The fight over electric car batteries

[hatshepsut93]

Since electric vehicles are the future, there's a lot of attention for their development, and a battery is currently the most important part of the vehicle, because we still have problems with storing large amounts of electrical energy.

The US is making a lot of moves for helping domestic manufacturers, which worries its allies

The big idea is that a U.S. consumer can claim back $7,500 of the value of an electric car from their tax bill. But to qualify for that credit, the car needs to be assembled in North America and contain a battery with a certain percentage of the metals mined or recycled in the U.S., Canada or Mexico. Those rules become more strict over time, giving American producers time to prepar

President Joe Biden announced $2.8 billion in grants for 20 companies to produce batteries for electric vehicles in the United States.

The grants are being allocated through the Department of Energy with funds from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law to companies in 12 states. The funding will go toward the creation of battery-grade materials including lithium, graphite and nickel.

Zimbabwe also decided to take advantage and try to boost its economy with some protectionism

Zimbabwe earlier this week stopped the export of raw lithium from its mines and said that it wants cash in on the value addition and also stop losing billions to foreign companies via mineral proceeds, news agencies reported.

On December 20, Zimbabwe’s ministry of Mines and Mining Development in a directive published under the nation’s Base Minerals Export Control Act said that the move was made to “ensure that the vision of the president to see the country becoming an upper-middle income economy has been realized.”

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[jackg]

I don't think there's a lack of lithium, it's an element that's damaging to the environment to extract iirc and it's quite hard to extract too. Given the circumstances export bans aren't that unreasonable, I think there'll be a better battery that comes out that can be mass produced better than lithium can (and I think that's the hope as some cars are said to have to travel 250,000 miles to have the same emissions of an electric car battery, but once the lithium is extracted and made into a battery, it can likely be well recycled - with renewables too).

I think there should be a crackdown on countries using third countries to avoid taxes too to send from one to another (I think this is done a lot with electronics and pharmaceuticals at least).

[davis196]

The US is making a lot of moves for helping domestic manufacturers, which worries its allies

Why would supporting your own industry "worry" your allies? I don't have any information about the governments in Canada, UK or the western European countries being worried because USA supports it's own Electric Vehicle industry. How did you come up with this theory?
Nobody is saying that electric vehicles are the future(maybe except the most fanatic EV supporters). Hydrogen fueled cars also have potential.
The future of the automobile transport would most likely be a mixture between electric vehicles and hydrogen vehicles. This might happen after several decades. Gasoline and diesel won't be dumped soon. The Li Ion batteries will have to be replaced by solid state batteries or graphene batteries.

[hatshepsut93]

Why would supporting your own industry "worry" your allies? I don't have any information about the governments in Canada, UK or the western European countries being worried because USA supports it's own Electric Vehicle industry. How did you come up with this theory?

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/08/25/us-tax-credits-for-electric-vehicles-called-discriminatory-sparking-talks-of-a-possible-tr

But manufacturers in Europe and South Korea, which sell millions of vehicles in the US, have threatened to lodge legal complaints with the World Trade Organization (WTO).

Earlier this month, when asked about the tax credit, European Commission spokeswoman Miriam Garcia Ferrer said, "we think that it's discriminatory, that it's discriminating against foreign producers in relation to US producers," calling the credits a "new, potential, trans-Atlantic trade barrier."

Nobody is saying that electric vehicles are the future(maybe except the most fanatic EV supporters). Hydrogen fueled cars also have potential.
The future of the automobile transport would most likely be a mixture between electric vehicles and hydrogen vehicles. This might happen after several decades. Gasoline and diesel won't be dumped soon.

The market thinks that it is. Look at the marketcap of Tesla, compare it with any combustion engine or hydrogen car. It seems like right now electric cars are much closer to wide adoption than hydrogen cars.

[dothebeats]

China is currently leading when it comes to the production of lithium-free (at least that's what they claim to be) battery packs for electric vehicles. The tech is certainly there, but it's way cheaper to slap lithium into a battery pack and expect it to run as flawless as it can be because the process and the design is already established. For sure, EV manufacturers are actively setting their R&D team on fire pressuring them to find a better alternative than lithium, but for now that will be the case and I think people should embrace it whether they like it or not.

But what I don't understand is, why are car manufacturers angry with companies and governments coming up with some solutions to a long-standing problem about vehicle emission and waste? Governments supporting the cause of EV may be concerning to petrol powered cars but not the environment in the long run—if they find a solution to replacing lithium with other minerals that is.

[Die_empty]

It might be strange to many people but I have never seen or touched an electric vehicle except on media devices. Sometimes I wonder how my continent would cope with electric vehicles due to the diverse economic and political challenges it is battling. My prediction is that petrol vehicles would still be available for more decades at least in developing nations.

Nations trying to protect their industries hurt other nations' economies because of the interconnectedness and interdependence created by globalization. Most nations depend on exports to other nations for economic survival. That is why it is important for trade ministers to always discuss and negotiate trade deals with other nations so that there should be a balanced trade relationship. This is because strict enforcement of economic nationalism policies might give rise to unhealthy competition and reckless trade embargoes between nations.

[adaseb]

Yes the biggest drawback to electric cars are the batteries. When they go bad it’s very costly to replace. Hence why the value drops when they reach a certain mileage. Even with smaller cars like the Chevy Bolt a battery replacement can be almost 5 figures or so.

This pretty will make many models disposable cars pretty much when they reach a certain mileage because without a proper battery they are worthless. With ice it’s different because you can almost buy an engine from another vehicle at a salvage auction, with batteries it doesn’t work like that.

[franky1]

when it comes to import bans
this is a environment decisions of transporting raw toxic chemicals.
the obvious solution is far cheaper and less paperwork/regulation
is to build the final product battery in the country the toxic material is mined in. and then ship the final SAFE product

this means US cant import lithium and make batteries. instead it has to import end-product batteries. or mine lithium domestically inside the US to make batteries inside the US

the added cost of US domestic mining and then domestic production of batteries is a large price hike of cost of batteries

[Kakmakr]

Well, Elon Musk made sure that he cashed in on the possible shortage that might occur with batteries for electric vehicles, by building that massive factory. "Musk said Tesla would have capacity to produce 100 gigawatt hours of 4680 batteries this year, enough to power about 1.3 million cars, and more than enough to supply production at factories in Texas and Germany." - Source : https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/musks-plan-tesla-built-batteries-has-an-acceleration-challenge-2022-03-11/

So that is Tesla's needs covered... but what about all the other EV manufacturers .... will China produce the rest of those? 

[franky1]

Well, Elon Musk made sure that he cashed in on the possible shortage that might occur with batteries for electric vehicles, by building that massive factory. "Musk said Tesla would have capacity to produce 100 gigawatt hours of 4680 batteries this year, enough to power about 1.3 million cars,

thats building the "top-up garage(pit-stops)" supply/power plants store.. where they store energy to then distribute at night or on non-windy days to the cars that need energy to charge up when their home solar system is not getting energy on a clear sunny day

but to build 1.3m cars needs a further 1.3m batteries

an average car has a 75kwh battery. allowing for a optimum 4mile/kwh
(300mile range per charge)

1.3m cars end up needing 975,00,000 KWH
97500000kwh
97500mwh
97.5gwh

in total tesla would need 200GW to supply its power banks(pitstop storage/home store/power plants) and the cars

needing 200GW PER YEAR to have cars and their recharge source storage. is a 1.3m car a year thing

there are currently 260m cars in just america meaning to convert all cars would take 200 years

[DrBeer]

Lithium, as the basis for batteries used in electric vehicles, will soon become a thing of the past.
Lithium, as a base for batteries, has several disadvantages.
1. This is the geography of deposits and production. In today's world, where resources become a "weapon" for economic terrorism - lithium, given its geography of deposits, is a very risky resource.
2. Production and processing technology is far from environmentally friendly
3. Today's capabilities of this technology will not satisfy the needs of the market.
4. New technologies on an industrial scale are on the way - supercapacitors, and batteries based on more accessible, simple and environmentally friendly materials.

Therefore, everyone understands who will have time to enter the market with a more technologically advanced and acceptable solution - "staking out for themselves", the huge "territories" of the global market for electric vehicles, behind which the future

[STT]

Sounds like Lithium would be similar to the case 'rare' earths are really just a big pain to consolidate and make usable not quite so rare as that.   Tanzania did something similar to Zimbabwe but with gold where they demand involvement in post process after mining, their argument with the worlds largest miner took years but with such profits available they can demand the exact conduct of business performed in their country.
   We are hearing lots of details but all of this adds up to one thing for me in that commodities will boom over the next decade and beyond, such is their vital part in the economy and demand far outweighs any currency standard or cost vs their elemental utility.

an average car has a 75kwh battery

That might be twice what they need, depends on the market but a light small car could be a third of that size and usable in a city easily.   We will see refinement and improvements to EV standards.

[franky1]

Sounds like Lithium would be similar to the case 'rare' earths are really just a big pain to consolidate and make usable not quite so rare as that.  

an average car has a 75kwh battery

That might be twice what they need, depends on the market but a light small car could be a third of that size and usable in a city easily.   We will see refinement and improvements to EV standards.

when new methods of "desalinating water"(the next "new industry") lithium will become more accessible from the brine left from desalination.
....
yes there will be more small "city cars" where people are not buying large SUV's but instead small cars like a VW bug(fiat500/nissan leaf) size, but thats just a cost efficient and lack of availability of larger vehicles

however add in the delivery trucks and parcel delivery vans which are starting to come out now. it average out the same requirement

[Nhazwrath]

The real problems of lithium batteries in cars have not been addressed here.

Here's my list

1.  Expensive compared to just about every other car.

2.  Shorter range then a conventional gas or diesel.

3.  Replacement (gas tank=battery) is harder and more expensive compared to conventional gas or diesel.

4.  Cold weather makes the range problem Much worse. (like die in your car worse if you haven't planned for that emergency)

5.  Simply Not convenient compared to gasoline or diesel filling.  (takes too much time)

6.  Unless the power source is hydro electric, solar or, nuclear its Not greener then hydrocarbons.  Since you are burning the hydrocarbons in a extra step or 5 instead of burning it directly.

7.  Use of the Heater option during cold weather will reduce range (refer to 4)

All in all to me theres nothing about the current electric cars other then(save the planet)(OMG auto pilot) that makes them attractive.

[stompix]

After the well-known Nigerian price, we had the Ugandan gold tycoon who discovered a gold mine with 100 times the concentration fo any gold mine and now we have the richest lithium mine in the Universe, that could produce

If the Arcadia Lithium Mine, located 308 kms south of the capital Harare, is deployed then the annual production will reach 2.5 million tons, bringing in $3 billion in exports.

2.5 million tons a year from he total reserves Zimbabwe has of 500 000t, so , it will operate probably only for two months and close down 

Also, Zimbabwe and protectionism, I remember how that went with their masterplan in agriculture, nationalize the evil white farmers' land, destroy the farms, render them useless, beg the farmers to return, beg them on all fours, beg them and pay more in damages and retributions than when nationalizing them, pretty well.

The real problems of lithium batteries in cars have not been addressed here.
Here's my list
1.  Expensive compared to just about every other car.

It depends a lot on the model, for the mini-cars definitely, if you go for the middle segment starts to dwindle as a Peugeot 2008 is 37k vs 26k, but for others like the luxury or large SUV the differences in percentage becomes rather insignificant or it becomes cheaper, the standard electric Q8 e-ton is 2000 euros lower than the gasoline basic.

 

[jayce]

The real problems of lithium batteries in cars have not been addressed here.

Here's my list

...
2.  Shorter range then a conventional gas or diesel.
...

I googled to know more about that and I found an article on https://motorandwheels.com/, it says;

Electric vehicles offer an average of around 306 miles on a single charge while gas-powered vehicles go a good 300 miles with a full tank. So, you get a bit more mileage on average by choosing an electric car.

I think the real issue is, the location of charging station for those electric cars, which the cost to build one is much higher and must have better security system than the gas station.

[FanEagle]

The problem with the electric cars is that they are causing a lot more trouble to world to produce than gas cars, and cover that difference back when you use it more. So when you buy one, because of the lithium mining that went into building the car, you just hurt the world a bit more than gas cars, but then you use electric instead of gas so you helped the nation, the more you use your electric car the more you help the world and eventually it becomes a climate profit instead of negative.

However, if you cold find recycling and so forth other options instead of mining it, then you will straight up just help the world and this is why this bill is so important.

[Dickiy]

The real problems of lithium batteries in cars have not been addressed here.

Here's my list

...
2.  Shorter range then a conventional gas or diesel.
...

I googled to know more about that and I found an article on https://motorandwheels.com/, it says;

Electric vehicles offer an average of around 306 miles on a single charge while gas-powered vehicles go a good 300 miles with a full tank. So, you get a bit more mileage on average by choosing an electric car.

I think the real issue is, the location of charging station for those electric cars, which the cost to build one is much higher and must have better security system than the gas station.

I think electric cars will move farther if they use an electric generator to charge the battery from motion energy.
such as electrical energy - motion energy, motion energy - electrical energy, and can rotate continuously. the position here must be two batteries to be used as a backup, but yes this must be tried first and be careful so that it is easier and automatic. So you can charge the battery while your car wheels are still rattling and your journey will be farther.

Indeed it becomes very problematic if we are far from refueling, especially if we are in the middle of a desert road, certainly not a good thing, because refueling for electric cars is not as easily accessible as other common refueling that many retailers have. in public.
Regarding the financing of making, electricity in a country, and its impact is the thing that gets the most attention, considering that the consumption of electricity and batteries is certainly far from what was imagined.

[uneng]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_lithium_production

Zimbabwe's lithium production is the sixth larger in the world and has been decreasing since 2019. They have a lot of influence, but I think they aren't a game changer on this market. Australia, Chile and China productions are much more expressive and decisive here if they want to introduce protective measures.

Australia is the key point here and last year they supplied half the world's lithium volume. If USA is going to adopt hostile economical measures against their allies on this matter, I guess they could wait for retaliation from an allied nation like Australia who will be the main prejudiced one here.

[coupable]

Even without new policies or regulations, electric vehicle sales will account for half of private passenger car sales globally in 2035.
The electrification of personal transportation vehicles is accelerating in ways that even the most ardent proponents of the trend could not have dreamed of just a few years ago. In many countries, governors intended to accelerate this change. And I think the US government has taken proactive measures in this regard.
This is not limited to the US government or just because of the high demand. In addition to technical problems, there is a strategic war against other countries that monopolize these industries. American and European start-up companies specialized in developing new batteries for electric cars are engaged in a fierce war using two abundant and cheap materials, sodium and sulfur, which may help them limit China's dominance in this market and mitigate an expected crisis in the near future.

[coolcoinz]

The real problems of lithium batteries in cars have not been addressed here.
Here's my list
1.  Expensive compared to just about every other car.

It depends a lot on the model, for the mini-cars definitely, if you go for the middle segment starts to dwindle as a Peugeot 2008 is 37k vs 26k, but for others like the luxury or large SUV the differences in percentage becomes rather insignificant or it becomes cheaper, the standard electric Q8 e-ton is 2000 euros lower than the gasoline basic.

Most people don't spend 100k EUR on a car. 99% of users will want something cheaper, and cheap doesn't go with electric. For instance, one of the most popular cars in Europe VW Golf starts at 30k EUR, but it's electric crossover version, the ID.4 starts at 46k.

To give you a perspective, you're spending so much money to upgrade your Golf to silent running, that for the same money you could get a new Arteon, their most luxurious model, but with a traditional engine.
Is it worth going electric? Not yet, not at these prices.

Even without new policies or regulations, electric vehicle sales will account for half of private passenger car sales globally in 2035.
The electrification of personal transportation vehicles is accelerating in ways that even the most ardent proponents of the trend could not have dreamed of just a few years ago. In many countries, governors intended to accelerate this change. And I think the US government has taken proactive measures in this regard.
This is not limited to the US government or just because of the high demand. In addition to technical problems, there is a strategic war against other countries that monopolize these industries. American and European start-up companies specialized in developing new batteries for electric cars are engaged in a fierce war using two abundant and cheap materials, sodium and sulfur, which may help them limit China's dominance in this market and mitigate an expected crisis in the near future.

These are their predictions.

Remember how similar people were saying that Bitcoin would die and go to 0 back in 2013? The same people were predicting the Internet would never be big and people wouldn't need to have computers at home.

I'm far from believing them and these predictions about 50% new cars sold being electric cars are made only because most companies claim they will stop producing combustion engines by 2040 so you won't be able to buy a new car that burns fuel anymore.

People don't want this to happen though because in simplest terms electric cars suck.
Have you heard of those new Mercedes cars? Their new hybrid 63S doesn't allow you to start in electric mode, you first have to start the combustion engine and then switch to electric and its battery allows you to drive for less than 10km before you run out of power. It's a joke. Then they made fully electric cars where you have to pay a subscription to unlock full power. Without paying thousands of dollars each month you don't have access to the whole package. Is this what the electric progress brings us? Is that the future of the industry? If yes then it sucks for us - slaves.

[Leviathan.007]

I don't think there's a lack of lithium, it's an element that's damaging to the environment to extract iirc and it's quite hard to extract too. Given the circumstances export bans aren't that unreasonable, I think there'll be a better battery that comes out that can be mass produced better than lithium can (and I think that's the hope as some cars are said to have to travel 250,000 miles to have the same emissions of an electric car battery, but once the lithium is extracted and made into a battery, it can likely be well recycled - with renewables too).

I think there should be a crackdown on countries using third countries to avoid taxes too to send from one to another (I think this is done a lot with electronics and pharmaceuticals at least).

I'm not sure it's a good comparison right now we have tight over fossil energy because most devices and vehicles are using fossil energy while we all know in the future most of these devices and vehicles will use electric energy instead of fossil energies which can change the demand in the future so it's not surprising to see a fight over electric devices and especially car batteries in future in this time I guess many famous companies will fight to take the lead in the market.

[jayce]

I think electric cars will move farther if they use an electric generator to charge the battery from motion energy.
such as electrical energy - motion energy, motion energy - electrical energy, and can rotate continuously. the position here must be two batteries to be used as a backup, but yes this must be tried first and be careful so that it is easier and automatic. So you can charge the battery while your car wheels are still rattling and your journey will be farther.

Indeed it becomes very problematic if we are far from refueling, especially if we are in the middle of a desert road, certainly not a good thing, because refueling for electric cars is not as easily accessible as other common refueling that many retailers have. in public.
Regarding the financing of making, electricity in a country, and its impact is the thing that gets the most attention, considering that the consumption of electricity and batteries is certainly far from what was imagined.

That's an interesting opinion, but from what I have learned in school, that's not efficient, at least with the current technologies. Normally, you have one motor to move your car. But since you need a generator to convert kinetic energy into potential energy, you have to install additional motor. Then, using two motors will consume more energy from your battery and the goal to get more efficient battery can't be achieved.

[Gyfts]

...

These tax incentives do nothing to solve the purported "existential crisis" of climate change. They only produce more debt burdens on the U.S. and won't have even a micro effect on global temperatures. And you'll notice that these folks never seem to discuss what the carbon footprint of creating an EV is -- they seem to only care that gasoline engines are out of the equation. As if EV batteries grow on trees...

[Cryptomultiplier]

I don't think there's a lack of lithium, it's an element that's damaging to the environment to extract iirc and it's quite hard to extract too. Given the circumstances export bans aren't that unreasonable, I think there'll be a better battery that comes out that can be mass produced better than lithium can (and I think that's the hope as some cars are said to have to travel 250,000 miles to have the same emissions of an electric car battery, but once the lithium is extracted and made into a battery, it can likely be well recycled - with renewables too).

I think there should be a crackdown on countries using third countries to avoid taxes too to send from one to another (I think this is done a lot with electronics and pharmaceuticals at least).

I'm not sure it's a good comparison right now we have tight over fossil energy because most devices and vehicles are using fossil energy while we all know in the future most of these devices and vehicles will use electric energy instead of fossil energies which can change the demand in the future so it's not surprising to see a fight over electric devices and especially car batteries in future in this time I guess many famous companies will fight to take the lead in the market.

Batteries right now is a necessity owing to the fact energy consumption has risen and with a battery or two, one can more than be comfortable. It is not a wonder why these electric car batteries is still being developed /improved upon. It is so to more than compensate on delivering efficiency in all its facet, to its users.
The future promises strong competition among its manufacturers mostly now wherein electric cars is becoming rather popular and in use.

[Fortify]

Since electric vehicles are the future, there's a lot of attention for their development, and a battery is currently the most important part of the vehicle, because we still have problems with storing large amounts of electrical energy.

The US is making a lot of moves for helping domestic manufacturers, which worries its allies

The big idea is that a U.S. consumer can claim back $7,500 of the value of an electric car from their tax bill. But to qualify for that credit, the car needs to be assembled in North America and contain a battery with a certain percentage of the metals mined or recycled in the U.S., Canada or Mexico. Those rules become more strict over time, giving American producers time to prepar

President Joe Biden announced $2.8 billion in grants for 20 companies to produce batteries for electric vehicles in the United States.

The grants are being allocated through the Department of Energy with funds from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law to companies in 12 states. The funding will go toward the creation of battery-grade materials including lithium, graphite and nickel.

Zimbabwe also decided to take advantage and try to boost its economy with some protectionism

Zimbabwe earlier this week stopped the export of raw lithium from its mines and said that it wants cash in on the value addition and also stop losing billions to foreign companies via mineral proceeds, news agencies reported.

On December 20, Zimbabwe’s ministry of Mines and Mining Development in a directive published under the nation’s Base Minerals Export Control Act said that the move was made to “ensure that the vision of the president to see the country becoming an upper-middle income economy has been realized.”

It's interesting to see how they have structured the subsidy and from the sounds of it few current car manufacturers would meet the requirements for the cashback. You can see that the US government have gotten tired of all the outsourcing and do not want to let other countries get a lead in this area any more, we can see China which used to be a relatively low level producer of goods has jumped into fairly high level manufacturing now. It makes sense that America would try to protect or even encourage certain industries because China is also getting an advantage from suppressing it's currency and using it's huge workforce to get cheaper production costs - if they weren't a communist country it would be less of a problem.

[Hydrogen]

Since electric vehicles are the future, there's a lot of attention for their development, and a battery is currently the most important part of the vehicle, because we still have problems with storing large amounts of electrical energy.

The US is making a lot of moves for helping domestic manufacturers, which worries its allies

The big idea is that a U.S. consumer can claim back $7,500 of the value of an electric car from their tax bill. But to qualify for that credit, the car needs to be assembled in North America and contain a battery with a certain percentage of the metals mined or recycled in the U.S., Canada or Mexico. Those rules become more strict over time, giving American producers time to prepar

President Joe Biden announced $2.8 billion in grants for 20 companies to produce batteries for electric vehicles in the United States.

The grants are being allocated through the Department of Energy with funds from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law to companies in 12 states. The funding will go toward the creation of battery-grade materials including lithium, graphite and nickel.

Zimbabwe also decided to take advantage and try to boost its economy with some protectionism

Zimbabwe earlier this week stopped the export of raw lithium from its mines and said that it wants cash in on the value addition and also stop losing billions to foreign companies via mineral proceeds, news agencies reported.

On December 20, Zimbabwe’s ministry of Mines and Mining Development in a directive published under the nation’s Base Minerals Export Control Act said that the move was made to “ensure that the vision of the president to see the country becoming an upper-middle income economy has been realized.”

It is very strange but I don't remember africans mentioning themselves being on the losing end of trade agreements, until italy's prime minister Giorgia Meloni began openly acknowledging it.

High cost of fossil fuels, should translate to elevated shipping and transportation costs. Which incentivizes everyone to manufacture and produce locally, as shipping and transport costs become untenable. Its a decline of globalization and global markets, which should naturally be expected.

Many of africa's industries revolve around human labor mining, shipbreaking, strip mining and markets which rely upon low labor and low fossil fuel prices to carry exports. Removing low fossil fuel prices could result in decreased demand for exports, which could have castastrophic results. Although of course, this doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Markets could naturally shift and restructure to fill the gap. Although it could take time.

[stompix]

Most people don't spend 100k EUR on a car. 99% of users will want something cheaper, and cheap doesn't go with electric. For instance, one of the most popular cars in Europe VW Golf starts at 30k EUR, but it's electric crossover version, the ID.4 starts at 46k.
To give you a perspective, you're spending so much money to upgrade your Golf to silent running, that for the same money you could get a new Arteon, their most luxurious model, but with a traditional engine.

The ID.4 is not the equivalent of the Golf as it's larger than both the Golf Variant and Tiguan, the Arteon is not luxury but a simple Passat CC, with 400k registered Porsche cars in Germany and with 16% of the sales going into the luxury and premium Sedan and SUV sales I think there are enough buyers, there is a 4k bonus for over 40k and 9k for under, even at the consumer rates for kwh so no charging stations, electric versus gas still getting 8k before 100k km at current rates for both petrol and electricity in Germany for the models mentioned. Did I get them all?

So for cheap and used cars yes, gasoline is way cheaper, for a mid-size the cost will be recovered somewhere between 100k and 150k km and for luxury it starts making less sense in terms of $.

These are their predictions.
Remember how similar people were saying that Bitcoin would die and go to 0 back in 2013? The same people were predicting the Internet would never be big and people wouldn't need to have computers at home.

Well, right now you're the one defending the regular mail and thinking email won't catch on.

People don't want this to happen though because in simplest terms electric cars suck.
Have you heard of those new Mercedes cars? Their new hybrid 63S doesn't allow you to start in electric mode, you first have to start the combustion engine and then switch to electric and its battery allows you to drive for less than 10km before you run out of power. It's a joke

All AMG hybrids have 4 start-up modes, you can safely drive with full electric in electric or start with comfort mode, but if you want the performance of course for god sake you need to turn the ICE on, it's a hybrid, it has a Biturbo V8 600hp+ engine, how can you get performance with the auxiliary in a hybrid?

[bitgolden]

1.  Expensive compared to just about every other car.

2.  Shorter range then a conventional gas or diesel.

3.  Replacement (gas tank=battery) is harder and more expensive compared to conventional gas or diesel.

4.  Cold weather makes the range problem Much worse. (like die in your car worse if you haven't planned for that emergency)

5.  Simply Not convenient compared to gasoline or diesel filling.  (takes too much time)

6.  Unless the power source is hydro electric, solar or, nuclear its Not greener then hydrocarbons.  Since you are burning the hydrocarbons in a extra step or 5 instead of burning it directly.

7.  Use of the Heater option during cold weather will reduce range (refer to 4)

Some of them are legit concerns and not only they are just concerns but they are not addressed or even tried to be fixed neither. Like yeah it's expensive but instead of paying a lot for gas, you get near free electricity from solar if you have it, so just have solar panels at the top of your house and use your car to go somewhere and then when get home you charge it for free, simple solution and the difference is small enough to pass if you use the same car for a few years.

It is not at all and that is not even looked at right now, hence an issue I am sure will not be fixed anytime soon. There are issues we need to try to solve, even if we do not have solutions now, we should at least look for one instead of ignoring it.

[Dickiy]

I think electric cars will move farther if they use an electric generator to charge the battery from motion energy.
such as electrical energy - motion energy, motion energy - electrical energy, and can rotate continuously. the position here must be two batteries to be used as a backup, but yes this must be tried first and be careful so that it is easier and automatic. So you can charge the battery while your car wheels are still rattling and your journey will be farther.

Indeed it becomes very problematic if we are far from refueling, especially if we are in the middle of a desert road, certainly not a good thing, because refueling for electric cars is not as easily accessible as other common refueling that many retailers have. in public.
Regarding the financing of making, electricity in a country, and its impact is the thing that gets the most attention, considering that the consumption of electricity and batteries is certainly far from what was imagined.

That's an interesting opinion, but from what I have learned in school, that's not efficient, at least with the current technologies. Normally, you have one motor to move your car. But since you need a generator to convert kinetic energy into potential energy, you have to install additional motor. Then, using two motors will consume more energy from your battery and the goal to get more efficient battery can't be achieved.

My point is that we install a simple power generator a dynamo that utilizes rotating car wheels, such as hydro and wind power plants that use an AC magnetic generator. such a generator requires no other source of power except the movement of the wheels, and is relatively small in size so it does not take up much space.
so I don't mean a generator that requires power (fossil fuel/electricity) but a simple magnetic generator that only requires motion power to get electricity.
Yes, even so, I haven't tested it yet due to the limited facilities to do it, which maybe if it's been tested we can simplify it so that it's more effective for electric vehicles so it doesn't consume a lot of electricity.

[coolcoinz]

The ID.4 is not the equivalent of the Golf as it's larger than both the Golf Variant and Tiguan,

The smaller, ID.3 costs only 2k less in the cheapest version, so it doesn't really change much if you want to compare sizes. ID.3 costs 44k and it's almost exactly the same size as Golf. You could have the Arteon for 1k EUR more.

the Arteon is not luxury but a simple Passat CC,

At this time it's the closest thing to a limousine that VW offers. It's also made to be better equipped and more comfortable than the old CC.
I used it to compare with the golf and and an electric car of similar size from the same manufacturer. It's obviously better to pay for more space, better looks, some useful features, than throw the same money into a silent running mode from a battery.

with 400k registered Porsche cars in Germany and with 16% of the sales going into the luxury and premium Sedan and SUV sales I think there are enough buyers, there is a 4k bonus for over 40k and 9k for under, even at the consumer rates for kwh so no charging stations, electric versus gas still getting 8k before 100k km at current rates for both petrol and electricity in Germany for the models mentioned. Did I get them all?
So for cheap and used cars yes, gasoline is way cheaper, for a mid-size the cost will be recovered somewhere between 100k and 150k km and for luxury it starts making less sense in terms of $.
To be honest it doesn't even make sense for premium car users.

How many of these Porsche users are people who actually love the sound of the engine and would never sell their car to buy a new electric substitute? People who buy a car like that do it for various reasons, but being eco-friendly is not one of them.

So, according to you, it makes sense for that 16% people who buy luxury cars to switch to electric and throw some of their precious time out of the window. Electric cars are basically for people who drive up to an hour to work and back and then leave the car for charging in a warm garage. You need to drive 300km in negative temperature? Stay in line to the charger and then have a nap while the car is doing its thing, or carry a generator in the trunk.


Have you ever seen electric cars at an interstate? If yes  then you've probably seen them go below the speed limit, because that's what you have to do to get the mileage. Whatever the manufacturer tells you to be the maximum is at the average speed of 80km/h.

Well, right now you're the one defending the regular mail and thinking email won't catch on.

Here's the thing, you never know if the thing advertised as "better" ends up being the successor.
Electric engines are not the only ones in the race. They could win, but definitely not with the current batteries that they're using. Their cost, disposal, their fire hazard... those are issues, but the biggest ones are their capacity and lifetime. Check out how many electric cars without batteries you can find for sale, specially the cheap ones like Renaults. After 5 years their batteries hold very little charge and cost of replacing them is a third of the price of a new car.

All AMG hybrids have 4 start-up modes, you can safely drive with full electric in electric or start with comfort mode, but if you want the performance of course for god sake you need to turn the ICE on, it's a hybrid, it has a Biturbo V8 600hp+ engine, how can you get performance with the auxiliary in a hybrid?

You're saying it because you drove it, or read about it on the manufacturer's site?
There are 4 modes, but the "electric" is disabled until you warm up the car.
You can only start it in 3/4 modes and the electric becomes available after a while, so it doesn't allow you to drive straight out of the parking spot or your garage in electric mode.

The hybrid engine in this model is made only to satisfy the emission standards. It has no real purpose and most people won't even use it. It's a fine example of how fake the industry has become.

[jayce]

My point is that we install a simple power generator a dynamo that utilizes rotating car wheels, such as hydro and wind power plants that use an AC magnetic generator. such a generator requires no other source of power except the movement of the wheels, and is relatively small in size so it does not take up much space.
so I don't mean a generator that requires power (fossil fuel/electricity) but a simple magnetic generator that only requires motion power to get electricity.
Yes, even so, I haven't tested it yet due to the limited facilities to do it, which maybe if it's been tested we can simplify it so that it's more effective for electric vehicles so it doesn't consume a lot of electricity.

I get your point, but even if we install the magnetic generator that not require power, its weight in the car still affect the power consumption. The heavier the car, the more power needed. Beside that, this article says that normally an electric car consumes approx 0.20 kWh/km, and theoretically, you can generate that amount of power with 1m diameter turbine with 100% efficiency rate. But you must need 1m3 per second water stream to generate that power. I don't think we can find any stream with that big flow rate continuously while we are driving on the road.

However, while having a simple power generator installed in the car sounds not possible with current technology, some researchers using hydro-power generator for recharge station of electric car. You just need a spot where you could place the power generator and find suitable resources with enough stream to move the turbine. I like your idea but installing the additional generator into your car isn't efficient, even not applicable, at least for now.

[franky1]

Most people don't spend 100k EUR on a car. 99% of users will want something cheaper, and cheap doesn't go with electric. For instance, one of the most popular cars in Europe VW Golf starts at 30k EUR, but it's electric crossover version, the ID.4 starts at 46k.

To give you a perspective, you're spending so much money to upgrade your Golf to silent running, that for the same money you could get a new Arteon, their most luxurious model, but with a traditional engine.
Is it worth going electric? Not yet, not at these prices.

the decision becomes.. how much are you paying to move the vehicle
euro to pound for my math
€30k fuel car €46k ev car
£26.5 fuel car  £40.6k ev car (difference £14.1k)

i personally do not have a EV car. but i do have fun town touring on a EV bike
it costs me £0.10 to charge my EV bike to do 20miles (0.005 per mile)
any way. using numbers i know
fuel car is about £80 to do 300miles which is about £0.266 a mile
EV car is about £14 to do 300miles which is about to do £0.05 a mile

if doing 5500miles a year(15miles a day)
on a car for 4 years average(21,000miles)
fuel: £5600
ev: £1050

saving is on 4 year use £4550 or roughly 12 years and a couple months to break even with £14.1k
it only becomes economical if you are going to use that car to do 65,000 miles break even
or if the price changes again on fuel from the fuel base cost of my calculation of £1.45 a litre

[adaseb]

Some guy on the Chevy bolt forum said that it cost him $17K to replace the battery on his bolt back in 2018. Now the cost is slower to $19K according to repair pal.

Looking at MSRP values the 2018 bolt sold for $37.5K. Most likely for much less due to government incentives. So let’s say it sold for $35K.

Now a few years later, will you pay $20K for a new battery. Most likely the market value of a bolt is in the $20K range anyways. So the car becomes worthless when battery goes out.

[so98nn]

How far we are going to go with this thing? The whole electric vehicle thing is getting developed at very fast rate but the technology is really old. I mean considering the timeline that we are in and pace of demand that’s rising over the period of time is crazy and all they are relying on is the same old lithium batteries.

If anyway they are putting so much money in the research and development of new technologies then they should invest more into new type of batteries.

Smaller in size and high throughput that’s what they really need in the long run.

If they stop chasing the old tech and improve the batteries the fight may be over soon.

[stompix]

You're saying it because you drove it, or read about it on the manufacturer's site?
There are 4 modes, but the "electric" is disabled until you warm up the car.
You can only start it in 3/4 modes and the electric becomes available after a while, so it doesn't allow you to drive straight out of the parking spot or your garage in electric mode.

You're saying that because you drove it or you read on the manufacturer's website? 
The company that provides transport for us, airport shuttles, events, stuff like that has had for years two Sx50 hybrids, I know for sure those have 4 drive modes and I know for sure it can start and drive in full electric. Now, and this is where it becomes funny if I would have owned one or I would have gone to the manufacturer's website I would have known there are 7 drives modes out of which 6 are for driving from zero and one adaptive mode, so how did you get the 3 out 4? You realize at this point that you criticizing this model with your current knowledge is quite silly, right?

How many of these Porsche users are people who actually love the sound of the engine and would never sell their car to buy a new electric substitute? People who buy a car like that do it for various reasons, but being eco-friendly is not one of them.

Probably far fewer than you expect, noise is nothing without torque
It's design, speed, handling, and not the noise that sells that car!

I used it to compare with the golf and and an electric car of similar size from the same manufacturer. It's obviously better to pay for more space, better looks, some useful features, than throw the same money into a silent running mode from a battery.

No, you didn't! Don't you realize how biased you are when you compare the id4 with a far small car when looking at the price and then you say it's better to have more room and more space when comparing it with a larger model that is, surprise not that large at all? Common, seriously I expected you to be far more objective on this!



You stick to the arbitrary things while ignoring the main thing that started this discussion and as much as it pains me to admit here I have to agree with franky1, you obviously and purposely toss aside numbers, ignore the running cost, ignore the average distance travel ignore everything bar the starting price, and this is no way of comparing two cars when you don't have an unlimited budget while stressing the decision is aimed at for saving money!

[o48o]

-cut-
4. New technologies on an industrial scale are on the way - supercapacitors, and batteries based on more accessible, simple and environmentally friendly materials.
-cut-

Yes, eventually. But to my knowledge these alternatives that scientists have been exploring are very much still in experimental or research state. And as electric vechiles are a rapidly growing industry, investors would be foolish not to put money for research of cheaper and more environmental battery.

And yes, these are coming, they could be sodium, magnesium, aluminium or god knows what based tech, but for now we are still heavily developing lithium based battery innovations. And new kind of tech takes time from research to manufacturing. European Green Deal could speed things up but i don't see it showing on the industustry very soon.

[Doan9269]

With some recent inventions whereby there have been use of electric cars and solar panels cars that will ease the environmental effect of the electric car batteries with the effect of lithium in the environment making life difficult for land and aquatic lives, sourcing for alternative to these use of electric car battery could bringbin more advantages than as expected with the former, andbthe risk to economic growth and supply of batteries for transportation will be reduced since there's abundance with the renewable source for cars to use in transportation than fully dependent on electric car batteries.

[coolcoinz]

the decision becomes.. how much are you paying to move the vehicle
euro to pound for my math
€30k fuel car €46k ev car
£26.5 fuel car  £40.6k ev car (difference £14.1k)

i personally do not have a EV car. but i do have fun town touring on a EV bike
it costs me £0.10 to charge my EV bike to do 20miles (0.005 per mile)
any way. using numbers i know
fuel car is about £80 to do 300miles which is about £0.266 a mile
EV car is about £14 to do 300miles which is about to do £0.05 a mile

if doing 5500miles a year(15miles a day)
on a car for 4 years average(21,000miles)
fuel: £5600
ev: £1050

saving is on 4 year use £4550 or roughly 12 years and a couple months to break even with £14.1k
it only becomes economical if you are going to use that car to do 65,000 miles break even
or if the price changes again on fuel from the fuel base cost of my calculation of £1.45 a litre

I completely support electric bikes, especially that I had the pleasure to ride one that could easily allow me to go over 30km with partial support from the engine.
Pros of an EV bike:
Fine range, not many people go on bike trips that require more than 40km range in one go.
Great utility, allows you to go uphill for 15 min straight without going into cardiac arrest.
Cons:
Price, but they aren't that expensive.
Weight

With Electric cars IMHO there's much more cons.

The main problem in your calculation of 12 years is that the EV won't make it that long without a new battery. If after 8 years you have to add 5k EUR for a new battery the ROI gets much longer.

Some guy on the Chevy bolt forum said that it cost him $17K to replace the battery on his bolt back in 2018. Now the cost is slower to $19K according to repair pal.

Looking at MSRP values the 2018 bolt sold for $37.5K. Most likely for much less due to government incentives. So let’s say it sold for $35K.

Now a few years later, will you pay $20K for a new battery. Most likely the market value of a bolt is in the $20K range anyways. So the car becomes worthless when battery goes out.

This is exactly what I'm trying to point at. The same problem the Renault Zoe users have. The battery lasts up to 8 years or 160k Km.
you're paying 30k EUR for a car that's going to depreciate about 80% in value over the next 10 years and most likely is going to get scrapped after that because nobody will pay 10k+ to get a new battery for a car that's worth maybe 5k without it...

You're saying that because you drove it or you read on the manufacturer's website?  
The company that provides transport for us, airport shuttles, events, stuff like that has had for years two Sx50 hybrids, I know for sure those have 4 drive modes and I know for sure it can start and drive in full electric. Now, and this is where it becomes funny if I would have owned one or I would have gone to the manufacturer's website I would have known there are 7 drives modes out of which 6 are for driving from zero and one adaptive mode, so how did you get the 3 out 4? You realize at this point that you criticizing this model with your current knowledge is quite silly, right?

So, that means you haven't driven one, haven't been driven in one and are trying to argue with me when I tell you that Electric mode is unavailable when the car is cold. I'm sure it's the way I say it is, but it seems we have to agree to disagree. I don't have one at hand to record you a video.

Probably far fewer than you expect, noise is nothing without torque
It's design, speed, handling, and not the noise that sells that car!

"Probably" is a key word here.

No, you didn't! Don't you realize how biased you are when you compare the id4 with a far small car when looking at the price and then you say it's better to have more room and more space when comparing it with a larger model that is, surprise not that large at all? Common, seriously I expected you to be far more objective on this!

That's why I said you can compare ID.3 if you want. It's still much more expensive than the golf.

You stick to the arbitrary things while ignoring the main thing that started this discussion and as much as it pains me to admit here I have to agree with franky1, you obviously and purposely toss aside numbers, ignore the running cost, ignore the average distance travel ignore everything bar the starting price, and this is no way of comparing two cars when you don't have an unlimited budget while stressing the decision is aimed at for saving money!

Well, It doesn't pain me when I have to agree with someone.

Here's a running cost for you:

With current prices of 84 cents per kWh, charging the car to travel 100 kilometres would cost about €12.60, the paper said. And that makes electric cars, in many cases, more expensive to run than petrol ones.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2022/12/tesla-owner-charges-car-by-linking-it-up-to-a-street-lamp/

[stompix]

I'm sure it's the way I say it is, but it seems we have to agree to disagree. I don't have one at hand to record you a video.

Make sure in that video to record how many modes there are on that car because if it shows 7 I might ask again why did you say there are 4 yesterday 
Common, you did it only to contradict me without knowing yourself how that car really looks, you fell for it, man up, and be done with it.

That's why I said you can compare ID.3 if you want. It's still much more expensive than the golf.

You started with the id4, get over with the id4, and don't switch cars as you fit just to try and avoid numbers.
Let's do the math for both cars now with the current! prices, current insurance, current tax, and current government bonus and see how this ends in 4 years of usage, are you up to it? Of course not, cause if you were you would have contradicted franky1 numbers!

Here's a running cost for you:
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2022/12/tesla-owner-charges-car-by-linking-it-up-to-a-street-lamp/

Bruh, let me tell you this straight, this is bullshit and you know it too well.
You went for a sensationalist article without bothering to look at real prices!
Here is an example of a contract for exactly the town of Oud-Beijerland, with numbers that are half of what the article claims.



Just put a big banner in 100m red fonts with "electric cars suck" next time and be done with it, don't try to give the impression you're willing to debate or discuss numbers since you obviously don't want, you hate them and there is no way for anyone to convince you of anything else. So after the 3 out of 4 and 80cents/kwh I'm not trying it either anymore.

[chrisculanag]

Countries with high ranking lithium miners are sure to be restricted. Because they are the only ones who have the ability to provide the needs of other countries. There will be price controls and even taxes in the user countries. Many countries will improve there supply to get consumers in different countries.

Let's just watch for the countries that will come out to introduce this kind of trend like the U.S and Zimbabwe.

[tjtonmoy]

It might be strange to many people but I have never seen or touched an electric vehicle except on media devices. Sometimes I wonder how my continent would cope with electric vehicles due to the diverse economic and political challenges it is battling. My prediction is that petrol vehicles would still be available for more decades at least in developing nations.

I was also having the same thoughts. Many countries will not be able to implement the electric cars for their people. One major factor that can impact the adoption of EVs is the availability and cost of electricity. In some developing countries, the electricity grid may not be as reliable or widespread as it is in developed countries, which can make it difficult for people to charge their EVs. The cost of electricity in some developing countries may be higher than it is in developed countries, which can make it more expensive to operate an EV.
But only time will tell.

[franky1]

the decision becomes.. how much are you paying to move the vehicle
euro to pound for my math
€30k fuel car €46k ev car
£26.5 fuel car  £40.6k ev car (difference £14.1k)

i personally do not have a EV car. but i do have fun town touring on a EV bike
it costs me £0.10 to charge my EV bike to do 20miles (0.005 per mile)
any way. using numbers i know
fuel car is about £80 to do 300miles which is about £0.266 a mile
EV car is about £14 to do 300miles which is about to do £0.05 a mile

if doing 5500miles a year(15miles a day)
on a car for 4 years average(21,000miles)
fuel: £5600
ev: £1050

saving is on 4 year use £4550 or roughly 12 years and a couple months to break even with £14.1k
it only becomes economical if you are going to use that car to do 65,000 miles break even
or if the price changes again on fuel from the fuel base cost of my calculation of £1.45 a litre

I completely support electric bikes, especially that I had the pleasure to ride one that could easily allow me to go over 30km with partial support from the engine.
Pros of an EV bike:
Fine range, not many people go on bike trips that require more than 40km range in one go.
Great utility, allows you to go uphill for 15 min straight without going into cardiac arrest.
Cons:
Price, but they aren't that expensive.
Weight

With Electric cars IMHO there's much more cons.

The main problem in your calculation of 12 years is that the EV won't make it that long without a new battery. If after 8 years you have to add 5k EUR for a new battery the ROI gets much longer.

This is exactly what I'm trying to point at. The same problem the Renault Zoe users have. The battery lasts up to 8 years or 160k Km.
you're paying 30k EUR for a car that's going to depreciate about 80% in value over the next 10 years and most likely is going to get scrapped after that because nobody will pay 10k+ to get a new battery for a car that's worth maybe 5k without it...

the 8 years 160km is based on a rough estimate of a 500 recharges, each done every 5-6 days
but thats presenting that a car does 50miles a day to use up its 300mile charge to then need to recharge

yes expect a battery could pop after 8 years but realise.. thats the minimum based on data math of excessive use compared to average. in other words its a safe bet

much like products that last 3 years but quoted as having a 2 year warranty of expectant lifespan

dont base real life span based on the safe bet of warranty lengths
batteries can handle 1000 recharges+ but the safebet was ~500 recharges based on a ~50km a day utility

the 8 year WARRANTY is not the same as saying expected lifespan

[pixie85]

The discussion looks heated.

I wouldn't choose an electric car.

Some of you said that they're cheaper in refueling which makes you recoup some of the cost over time but I prefer to hold money in my pocket.
I'd rather spend 10 thousand dollars on a car than 20 with the promise that I'll get 10 back in the next few years.

My friend has an electric car, a Nissan. It directs you to a nearest station for charging. You come there and both spots are taken and have to go somewhere else or wait god knows how long.

You can't leave your car overnight at a charging station. I live in an apartment building with outside parking lot and can't charge my car from my outlet. I'd have to go to a charging spot every day and wait for it to finish before parking my car for the night.

[STT]

The wider point people might be missing in terms of utility to EV is that its very easily a multi purpose vehicle.   So if the market for electric in general is illiquid at any point, it could be useful for every house to have a battery which is something contained in the EV that is not true of any other product around a normal household.    
   EV could be used as arbitrage daily between peak pricing to electric free markets and the off peak pricing.  Wind power for example is either used or wasted, to store that energy is a premium activity.   So too the same can be said of hydro power, only a few types of power station can provide instant power on demand for peak or sudden spikes in demand.
   The modern alternative to centralized production of electricity by power stations might be a nation distributed in its capacity to supply power.  Modern housing can feed power from solar panels back into the grid, this is acknowledged whats missing is that EV also can provide power to grid and this is known and available tech however its not yet common.   A rising trend can justify and back the increasing usage of EV imo, if it represents any kind of improvement to efficiency or liquidity.

[adaseb]

There is a guy on YouTube called Rich rebuilds who buys salvaged Tesla’s and tries fixing them up. He is a pretty funny guy however he says that Tesla can sell you a refurbished battery for a model 3 for $22K. That doesn’t include installation.

Now how much is a Tesla, especially 2017-2018 around $35K at inflated car prices. So imagine buying one at $35k and then having the battery go bad and costing almost $25K to get it going again.

Most will just go to the salvage yard. Not worth fixing them when battery is dead. Unless you get the car for free.

[kro55]

It might be strange to many people but I have never seen or touched an electric vehicle except on media devices. Sometimes I wonder how my continent would cope with electric vehicles due to the diverse economic and political challenges it is battling. My prediction is that petrol vehicles would still be available for more decades at least in developing nations.

I was also having the same thoughts. Many countries will not be able to implement the electric cars for their people. One major factor that can impact the adoption of EVs is the availability and cost of electricity. In some developing countries, the electricity grid may not be as reliable or widespread as it is in developed countries, which can make it difficult for people to charge their EVs. The cost of electricity in some developing countries may be higher than it is in developed countries, which can make it more expensive to operate an EV.
But only time will tell.

That is not true, if you have ever used electrical appliances with rechargeable batteries, although our capacity is weaker than other devices, their energy consumption is much more economical, 1 kW of electricity is still cheap much more than a liter of gasoline. The problem that makes electric cars still not popular is that the price of each product is still very high, and not suitable for many people's pockets.

In the short term, using electric cars is very fuel efficient, but in the long run, I am concerned about environmental pollution because the disposal of expired batteries is a matter of concern.

[Nhazwrath]

Most people don't spend 100k EUR on a car. 99% of users will want something cheaper, and cheap doesn't go with electric. For instance, one of the most popular cars in Europe VW Golf starts at 30k EUR, but it's electric crossover version, the ID.4 starts at 46k.

To give you a perspective, you're spending so much money to upgrade your Golf to silent running, that for the same money you could get a new Arteon, their most luxurious model, but with a traditional engine.
Is it worth going electric? Not yet, not at these prices.

the decision becomes.. how much are you paying to move the vehicle
euro to pound for my math
€30k fuel car €46k ev car
£26.5 fuel car  £40.6k ev car (difference £14.1k)

i personally do not have a EV car. but i do have fun town touring on a EV bike
it costs me £0.10 to charge my EV bike to do 20miles (0.005 per mile)
any way. using numbers i know
fuel car is about £80 to do 300miles which is about £0.266 a mile
EV car is about £14 to do 300miles which is about to do £0.05 a mile

if doing 5500miles a year(15miles a day)
on a car for 4 years average(21,000miles)

fuel: £5600
ev: £1050

saving is on 4 year use £4550 or roughly 12 years and a couple months to break even with £14.1k
it only becomes economical if you are going to use that car to do 65,000 miles break even
or if the price changes again on fuel from the fuel base cost of my calculation of £1.45 a litre

Your battery will never last 12 years with current tech.  8 years is pushing it.   10k replacement   wheres the value again?

[justdimin]

I was also having the same thoughts. Many countries will not be able to implement the electric cars for their people. One major factor that can impact the adoption of EVs is the availability and cost of electricity. In some developing countries, the electricity grid may not be as reliable or widespread as it is in developed countries, which can make it difficult for people to charge their EVs. The cost of electricity in some developing countries may be higher than it is in developed countries, which can make it more expensive to operate an EV.
But only time will tell.

That is not true, if you have ever used electrical appliances with rechargeable batteries, although our capacity is weaker than other devices, their energy consumption is much more economical, 1 kW of electricity is still cheap much more than a liter of gasoline. The problem that makes electric cars still not popular is that the price of each product is still very high, and not suitable for many people's pockets.

In the short term, using electric cars is very fuel efficient, but in the long run, I am concerned about environmental pollution because the disposal of expired batteries is a matter of concern.

It is true that this will create a trouble, but even scarier thing is that if we do not care about it. Look at the plastics in our ocean, basically every fish you eat has a small amount of plastic in it, doesn't matter how microscopic it is there is some in them.

Because ocean is filled with plastic. Do we do something about it? This is hurting the world, and the world is heating up, there is a ton of pollution, are we doing something about it? No. So, it is not scary to think there is a trouble with battery waste, there is a scare about the fact that battery waste will not be cared about at all, and that is seriously scary and I do not know what will happen.

[kro55]

I was also having the same thoughts. Many countries will not be able to implement the electric cars for their people. One major factor that can impact the adoption of EVs is the availability and cost of electricity. In some developing countries, the electricity grid may not be as reliable or widespread as it is in developed countries, which can make it difficult for people to charge their EVs. The cost of electricity in some developing countries may be higher than it is in developed countries, which can make it more expensive to operate an EV.
But only time will tell.

That is not true, if you have ever used electrical appliances with rechargeable batteries, although our capacity is weaker than other devices, their energy consumption is much more economical, 1 kW of electricity is still cheap much more than a liter of gasoline. The problem that makes electric cars still not popular is that the price of each product is still very high, and not suitable for many people's pockets.

In the short term, using electric cars is very fuel efficient, but in the long run, I am concerned about environmental pollution because the disposal of expired batteries is a matter of concern.

It is true that this will create a trouble, but even scarier thing is that if we do not care about it. Look at the plastics in our ocean, basically every fish you eat has a small amount of plastic in it, doesn't matter how microscopic it is there is some in them.

Because ocean is filled with plastic. Do we do something about it? This is hurting the world, and the world is heating up, there is a ton of pollution, are we doing something about it? No. So, it is not scary to think there is a trouble with battery waste, there is a scare about the fact that battery waste will not be cared about at all, and that is seriously scary and I do not know what will happen.

The electric vehicle industry is very interesting at present, but if the governments of the major powers are really concerned about global warming, I believe that electric cars will soon be limited and cannot replace petrol cars. The use of gasoline still produces less waste than current battery-powered vehicles, IMO. This reminds me of the government blaming bitcoin for global warming without hearing them complain about this .

[fadhilz123]

Countries with high ranking lithium miners are sure to be restricted. Because they are the only ones who have the ability to provide the needs of other countries. There will be price controls and even taxes in the user countries. Many countries will improve there supply to get consumers in different countries.

Let's just watch for the countries that will come out to introduce this kind of trend like the U.S and Zimbabwe.

There are many countries now that have produced lithium, and I think the price issue will also vary greatly because the taxes in each country are not always the same. So it would be very natural if it could get special control from several parties so that the price can be very affordable for consumers who need it. Here are some lithium-producing countries that already have the best ratings according to investingnews.com sources

• Australia, Mine production: 55,000 MT
• Chile, Mine production: 26,000 MT
• China, Mine production: 14,000 MT
• Argentina, Mine production: 6,200 MT
• Brazil, Mine production: 1,500 MT
• Zimbabwe, Mine production: 1,200 MT
• Portugal, Mine production: 900 MT
• United States, Mine production: withheld

[YOSHIE]

Since electric vehicles are the future, there's a lot of attention for their development, and a battery is currently the most important part of the vehicle, because we still have problems with storing large amounts of electrical energy.

You are right, electric cars consume a lot of energy, I took the example of the 20th Summit, in 2022, all car facilities used to pick up or take state officials electric powered cars, 1000 more electric cars are in use, but only for a few days.

But there are interesting things that are being questioned by the public about the electric car, after the 20 Summit is over, if the car will be sold to the public.
Example:

The community also needs certainty about incentives such as taxes and increases in electricity power if they commit to switching from fuel-drinking vehicles to vehicles with rechargeable batteries. Because it cannot be denied, electric vehicles have been synonymous with "toys" for the rich.

As well as ease of spare parts and servicing. I myself have never seen a special electric vehicle repair shop. If this facility exists, motorists or car users can rest easy because they know where to go when their vehicle needs maintenance.

In this quote, it can be concluded that if the government imposes greater electricity bills on the public and there are no electric car parts, automatically with the people's economy which is currently screaming, I'm sure the electric car trade plan isn't channeled efficiently, what's more for people with a lower-class economy, it's clearly a nightmare for them.

[mindrust]

They should be fighting for oil because EV's definitely are not the future. Even Elon is dumping his Tesla shares because he realized that EV's are a dead end. The world's biggest car manufacturer Toyota has recently made a statement and said that the silent majority don't like EV's and still favoring ICE cars. As you know Toyota is not making EV's at the moment (and not planning to do so in the future) because they don't believe in it. They make hybrid cars but they still run on oil mostly.

I think I will buy a full ICE Toyota as my next car. Camry looks badass.

[darkangel11]

They should be fighting for oil because EV's definitely are not the future. Even Elon is dumping his Tesla shares because he realized that EV's are a dead end. The world's biggest car manufacturer Toyota has recently made a statement and said that the silent majority don't like EV's and still favoring ICE cars. As you know Toyota is not making EV's at the moment (and not planning to do so in the future) because they don't believe in it. They make hybrid cars but they still run on oil mostly.

I think I will buy a full ICE Toyota as my next car. Camry looks badass.

I feel you man. My friend is in love with the camry, but there's so many good looking cars out there right now that the competition is big.
There are some pretty nice electric car as well like KIA EV6GT which would probably be my choice if I had to go electric. Fortunately I don't.
As for ICE there's an interesting new very efficient engine made by Mazda called SkyactiveX.
Manufacturers also experiment with hydrogen cells and you can already buy like Toyota Mirai.
Don't forget about the new NA Corvette engine that isn't eco but makes 500hp and you can add a supercharger on top of it if that's not enough. I've seen some reviews and people love the car.

IMO ICE cars are not dead yet, at least as long as we have a choice in the matter.

[SirLancelot]

They should be fighting for oil because EV's definitely are not the future. Even Elon is dumping his Tesla shares because he realized that EV's are a dead end. The world's biggest car manufacturer Toyota has recently made a statement and said that the silent majority don't like EV's and still favoring ICE cars. As you know Toyota is not making EV's at the moment (and not planning to do so in the future) because they don't believe in it. They make hybrid cars but they still run on oil mostly.

I think I will buy a full ICE Toyota as my next car. Camry looks badass.

Huh? I think it was the opposite. People are trying to be more friendly now when it comes to the environment so they avoid anything which can harm to it like using oils in cars, this is why there are now electric cars like tesla who are slowly gaining a momentum. This was only expensive at the moment but I believe that other car manufacturers are going to join this trend and make a budget friendly versions of these cars.

It's reported that Elon sold some of his tesla shares but I think there are different reasons for that and not that this project is a failure and he wants to abandon it later on. Maybe it's just a strategy once again by Elon because you know, this guy is a master manipulator.

[tjtonmoy]

That is not true, if you have ever used electrical appliances with rechargeable batteries, although our capacity is weaker than other devices, their energy consumption is much more economical, 1 kW of electricity is still cheap much more than a liter of gasoline. The problem that makes electric cars still not popular is that the price of each product is still very high, and not suitable for many people's pockets.

In the short term, using electric cars is very fuel efficient, but in the long run, I am concerned about environmental pollution because the disposal of expired batteries is a matter of concern.

Price and availability is the main concern. Living in a 3rd world country, I have learned that already now. There are always shortage of power and the price you have to pay to get that is insane. You need to have enough power to provide for the whole country's need. We don't get that here.
I also don't have much knowledge on how much energy it costs to one time charge your EV, but considering the condition here, gas might be more cheap than electricity. And also we don't have road permission for electric vehicles. In the future, maybe. But for now we have to stick to the gas car, unfortunately.

[STT]

Elon is dumping his Tesla shares

Elon bought and promised others the good ownership of a company previously listed at over a trillion, thats alot of money for even the richest man which is why he must liquidate the shares.    He still owns alot of Tesla, more then most CEO I guess.
   In theory he can rebuy the shares as they just got alot cheaper, thats the ideal but sadly his twitter stake is not likely to release any spare capital any time soon I guess but in theory his sale of TSLA shares was entirely sensible; never own just one thing.

[kro55]

That is not true, if you have ever used electrical appliances with rechargeable batteries, although our capacity is weaker than other devices, their energy consumption is much more economical, 1 kW of electricity is still cheap much more than a liter of gasoline. The problem that makes electric cars still not popular is that the price of each product is still very high, and not suitable for many people's pockets.

In the short term, using electric cars is very fuel efficient, but in the long run, I am concerned about environmental pollution because the disposal of expired batteries is a matter of concern.

Price and availability is the main concern. Living in a 3rd world country, I have learned that already now. There are always shortage of power and the price you have to pay to get that is insane. You need to have enough power to provide for the whole country's need. We don't get that here.
I also don't have much knowledge on how much energy it costs to one time charge your EV, but considering the condition here, gas might be more cheap than electricity. And also we don't have road permission for electric vehicles. In the future, maybe. But for now we have to stick to the gas car, unfortunately.

Gasoline is cheaper than electricity?, if this were my country, it would be a Guinness record. In my hometown, gasoline is 7 times more expensive than electricity and there is very little shortage of electricity, even in the dry season. And in the past few years, in my locality, the use of solar panels has become popular, so in the hot season, there may be an excess of electricity. It can be said that our living area is different. Gasoline here is an expensive commodity, so people tend to switch to electric cars.

[Moneyprism]

it seems that countries in the world are starting to be very protective of their lithium,, considering that if this is not done then private companies will use it to monopolize lithium resources and use it as they like and in the end the lithium source country gets nothing

[sana54210]

it seems that countries in the world are starting to be very protective of their lithium,, considering that if this is not done then private companies will use it to monopolize lithium resources and use it as they like and in the end the lithium source country gets nothing

That kind of situation may not last for long as new improved version of electric car batteries is in development but for next 10 years we may end up using lithium based batteries only which means corporates will try to milk the maximum in-between time periods. I read the new development on electric vehicle batteries may bring alternatives to lithium based batteries and with up to 100 years of life time.

When safer atom based electricity generation will be combined with advanced batteries, I guess the world economy will enter into a new dimension and will root for stable economy by lowering the production costs everywhere.

[franky1]

My friend has an electric car, a Nissan. It directs you to a nearest station for charging. You come there and both spots are taken and have to go somewhere else or wait god knows how long.

here in the UK they are not attempting a "fuel station" concept. they are instead just having charging points at supermarkets. that way while in a supermarket doing weekly shop (usually you waste 40 minutes deciding which meat, veg and desert you want for the week) you are also charging your car in that 40 minutes, which with a "super fast charger" completes a 80%+ in 20-30 minutes. thus gives you enough charge for 240+ miles per supermarket visit, whilst not feeling like you are just aimlessly wait. due to you doing other tasks for the week during that time

[tjtonmoy]

Gasoline is cheaper than electricity?, if this were my country, it would be a Guinness record. In my hometown, gasoline is 7 times more expensive than electricity and there is very little shortage of electricity, even in the dry season. And in the past few years, in my locality, the use of solar panels has become popular, so in the hot season, there may be an excess of electricity. It can be said that our living area is different. Gasoline here is an expensive commodity, so people tend to switch to electric cars.

Done some research on this and here's what I have found.
It will cost you around $10.93 to fill the tank on a car to travel 39 miles
And to travel the same distance on EV will require around $5.83 worth of electricity.
[Data not 100% accurate because energy or gas consumption may vary for different models]
It is cheap compared to gas price, I have come to learn that now. But the question raises here. We are not getting enough power in our country. Load shedding is a major problem here. Few days back when the energy consumption was so high, the government would only supply limited amount of power and turn off the supply for 4–6 hours. If you own an EV here, and you have to face something like this, that won't be very pleasing, would it?
And also about importing cars from other country. Normally we have to pay 68% VAT on normal cars. Don't know how much the government will charge us to import EVs.

[franky1]

Done some research on this and here's what I have found.
It will cost you around $10.93 to fill the tank on a car to travel 39 miles
And to travel the same distance on EV will require around $5.83 worth of electricity.
[Data not 100% accurate because energy or gas consumption may vary for different models]

most EV cars represent roughly 75kwh/300mile(25kwh/100m)

so your math of 39 miles is 13% of the 300mile thus 9.75khw for 39mile

so if you are suggesting a cost of $5.83 for 9.75 KWH
then you are suggesting ~$0.60/kwh

where do you live ... hawaii? alaska? japan?

[KennyR]

My friend has an electric car, a Nissan. It directs you to a nearest station for charging. You come there and both spots are taken and have to go somewhere else or wait god knows how long.

here in the UK they are not attempting a "fuel station" concept. they are instead just having charging points at supermarkets. that way while in a supermarket doing weekly shop (usually you waste 40 minutes deciding which meat, veg and desert you want for the week) you are also charging your car in that 40 minutes, which with a "super fast charger" completes a 80%+ in 20-30 minutes. thus gives you enough charge for 240+ miles per supermarket visit, whilst not feeling like you are just aimlessly wait. due to you doing other tasks for the week during that time

This is really good plan, people never find difficulty waiting for the car to get charged. For the city commute these cars are really good. For long rides often we need to visit super Market and charging stations. In my country a person have attached a mini generator that runs on gasoline to power the car when he wasn't able to reach the power station within the power available. A charge station is completely powered by solar and this is really interesting. In someway electric cars are good, though the production cause heavy pollution.

[coupable]

Gasoline is cheaper than electricity?, if this were my country, it would be a Guinness record. In my hometown, gasoline is 7 times more expensive than electricity and there is very little shortage of electricity, even in the dry season. And in the past few years, in my locality, the use of solar panels has become popular, so in the hot season, there may be an excess of electricity. It can be said that our living area is different. Gasoline here is an expensive commodity, so people tend to switch to electric cars.

Done some research on this and here's what I have found.
It will cost you around $10.93 to fill the tank on a car to travel 39 miles
And to travel the same distance on EV will require around $5.83 worth of electricity.
[Data not 100% accurate because energy or gas consumption may vary for different models]
It is cheap compared to gas price, I have come to learn that now. But the question raises here. We are not getting enough power in our country. Load shedding is a major problem here. Few days back when the energy consumption was so high, the government would only supply limited amount of power and turn off the supply for 4–6 hours. If you own an EV here, and you have to face something like this, that won't be very pleasing, would it?
And also about importing cars from other country. Normally we have to pay 68% VAT on normal cars. Don't know how much the government will charge us to import EVs.

There will be no problem for most countries in providing electricity for electric cars unless the use of ordinary cars is completely abandoned. And here lies the real problem with the energy companies that have long-term contracts in those countries.
In countries that do not manufacture cars, there will be no demand for owning electric cars if their price will rise due to customs duties. Without forgetting the infrastructure this will require. I assure you, the energy companies will not allow this easily.

[STT]

There will need to be a structural change but electric cars arent in isolation by advancing, theres technology like solar panels also improving greatly in efficiency.   I agree on the way it alters the energy balance, alot of places have no oil but almost everywhere gets some sunlight or wind or hydro power possible so I dont think its too much but it will require investments to be deployed.   
  Most places should benefit, very obviously it will take away some power from the middle east and the reserves they have extracted there very cheaply for so long.   Most people who own a household can operate solar panels, in the end that will mean a benefit for those people to self provide this energy usage.   Also it encourages some management of that energy rather then import and buy endless reserves, its probably a good thing overall.

[franky1]

i dont see an issue in the "battery" sector. because desalinating water can become the "mine" to harvest lithium and sodium(the two types of electrolytes). and desalinating water is the next big sector to grow

however if you look at the numbers
a normal house of say 18 solar panels

rated at 400w/panel
with an average of just 5 good light hours a day(UK)
is going to use up 2 days of power generation just to charge a car for the week

if you calculate all cars at grocery stores charging points. shifting out 80% of 70kwh in 30mins (56kwh)
the amount of solar/hydro/nuclear/needed when all cars are electric will be more then the residential electric usage of today

when places like california are crying about risks of brownouts at current residential usage/capacity.. alot needs to be done in the realms of power production, before worrying about the car power storage

[tygeade]

My friend has an electric car, a Nissan. It directs you to a nearest station for charging. You come there and both spots are taken and have to go somewhere else or wait god knows how long.

here in the UK they are not attempting a "fuel station" concept. they are instead just having charging points at supermarkets. that way while in a supermarket doing weekly shop (usually you waste 40 minutes deciding which meat, veg and desert you want for the week) you are also charging your car in that 40 minutes, which with a "super fast charger" completes a 80%+ in 20-30 minutes. thus gives you enough charge for 240+ miles per supermarket visit, whilst not feeling like you are just aimlessly wait. due to you doing other tasks for the week during that time

This is actually quite genius way of doing it. We have one better in "some" places but unfortunately only on the high end places where if you live in a luxury residence or something, you have them in garage, meaning you could just go down, put your car in there, go up to your own home, wait for it to be over and then it notifies you when it's done and moves your car to side so someone else can come, and you take your car back to your park spot.

It's something awesome but unfortunately it's like those high end penthouse type of people who have it. Aside from that we have it in gas stations only, not in supermarkets but that sounds like the smartest way, definitely would use it 100% for sure.

[franky1]

new law for UK 2023

every new house build has to include a car charging port on the external wall of the house

so instead of a hole in the wall to have a gas pipe into the house there is no a hole for a electric cable going out of the house

but yes supermarket car parks is a way forward and see an end to "fuel stations"

trucking industry will have truckstops operating "pitstops" where they have batteries fortlifted off the truck cabin and swapped with a charged battery (like a F! racecar pitstop where they swap tires in fast pace time)

these pitstops will be at most distribution centres and "major truckstops"
thus trucks are not stuck having to wait for charging they just have batteries swapped out while they take a 30minute break or have their haul off/onloaded at a distribution centre

[chrisculanag]

Countries with high ranking lithium miners are sure to be restricted. Because they are the only ones who have the ability to provide the needs of other countries. There will be price controls and even taxes in the user countries. Many countries will improve there supply to get consumers in different countries.

Let's just watch for the countries that will come out to introduce this kind of trend like the U.S and Zimbabwe.

There are many countries now that have produced lithium, and I think the price issue will also vary greatly because the taxes in each country are not always the same. So it would be very natural if it could get special control from several parties so that the price can be very affordable for consumers who need it. Here are some lithium-producing countries that already have the best ratings according to investingnews.com sources

• Australia, Mine production: 55,000 MT
• Chile, Mine production: 26,000 MT
• China, Mine production: 14,000 MT
• Argentina, Mine production: 6,200 MT
• Brazil, Mine production: 1,500 MT
• Zimbabwe, Mine production: 1,200 MT
• Portugal, Mine production: 900 MT
• United States, Mine production: withheld

It is gratifying to think that many countries are already mining it and these countries are very good reputation , but as you say the taxes they impose are different which affect of its price. Most consumers of this product are also looking for a low price.

I think it's really right that every countries need talk about implementing the right price of lithium.