Bitcoiners kill Bitcoin, and governments are happy, boycott the CEXs

[darkangel11]

There's that proof of keys day that should honestly be much bigger than it is, especially that there's a big exchange collapse almost every single year.

I'm not for boycotting CEXs because they offer a decent bridge between the banking system and cryptocurrencies, but people are using them the wrong way. They should always be used for fast transactions and nothing else. They're not banks, they're not your portfolio managers. They want to be because if you're dumb enough to hold money with them they'll make more money by loaning out your crypto, which is why they all offer those nice APIs where you see the total worth of your portfolio in real time, where you can stake, where you get new shitcoins for free... This is all there to make you stay. Don't fall for it!

[The Cryptovator]

We're out of options here. We all despise Bitcoin, but we must use it for various reasons. We can't ignore CEX's contribution to Bitcoin adaptation, but on the other hand, CEX has been destroying Bitcoin recently. I understand that Bitcoin is not on the way Satoshi created it. People are currently gambling with Bitcoin in order to make money. We're not just using Bitcoin to conduct borderless transactions with no third parties. We are also taking advantage of the volatility. Recently, there have been a few rumors about Binance as well. If this happens again, the crypto industry will collapse dramatically. So, at the very least, we should avoid putting money into CEX after bought coins.

[AverageGlabella]

We're out of options here. We all despise Bitcoin, but we must use it for various reasons. We can't ignore CEX's contribution to Bitcoin adaptation, but on the other hand, CEX has been destroying Bitcoin recently. I understand that Bitcoin is not on the way Satoshi created it. People are currently gambling with Bitcoin in order to make money. We're not just using Bitcoin to conduct borderless transactions with no third parties. We are also taking advantage of the volatility. Recently, there have been a few rumors about Binance as well. If this happens again, the crypto industry will collapse dramatically. So, at the very least, we should avoid putting money into CEX after bought coins.

Are we going against what Satoshi created Bitcoin for? afaik he made it to compete against banks and might have not seen it as a global currency that we are all hoping for. Bitcoin might have already achieved the goals that satoshi wanted and that is why they left when they did. Taking advantage of the volatility is not a bad thing bitcoin was designed with volatility in mind and allows normal people to escape poverty which I think is a good thing.

[Betwrong]

We're out of options here. We all despise Bitcoin, but we must use it for various reasons. We can't ignore CEX's contribution to Bitcoin adaptation, but on the other hand, CEX has been destroying Bitcoin recently. I understand that Bitcoin is not on the way Satoshi created it. People are currently gambling with Bitcoin in order to make money. We're not just using Bitcoin to conduct borderless transactions with no third parties. We are also taking advantage of the volatility. Recently, there have been a few rumors about Binance as well. If this happens again, the crypto industry will collapse dramatically. So, at the very least, we should avoid putting money into CEX after bought coins.

Are we going against what Satoshi created Bitcoin for? afaik he made it to compete against banks and might have not seen it as a global currency that we are all hoping for. Bitcoin might have already achieved the goals that satoshi wanted and that is why they left when they did. Taking advantage of the volatility is not a bad thing bitcoin was designed with volatility in mind and allows normal people to escape poverty which I think is a good thing.

My first reaction was, let's boycott CEXs, but after reading this thread I started thinking, maybe CEXs are not that bad after all? I mean, are they really same as banks? Banks are controlled by the government, even private ones to some extent. And you basically have no option but to keep your money in a bank. CEXs, on the other hand, can be avoided, you can use them only when you want to.

[LDL]

Some of the world's ongoing events such as the FTX scandal, the war between Russia and Ukraine have led to a downturn in the Bitcoin market, making Bitcoin haters happy.  Many governments around the world are not directly opposed to Bitcoin, but their central banks and fiat systems are directly opposed to Bitcoin.  One of the main reasons for this is that Bitcoin is a decentralized system where no central bank or government system can control the Bitcoin section.  Moreover, Bitcoin requires significant changes in the internal interest rate and capital system of their banks, which causes substantial financial losses for central banks.  Moreover, another reason for the government's hatred of Bitcoin is the independent mechanism.  Bitcoin is independent without government.  One of the main principles of government is the regulatory system that Bitcoin cannot demonstrate within.

[Flexystar]

This is nicely written, but hardest to follow by the current community. Forget about the people who started with bitcoin from the start and also in the mid decade because they know the real use case of bitcoin and they wont be changing anything with the time. What is fearful is, the Gen Z who is all set to only make the profits out of the bitcoin and thus make it ready for its own collapse. Bitcoin's true value is in the circulation and in the peer to peer approach rather than investing into it and using it as trading instrument. If they are going to use that way then there would be hard waves coming in the near future. Neither the tech is getting developed nor the proper infra to use to on the scale of hundred percent.

[Pmalek]

<Snip>

Unfortunately, the speed of the transactions and interactions are the things people care about. Get the coins or be under the impression that you have them (because you don't until the point they are moved from the CEX to your own personal non-custodial wallet) as soon as possible. That's why we see threads pop up all the time on Bitcointalk where people are saying, I was supposed to receive BTC 2 hours ago, but the transaction is not confirmed yet. What should I do? Will I lose my money? Please help me it's urgent.   

There is one point where DEXs are really inconvenient or less convenient than CEXs if you want. And that is being online if you want your offer to be accepted or remain visible in the orderbook. With a CEX, you place a buy/sell order, turn off your device, and continue with your life. You can't do that on Bisq. If a buyer wants to purchase your coins, you need to be online for the multisig transactions to be made. And each transaction requires on-chain network confirmations. All of that takes much more time than clicking the buy/sell button on a CEX. Since people are impatient and/or lazy, many don't want that.

I mean, are they really same as banks?

CEXs are much worse than banks in normal civilized countries.

[o_e_l_e_o]

There's that proof of keys day that should honestly be much bigger than it is, especially that there's a big exchange collapse almost every single year.

The proof of keys days achieves nothing, unfortunately. Only a minority of people take part it in, which does not prove exchanges are solvent at all. Even if you somehow managed to convince a majority of people to take part in it, then the exchanges could simply take out a loan or recall some outstanding investments to cover the withdrawals for a single day, then go right back to their fractional reserve scam the day after.

I mean, are they really same as banks? Banks are controlled by the government, even private ones to some extent.

Centralized exchanges do what the government tells them, report all your activities to your government, freeze accounts and censor transactions they don't like, are fractional reserve, risk your money to make profits for themselves, and general keep your under their control. That's pretty much a bank in my book.

With a CEX, you place a buy/sell order, turn off your device, and continue with your life. You can't do that on Bisq. If a buyer wants to purchase your coins, you need to be online for the multisig transactions to be made. And each transaction requires on-chain network confirmations. All of that takes much more time than clicking the buy/sell button on a CEX.

Fair point, but I would point out that as you correctly note, until you have also gone through the on-chain network confirmations to withdraw coins from the CEX to your own wallet, your trade is almost meaningless and you own nothing.

[kryptqnick]

I don't use centralized exchanges (haven't used them for a few years, at least not those where you store money on an exchange and have a profile), but to me, this topic doesn't have to be so polarized. I don't blame people who do use centralized exchanges because it is convenient to them, especially if people do trading. I also understand that some people will use centralized platforms to store their funds despite the risk of something like FTX because privacy and being your own financial manager just isn't appealing for everyone, and some feel safer with a trusted company than with their own devices, being afraid more of losing the seed than of an exchange performing a scam or being hacked. I believe we should be welcoming to people who make different decisions, as long as these people realize the risks and try making informed decisions that work for them.

[Pmalek]

Fair point, but I would point that as you correctly note, until you have also gone through the on-chain network confirmations to withdraw coins from the CEX to your own wallet, your trade is almost meaningless and you own nothing.

That's true. Still, it's going to take years and decades before people learn that the digits they see on accounts with their names next to the account numbers isn't theirs. They aren't the custodians, and they have agreed to terms and conditions that are against their best interests. I think that when we get to a point where there is a close to equal number of those who know the difference between self-custody compared to the ones that believe centralized accounts mean ownership, we have come a long way. And when I say "we", I mean all humans, not bitcoin enthusiasts.

[Synchronice]

Fair point, but I would point that as you correctly note, until you have also gone through the on-chain network confirmations to withdraw coins from the CEX to your own wallet, your trade is almost meaningless and you own nothing.

That's true. Still, it's going to take years and decades before people learn that the digits they see on accounts with their names next to the account numbers isn't theirs. They aren't the custodians, and they have agreed to terms and conditions that are against their best interests. I think that when we get to a point where there is a close to equal number of those who know the difference between self-custody compared to the ones that believe centralized accounts mean ownership, we have come a long way. And when I say "we", I mean all humans, not bitcoin enthusiasts.

As time passes by, the more problems are solved in our daily life and easier, more comfortable it's becoming. What's more popular among people, to watch movie or to read the book? To watch movie, because the scene is in front of your eyes, it's just easier product that book that's written. In first case you watch frames, and in case of book, you read alphabets and you have to turn on your imagination, 2x process and still the first one seems more easy, satisfying for the majority of people despite the fact that there is a huge difference between movie and book and the fact that in first case they see someone's perception while book gives them possibility to see the whole scenario from your own perception.

I don't know why you guys think that people want more decentralization and more security. Yeah, probably they'll say that they want but never forget that everyone wants to be rich while 99.9% don't want to do what it requires to be rich too. So, people may want privacy as some may say (I genuinely believe that half of population doesn't really care too much) but at the same time they don't want to go through all the processes that it requires. It's much easier to open the online wallet and trade or click on send/receive button.
Easy solutions, even riskier, will always succeed more than the harder one.

[o_e_l_e_o]

being afraid more of losing the seed than of an exchange performing a scam or being hacked.

In my opinion this is a crazy opinion for someone to hold. Everyone on the planet can keep a small object safe. If they couldn't, then we wouldn't have keys to your house, keys to your car, mobile phones, bank cards, cash, passports,  etc. It is something that everyone learns from a young age. Writing down 12 words on a piece of paper and keeping it safe really is no different. To simultaneously believe that you can't keep 12 words safe when you have been keeping various objects safe your whole life, while also thinking a complete stranger will keep your coins safe when we've just seen millions of users of dozens of exchanges lose everything over the past few months, is crazy.

Yeah, probably they'll say that they want but never forget that everyone wants to be rich while 99.9% don't want to do what it requires to be rich too.

It's impossible to become rich when you let a scammer run away with your entire stash which you willing sent to their centralized scam exchange.

[buwaytress]

I don't use centralized exchanges (haven't used them for a few years, at least not those where you store money on an exchange and have a profile), but to me, this topic doesn't have to be so polarized.

Yeah, there's no extreme way to do things for most regular people. Even I still use centralised P2P (Localbitcoins) a lot more than decentralised P2P -- mainly because of escrow and very good dispute settlement, which I would always recommend newcomers to wet their toes in first before trying non-custodials. That's also where I found my personal trusted network of direct P2P so I liquidate and transfer over fiat to myself in literal minutes.

We need to remember that the majority of regular people just want something easy and fuss-free. We're a while away from that without centralised services (not JUST CEXs).

[Casdinyard]

Bitcoin purists are what's killing bitcoin in my opinion. They want bitcoin to stick to its main agenda as if straying away from its supposed directive isn't whay made bitcoin popular. No matter how you hate on what bitcoin is becoming, you cannot hide the fact that as a store-of-value, it had gone to so many feats and achievements, abd has touched and changed the lives of millions of its supporters. I used to hate on how bitcoin is being regarded of back then, considering the fact that Satoshi himself wanted bitcoin to become a seamless transaction machine that could bridge millions of miles in distance with minimal transaction fees, but who's to say he doesn't like this version of bitcoin? Who's to say Satoshi hates that bitcoin is very valuable now?


As in the case with Centralized Exchanges like FTX, you couldn'r really stop them from existing, and apart from FTX and all other failed iterations of CEXs, it has helped millions of people around the world and frankly enough hastened the process of global adoption by a longshot. So to hate and boycott on Centralized exchanges just because one of them has gone bad is a hasty generalization in my opinion.

[Z-tight]

As in the case with Centralized Exchanges like FTX, you couldn'r really stop them from existing, and apart from FTX and all other failed iterations of CEXs, it has helped millions of people around the world and frankly enough hastened the process of global adoption by a longshot. So to hate and boycott on Centralized exchanges just because one of them has gone bad is a hasty generalization in my opinion.

People do not have to lose all of their money in centralized exchanges for BTC to be adopted globally, i don't think you or anybody would be okay with losing money in a collapsed centralized exchange. In my humble opinion, loss of funds actually hasn't or doesn't help anyone, it instead slows down global adoption because it creates fear in people who don't understand that it wasn't the BTC network that collapsed, but a service that is not related to it. When people are scared and don't trust BTC, they do not use it and there can't be global adoption, but if there is less cases of funds completely lost in collapsed exchanges, more people and organizations would want to use the coin which results in global adoption.

Not just one centralized exchange has gone bad, but many of them, from Mt. Gox till ftx and many more would still go bad, but yet i am not advocating for hate or total boycott of centralized exchanges, but for people to use it in the right way if they want to use it, which is for trading and nothing else, if you only trade quickly in centralized exchanges there is a small chance that you will be caught up if it collapses, so you may never lose funds if you do it that way. There are other risks such as privacy, censorship and confiscation, but we can discuss about that later, just move your funds out and don't store them there most importantly.

[Pmalek]

What's more popular among people, to watch movie or to read the book? To watch movie, because the scene is in front of your eyes, it's just easier product that book that's written. In first case you watch frames, and in case of book, you read alphabets and you have to turn on your imagination, 2x process and still the first one seems more easy, satisfying for the majority of people despite the fact that there is a huge difference between movie and book and the fact that in first case they see someone's perception while book gives them possibility to see the whole scenario from your own perception.

A movie can never show you the details like a book can. Books are much more detailed and capable of presenting more than the action on the screen. A good book is much more personal and inspires you to think. Movies present the things as they and how those who made the movies want them to be. Completely different worlds.

I don't know why you guys think that people want more decentralization and more security
...
Easy solutions, even riskier, will always succeed more than the harder one.

Whenever something like the FTX disaster happens, people get scared and make noise. A few decide to make drastic changes, but a much bigger group decides to retreat until the situation calms down a bit, only to resume where they stopped earlier. It's those who make changes that will eventually learn that there are better ways to deal with crypto and bitcoin than they did in the past. And with every incident, that small group grows a little bigger. But it will take a lot of time. 

[o_e_l_e_o]

which I would always recommend newcomers to wet their toes in first before trying non-custodials.

The problem with this approach is that once you have entangled yourself in centralized exchanges, it is significantly harder to untangle yourself than if you never used them in the first place. You have a bunch of coins which are connected to your real identity which you then have to thoroughly mix or coinjoin to break that link, you've already given away your personal information and KYC documents and they remain at risk of being stolen/sold/leaked forever, and it is impossible to delete all the information that exchange has gathered on you and shared with third parties. If you use a proper DEX from the outset, you avoid all of this.

No matter how you hate on what bitcoin is becoming, you cannot hide the fact that as a store-of-value

I have no problem with people using bitcoin as a store of value. Such is the beauty of bitcoin - you can use it in any way you like and no one can stop you from doing so. What I have a problem with is centralized exchanges turning themselves in to banks and losing billions of dollars of money belonging to average people as they gamble deposits for their own profit, all while selling user data to governments and third parties.

[QueenVera]

As in the case with Centralized Exchanges like FTX, you couldn'r really stop them from existing, and apart from FTX and all other failed iterations of CEXs, it has helped millions of people around the world and frankly enough hastened the process of global adoption by a longshot. So to hate and boycott on Centralized exchanges just because one of them has gone bad is a hasty generalization in my opinion.

But it's not just one that have gone bad, many has gone bad over the years even without going mainstream as FTX did. Centralized exchange disappear with customers funds and nothing get done about it. It's now like a normal occurrence in the market.
During the bear market, we expected atleast one exchange to go bankrupt and it's not because of lack of patronage instead due to the bad investment decision of the exchanges. Centralized exchange are causing more harm than good to their customers.
People lose their life savings mainly because the exchange has made them believe their funds are safe with them meanwhile they aren't. Centralized exchange make their customers to lose focus on security and yet the platforms aren't secured. We don't have to defend them, there's no gain in doing so.

[Synchronice]

A movie can never show you the details like a book can. Books are much more detailed and capable of presenting more than the action on the screen. A good book is much more personal and inspires you to think. Movies present the things as they and how those who made the movies want them to be. Completely different worlds.

Yeah, that's what I am saying. It gives you more control on the situation. I mean, you can film the whole scenario in your brain, the whole book that will 10 times exceed with story and everything to two hours movie. Maybe it wasn't a good example  but hope that I made the point clear: People prefer basic control over advanced control because of the readiness and easiness of the product and service that's offered from someone that's commercially motivated.

And with every incident, that small group grows a little bigger. But it will take a lot of time. 

You forgot that people easily forget. That small group may become a little bigger but as time passes by, that bigger group will become smaller and the cycle will continue on until something gamechanger happens and someone sets the standard.

[Pmalek]

You forgot that people easily forget. That small group may become a little bigger but as time passes by, that bigger group will become smaller and the cycle will continue on until something gamechanger happens and someone sets the standard.

Perhaps. That is something that cannot be ruled out. But many more centralized services will go bankrupt in the future. We will continue to see and read about hacks, exit scams, and data leaks. We will listen to complaints about frozen accounts, confiscated balances, and stricter verification requirements. I think those negative experiences will keep increasing that small group despite people's custom to forget and forgive the harm done to them.