The fight over electric car batteries

[hatshepsut93]

Since electric vehicles are the future, there's a lot of attention for their development, and a battery is currently the most important part of the vehicle, because we still have problems with storing large amounts of electrical energy.

The US is making a lot of moves for helping domestic manufacturers, which worries its allies

The big idea is that a U.S. consumer can claim back $7,500 of the value of an electric car from their tax bill. But to qualify for that credit, the car needs to be assembled in North America and contain a battery with a certain percentage of the metals mined or recycled in the U.S., Canada or Mexico. Those rules become more strict over time, giving American producers time to prepar

President Joe Biden announced $2.8 billion in grants for 20 companies to produce batteries for electric vehicles in the United States.

The grants are being allocated through the Department of Energy with funds from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law to companies in 12 states. The funding will go toward the creation of battery-grade materials including lithium, graphite and nickel.

Zimbabwe also decided to take advantage and try to boost its economy with some protectionism

Zimbabwe earlier this week stopped the export of raw lithium from its mines and said that it wants cash in on the value addition and also stop losing billions to foreign companies via mineral proceeds, news agencies reported.

On December 20, Zimbabwe’s ministry of Mines and Mining Development in a directive published under the nation’s Base Minerals Export Control Act said that the move was made to “ensure that the vision of the president to see the country becoming an upper-middle income economy has been realized.”

[jackg]

I don't think there's a lack of lithium, it's an element that's damaging to the environment to extract iirc and it's quite hard to extract too. Given the circumstances export bans aren't that unreasonable, I think there'll be a better battery that comes out that can be mass produced better than lithium can (and I think that's the hope as some cars are said to have to travel 250,000 miles to have the same emissions of an electric car battery, but once the lithium is extracted and made into a battery, it can likely be well recycled - with renewables too).

I think there should be a crackdown on countries using third countries to avoid taxes too to send from one to another (I think this is done a lot with electronics and pharmaceuticals at least).

[davis196]

The US is making a lot of moves for helping domestic manufacturers, which worries its allies

Why would supporting your own industry "worry" your allies? I don't have any information about the governments in Canada, UK or the western European countries being worried because USA supports it's own Electric Vehicle industry. How did you come up with this theory?
Nobody is saying that electric vehicles are the future(maybe except the most fanatic EV supporters). Hydrogen fueled cars also have potential.
The future of the automobile transport would most likely be a mixture between electric vehicles and hydrogen vehicles. This might happen after several decades. Gasoline and diesel won't be dumped soon. The Li Ion batteries will have to be replaced by solid state batteries or graphene batteries.

[hatshepsut93]

Why would supporting your own industry "worry" your allies? I don't have any information about the governments in Canada, UK or the western European countries being worried because USA supports it's own Electric Vehicle industry. How did you come up with this theory?

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/08/25/us-tax-credits-for-electric-vehicles-called-discriminatory-sparking-talks-of-a-possible-tr

But manufacturers in Europe and South Korea, which sell millions of vehicles in the US, have threatened to lodge legal complaints with the World Trade Organization (WTO).

Earlier this month, when asked about the tax credit, European Commission spokeswoman Miriam Garcia Ferrer said, "we think that it's discriminatory, that it's discriminating against foreign producers in relation to US producers," calling the credits a "new, potential, trans-Atlantic trade barrier."

Nobody is saying that electric vehicles are the future(maybe except the most fanatic EV supporters). Hydrogen fueled cars also have potential.
The future of the automobile transport would most likely be a mixture between electric vehicles and hydrogen vehicles. This might happen after several decades. Gasoline and diesel won't be dumped soon.

The market thinks that it is. Look at the marketcap of Tesla, compare it with any combustion engine or hydrogen car. It seems like right now electric cars are much closer to wide adoption than hydrogen cars.

[dothebeats]

China is currently leading when it comes to the production of lithium-free (at least that's what they claim to be) battery packs for electric vehicles. The tech is certainly there, but it's way cheaper to slap lithium into a battery pack and expect it to run as flawless as it can be because the process and the design is already established. For sure, EV manufacturers are actively setting their R&D team on fire pressuring them to find a better alternative than lithium, but for now that will be the case and I think people should embrace it whether they like it or not.

But what I don't understand is, why are car manufacturers angry with companies and governments coming up with some solutions to a long-standing problem about vehicle emission and waste? Governments supporting the cause of EV may be concerning to petrol powered cars but not the environment in the long run—if they find a solution to replacing lithium with other minerals that is.

[Die_empty]

It might be strange to many people but I have never seen or touched an electric vehicle except on media devices. Sometimes I wonder how my continent would cope with electric vehicles due to the diverse economic and political challenges it is battling. My prediction is that petrol vehicles would still be available for more decades at least in developing nations.

Nations trying to protect their industries hurt other nations' economies because of the interconnectedness and interdependence created by globalization. Most nations depend on exports to other nations for economic survival. That is why it is important for trade ministers to always discuss and negotiate trade deals with other nations so that there should be a balanced trade relationship. This is because strict enforcement of economic nationalism policies might give rise to unhealthy competition and reckless trade embargoes between nations.

[adaseb]

Yes the biggest drawback to electric cars are the batteries. When they go bad it’s very costly to replace. Hence why the value drops when they reach a certain mileage. Even with smaller cars like the Chevy Bolt a battery replacement can be almost 5 figures or so.

This pretty will make many models disposable cars pretty much when they reach a certain mileage because without a proper battery they are worthless. With ice it’s different because you can almost buy an engine from another vehicle at a salvage auction, with batteries it doesn’t work like that.

[franky1]

when it comes to import bans
this is a environment decisions of transporting raw toxic chemicals.
the obvious solution is far cheaper and less paperwork/regulation
is to build the final product battery in the country the toxic material is mined in. and then ship the final SAFE product

this means US cant import lithium and make batteries. instead it has to import end-product batteries. or mine lithium domestically inside the US to make batteries inside the US

the added cost of US domestic mining and then domestic production of batteries is a large price hike of cost of batteries

[Kakmakr]

Well, Elon Musk made sure that he cashed in on the possible shortage that might occur with batteries for electric vehicles, by building that massive factory. "Musk said Tesla would have capacity to produce 100 gigawatt hours of 4680 batteries this year, enough to power about 1.3 million cars, and more than enough to supply production at factories in Texas and Germany." - Source : https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/musks-plan-tesla-built-batteries-has-an-acceleration-challenge-2022-03-11/

So that is Tesla's needs covered... but what about all the other EV manufacturers .... will China produce the rest of those? 

[franky1]

Well, Elon Musk made sure that he cashed in on the possible shortage that might occur with batteries for electric vehicles, by building that massive factory. "Musk said Tesla would have capacity to produce 100 gigawatt hours of 4680 batteries this year, enough to power about 1.3 million cars,

thats building the "top-up garage(pit-stops)" supply/power plants store.. where they store energy to then distribute at night or on non-windy days to the cars that need energy to charge up when their home solar system is not getting energy on a clear sunny day

but to build 1.3m cars needs a further 1.3m batteries

an average car has a 75kwh battery. allowing for a optimum 4mile/kwh
(300mile range per charge)

1.3m cars end up needing 975,00,000 KWH
97500000kwh
97500mwh
97.5gwh

in total tesla would need 200GW to supply its power banks(pitstop storage/home store/power plants) and the cars

needing 200GW PER YEAR to have cars and their recharge source storage. is a 1.3m car a year thing

there are currently 260m cars in just america meaning to convert all cars would take 200 years

[DrBeer]

Lithium, as the basis for batteries used in electric vehicles, will soon become a thing of the past.
Lithium, as a base for batteries, has several disadvantages.
1. This is the geography of deposits and production. In today's world, where resources become a "weapon" for economic terrorism - lithium, given its geography of deposits, is a very risky resource.
2. Production and processing technology is far from environmentally friendly
3. Today's capabilities of this technology will not satisfy the needs of the market.
4. New technologies on an industrial scale are on the way - supercapacitors, and batteries based on more accessible, simple and environmentally friendly materials.

Therefore, everyone understands who will have time to enter the market with a more technologically advanced and acceptable solution - "staking out for themselves", the huge "territories" of the global market for electric vehicles, behind which the future

[STT]

Sounds like Lithium would be similar to the case 'rare' earths are really just a big pain to consolidate and make usable not quite so rare as that.   Tanzania did something similar to Zimbabwe but with gold where they demand involvement in post process after mining, their argument with the worlds largest miner took years but with such profits available they can demand the exact conduct of business performed in their country.
   We are hearing lots of details but all of this adds up to one thing for me in that commodities will boom over the next decade and beyond, such is their vital part in the economy and demand far outweighs any currency standard or cost vs their elemental utility.

an average car has a 75kwh battery

That might be twice what they need, depends on the market but a light small car could be a third of that size and usable in a city easily.   We will see refinement and improvements to EV standards.

[franky1]

Sounds like Lithium would be similar to the case 'rare' earths are really just a big pain to consolidate and make usable not quite so rare as that.  

an average car has a 75kwh battery

That might be twice what they need, depends on the market but a light small car could be a third of that size and usable in a city easily.   We will see refinement and improvements to EV standards.

when new methods of "desalinating water"(the next "new industry") lithium will become more accessible from the brine left from desalination.
....
yes there will be more small "city cars" where people are not buying large SUV's but instead small cars like a VW bug(fiat500/nissan leaf) size, but thats just a cost efficient and lack of availability of larger vehicles

however add in the delivery trucks and parcel delivery vans which are starting to come out now. it average out the same requirement

[Nhazwrath]

The real problems of lithium batteries in cars have not been addressed here.

Here's my list

1.  Expensive compared to just about every other car.

2.  Shorter range then a conventional gas or diesel.

3.  Replacement (gas tank=battery) is harder and more expensive compared to conventional gas or diesel.

4.  Cold weather makes the range problem Much worse. (like die in your car worse if you haven't planned for that emergency)

5.  Simply Not convenient compared to gasoline or diesel filling.  (takes too much time)

6.  Unless the power source is hydro electric, solar or, nuclear its Not greener then hydrocarbons.  Since you are burning the hydrocarbons in a extra step or 5 instead of burning it directly.

7.  Use of the Heater option during cold weather will reduce range (refer to 4)

All in all to me theres nothing about the current electric cars other then(save the planet)(OMG auto pilot) that makes them attractive.

[stompix]

After the well-known Nigerian price, we had the Ugandan gold tycoon who discovered a gold mine with 100 times the concentration fo any gold mine and now we have the richest lithium mine in the Universe, that could produce

If the Arcadia Lithium Mine, located 308 kms south of the capital Harare, is deployed then the annual production will reach 2.5 million tons, bringing in $3 billion in exports.

2.5 million tons a year from he total reserves Zimbabwe has of 500 000t, so , it will operate probably only for two months and close down 

Also, Zimbabwe and protectionism, I remember how that went with their masterplan in agriculture, nationalize the evil white farmers' land, destroy the farms, render them useless, beg the farmers to return, beg them on all fours, beg them and pay more in damages and retributions than when nationalizing them, pretty well.

The real problems of lithium batteries in cars have not been addressed here.
Here's my list
1.  Expensive compared to just about every other car.

It depends a lot on the model, for the mini-cars definitely, if you go for the middle segment starts to dwindle as a Peugeot 2008 is 37k vs 26k, but for others like the luxury or large SUV the differences in percentage becomes rather insignificant or it becomes cheaper, the standard electric Q8 e-ton is 2000 euros lower than the gasoline basic.

 

[jayce]

The real problems of lithium batteries in cars have not been addressed here.

Here's my list

...
2.  Shorter range then a conventional gas or diesel.
...

I googled to know more about that and I found an article on https://motorandwheels.com/, it says;

Electric vehicles offer an average of around 306 miles on a single charge while gas-powered vehicles go a good 300 miles with a full tank. So, you get a bit more mileage on average by choosing an electric car.

I think the real issue is, the location of charging station for those electric cars, which the cost to build one is much higher and must have better security system than the gas station.

[FanEagle]

The problem with the electric cars is that they are causing a lot more trouble to world to produce than gas cars, and cover that difference back when you use it more. So when you buy one, because of the lithium mining that went into building the car, you just hurt the world a bit more than gas cars, but then you use electric instead of gas so you helped the nation, the more you use your electric car the more you help the world and eventually it becomes a climate profit instead of negative.

However, if you cold find recycling and so forth other options instead of mining it, then you will straight up just help the world and this is why this bill is so important.

[Dickiy]

The real problems of lithium batteries in cars have not been addressed here.

Here's my list

...
2.  Shorter range then a conventional gas or diesel.
...

I googled to know more about that and I found an article on https://motorandwheels.com/, it says;

Electric vehicles offer an average of around 306 miles on a single charge while gas-powered vehicles go a good 300 miles with a full tank. So, you get a bit more mileage on average by choosing an electric car.

I think the real issue is, the location of charging station for those electric cars, which the cost to build one is much higher and must have better security system than the gas station.

I think electric cars will move farther if they use an electric generator to charge the battery from motion energy.
such as electrical energy - motion energy, motion energy - electrical energy, and can rotate continuously. the position here must be two batteries to be used as a backup, but yes this must be tried first and be careful so that it is easier and automatic. So you can charge the battery while your car wheels are still rattling and your journey will be farther.

Indeed it becomes very problematic if we are far from refueling, especially if we are in the middle of a desert road, certainly not a good thing, because refueling for electric cars is not as easily accessible as other common refueling that many retailers have. in public.
Regarding the financing of making, electricity in a country, and its impact is the thing that gets the most attention, considering that the consumption of electricity and batteries is certainly far from what was imagined.

[uneng]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_lithium_production

Zimbabwe's lithium production is the sixth larger in the world and has been decreasing since 2019. They have a lot of influence, but I think they aren't a game changer on this market. Australia, Chile and China productions are much more expressive and decisive here if they want to introduce protective measures.

Australia is the key point here and last year they supplied half the world's lithium volume. If USA is going to adopt hostile economical measures against their allies on this matter, I guess they could wait for retaliation from an allied nation like Australia who will be the main prejudiced one here.

[coupable]

Even without new policies or regulations, electric vehicle sales will account for half of private passenger car sales globally in 2035.
The electrification of personal transportation vehicles is accelerating in ways that even the most ardent proponents of the trend could not have dreamed of just a few years ago. In many countries, governors intended to accelerate this change. And I think the US government has taken proactive measures in this regard.
This is not limited to the US government or just because of the high demand. In addition to technical problems, there is a strategic war against other countries that monopolize these industries. American and European start-up companies specialized in developing new batteries for electric cars are engaged in a fierce war using two abundant and cheap materials, sodium and sulfur, which may help them limit China's dominance in this market and mitigate an expected crisis in the near future.