC

[holydarkness]

For OP, Poika5, can you provide the email you mentioned on your opening post as oart of your evidence in screenshot instead of just quoted text? It'll be more reliable that way.


For Coinbox1, I don't think I understand the situation correctly, so please enlighten us. First, was OP's account banned because of the reason he mentioned on the quoted email --the unfair advantage-- or because they're yet to fulfill the KYC TnC?

Second, I'll assume for now that the quoted text from OP is legit and originated from your email to them, as below,

[...]

* We determine that you are using TrustDice.win in a manner that gives you an unfair advantage, for example making bets on insight or professional knowledge about a sport gained via personal involvement or participation in the particular field of sport/esport

[...]

Were you saying that an educated guess in your sportsbetting is not allowed? Suppose I'm a retired professional soccer player who spent his time compiling data and player's statistics, then analyze them and guessed the strategy their coach will utilize based on my prior experience as a professional player, and I won. This is illegal?


edit: tidying up the quoted post

[Poika5]

For OP, Poika5, can you provide the email you mentioned on your opening post as oart of your evidence in screenshot instead of just quoted text? It'll be more reliable that way.

They are saying i broke one of these rules, unfortunately Coinbox1 wont specify the exact reason for the ban.

I think either
1. He genuinely doesnt know.
2. The reason is too absurd/embarrassing, and hes afraid of the negative feedback.

I already exposed his lies in this other thread, so he might be a little scared of me.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5425888.0

[Coinbox1]

Hello holydarkness,

For Coinbox1, I don't think I understand the situation correctly, so please enlighten us. First, was OP's account banned because of the reason he mentioned on the quoted email --the unfair advantage-- or because they're yet to fulfill the KYC TnC?

KYC is needed in this circumstance based on our T&C and it is imperative for a comprehensive evaluation of the situation. In the absence of it, I am afraid it will be impossible for us to comment on what might have happened with confidence, or provide any further assistance.

Suppose I'm a retired professional soccer player who spent his time compiling data and player's statistics, then analyze them and guessed the strategy their coach will utilize based on my prior experience as a professional player, and I won. This is illegal?

(Note: This is not related to this case in discussion here) Most definitely not. "personal involvement" here typically means
- the player himself or herself and individuals who are connected to the player and therefore have access to the internal info, or even able to influence the outcome of the game;
- personal presence on the field of play during the game;

18.1. Without restricting our ability to rely on other remedies that may be available to us, we may suspend and/or terminate your account, cancel any outstanding bets and/or confiscate any or all funds in your account at our absolute discretion if:
* We determine that you are using TrustDice.win in a manner that gives you an unfair advantage, for example making bets on insight or professional knowledge about a sport gained via personal involvement or participation in the particular field of sport or using the late bets strategy;

However this clause would most likely be triggered if you were in discussion with your old pal who is inside the team and paid him to access information that most people don't know about. The same applies if your old pal pays you to bet with his internal info. Unfortunately, crypto sports books like ours attract insider betting these days.

Thank you.
TrustDice Team

[Poika5]

KYC is needed in this circumstance based on our T&C and it is imperative for a comprehensive evaluation of the situation. In the absence of it, I am afraid it will be impossible for us to discuss what might have happened with confidence, or provide any further assistance.

10minutes before i got banned, i asked the support if they want to finish the KYC.
Instead Trustdice decided to ban me, and ignore my emails.

In the absence of it, I am afraid it will be impossible for us to discuss what might have happened with confidence, or provide any further assistance.

You just confessed that Trustdice decided to ban me without any real proof/confidence.
I appreciate it.

[Laki21000]

Hello holydarkness,

For Coinbox1, I don't think I understand the situation correctly, so please enlighten us. First, was OP's account banned because of the reason he mentioned on the quoted email --the unfair advantage-- or because they're yet to fulfill the KYC TnC?

KYC is needed in this circumstance based on our T&C and it is imperative for a comprehensive evaluation of the situation. In the absence of it, I am afraid it will be impossible for us to comment on what might have happened with confidence, or provide any further assistance.

Suppose I'm a retired professional soccer player who spent his time compiling data and player's statistics, then analyze them and guessed the strategy their coach will utilize based on my prior experience as a professional player, and I won. This is illegal?

(Note: This is not related to this case in discussion here) Most definitely not. "personal involvement" here typically means
- the player himself or herself and individuals who are connected to the player and therefore have access to the internal info, or even able to influence the outcome of the game;
- personal presence on the field of play during the game;

18.1. Without restricting our ability to rely on other remedies that may be available to us, we may suspend and/or terminate your account, cancel any outstanding bets and/or confiscate any or all funds in your account at our absolute discretion if:
* We determine that you are using TrustDice.win in a manner that gives you an unfair advantage, for example making bets on insight or professional knowledge about a sport gained via personal involvement or participation in the particular field of sport or using the late bets strategy;

However this clause would most likely be triggered if you were in discussion with your old pal who is inside the team and paid him to access information that most people don't know about. The same applies if your old pal pays you to bet with his internal info. Unfortunately, crypto sports books like ours attract insider betting these days.

Thank you.
TrustDice Team

You also wrote me the reason for the blocking. So you want to say that I was born in Kaliningrad, Russia, I am 23 years old, and I am a former professional American football player? I played basketball in the NBA? I played in Euroleagues? What nonsense are you talking about? How can such a thing even come to mind? I have scoliosis 3rd degree, and the arm does not bend completely, and I am a professional NBA player? It's just laughter.

[holydarkness]

[...]

I think either
1. He genuinely doesnt know.
2. The reason is too absurd/embarrassing, and hes afraid of the negative feedback.

[...]

To be fair, actually, you are kinda agreed to submit documents for KYC purpose if they ask you for it, written on their TnC.

3.9 We have the right to carry out “KYC” (Know Your Customer) verification procedures and access to your Member Account may be blocked or closed if we determine that you have supplied false or misleading information.

But, as your screenshot of chat suggested that you've suggested this --and still getting blocked-- so... let's move our focus to Coinbox1

Hello holydarkness,

For Coinbox1, I don't think I understand the situation correctly, so please enlighten us. First, was OP's account banned because of the reason he mentioned on the quoted email --the unfair advantage-- or because they're yet to fulfill the KYC TnC?

KYC is needed in this circumstance based on our T&C

[...]
(Note: This is not related to this case in discussion here) Most definitely not. "personal involvement" here typically means
- the player himself or herself and individuals who are connected to the player and therefore have access to the internal info, or even able to influence the outcome of the game;
- personal presence on the field of play during the game;

18.1. Without restricting our ability to rely on other remedies that may be available to us, we may suspend and/or terminate your account, cancel any outstanding bets and/or confiscate any or all funds in your account at our absolute discretion if:
* We determine that you are using TrustDice.win in a manner that gives you an unfair advantage, for example making bets on insight or professional knowledge about a sport gained via personal involvement or participation in the particular field of sport or using the late bets strategy;

However this clause would most likely be triggered if you were in discussion with your old pal who is inside the team and paid him to access information that most people don't know about. The same applies if your old pal pays you to bet with his internal info. Unfortunately, crypto sports books like ours attract insider betting these days.

Thank you.
TrustDice Team

Thank you for the link, I've actually read and familiarize myself with them before writing my post. And although it is true that by the TnC your user are agreeing on a clause where they have to submit KYC if needed, your explanation did not exactly answered my question. But if I may infer from your seemingly deliberate vague answer, you banned their account because they had suspicious behavior --i.e. insider info-- and thus you feel you need to check their ID? Then why did your team still froze OP's account although they already offered to complete KYC?

And let's take one step backward here on the reason itself, can you provide evidences that became the basis of this suspicion? Have you studied OP's account closely and have solid proof before freezing it or were you just ban-first-ask-later? How do we know that it is not a foul play by your platform, that you didn't just invent the situation and you won't use the same reason for other user(s) in the future?

[Coinbox1]

Hi holydarkness,


We appreciate your questions.

you banned their account because they had suspicious behavior --i.e. insider info

I am afraid there is a major misunderstanding here. As I previously stated:

(Note: This is not related to this case in discussion here)

So when I discussed about insider info above, I was simply answering your question about the T&C clause related to insider info. Such explanation has no direct relevance to the OP's case, or any specific cases. It was just to explain the clause.

Have you studied OP's account closely and have solid proof before freezing it or were you just ban-first-ask-later?

Prior to the ban, our Risk Management team have found substantial abnormalities surrounding the OP's account and other suspicious behaviors. This means we found OP's account had been acting in a manner that's impossible for an ordinary human player and its various signals shall be considered abnormalities for an ordinary human player. And all of such data have been well documented. (edit: longer explanation added to highlight and avoid being overlooked)
However, kindly note that our updated internal policies forbid us from sharing such details in public forums, unless particularly authorized by our management and approved by the player. This is for both privacy and anti-abuse concerns. In fact, for the sake of open and transparent communication with Bitcointalk community, we had shared such details on the forum in the past, which did get us quite some compliments. However such transparency was later exploited by abusers who saw it. As a result, our marketing team has received criticism internally.
We have no problem sharing such details to a 3rd party arbitrator.

How do we know that it is not a foul play by your platform, that you didn't just invent the situation and you won't use the same reason for other user(s) in the future?

As you may have noticed on this forum, plenty of forum members have been using our platform for a long time and have no trouble playing and withdrawing. Some of them are high level users like you, with Legendary or Hero badge. In this regard, I recommend you to post a thread on Gambling sub forum to inquire what most gamblers on this forum have experienced so far.
Truth to be told, we spend much more money doing marketing on this forum than the amount being discussed in this case. As one of the established crypto casinos, and an operator who has been in this market since 2018, we have no reason to arbitrarily ban users just because he or she wins. We have more money to make in maintaining our reputation as a reliable casino and sportsbook.
With regard to "is TrustDice legit", we have prepared a page dedicated to this question. You can also take a look at the chatroom on the right to see for yourself. And TrustDice is also pretty much the best rated crypto casino on TrustPilot.



All in all, we strongly encourage OP to complete KYC procedure as requested, otherwise there is not much we (aka the marketing department) can assist at the moment. We do our best to assist every player, but if a player refuses to assist himself, our hands are tied.


Best,
TrustDice Team

[Poika5]

Prior to the ban, our Risk Management team have found substantial abnormalities surrounding the OP's account and other suspicious behaviors. However, kindly note that our updated internal policies forbid us from sharing such details in public forums, unless particularly authorized by our management and approved by the player. This is for both privacy and anti-abuse concerns. In fact, for the sake of open and transparent communication with Bitcointalk community, we had shared such details on the forum in the past, which did get us quite some compliments. However such transparency was later exploited by abusers who saw it. As a result, our marketing team has received criticism internally.

You still didnt answer the question, why did Trustdice ban me before the KYC?

We have no problem sharing such details to a 3rd party arbitrator.

Good to know, i started a complaint(Askgamblers). Hopefully Trustdice will respect Askgamblers decision/judgement.

We do our best to assist every player, but if a player refuses to assist himself, our hands are tied.

Try and look at this from my perspective, i was unfairly banned & my money was stolen.
Why would i send my personal information to casino/thieves who stole from me?

[holydarkness]

Hi holydarkness,


We appreciate your questions.

you banned their account because they had suspicious behavior --i.e. insider info

I am afraid there is a major misunderstanding here. As I previously stated:

(Note: This is not related to this case in discussion here)

So when I discussed about insider info above, I was simply answering your question about the T&C clause related to insider info. Such explanation has no direct relevance to the OP's case, or any specific cases. It was just to explain the clause.

[...]

Ahh, I see. Yes, I'll openly admit that there is a major misunderstanding from my side. The way your team explained to OP on email suggested that their account is banned due to insider info --why else would you mention this point on email if that is not the reason or related at any degree to their account freezing-- and I take that it's far from it, then? OP's account is not suspected of insider info?

Would you elaborate more on the reason? You can't give evidences due to the backlash you received on previous case, okay, arguably understandable, but certainly a casino --or any business entity-- should inform their user the reason of the banning so their user could defend themselves with proper evidence?

From what we can take from the email, the possible reasons are (1) misconduct, (2) insider info, (3) multi-alt abuse, or (4) a breach in TnC.

I think we can safely cross reason number (2) based on your own statement, and (3) because if OP is multiacc-ing, they'll quite reluctant to do KYC instead of offering them. So, point number (1) which would need you to to explain which misconduct is it because the term is very wide, or point (4) that's even more vague and widely open for misinterpretation.

I'd like to say OP raised a good point, they've offered to willingly perform KYC and you cut their way by freezing their account instead, for no clear reason if I may add. So certainly we can agree that they reserve a good degree of caution upon who they submit their info to. So, maybe all we need right now is for you to give a good gesture and tell us why you banned them in the first place. After all, as you said yourself, you have your reputation to maintain. So I think explaining why they're banned is not only a cheap price to pay for OP to do KYC and you to maintain your reputation, but also your duty on the first place.