We can not discuss if 'ChipMixer is a honeypot or not' outside their own thread?

[DooMAD]

That’s called corruption in the real world. Here they call it decentralization. I call it lazy management.

The needle on your moral compass is influenced pretty heavily by all of that hot air coming out of your mouth, isn't it? 

Misappropriation of forum funds?  Og claims not corruption.
Calling out OgNasty on his bullshit?  Og claims corruption.

Yeah, that makes total sense.   

[The Sceptical Chymist]

The needle on your moral compass is influenced pretty heavily by all of that hot air coming out of your mouth, isn't it? 

Misappropriation of forum funds?  Og claims not corruption.
Calling out OgNasty on his bullshit?  Og claims corruption.

I didn't want to dredge up all of those past allegations against OgNasty--mainly because I never quite looked into their validity--but that's the first thing that came to mind when I saw that he's railing against the supposed immorality of mixers. 

There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to keep your financial business private, and that includes obscuring your coins.  Sure, money laundering can and surely has been perpetrated using mixers, but is there any data showing the relative magnitude of laundering via mixers vs. the traditional way, through fiat-based businesses?  I get the sense that the latter is much, much more of a problem and that people/organizations with huge sums of money to launder aren't doing it through crypto, and if they are, there's probably fewer of them employing mixers, if only because of the enormous trust issue involved.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Sure, money laundering can and surely has been perpetrated using mixers, but is there any data showing the relative magnitude of laundering via mixers vs. the traditional way, through fiat-based businesses?

It's extremely difficult to compare, as both by their nature go undetected. However, there have been lots of instances of large banks caught to launder billions.

But, that's not the point. The main concern is that OgNasty morally supports decentralized mixing but opposes centralized mixing[1]. This stance is simply nonsensical, even for someone with lenient ethical standards. You can't oppose software that helps criminals unless nobody is in charge of its operation. What fucked up morals are these? When using a decentralized, pseudonymous, and potentially anonymous currency, one must come to terms with the fact that criminals exploiting it, much like any regular individual, is an inherent aspect of the system.

[1] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5423124.msg61358824#msg61358824

[OgNasty]

That’s called corruption in the real world. Here they call it decentralization. I call it lazy management.

The needle on your moral compass is influenced pretty heavily by all of that hot air coming out of your mouth, isn't it?  

Misappropriation of forum funds?  Og claims not corruption.
Calling out OgNasty on his bullshit?  Og claims corruption.

Yeah, that makes total sense.  

I never misappropriated forum funds. That’s ridiculous. The blockchain exists for a reason and you can clearly look and see at the public address I held the funds that they were never touched. This is exactly what I’m talking about. People make up stories and then others believe it without doing any research because the corrupt people spouting lies are assumed to be honest. They aren’t. They’re compromised corrupt individuals that would risk taking down this entire forum to promote money laundering here for money. No need to cast lies at me to deflect from their bad behavior.

No surprise that you’re advertising money laundering in your signature… As are others defending their illegal advertising on this thread by taking shots at me. Why deflect? How does that justify YOUR behavior?

[DooMAD]

How does that justify YOUR behavior?

If I had done something wrong I would have to justify my behaviour.  Aside from vague posturing, you haven't stated exactly what it is I should be justifying.  Yes, I have a signature for a mixer, so what?  I believe privacy is a fundamental right and I will support that right wherever I deem it appropriate to do so. 

There's no "story" here.  You pocketed airdrops from coins that did not belong to you.  You're damn lucky theymos didn't particularly care about those assets.  Personally, I'd have had you charged with theft if this were my forum.  So get off your damn high horse and learn to live with the fact that some of us think you're scum.  You brought it upon yourself, so don't cry to us about it.

[OgNasty]

How does that justify YOUR behavior?

If I had done something wrong I would have to justify my behaviour.  Aside from vague posturing, you haven't stated exactly what it is I should be justifying.  Yes, I have a signature for a mixer, so what?  I believe privacy is a fundamental right and I will support that right wherever I deem it appropriate to do so. 

There's no "story" here.  You pocketed airdrops from coins that did not belong to you.  You're damn lucky theymos didn't particularly care about those assets.  Personally, I'd have had you charged with theft if this were my forum.  So get off your damn high horse and learn to live with the fact that some of us think you're scum.  You brought it upon yourself, so don't cry to us about it.

You are promoting money laundering. If the organization you are promoting does any real volume, they will be closed down and their founders arrested. That is what you’re promoting.

As for your accusations, I did nothing wrong. I can use my private keys however I want and I lived up to my end of the treasury agreement perfectly. The person who didn’t was theymos, who went years without paying me and then didn’t compensate me for the forked coins I missed out on while I gave him the forked coins I didn’t have to according to our agreement, but who cares about reality right?

[suchmoon]

As for your accusations, I did nothing wrong. I can use my private keys however I want and I lived up to my end of the treasury agreement perfectly. The person who didn’t was theymos, who went years without paying me and then didn’t compensate me for the forked coins I missed out on while I gave him the forked coins I didn’t have to according to our agreement, but who cares about reality right?

This sounds as if you have grounds for a flag and/or red trust on theymos, but instead you have posted a positive trust rating for him.

So you're either lying or lying.

[ibminer]

I don't think the forum should be too concerned. It wasn't that long ago that Bitcoin itself was being called money laundering. At most, I'd guess the forum could get some formal legal request to ban or remove certain things from the site and/or maybe banning any participants that continue to advertise for a particular service which has been deemed illegal by the country the forum is hosted at, but I wouldn't see the forum itself in any big risk, as theymos would probably comply if it is related to advertising. That said, I'm not a lawyer.

I can use my private keys however I want

So does this mean those minted coins you sell don't really belong to the "fans" that buy them?  

They are "your" keys after all, you did create them.. and you seem to have no regrets using private keys for personal gain simply because you created them.. so, based on your logic here, it may be time to sweep my coin and melt the silver (I'm assuming it is silver..).

[worldofcoins]

I never misappropriated forum funds. That’s ridiculous. The blockchain exists for a reason and you can clearly look and see at the public address I held the funds that they were never touched. This is exactly what I’m talking about. People make up stories and then others believe it without doing any research because the corrupt people spouting lies are assumed to be honest. They aren’t. They’re compromised corrupt individuals that would risk taking down this entire forum to promote money laundering here for money. No need to cast lies at me to deflect from their bad behavior.

No surprise that you’re advertising money laundering in your signature… As are others defending their illegal advertising on this thread by taking shots at me. Why deflect? How does that justify YOUR behavior?

You should consider taking the example of Theymos as to why he only asked staff members to stop promoting mixing services but not the whole forum.

I understand your point here, but theymos simply don't want to take away the rights of individuals as to what they promote.

This forum if goes down due to promoting mixing services, then it will be individuals other than staff members to blame, which again wouldn't matter since the forum will be gone by that time.


All mixing services are evil?:
I guess not. Some strive to deliver what they promise but can't confirm if they are being used to launder the crypto.

In the case of Mixers, there can't be a "White line", If the mixers do that, then it won't be decentralized, and people won't use them obviously for privacy reasons, I can't think of any solutions for it.

[OgNasty]

In the case of Mixers, there can't be a "White line", If the mixers do that, then it won't be decentralized, and people won't use them obviously for privacy reasons, I can't think of any solutions for it.

It isn’t decentralized now. That’s my whole point and what those bashing me by saying I’m not making sense don’t seem to understand because they’re blinded by their own greed. If Bitcoin’s privacy depends on centralized run services that result in their founders being jailed, it has failed in providing privacy. The answer is doing it at the protocol level, which must be done after Bitcoin has already been accepted into the existing financial system like a Trojan horse.

People willing to put a target on Bitcoin, this forum, and their own backs by promoting centralized money laundering services for money aren’t doing some great thing for privacy. Them using everything in their power to silence and discredit those that point this out is a whole other issue. One that a strong leader would address.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Bitcoin isn't dependent solely on centralized mixers, don't generalize like that. We already have wonderful alternatives, Joinmarket, Whirlpool, trading XMR back and forth, and so on. And yes, we also have the option to use a mixer, because sometimes it might fit the need best. If someone wants to run such a business, we should definitely not reject them; it'd be completely against the Bitcoin spirit.

If you don't like mixers, don't use them. Simple as that.

People willing to put a target on Bitcoin, this forum, and their own backs by promoting centralized money laundering services for money aren’t doing some great thing for privacy.

Centralized mixers do put target on Bitcoin, but decentralized solutions which allow money laundering and are not censorable don't. Completely rational.

Have you ever considered that the intense pursuit by federal authorities to shut down mixers might indicate that they indeed offer uncontrollable privacy? Providing privacy in such a manner is classified as a significant boon for privacy.