The fight over electric car batteries

[coolcoinz]

The real problems of lithium batteries in cars have not been addressed here.
Here's my list
1.  Expensive compared to just about every other car.

It depends a lot on the model, for the mini-cars definitely, if you go for the middle segment starts to dwindle as a Peugeot 2008 is 37k vs 26k, but for others like the luxury or large SUV the differences in percentage becomes rather insignificant or it becomes cheaper, the standard electric Q8 e-ton is 2000 euros lower than the gasoline basic.

Most people don't spend 100k EUR on a car. 99% of users will want something cheaper, and cheap doesn't go with electric. For instance, one of the most popular cars in Europe VW Golf starts at 30k EUR, but it's electric crossover version, the ID.4 starts at 46k.

To give you a perspective, you're spending so much money to upgrade your Golf to silent running, that for the same money you could get a new Arteon, their most luxurious model, but with a traditional engine.
Is it worth going electric? Not yet, not at these prices.

Even without new policies or regulations, electric vehicle sales will account for half of private passenger car sales globally in 2035.
The electrification of personal transportation vehicles is accelerating in ways that even the most ardent proponents of the trend could not have dreamed of just a few years ago. In many countries, governors intended to accelerate this change. And I think the US government has taken proactive measures in this regard.
This is not limited to the US government or just because of the high demand. In addition to technical problems, there is a strategic war against other countries that monopolize these industries. American and European start-up companies specialized in developing new batteries for electric cars are engaged in a fierce war using two abundant and cheap materials, sodium and sulfur, which may help them limit China's dominance in this market and mitigate an expected crisis in the near future.

These are their predictions.

Remember how similar people were saying that Bitcoin would die and go to 0 back in 2013? The same people were predicting the Internet would never be big and people wouldn't need to have computers at home.

I'm far from believing them and these predictions about 50% new cars sold being electric cars are made only because most companies claim they will stop producing combustion engines by 2040 so you won't be able to buy a new car that burns fuel anymore.

People don't want this to happen though because in simplest terms electric cars suck.
Have you heard of those new Mercedes cars? Their new hybrid 63S doesn't allow you to start in electric mode, you first have to start the combustion engine and then switch to electric and its battery allows you to drive for less than 10km before you run out of power. It's a joke. Then they made fully electric cars where you have to pay a subscription to unlock full power. Without paying thousands of dollars each month you don't have access to the whole package. Is this what the electric progress brings us? Is that the future of the industry? If yes then it sucks for us - slaves.

[1714242261]

1714242261

[Leviathan.007]

I don't think there's a lack of lithium, it's an element that's damaging to the environment to extract iirc and it's quite hard to extract too. Given the circumstances export bans aren't that unreasonable, I think there'll be a better battery that comes out that can be mass produced better than lithium can (and I think that's the hope as some cars are said to have to travel 250,000 miles to have the same emissions of an electric car battery, but once the lithium is extracted and made into a battery, it can likely be well recycled - with renewables too).

I think there should be a crackdown on countries using third countries to avoid taxes too to send from one to another (I think this is done a lot with electronics and pharmaceuticals at least).

I'm not sure it's a good comparison right now we have tight over fossil energy because most devices and vehicles are using fossil energy while we all know in the future most of these devices and vehicles will use electric energy instead of fossil energies which can change the demand in the future so it's not surprising to see a fight over electric devices and especially car batteries in future in this time I guess many famous companies will fight to take the lead in the market.

[jayce]

I think electric cars will move farther if they use an electric generator to charge the battery from motion energy.
such as electrical energy - motion energy, motion energy - electrical energy, and can rotate continuously. the position here must be two batteries to be used as a backup, but yes this must be tried first and be careful so that it is easier and automatic. So you can charge the battery while your car wheels are still rattling and your journey will be farther.

Indeed it becomes very problematic if we are far from refueling, especially if we are in the middle of a desert road, certainly not a good thing, because refueling for electric cars is not as easily accessible as other common refueling that many retailers have. in public.
Regarding the financing of making, electricity in a country, and its impact is the thing that gets the most attention, considering that the consumption of electricity and batteries is certainly far from what was imagined.

That's an interesting opinion, but from what I have learned in school, that's not efficient, at least with the current technologies. Normally, you have one motor to move your car. But since you need a generator to convert kinetic energy into potential energy, you have to install additional motor. Then, using two motors will consume more energy from your battery and the goal to get more efficient battery can't be achieved.

[Gyfts]

...

These tax incentives do nothing to solve the purported "existential crisis" of climate change. They only produce more debt burdens on the U.S. and won't have even a micro effect on global temperatures. And you'll notice that these folks never seem to discuss what the carbon footprint of creating an EV is -- they seem to only care that gasoline engines are out of the equation. As if EV batteries grow on trees...

[Cryptomultiplier]

I don't think there's a lack of lithium, it's an element that's damaging to the environment to extract iirc and it's quite hard to extract too. Given the circumstances export bans aren't that unreasonable, I think there'll be a better battery that comes out that can be mass produced better than lithium can (and I think that's the hope as some cars are said to have to travel 250,000 miles to have the same emissions of an electric car battery, but once the lithium is extracted and made into a battery, it can likely be well recycled - with renewables too).

I think there should be a crackdown on countries using third countries to avoid taxes too to send from one to another (I think this is done a lot with electronics and pharmaceuticals at least).

I'm not sure it's a good comparison right now we have tight over fossil energy because most devices and vehicles are using fossil energy while we all know in the future most of these devices and vehicles will use electric energy instead of fossil energies which can change the demand in the future so it's not surprising to see a fight over electric devices and especially car batteries in future in this time I guess many famous companies will fight to take the lead in the market.

Batteries right now is a necessity owing to the fact energy consumption has risen and with a battery or two, one can more than be comfortable. It is not a wonder why these electric car batteries is still being developed /improved upon. It is so to more than compensate on delivering efficiency in all its facet, to its users.
The future promises strong competition among its manufacturers mostly now wherein electric cars is becoming rather popular and in use.

[Fortify]

Since electric vehicles are the future, there's a lot of attention for their development, and a battery is currently the most important part of the vehicle, because we still have problems with storing large amounts of electrical energy.

The US is making a lot of moves for helping domestic manufacturers, which worries its allies

The big idea is that a U.S. consumer can claim back $7,500 of the value of an electric car from their tax bill. But to qualify for that credit, the car needs to be assembled in North America and contain a battery with a certain percentage of the metals mined or recycled in the U.S., Canada or Mexico. Those rules become more strict over time, giving American producers time to prepar

President Joe Biden announced $2.8 billion in grants for 20 companies to produce batteries for electric vehicles in the United States.

The grants are being allocated through the Department of Energy with funds from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law to companies in 12 states. The funding will go toward the creation of battery-grade materials including lithium, graphite and nickel.

Zimbabwe also decided to take advantage and try to boost its economy with some protectionism

Zimbabwe earlier this week stopped the export of raw lithium from its mines and said that it wants cash in on the value addition and also stop losing billions to foreign companies via mineral proceeds, news agencies reported.

On December 20, Zimbabwe’s ministry of Mines and Mining Development in a directive published under the nation’s Base Minerals Export Control Act said that the move was made to “ensure that the vision of the president to see the country becoming an upper-middle income economy has been realized.”

It's interesting to see how they have structured the subsidy and from the sounds of it few current car manufacturers would meet the requirements for the cashback. You can see that the US government have gotten tired of all the outsourcing and do not want to let other countries get a lead in this area any more, we can see China which used to be a relatively low level producer of goods has jumped into fairly high level manufacturing now. It makes sense that America would try to protect or even encourage certain industries because China is also getting an advantage from suppressing it's currency and using it's huge workforce to get cheaper production costs - if they weren't a communist country it would be less of a problem.

[Hydrogen]

Since electric vehicles are the future, there's a lot of attention for their development, and a battery is currently the most important part of the vehicle, because we still have problems with storing large amounts of electrical energy.

The US is making a lot of moves for helping domestic manufacturers, which worries its allies

The big idea is that a U.S. consumer can claim back $7,500 of the value of an electric car from their tax bill. But to qualify for that credit, the car needs to be assembled in North America and contain a battery with a certain percentage of the metals mined or recycled in the U.S., Canada or Mexico. Those rules become more strict over time, giving American producers time to prepar

President Joe Biden announced $2.8 billion in grants for 20 companies to produce batteries for electric vehicles in the United States.

The grants are being allocated through the Department of Energy with funds from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law to companies in 12 states. The funding will go toward the creation of battery-grade materials including lithium, graphite and nickel.

Zimbabwe also decided to take advantage and try to boost its economy with some protectionism

Zimbabwe earlier this week stopped the export of raw lithium from its mines and said that it wants cash in on the value addition and also stop losing billions to foreign companies via mineral proceeds, news agencies reported.

On December 20, Zimbabwe’s ministry of Mines and Mining Development in a directive published under the nation’s Base Minerals Export Control Act said that the move was made to “ensure that the vision of the president to see the country becoming an upper-middle income economy has been realized.”

It is very strange but I don't remember africans mentioning themselves being on the losing end of trade agreements, until italy's prime minister Giorgia Meloni began openly acknowledging it.

High cost of fossil fuels, should translate to elevated shipping and transportation costs. Which incentivizes everyone to manufacture and produce locally, as shipping and transport costs become untenable. Its a decline of globalization and global markets, which should naturally be expected.

Many of africa's industries revolve around human labor mining, shipbreaking, strip mining and markets which rely upon low labor and low fossil fuel prices to carry exports. Removing low fossil fuel prices could result in decreased demand for exports, which could have castastrophic results. Although of course, this doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Markets could naturally shift and restructure to fill the gap. Although it could take time.

[stompix]

Most people don't spend 100k EUR on a car. 99% of users will want something cheaper, and cheap doesn't go with electric. For instance, one of the most popular cars in Europe VW Golf starts at 30k EUR, but it's electric crossover version, the ID.4 starts at 46k.
To give you a perspective, you're spending so much money to upgrade your Golf to silent running, that for the same money you could get a new Arteon, their most luxurious model, but with a traditional engine.

The ID.4 is not the equivalent of the Golf as it's larger than both the Golf Variant and Tiguan, the Arteon is not luxury but a simple Passat CC, with 400k registered Porsche cars in Germany and with 16% of the sales going into the luxury and premium Sedan and SUV sales I think there are enough buyers, there is a 4k bonus for over 40k and 9k for under, even at the consumer rates for kwh so no charging stations, electric versus gas still getting 8k before 100k km at current rates for both petrol and electricity in Germany for the models mentioned. Did I get them all?

So for cheap and used cars yes, gasoline is way cheaper, for a mid-size the cost will be recovered somewhere between 100k and 150k km and for luxury it starts making less sense in terms of $.

These are their predictions.
Remember how similar people were saying that Bitcoin would die and go to 0 back in 2013? The same people were predicting the Internet would never be big and people wouldn't need to have computers at home.

Well, right now you're the one defending the regular mail and thinking email won't catch on.

People don't want this to happen though because in simplest terms electric cars suck.
Have you heard of those new Mercedes cars? Their new hybrid 63S doesn't allow you to start in electric mode, you first have to start the combustion engine and then switch to electric and its battery allows you to drive for less than 10km before you run out of power. It's a joke

All AMG hybrids have 4 start-up modes, you can safely drive with full electric in electric or start with comfort mode, but if you want the performance of course for god sake you need to turn the ICE on, it's a hybrid, it has a Biturbo V8 600hp+ engine, how can you get performance with the auxiliary in a hybrid?

[bitgolden]

1.  Expensive compared to just about every other car.

2.  Shorter range then a conventional gas or diesel.

3.  Replacement (gas tank=battery) is harder and more expensive compared to conventional gas or diesel.

4.  Cold weather makes the range problem Much worse. (like die in your car worse if you haven't planned for that emergency)

5.  Simply Not convenient compared to gasoline or diesel filling.  (takes too much time)

6.  Unless the power source is hydro electric, solar or, nuclear its Not greener then hydrocarbons.  Since you are burning the hydrocarbons in a extra step or 5 instead of burning it directly.

7.  Use of the Heater option during cold weather will reduce range (refer to 4)

Some of them are legit concerns and not only they are just concerns but they are not addressed or even tried to be fixed neither. Like yeah it's expensive but instead of paying a lot for gas, you get near free electricity from solar if you have it, so just have solar panels at the top of your house and use your car to go somewhere and then when get home you charge it for free, simple solution and the difference is small enough to pass if you use the same car for a few years.

It is not at all and that is not even looked at right now, hence an issue I am sure will not be fixed anytime soon. There are issues we need to try to solve, even if we do not have solutions now, we should at least look for one instead of ignoring it.

[Dickiy]

I think electric cars will move farther if they use an electric generator to charge the battery from motion energy.
such as electrical energy - motion energy, motion energy - electrical energy, and can rotate continuously. the position here must be two batteries to be used as a backup, but yes this must be tried first and be careful so that it is easier and automatic. So you can charge the battery while your car wheels are still rattling and your journey will be farther.

Indeed it becomes very problematic if we are far from refueling, especially if we are in the middle of a desert road, certainly not a good thing, because refueling for electric cars is not as easily accessible as other common refueling that many retailers have. in public.
Regarding the financing of making, electricity in a country, and its impact is the thing that gets the most attention, considering that the consumption of electricity and batteries is certainly far from what was imagined.

That's an interesting opinion, but from what I have learned in school, that's not efficient, at least with the current technologies. Normally, you have one motor to move your car. But since you need a generator to convert kinetic energy into potential energy, you have to install additional motor. Then, using two motors will consume more energy from your battery and the goal to get more efficient battery can't be achieved.

My point is that we install a simple power generator a dynamo that utilizes rotating car wheels, such as hydro and wind power plants that use an AC magnetic generator. such a generator requires no other source of power except the movement of the wheels, and is relatively small in size so it does not take up much space.
so I don't mean a generator that requires power (fossil fuel/electricity) but a simple magnetic generator that only requires motion power to get electricity.
Yes, even so, I haven't tested it yet due to the limited facilities to do it, which maybe if it's been tested we can simplify it so that it's more effective for electric vehicles so it doesn't consume a lot of electricity.

[coolcoinz]

The ID.4 is not the equivalent of the Golf as it's larger than both the Golf Variant and Tiguan,

The smaller, ID.3 costs only 2k less in the cheapest version, so it doesn't really change much if you want to compare sizes. ID.3 costs 44k and it's almost exactly the same size as Golf. You could have the Arteon for 1k EUR more.

the Arteon is not luxury but a simple Passat CC,

At this time it's the closest thing to a limousine that VW offers. It's also made to be better equipped and more comfortable than the old CC.
I used it to compare with the golf and and an electric car of similar size from the same manufacturer. It's obviously better to pay for more space, better looks, some useful features, than throw the same money into a silent running mode from a battery.

with 400k registered Porsche cars in Germany and with 16% of the sales going into the luxury and premium Sedan and SUV sales I think there are enough buyers, there is a 4k bonus for over 40k and 9k for under, even at the consumer rates for kwh so no charging stations, electric versus gas still getting 8k before 100k km at current rates for both petrol and electricity in Germany for the models mentioned. Did I get them all?
So for cheap and used cars yes, gasoline is way cheaper, for a mid-size the cost will be recovered somewhere between 100k and 150k km and for luxury it starts making less sense in terms of $.
To be honest it doesn't even make sense for premium car users.

How many of these Porsche users are people who actually love the sound of the engine and would never sell their car to buy a new electric substitute? People who buy a car like that do it for various reasons, but being eco-friendly is not one of them.

So, according to you, it makes sense for that 16% people who buy luxury cars to switch to electric and throw some of their precious time out of the window. Electric cars are basically for people who drive up to an hour to work and back and then leave the car for charging in a warm garage. You need to drive 300km in negative temperature? Stay in line to the charger and then have a nap while the car is doing its thing, or carry a generator in the trunk.


Have you ever seen electric cars at an interstate? If yes  then you've probably seen them go below the speed limit, because that's what you have to do to get the mileage. Whatever the manufacturer tells you to be the maximum is at the average speed of 80km/h.

Well, right now you're the one defending the regular mail and thinking email won't catch on.

Here's the thing, you never know if the thing advertised as "better" ends up being the successor.
Electric engines are not the only ones in the race. They could win, but definitely not with the current batteries that they're using. Their cost, disposal, their fire hazard... those are issues, but the biggest ones are their capacity and lifetime. Check out how many electric cars without batteries you can find for sale, specially the cheap ones like Renaults. After 5 years their batteries hold very little charge and cost of replacing them is a third of the price of a new car.

All AMG hybrids have 4 start-up modes, you can safely drive with full electric in electric or start with comfort mode, but if you want the performance of course for god sake you need to turn the ICE on, it's a hybrid, it has a Biturbo V8 600hp+ engine, how can you get performance with the auxiliary in a hybrid?

You're saying it because you drove it, or read about it on the manufacturer's site?
There are 4 modes, but the "electric" is disabled until you warm up the car.
You can only start it in 3/4 modes and the electric becomes available after a while, so it doesn't allow you to drive straight out of the parking spot or your garage in electric mode.

The hybrid engine in this model is made only to satisfy the emission standards. It has no real purpose and most people won't even use it. It's a fine example of how fake the industry has become.

[jayce]

My point is that we install a simple power generator a dynamo that utilizes rotating car wheels, such as hydro and wind power plants that use an AC magnetic generator. such a generator requires no other source of power except the movement of the wheels, and is relatively small in size so it does not take up much space.
so I don't mean a generator that requires power (fossil fuel/electricity) but a simple magnetic generator that only requires motion power to get electricity.
Yes, even so, I haven't tested it yet due to the limited facilities to do it, which maybe if it's been tested we can simplify it so that it's more effective for electric vehicles so it doesn't consume a lot of electricity.

I get your point, but even if we install the magnetic generator that not require power, its weight in the car still affect the power consumption. The heavier the car, the more power needed. Beside that, this article says that normally an electric car consumes approx 0.20 kWh/km, and theoretically, you can generate that amount of power with 1m diameter turbine with 100% efficiency rate. But you must need 1m3 per second water stream to generate that power. I don't think we can find any stream with that big flow rate continuously while we are driving on the road.

However, while having a simple power generator installed in the car sounds not possible with current technology, some researchers using hydro-power generator for recharge station of electric car. You just need a spot where you could place the power generator and find suitable resources with enough stream to move the turbine. I like your idea but installing the additional generator into your car isn't efficient, even not applicable, at least for now.

[franky1]

Most people don't spend 100k EUR on a car. 99% of users will want something cheaper, and cheap doesn't go with electric. For instance, one of the most popular cars in Europe VW Golf starts at 30k EUR, but it's electric crossover version, the ID.4 starts at 46k.

To give you a perspective, you're spending so much money to upgrade your Golf to silent running, that for the same money you could get a new Arteon, their most luxurious model, but with a traditional engine.
Is it worth going electric? Not yet, not at these prices.

the decision becomes.. how much are you paying to move the vehicle
euro to pound for my math
€30k fuel car €46k ev car
£26.5 fuel car  £40.6k ev car (difference £14.1k)

i personally do not have a EV car. but i do have fun town touring on a EV bike
it costs me £0.10 to charge my EV bike to do 20miles (0.005 per mile)
any way. using numbers i know
fuel car is about £80 to do 300miles which is about £0.266 a mile
EV car is about £14 to do 300miles which is about to do £0.05 a mile

if doing 5500miles a year(15miles a day)
on a car for 4 years average(21,000miles)
fuel: £5600
ev: £1050

saving is on 4 year use £4550 or roughly 12 years and a couple months to break even with £14.1k
it only becomes economical if you are going to use that car to do 65,000 miles break even
or if the price changes again on fuel from the fuel base cost of my calculation of £1.45 a litre

[adaseb]

Some guy on the Chevy bolt forum said that it cost him $17K to replace the battery on his bolt back in 2018. Now the cost is slower to $19K according to repair pal.

Looking at MSRP values the 2018 bolt sold for $37.5K. Most likely for much less due to government incentives. So let’s say it sold for $35K.

Now a few years later, will you pay $20K for a new battery. Most likely the market value of a bolt is in the $20K range anyways. So the car becomes worthless when battery goes out.

[so98nn]

How far we are going to go with this thing? The whole electric vehicle thing is getting developed at very fast rate but the technology is really old. I mean considering the timeline that we are in and pace of demand that’s rising over the period of time is crazy and all they are relying on is the same old lithium batteries.

If anyway they are putting so much money in the research and development of new technologies then they should invest more into new type of batteries.

Smaller in size and high throughput that’s what they really need in the long run.

If they stop chasing the old tech and improve the batteries the fight may be over soon.

[stompix]

You're saying it because you drove it, or read about it on the manufacturer's site?
There are 4 modes, but the "electric" is disabled until you warm up the car.
You can only start it in 3/4 modes and the electric becomes available after a while, so it doesn't allow you to drive straight out of the parking spot or your garage in electric mode.

You're saying that because you drove it or you read on the manufacturer's website? 
The company that provides transport for us, airport shuttles, events, stuff like that has had for years two Sx50 hybrids, I know for sure those have 4 drive modes and I know for sure it can start and drive in full electric. Now, and this is where it becomes funny if I would have owned one or I would have gone to the manufacturer's website I would have known there are 7 drives modes out of which 6 are for driving from zero and one adaptive mode, so how did you get the 3 out 4? You realize at this point that you criticizing this model with your current knowledge is quite silly, right?

How many of these Porsche users are people who actually love the sound of the engine and would never sell their car to buy a new electric substitute? People who buy a car like that do it for various reasons, but being eco-friendly is not one of them.

Probably far fewer than you expect, noise is nothing without torque
It's design, speed, handling, and not the noise that sells that car!

I used it to compare with the golf and and an electric car of similar size from the same manufacturer. It's obviously better to pay for more space, better looks, some useful features, than throw the same money into a silent running mode from a battery.

No, you didn't! Don't you realize how biased you are when you compare the id4 with a far small car when looking at the price and then you say it's better to have more room and more space when comparing it with a larger model that is, surprise not that large at all? Common, seriously I expected you to be far more objective on this!



You stick to the arbitrary things while ignoring the main thing that started this discussion and as much as it pains me to admit here I have to agree with franky1, you obviously and purposely toss aside numbers, ignore the running cost, ignore the average distance travel ignore everything bar the starting price, and this is no way of comparing two cars when you don't have an unlimited budget while stressing the decision is aimed at for saving money!

[o48o]

-cut-
4. New technologies on an industrial scale are on the way - supercapacitors, and batteries based on more accessible, simple and environmentally friendly materials.
-cut-

Yes, eventually. But to my knowledge these alternatives that scientists have been exploring are very much still in experimental or research state. And as electric vechiles are a rapidly growing industry, investors would be foolish not to put money for research of cheaper and more environmental battery.

And yes, these are coming, they could be sodium, magnesium, aluminium or god knows what based tech, but for now we are still heavily developing lithium based battery innovations. And new kind of tech takes time from research to manufacturing. European Green Deal could speed things up but i don't see it showing on the industustry very soon.

[Doan9269]

With some recent inventions whereby there have been use of electric cars and solar panels cars that will ease the environmental effect of the electric car batteries with the effect of lithium in the environment making life difficult for land and aquatic lives, sourcing for alternative to these use of electric car battery could bringbin more advantages than as expected with the former, andbthe risk to economic growth and supply of batteries for transportation will be reduced since there's abundance with the renewable source for cars to use in transportation than fully dependent on electric car batteries.

[coolcoinz]

the decision becomes.. how much are you paying to move the vehicle
euro to pound for my math
€30k fuel car €46k ev car
£26.5 fuel car  £40.6k ev car (difference £14.1k)

i personally do not have a EV car. but i do have fun town touring on a EV bike
it costs me £0.10 to charge my EV bike to do 20miles (0.005 per mile)
any way. using numbers i know
fuel car is about £80 to do 300miles which is about £0.266 a mile
EV car is about £14 to do 300miles which is about to do £0.05 a mile

if doing 5500miles a year(15miles a day)
on a car for 4 years average(21,000miles)
fuel: £5600
ev: £1050

saving is on 4 year use £4550 or roughly 12 years and a couple months to break even with £14.1k
it only becomes economical if you are going to use that car to do 65,000 miles break even
or if the price changes again on fuel from the fuel base cost of my calculation of £1.45 a litre

I completely support electric bikes, especially that I had the pleasure to ride one that could easily allow me to go over 30km with partial support from the engine.
Pros of an EV bike:
Fine range, not many people go on bike trips that require more than 40km range in one go.
Great utility, allows you to go uphill for 15 min straight without going into cardiac arrest.
Cons:
Price, but they aren't that expensive.
Weight

With Electric cars IMHO there's much more cons.

The main problem in your calculation of 12 years is that the EV won't make it that long without a new battery. If after 8 years you have to add 5k EUR for a new battery the ROI gets much longer.

Some guy on the Chevy bolt forum said that it cost him $17K to replace the battery on his bolt back in 2018. Now the cost is slower to $19K according to repair pal.

Looking at MSRP values the 2018 bolt sold for $37.5K. Most likely for much less due to government incentives. So let’s say it sold for $35K.

Now a few years later, will you pay $20K for a new battery. Most likely the market value of a bolt is in the $20K range anyways. So the car becomes worthless when battery goes out.

This is exactly what I'm trying to point at. The same problem the Renault Zoe users have. The battery lasts up to 8 years or 160k Km.
you're paying 30k EUR for a car that's going to depreciate about 80% in value over the next 10 years and most likely is going to get scrapped after that because nobody will pay 10k+ to get a new battery for a car that's worth maybe 5k without it...

You're saying that because you drove it or you read on the manufacturer's website?  
The company that provides transport for us, airport shuttles, events, stuff like that has had for years two Sx50 hybrids, I know for sure those have 4 drive modes and I know for sure it can start and drive in full electric. Now, and this is where it becomes funny if I would have owned one or I would have gone to the manufacturer's website I would have known there are 7 drives modes out of which 6 are for driving from zero and one adaptive mode, so how did you get the 3 out 4? You realize at this point that you criticizing this model with your current knowledge is quite silly, right?

So, that means you haven't driven one, haven't been driven in one and are trying to argue with me when I tell you that Electric mode is unavailable when the car is cold. I'm sure it's the way I say it is, but it seems we have to agree to disagree. I don't have one at hand to record you a video.

Probably far fewer than you expect, noise is nothing without torque
It's design, speed, handling, and not the noise that sells that car!

"Probably" is a key word here.

No, you didn't! Don't you realize how biased you are when you compare the id4 with a far small car when looking at the price and then you say it's better to have more room and more space when comparing it with a larger model that is, surprise not that large at all? Common, seriously I expected you to be far more objective on this!

That's why I said you can compare ID.3 if you want. It's still much more expensive than the golf.

You stick to the arbitrary things while ignoring the main thing that started this discussion and as much as it pains me to admit here I have to agree with franky1, you obviously and purposely toss aside numbers, ignore the running cost, ignore the average distance travel ignore everything bar the starting price, and this is no way of comparing two cars when you don't have an unlimited budget while stressing the decision is aimed at for saving money!

Well, It doesn't pain me when I have to agree with someone.

Here's a running cost for you:

With current prices of 84 cents per kWh, charging the car to travel 100 kilometres would cost about €12.60, the paper said. And that makes electric cars, in many cases, more expensive to run than petrol ones.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2022/12/tesla-owner-charges-car-by-linking-it-up-to-a-street-lamp/

[stompix]

I'm sure it's the way I say it is, but it seems we have to agree to disagree. I don't have one at hand to record you a video.

Make sure in that video to record how many modes there are on that car because if it shows 7 I might ask again why did you say there are 4 yesterday 
Common, you did it only to contradict me without knowing yourself how that car really looks, you fell for it, man up, and be done with it.

That's why I said you can compare ID.3 if you want. It's still much more expensive than the golf.

You started with the id4, get over with the id4, and don't switch cars as you fit just to try and avoid numbers.
Let's do the math for both cars now with the current! prices, current insurance, current tax, and current government bonus and see how this ends in 4 years of usage, are you up to it? Of course not, cause if you were you would have contradicted franky1 numbers!

Here's a running cost for you:
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2022/12/tesla-owner-charges-car-by-linking-it-up-to-a-street-lamp/

Bruh, let me tell you this straight, this is bullshit and you know it too well.
You went for a sensationalist article without bothering to look at real prices!
Here is an example of a contract for exactly the town of Oud-Beijerland, with numbers that are half of what the article claims.



Just put a big banner in 100m red fonts with "electric cars suck" next time and be done with it, don't try to give the impression you're willing to debate or discuss numbers since you obviously don't want, you hate them and there is no way for anyone to convince you of anything else. So after the 3 out of 4 and 80cents/kwh I'm not trying it either anymore.