"Bitcoin is Islamic" -by Economist Bruce Fenton

[NdaMk]

There isn't a need to drag religion into this. Bitcoin just like Fiat can be use the right way and also be misused according to Islamic teachings. With fiat you could lend them with or without interest, same goes to bitcoin lending, the lenders could decide to add in interest it is now left for the lendee to reject the offer if he is on Islamic ruling. The edge bitcoin has over banking sectors is its ability to be controlled by the owner whereas in banking some actions are taken with the owners knowledge. And some of these money in banks are used for businesses that are frowned upon based on teachings of Islam. With bitcoin they have total control of it.

Otherwise bitcoin usage goes same way as the fiat just the investor has the deciding factor.

[uneng]

When things get entangled with religion or politics, it become messy. 

Give me some examples (with religion).

Religions are created by men to emulate concepts, principles and morals of spiritual world. But since they are driven by men, religions just subvert such principles and then we have religious leaders portraying themselves as the masters of universe, who know every secrets and details of God's creation.

They are greedy for money and ambitious for power and popularity. That is why politics and religion are mixed so easily and when this happens, a false Messiah is always raisen by the nation as a savior. That is one example, idolatry.

Within it, every kinds of abuses and absurds practiced by authorities are justified in name of God and in name of a higher noble mission to save the nation from the evil forces. Citizens blind by idolatry just accept it as the only true.


Bitcoin isn't islamic, protestant, catholic, buddhist, atheist, conservative or liberal. It's simply a currency, which can be used for the good or for the bad, depending who is using it and for what. And the most important: bitcoin is for all!

[zasad@]

There isn't a need to drag religion into this. Bitcoin just like Fiat can be use the right way and also be misused according to Islamic teachings. With fiat you could lend them with or without interest, same goes to bitcoin lending, the lenders could decide to add in interest it is now left for the lendee to reject the offer if he is on Islamic ruling. The edge bitcoin has over banking sectors is its ability to be controlled by the owner whereas in banking some actions are taken with the owners knowledge. And some of these money in banks are used for businesses that are frowned upon based on teachings of Islam. With bitcoin they have total control of it.

Otherwise bitcoin usage goes same way as the fiat just the investor has the deciding factor.

The main question has always been what is bitcoin in relation to Sharia law. If it is money, then the owners have certain obligations, for example, paying zakat if you had a certain number of coins during the year. If it's a product, then that's another matter.

[DooMAD]

I get the sense Bruce Fenton just says whatever gets him the most media attention.  Seems to be working for him.  At best, his words are poorly phrased.  If he had simply said something along the lines of "The non-debt-based nature of Bitcoin may appeal to Muslims", that would be reasonable.  But instead, he opted to take that position to its extreme to sound more controversial and therefore clickbait-y.

[tjtonmoy]

I have asked this question to chatGPT and he told me:

It is not for me to say whether or not Bitcoin is Islamic. Different scholars may have different opinions on the matter. In general, though, Islamic financial law has certain principles and guidelines that must be followed, such as the prohibition of riba (usury or interest). It is up to individual Muslims and Islamic scholars to determine whether or not Bitcoin is compliant with these principles and guidelines.

I guess like this big artificial brains over here said, only muslims can decide if bitcoin is islamic.

If the majority of the muslims say, bitcoin is islamic, then bitcoin would become islamic.

Right now I don't think that's the case but in the future, who knows?

I am a Muslim and I don't have a lot of knowledge to this, but from what i know, interest is haram. But you can trade one thing for others.

[According to Surah Al 'Imran, verses 13--132 in the Quran: "O believers, take not doubled and redoubled interest, and fear God so that you may prosper". Receiving or paying interest is deemed to be a major sin in Islam.]

As long as you take the right amount to buy sell BTC, then in Islam it's halal. Future trading is haram, but spot Buy Sell is not haram.
But there's a thing that bugs me.
If it's not a physical currency, and you trade it for something which is physical goods, then that have some issue which I have very little knowledge about.

As you said, it's up to people how they take it.
But for me as long as I can trade BTC in spot buy sell then that's ok for me.
I take future trade as betting and betting in islam is haram. So i try to stay away from that.

I get the sense Bruce Fenton just says whatever gets him the most media attention.  Seems to be working for him.  At best, his words are poorly phrased.  If he had simply said something along the lines of "The non-debt-based nature of Bitcoin may appeal to Muslims", that would be reasonable.  But instead, he opted to take that position to its extreme to sound more controversial and therefore clickbait-y.

Yeah i agree with you here. Every translation of Qur'an in many languages have made it complicated. You need to learn from the one who knows Arabic language .

[Z-tight]

I get the sense Bruce Fenton just says whatever gets him the most media attention.  Seems to be working for him.  At best, his words are poorly phrased.  If he had simply said something along the lines of "The non-debt-based nature of Bitcoin may appeal to Muslims", that would be reasonable.  But instead, he opted to take that position to its extreme to sound more controversial and therefore clickbait-y.

Yeah i agree with you here. Every translation of Qur'an in many languages have made it complicated. You need to learn from the one who knows Arabic language .

Whatever Bruce Fenton said didn't arise from any complication, lack of understanding of Arabic language or failure to interprete the Qur'an correctly, in simpler terms he was just talking about BTC and muslims, and he knew exactly what he wanted to achieve by saying what he said, he knew that putting it in this way will create the most debate, and i guess it has.

[Antonas1]

As far as I know, in the tradition of Islam it is forbidden to lend money.  From this point of view, it is likely that some of the popular financial instruments in the DeFi ecosystem do not follow the Islamic tradition. 

Lending money is allowed, as long as no usury element is involved. Example: if you borrow $1K from me in 2015, then you wanna pay in 2022 you will still only pay $1K no matter what. I'm not allowed to ask for more from you. Because lending money to get some profit from it is usury. In Islam usury is haram (forbidden).

However, Bitcoin is a deflationary virtual currency that does not contain algorithms built into the code that allow you to lend coins at interest.  From this point of view, Bitcoin can probably be approved by representatives of traditional Islam. 

No, interest is usury.

Religions are created by men to emulate concepts, principles and morals of spiritual world. But since they are driven by men, religions just subvert such principles and then we have religious leaders portraying themselves as the masters of universe, who know every secrets and details of God's creation.

They are greedy for money and ambitious for power and popularity. That is why politics and religion are mixed so easily and when this happens, a false Messiah is always raisen by the nation as a savior. That is one example, idolatry.

Within it, every kinds of abuses and absurds practiced by authorities are justified in name of God and in name of a higher noble mission to save the nation from the evil forces. Citizens blind by idolatry just accept it as the only true.

I'm asking for examples, not pseudo-arguments.

[Leviathan.007]

I don't have much information about the religions so I cannot say if something is Islamic or not, mostly the people who give ideas about what is against their religion and what is not against religion will pay attention to and research the thing they are going to judge about it, so far I see none between these people researching and talking about bitcoin because they actually mostly do not have much information and they don't know what exactly is bitcoin completely.

[Myleschetty]

How can this Bruce Fenton guy read the minds of the rulers of the richest "oil monarchies" in the world?

Bruce Fenton is someone who has lived in Dubai, Saudi Arabia, and also spend some time with people who are leaders from the Gulf/Middle East. According to what he said there's an increase of skepticism in fiat currency and when issues like this continue people always look for an alternative I believe we already know the alternative people will run to for safety.

Does he have some insider information? Did he talk with the King of Saudi Arabia or the Emir of Qatar?

It won't be difficult for him to have insider information as Gulf/Middle East

What's the point for some of the richest countries in the world to adopt Bitcoin/crypto? These countries aren't undeveloped and poor like El Salvador or the Central African Republic. They can have as many USD/Euro/British pounds as they want, because they have oil.

We need to understand that it's not all the people that are from this region are super rich and if exchanges like Rain offer crypto trading across the Middle East let's ask ourselves who's their customers.

This seems like another mindless bullish speculation, which isn't backed by any facts and logic. It's just wishful thinking and fantasies.

For now, we can assume it to be mindless speculation but let's wait for the Islamic finance decision.

[Gyfts]

If I am not wrong money isn't prohibited in any religion so bitcoin itself a currency so its Islamic for sure.

While who really cares about religion when it comes to money, when you made billions you will be accepted no matter what religion you belong so as a commoner we need to realise the religions are created by us to progress humans not to keep them under control.

Gambling is haram by any interpretation of the Quran so if someone were to trade Bitcoin for short term profits, it could be considered impermissible. Islamic nations aren't generally susceptible to individual liberties and I don't see that translating to financial liberty either. Bitcoin is only as Islamic as the theocrats in power want it to be because here's nothing in Islamic writings that would even begin to capture Bitcoin's compliance with Islam.

That being said, the Middle East is becoming slightly more westernized so it shouldn't come as a surprise that they're making BTC investments. I just wouldn't make the connection that it's because Bitcoin's Islamic. There is no relation.

[virasog]

"Bitcoin is Islamic "
-Says Economist Bruce Fenton

He recently said these things in a video message.  He also said that Bitcoin is starting to gain acceptance in the Middle East/Gulf region, not just adoption. He claims to see 9-digit BTC investments from the Middle East/Gulf region this year.

I would not relate bitcoin to any religion because bitcoin is a currency, and all currencies are legal in every religion. The only thing that makes a currency illegal is that if you get it by illegal means, doesn't matter if it is fiat / paper currency or bitcoin digital currency.

As far as investment in bitcoin is concerned by the gulf and the middle east is concerned, if it happens believe me it will take bitcoin to a new all time high. The oil producing gulf countries are very rich and if they decide to invest in bitcoin,it will be enormous.

[Mate2237]

Everyone has their own viewpoint on bitcoin, taking bitcoin as as Islamic coin is the Bruce Fenton point of view not for all. And the adoption of bitcoin by the Gulf Region is just a prediction not yet reality.

I don't know why people are trying to link bitcoin to a particular religion. Can Bruce Fenton take his Fiat currency to be a particular religion in his country? Bitcoin is neutrality because nobody knows Satoshi, if Satoshi is anonymity bitcoin is also like that.

[Dunamisx]

I don't think a religious beliefs can go against the adoption of bitcoin since it's a currency acceptable for making payments only in digital form, i cannot say for other cryptocurrencies since some of them present investors with scam and fake realizations, but bitcoin has always served it purpose ever since Satoshi completed his research work on it and launched, bitcoin can also serve as a religion means of giving offerings, charity or any philanthropic givings inbythe name of a religion.

[Rengga Jati]

"Bitcoin is Islamic "
-Says Economist Bruce Fenton

He recently said these things in a video message.  He also said that Bitcoin is starting to gain acceptance in the Middle East/Gulf region, not just adoption. He claims to see 9-digit BTC investments from the Middle East/Gulf region this year.

Does he know it exactlyso that he can say that Bitcoin is Islamic?
Perhaps this will also depend on the views of each scholar and his institution. Because in my place, Bitcoin is actually considered haram even though this is not related to usury. Because, Bitcoin is considered to have no underlying physical form, so there is no guarantee for investors who own Bitcoin. What's more, Bitcoin is considered gharar and dharar.

But once again, maybe each country has a different view and different acceptance regarding this. So that this will have an influence on whether Bitcoin is legalized or allowed or not.

[Findingnemo]

If I am not wrong money isn't prohibited in any religion so bitcoin itself a currency so its Islamic for sure.

While who really cares about religion when it comes to money, when you made billions you will be accepted no matter what religion you belong so as a commoner we need to realise the religions are created by us to progress humans not to keep them under control.

Gambling is haram by any interpretation of the Quran so if someone were to trade Bitcoin for short term profits, it could be considered impermissible. Islamic nations aren't generally susceptible to individual liberties and I don't see that translating to financial liberty either. Bitcoin is only as Islamic as the theocrats in power want it to be because here's nothing in Islamic writings that would even begin to capture Bitcoin's compliance with Islam.

That being said, the Middle East is becoming slightly more westernized so it shouldn't come as a surprise that they're making BTC investments. I just wouldn't make the connection that it's because Bitcoin's Islamic. There is no relation.

Gambling is haram but trading isn't so how can we say that trading bitcoin for short term is impermissible?

Either short term or long term as long as its used as medium of transfer the bitcoin isn't against the sharia law.

Middle east becoming modern but not entirely still equal rights for women is not practiced in some of middle east countries but they see the growth of BTC for decade and atleast now they decided to jump in or they will miss the train.

[Reid]

It's Islamic, it's Christian, it's Buddhists, and so on. Bitcoin is for everyone. They can claim it is for them and yet they cannot literally claim it.
I think the only point of what he said is to pull more investors in the Islamic regions all over the world. It's not a bad idea or a bad strategy, maybe it will be successful but who knows.
Although, it will be better if they will be fed by correct information about Bitcoin and not about the religion only.

[Blawpaw]

Looks like some Arab countries are going big on cryptos, hence bruce Fenton saying "Bitcoin is Islamic" Taking into account that many Arab countries are of the most wealthy countries in the world so they can buy big with a lot of sheiks holding a large percentage of the total number of Bitcoins.

We could think that it would be a country like Qatar or perhaps Dubai where the larger number of Bitcon holders may be, but according to an article study done by Unlock media, Morocco is the Arab country that has bought more into Bitcoin.

[ruhanhasley]

I don't know it clearly is bitcoin islamic or not? I just heard that future trading is not islamic.

Islamic ideas needs to be implemented by muslim ummah. If a non learned muslim or non muslim says anything then it will be likely to jokes. We don't wanna hear it from a non muslim or illiterate muslim. If bitcoin is legit in islam then we can know it from an Islamic Icon.

[Anguwa]

Everyone has their own viewpoint on bitcoin, taking bitcoin as as Islamic coin is the Bruce Fenton point of view not for all. And the adoption of bitcoin by the Gulf Region is just a prediction not yet reality.

I don't know why people are trying to link bitcoin to a particular religion. Can Bruce Fenton take his Fiat currency to be a particular religion in his country? Bitcoin is neutrality because nobody knows Satoshi, if Satoshi is anonymity bitcoin is also like that.

It simply refers to its legalization in an Islamic manner.
Some people refer to Bitcoin as being similar to gambling because some people are reasoning it as a ponzy scheme and some people without good knowledge are taking it as gambling which is why they take it as some religious leaders are making things clear. Islam has a big restriction over gambling because it was totally prohibited for every Muslim to gamble.

[pooya87]

"Bitcoin is Islamic "
-Says Economist Bruce Fenton

In other words an attention seeking idiot made some statements and the attention seeking media published it. Otherwise he has no idea what he is talking about and is just making random statements which is not entirely wrong nor right.

Bitcoin is a currency and what you do with that currency makes it Islamic or not-Islamic (or better said halal or haram). It's just that simple!