Have Satoshi dream failed?

[Lucius]

~snip~
Satoshi Nakamoto created Bitcoin as the perfect P2P digital money but today people are forced to pay tax on their holdings. Haven't this make the whole anonymous and freedom dream of Nakamoto failed?

In some countries, you do not have to pay tax when you sell Bitcoin for fiat (several countries in the EU) if you meet the condition that the sale is made 1 or 2 years after the investment. It sounds too good to be true, but for now, some are luckier than others.

I think that even Satoshi was aware that the authorities will not just give up their share of the pie in a world where everything and everyone is taxed. Likewise, this anonymity is not something you should take for granted, because if the blockchain is public, what kind of anonymity are we talking about at a time when spy techniques are so powerful that they can detect almost anything they want?

I wouldn't say that Satoshi's dream failed, on the contrary, it came true and more than what he could have dreamed of. Little by little, Bitcoin is becoming a part of society in one way or another, and things that were unimaginable in the years after Bitcoin came to life are now quite normal.

[so98nn]

We are surely at the stage where presence of authorities has increased a lot with the time. I find it intriguing because they were not that much involved when bitcoin was really new and it was considered to be a bubble and nothing more. As spons as market gone crazy so as to governments fabled by the universe of bitcoin.

However, you can not deny the fact that if we are living in this world then it’s not up to the bitcoin (p2p services) to have transfer methodology. Bitcoin is just an alternative to traditional system with vision that everyone can have free will of transfer, pseudonymous and without any limits.

We still follow we still vote and we will keep doing that. It doesn’t mean bitcoin failed or Satoshi’ vision failed. It’s just part of it with complex stage.

[Gyfts]

Hasn't tax existed long before even bitcoin existed?
I think something new requires a process and in this case it doesn't mean that with bitcoin the tax will disappear immediately because in this case the bitcoin policy is still hampered.
On the other hand, currently there are several countries that actually have very low taxes or maybe even completely free, but that doesn't mean that all countries have to follow it directly because in this case it takes time, of course, especially for some small countries, taxes are always one of the budgets. which has indeed been converted into infrastructure to maintain and develop the country.

Precisely, I don't know what OP is on about.

Ditch fiat currencies entirely and your crypto is still going to be taxed by the jurisdiction you live in. If you don't agree to taxation, then leave the jurisdiction. I'm not one of those "taxation is theft" type of people and I couldn't imagine in a world that's only cryptocurrency that taxation magically disappears leaving the state to generate zero revenue.

Crypto gives you the freedom from unlawful or unnecessary government control with your finances. There isn't anything unlawful about taxes.

[serjent05]

If you live in tax free country, your question aren't relevant.

But let's say if you're live in a country where Bitcoin get taxed, you're actually have a "choice" to not pay tax. But there's a way to pay your Bitcoin tax without write the source is come from Bitcoin, you can write it's from your freelance or extra job. So you don't need to think you're a criminal or bad person since you're not paying tax. Actually Satoshi never say if we pay tax from Bitcoin profit, it will ruin his purpose. Bitcoin is created as pseudonymous, not anonymous.

And Bitcoin is created for borderless electronic transfers without the need for financial institutions to process it and not to evade taxes.  Is there any line on the whitepaper that stated we should avoid paying taxes?  I haven't read any unless I missed that line. Pseudo-anonymity is just a feature that goes with Bitcoin transactions but I think the main vision is to remove the third-party institution in every electronic cash transfer and have a cheaper fee for doing international bitcoin transfers..

[AmoreJaz]

If you live in tax free country, your question aren't relevant.

But let's say if you're live in a country where Bitcoin get taxed, you're actually have a "choice" to not pay tax. But there's a way to pay your Bitcoin tax without write the source is come from Bitcoin, you can write it's from your freelance or extra job. So you don't need to think you're a criminal or bad person since you're not paying tax. Actually Satoshi never say if we pay tax from Bitcoin profit, it will ruin his purpose. Bitcoin is created as pseudonymous, not anonymous.

And Bitcoin is created for borderless electronic transfers without the need for financial institutions to process it and not to evade taxes.  Is there any line on the whitepaper that stated we should avoid paying taxes?  I haven't read any unless I missed that line. Pseudo-anonymity is just a feature that goes with Bitcoin transactions but I think the main vision is to remove the third-party institution in every electronic cash transfer and have a cheaper fee for doing international bitcoin transfers..

and that we are enjoying right now. for me, there's no failure on this creation. actually, i am thinking that satoshi was not thinking that the scope of his creation will go this big, having a multi-billion dollar market and basis of most crypto projects. the borderless transaction is just only one great contribution of btc. just compare the fees and the duration if you transfer large amount of money to the other side of the world. it would take only few minutes depending on your tx fees used to transfer btc to another wallet.

[apleio]

Satoshi's dream is still alive and It is fighting with the imposition of CBDC for compulsory use by all and the abolition of cash. It is the only way to escape the current financial system and central banks that is why they want to control Bitcoin price and with attempts to ban it.

[Fara Chan]

Satoshi's dream is still alive and It is fighting with the imposition of CBDC for compulsory use by all and the abolition of cash. It is the only way to escape the current financial system and central banks that is why they want to control Bitcoin price and with attempts to ban it.

Not like this is Satoshi Nakamoto's dream in creating bitcoin, there is no concept of Bitcoin development that was carried out by Satoshi to eliminate the function of fiat currency, I have almost never encountered this concept in the current journey of bitcoin.

Because the realm of taxation is the jurisdiction of various countries, although there are certain countries that are free from the use of taxes or smaller in number. If you consider Satoshi's dream to be a failure, then at this point we will never see bitcoin again, the tax has no direct relationship with the bitcoin link as stated by the OP. While it is true that as a rule trying to control bitcoin by trying to ban it, that also does not stop bitcoin, because the freedom that people expect is within the realm of the Bitcoin concept.

[Yatsan]

Satoshi's dream is still alive and It is fighting with the imposition of CBDC for compulsory use by all and the abolition of cash. It is the only way to escape the current financial system and central banks that is why they want to control Bitcoin price and with attempts to ban it.

Not like this is Satoshi Nakamoto's dream in creating bitcoin, there is no concept of Bitcoin development that was carried out by Satoshi to eliminate the function of fiat currency, I have almost never encountered this concept in the current journey of bitcoin.

Because the realm of taxation is the jurisdiction of various countries, although there are certain countries that are free from the use of taxes or smaller in number. If you consider Satoshi's dream to be a failure, then at this point we will never see bitcoin again, the tax has no direct relationship with the bitcoin link as stated by the OP. While it is true that as a rule trying to control bitcoin by trying to ban it, that also does not stop bitcoin, because the freedom that people expect is within the realm of the Bitcoin concept.

Well said. Also, taxations would only be done through third party wallets or banks such that if you would put an amount questionnable (have experienced that one) but there's no way they could trace all of your assets given that this industry is decentralized. Regarding satoshi's dream, who mentioned it given that we don't even know who he really is? These are just mere assumptions by most of us since this industry speaks for currency, then it is not surprising that people like us are assuming that the goal of this technology is to 'surpass' fiat currency. Unfortunately, things win't work that way. So for the meantime, we should atleast make use of this technology by means of investment.

[Hamphser]

Satoshi's dream is still alive and It is fighting with the imposition of CBDC for compulsory use by all and the abolition of cash. It is the only way to escape the current financial system and central banks that is why they want to control Bitcoin price and with attempts to ban it.

Not like this is Satoshi Nakamoto's dream in creating bitcoin, there is no concept of Bitcoin development that was carried out by Satoshi to eliminate the function of fiat currency, I have almost never encountered this concept in the current journey of bitcoin.

Because the realm of taxation is the jurisdiction of various countries, although there are certain countries that are free from the use of taxes or smaller in number. If you consider Satoshi's dream to be a failure, then at this point we will never see bitcoin again, the tax has no direct relationship with the bitcoin link as stated by the OP. While it is true that as a rule trying to control bitcoin by trying to ban it, that also does not stop bitcoin, because the freedom that people expect is within the realm of the Bitcoin concept.

Well said. Also, taxations would only be done through third party wallets or banks such that if you would put an amount questionnable (have experienced that one) but there's no way they could trace all of your assets given that this industry is decentralized. Regarding satoshi's dream, who mentioned it given that we don't even know who he really is? These are just mere assumptions by most of us since this industry speaks for currency, then it is not surprising that people like us are assuming that the goal of this technology is to 'surpass' fiat currency. Unfortunately, things win't work that way. So for the meantime, we should atleast make use of this technology by means of investment.

If we do simply tend to look at on the white paper of Bitcoin then it is really intended nor being created to be freed and able to avoid that 3rd party transactions which we've seen that it did really successfully

been recognized by the community or simply by the world.Recognition level might not really be still on the state where it is really that on huge scale but we are still existing on decades time
which means that there's still lots of rooms for this thing to go over or even been known.As long Bitcoin still have that demand then its not considered to be a failure of Satoshi.
Its true that we dont even know on who he is, whether he's an individual or a group of people.One things for sure that it did really give out that revolutionary thing that
gives us that freedom from full centralization and this is why it is really getting that soo much attention and demand.

[romero121]

The core behind the innovation is taking away the intermediary, with which it is possible to make the network decentralised and give the best privacy to the users. When people move through the centralised platforms, it isn't the mistake out of his innovation making his dream go away from the reality. It is the lack of awareness on using decentralised platforms.

Usage of non custodial wallets serves to be the best with which one can understand how perfect the innovation works as Satoshi have dreamt. People always look for the ease of access which at times land them on centralized platforms.

[Smartvirus]

Satoshi Nakamoto created Bitcoin as the perfect P2P digital money but today people are forced to pay tax on their holdings. Haven't this make the whole anonymous and freedom dream of Nakamoto failed?

I don't see where all that doenst mean taxes. Perhaps its someone to stay private and conduct your financial transactions but, not every step of the way is private. We've got centralized exchanges that ensures kyc, sportsbookies and casinos that still demands kyc. Although these operates based on wallets and addresses which are not tied to a persons, banks have been able to trace certain accounts involved with crypto transactions, mainly whe you get to make the exchange (Buy, Sell, fund). The idea of crypto and not paying of taxes doent seat well with me. Taxes are one way in which modern civilization is built and that's okay.
Bitcoin or cryptocurrency provides an escape from being completely under a centralized system and so way to make quick and private transactions.

[Lubang Bawah]

Satoshi's dream is still alive and It is fighting with the imposition of CBDC for compulsory use by all and the abolition of cash. It is the only way to escape the current financial system and central banks that is why they want to control Bitcoin price and with attempts to ban it.

Dream of Satoshi when making bitcoin is simple that is only planning to make bitcoin for fast and cheap transactions, I'm sure he never thinks that bitcoin the price can touch $ 69k, especially since most bitcoin is currently used for speculation so that it makes many people rich in a short time .

[Fara Chan]

Well said. Also, taxations would only be done through third party wallets or banks such that if you would put an amount questionnable (have experienced that one) but there's no way they could trace all of your assets given that this industry is decentralized. Regarding satoshi's dream, who mentioned it given that we don't even know who he really is? These are just mere assumptions by most of us since this industry speaks for currency, then it is not surprising that people like us are assuming that the goal of this technology is to 'surpass' fiat currency. Unfortunately, things win't work that way. So for the meantime, we should atleast make use of this technology by means of investment.

Do you mean that taxes only apply if you make transactions in large amounts, because I see small transactions are also taxed, and even then direct deductions from the bank, whether as administrative fees or taxes, I don't know.

In some countries bitcoin is still used as an investment, has not been used as a transaction tool to purchase goods or services, which means that bitcoin still has to be exchanged for fiat currency when used to make purchases. As you said, we don't even know who he or the small group that called himself before creating bitcoin as a decentralized digital currency, that's why the mystery of bitcoin hasn't been completely solved until now.

[fullhdpixel]

Satoshi's dream is still alive and It is fighting with the imposition of CBDC for compulsory use by all and the abolition of cash. It is the only way to escape the current financial system and central banks that is why they want to control Bitcoin price and with attempts to ban it.

CBDC's are already there but no they are not for compulsory use. Physical versions of fiats are still there and won't vanished because not all people are into digitalization. However, there are countries where cryptocurrencies are banned so people there do only have limited choices when it comes to digital payment methods and they may consider these CBDC's.

There is no way for the government or the banks to control the BTC price. Remember they are allergic with it and if they buy loads of it then it will be awkward. It is so contradicting. No one can control BTC price even its founder, which is why BTC is termed to be the most decentralized crypto.

[Lubang Bawah]

The core behind the innovation is taking away the intermediary, with which it is possible to make the network decentralised and give the best privacy to the users. When people move through the centralised platforms, it isn't the mistake out of his innovation making his dream go away from the reality. It is the lack of awareness on using decentralised platforms.

Usage of non custodial wallets serves to be the best with which one can understand how perfect the innovation works as Satoshi have dreamt. People always look for the ease of access which at times land them on centralized platforms.

Ease is the most important thing from technology, now people will not want to learn traditional programming languages such as Java, Visual Basic or others, the presence of Bitcoin Wallets that are easy and safe to use is the most important thing that makes Bitcoin very popular, and of course this makes users continue to grow so it is increasingly popular.

[Ani1985]

I'm sure if Satoshi is still alive then he will be surprised by Bitcoin at this time, many users have made people make Bitcoin the main job, but the other side is the number of people and even millionaires who keep Bitcoin in the hope of getting a big profit someday.

[Sterbens]

The core behind the innovation is taking away the intermediary, with which it is possible to make the network decentralised and give the best privacy to the users. When people move through the centralised platforms, it isn't the mistake out of his innovation making his dream go away from the reality. It is the lack of awareness on using decentralised platforms.

Usage of non custodial wallets serves to be the best with which one can understand how perfect the innovation works as Satoshi have dreamt. People always look for the ease of access which at times land them on centralized platforms.

Ease is the most important thing from technology, now people will not want to learn traditional programming languages such as Java, Visual Basic or others, the presence of Bitcoin Wallets that are easy and safe to use is the most important thing that makes Bitcoin very popular, and of course this makes users continue to grow so it is increasingly popular.

The thing that I really like about bitcoin is the easy process, of course it is the main attraction for its users, especially when the control is in their full hands. This is what makes bitcoin different from the others.
It is very clear that Satoshi's mission is to free the payment system from central control or intermediaries. There may now be a change of track from what it should be, but it will surely always happen as it develops and there are more and more bitcoin enthusiasts.

[mathenye]

Satoshi, of course, didn't think that the development of bitcoin was like it is today, the market cap was very large and made many people rich people, bitcoin became the pioneer of many other projects so that it made job opportunities even better, another opportunity is to provide opportunities for anyone to profit by investing or daily trading.

Satoshi Nakamoto's ideal will not fail, he is a person who respects natural evolution, and everything that is happening now is already within the scope of Satoshi Nakamoto's planning. He is not surprised. The future of Bitcoin is the future of algorithms, the evolution of mathematics, the innovation of technology, and the revolution of culture. So with such a strong normal, his dream will lead us to achieve it.

[Emitdama]

Satoshi didn't imagine a world where we pay no taxes at all, he imagined a world where our money wouldn't go up and down because of bad moves by the government.

Fortunately or unfortunately the decentralization didn't prevented that yet, but it did helped a lot compared to fiat. Like look at USA, they printed literally 4 trillion dollars in the past five or so years, isn't that proof that bitcoin actually did good?

We are about to trade around $20k level right now, for many months we failed to see that, and for many months after we see it, we failed to recover that, and now we are seeing it as a bear run price, we dreamed of reaching 20k, now we think it's a bad price to be in. That's success.

[MarjorieZimmermanGinger]

If truly we are all here to share crypto experiences then this is another one, I could be the one lacking the knowledge but I believe creating this topic will open my eye to better understanding.

You are quite right in this discussion room, because here has far more complete features compared to other online media, but we also have to be selective in choosing and considering existing information, so that we get complete, correct information and have reference sources.
Personally, I have learned a lot about Bitcoin in this forum, so I know more about technical stuff directly related to Bitcoin and started investing in Bitcoin in the last year.

Satoshi Nakamoto created Bitcoin as the perfect P2P digital money but today people are forced to pay tax on their holdings. Haven't this make the whole anonymous and freedom dream of Nakamoto failed?

Satoshi Nakamoto cannot limit taxes on Bitcoin travel, because this is a legal domain where tax issues can never be eliminated in a government. The regulations of a country differ in the determination of taxes, so there are varying amounts that are set.

What I know is that taxes are taken not directly from Bitcoin, but from exchanges, wallets and others. Taxes will apply, if there is a transaction against Bitcoin that is converted into fiat currency. Thus the nature of Bitcoin remains anonymous and Satoshi Nakamoto has never failed in developing Bitcoin.