Acquiring bitcoin with cash - what, why, how

[BlackHatCoiner]

This is a continuation of a previous discussion.

Just as trading bitcoin with anything, such as fiat via bank account, credit card, altcoins, gift cards etc., you can also trade bitcoin for cash, or as I like to say it: cash for cash. Unfortunately, as bitcoin isn't accepted everywhere, if you buy / earn in bitcoin, you'll most likely need to get back to fiat to make purchases you can't do otherwise.

Why?
Well, advantages, guys. Censorship resistance, in both sides! No PayPal can reverse the transaction. Also, more importantly, privacy. Believe me, you do need privacy if you're selling like $10k+. It also comes cheaper, because banks charge a lot.  

How to.
There are various ways to complete such trade. Each comes with its own tradeoffs. The following is my list, but please write below your suggestions, if any (or correct me).

• Bisq. Rational for the most popular, censorship and privacy respecting decentralized exchange to have such option. There are two options, in fact. Meeting with somebody face-to-face, and sending cash by mail. At the time of writing this, there are two of the former (both located in Birmingham, UK) which charge a 10% and 15% premium accordingly. For cash by mail, there are more reasonable prices, because there are more offers (5). Edit: Hodlhodl and AgoraDesk allow this too, see post #5.
• Bitcoin ATMs. I don't like this at all, because not only do they charge extraordinarily for even small amounts (~8%), but they also do KYC. Sorry, but you can't have both. I honestly don't understand why would one want that; it's better to complete KYC traditionally on a CEX, and then withdraw all of it with minimum fees. Both options provide zero anonymity, while the latter is cheap.
• Use forum(s). You're free to create a thread and request for such trade in the Currency exchange board, but it comes with disadvantages such as minimum liquidity and in-forum positive feedback likely required.
• Trade with people you already know.

I address to all of my dear forum users to take advantage of this minimum price competition, as long as it's possible in their places. Create an offer at Bisq, and just enjoy the absence of liquidity. Acquiring anonymously is priced more than $17,000. See how it goes. I myself will try it out if I need to withdraw some bitcoin.

What's your opinion about this? Do you think it might be needed now that most countries have been hostile with regulations?

[DaveF]

Don't forget about the exchanges listed at https://kycnot.me/
There are a few that allow for cash <-> BTC exchanges.

As for the BATMs yes the fees are high but they are getting multiple whammies on expenses. They have to pay for the back end upkeep, they usually have to pay rest to the store they are in, they have to have customer support people 24/7 for the calls and so on. Those are all fixed, if they have 0 customers for a couple of days, the people still want to get paid, the stores still collect rent and so on. The KYC is independent of all of that.

-Dave

[BlackHatCoiner]

Don't forget about the exchanges listed at https://kycnot.me/

Can you point me out the ones that do? The popular exchanges of that list I know don't, except Bisq.

They have to pay for the back end upkeep

The back end only costs a small fraction of what they charge. Most of this must come from the space they rent. And judging by the rentals nowadays, it's understandably expensive. Customer support is also an expense to consider, right.

Those are all fixed, if they have 0 customers for a couple of days, the people still want to get paid, the stores still collect rent and so on. The KYC is independent of all of that.

It's independent, but it was their only weapon to compete CEX, until recently. They don't have future now more. As I said, you can get the exact same service from a centralized exchange, and much cheaper. And I don't blame them. Regulators must be pushing them.

[jackg]

Does the UK still have crypto atms? I read they were being considered "unauthorised" but don't know if they were actually banned or if it was more something the fca put out in writing.

I did an exchange a few years ago for a cash deposit (back before localbitcoins required kyc) and it felt the safest way to do things - the buyer was very communicative throughout too and there was no meeting up or chance they'd used counterfeit funds.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Can you point me out the ones that do? The popular exchanges of that list I know don't, except Bisq.

Can't speak for any others, but the two that I use - HodlHodl and AgoraDesk - both do. On HodlHodl type "In Person" in to the "Payment Methods" search box, and on AgoraDesk you can choose either "Cash by mail" or "Cash (locally)" from the drop down menu.

I would add a fourth method to your list, which is "Trade with people you already know". Have you traded with the same person on Bisq a few dozen times with no issues? Have you made friends with people at bitcoin meetups? Do you have friends or colleagues from non-bitcoin walks of life who also use bitcoin? Having an established relationship and mutual trust with your trading partner can make the process so much easier, as well as potentially allowing you to bypass using a trading platform and escrow (therefore saving time and fees) provided you have enough trust with the other party.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Can't speak for any others, but that two that I use - HodlHodl and AgoraDesk - both do.

Added to OP.

I would add a fourth method to your list, which is "Trade with people you already know".

Ok, I added that too.

Have you traded with the same person on Bisq a few dozen times with no issues?

No. Each time I've used Bisq to trade is with Revolut, and each time I used different seller (as my payment history in Revolut is concerned). I don't talk to them at all, I just picked a trustworthy one (who was signed up there for like 2 years) and everything went smoothly.

If you've done, please answer me these questions of mine:

• If you don't have a reputation in the DAO, what kind of protection do you get in case such stranger wants to rip you off? Sure, he might look trustworthy, according to the offer table, but can you risk trading without Bisq?
• Do want to trade likewise to avoid the DAO fee?
• Can you become part of the DAO somehow, and set your own fee as arbitrator? Competition is what would lower the prices, and I'm sure part of high trade fees is small number of arbitrators.

Do you have friends or colleagues from non-bitcoin walks of life who also use bitcoin?

Yes, but I don't want to mess relationships with bitcoin trades, as I may bring them to an uncomfortable situation. No friend is ever going to charge me for like 10% above the average, while he should to, according to the market price. Nor would I want to sell bitcoin for cash whenever a friend requested it in the same price.  

[Rikafip]

Does the UK still have crypto atms? I read they were being considered "unauthorised" but don't know if they were actually banned or if it was more something the fca put out in writing.

According to Coin ATM Radar, there's at least 24 left so I guess some of the companies registered with FCA in order to continue the business.

Yes, but I don't want to mess relationships with bitcoin trades, as I may bring them to an uncomfortable situation. No friend is ever going to charge me for like 10% above the average, while he should to, according to the market price. Nor would I want to sell bitcoin for cash whenever a friend requested it in the same price. 

Did you have some bad experience in the past that makes you so reluctant to trade bitcoin with friends? I am asking because I am trading with friends for years and never really had any issues. We use Coingecko to determine the price and buy/sell according to that, without any fees of course. I even met with strangers to do transactions and again never had any issues whatsoever and every trade was done without the fee, whether I was buying or selling.

[o_e_l_e_o]

If you don't have a reputation in the DAO, what kind of protection do you get in case such stranger wants to rip you off? Sure, he might look trustworthy, according to the offer table, but can you risk trading without Bisq?

The point I'm making is that by this point it isn't a stranger. Without revealing too much for my own privacy reasons, there is another party I first met through a DEX and whom I have traded with probably 100+ times over many years, both in person and electronically. There comes a point where you have enough mutual trust to start trading small amounts without using the DEX and/or escrow, and then building from there. Obviously I would never suggest going off-DEX with a stranger.

Do want to trade likewise to avoid the DAO fee?

It was convenience rather than fees, but no one is going to say no to paying lower fees in any situation.

Can you become part of the DAO somehow, and set your own fee as arbitrator? Competition is what would lower the prices, and I'm sure part of high trade fees is small number of arbitrators.

I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you, but Bisq arbitrators do not set the fees, they simply moderate any disputes.

[DaveF]

Don't forget about the exchanges listed at https://kycnot.me/

Can you point me out the ones that do? The popular exchanges of that list I know don't, except Bisq.

In addition to the ones o_e_l_e_o mentioned
I know a few people who have used: peachbitdoin  https://kycnot.me/exchange/peachbitcoin   /   https://peachbitcoin.com/

PERSONALLY, since it's mobile based although it does avoid KYC it is not really anonymous unless you are using a disposable smartphone.
Not a lot of offers but it is yet another option.

They have to pay for the back end upkeep

The back end only costs a small fraction of what they charge. Most of this must come from the space they rent. And judging by the rentals nowadays, it's understandably expensive. Customer support is also an expense to consider, right.

Those are all fixed, if they have 0 customers for a couple of days, the people still want to get paid, the stores still collect rent and so on. The KYC is independent of all of that.

It's independent, but it was their only weapon to compete CEX, until recently. They don't have future now more. As I said, you can get the exact same service from a centralized exchange, and much cheaper. And I don't blame them. Regulators must be pushing them.

Part of the % is also convenience. No looking for people to trade with, no waiting for someone, no worrying if you are going to somehow get scammed. And so on, you put in cash and get BTC or you put in BTC and cash pops out of the machine. There is a cost for convenience.

Humor, and unrelated but it makes the point. Back in the early 1990s there was an earthquake in southern CA, there were people complaining that some of the local convenience stores were price gouging / profiteering on the fact that they had things that people needed and were marking it up because of the earthquake. They actually were not, they were just that overpriced since they are convenience stores. Get in get what you want and get out....

-Dave

[BlackHatCoiner]

The point I'm making is that by this point it isn't a stranger.

So, you wouldn't exchange F2F with a complete stranger, but with someone you've traded several times?

I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you, but Bisq arbitrators do not set the fees, they simply moderate any disputes.

Yes, but they're part of the DAO, right? Don't the members of this DAO charge fees to sustain their operation? If there were more arbitrators, wouldn't this process be cheaper? If we're going to have complete free trade, the fees should adjust freely as well.

One more question that I can't answer honestly: can't someone fake their trust? Like, creates several Bisq identities and starts trading with each, to insure trustworthiness.

[o_e_l_e_o]

So, you wouldn't exchange F2F with a complete stranger, but with someone you've traded several times?

No, I wouldn't trade off-DEX with a complete stranger. I've traded face to face with complete strangers before, but always via a DEX where the bitcoin involved will be locked in an escrow prior to meeting to hand over the cash. But now a lot of my trades are done without a DEX because once you've traded with the same person hundreds of times, you may find you have enough mutual trust to just message each other directly and send coins directly without using a DEX.

Yes, but they're part of the DAO, right? Don't the members of this DAO charge fees to sustain their operation? If there were more arbitrators, wouldn't this process be cheaper? If we're going to have complete free trade, the fees should adjust freely as well.

Bisq charges fees which are spent on funding the DAO and future development, yes, but arbitrators don't set those fees and I would be surprised if the number of arbitrators has any impact on the trading fees.

One more question that I can't answer honestly: can't someone fake their trust? Like, creates several Bisq identities and starts trading with each, to insure trustworthiness.

Bisq doesn't use a reputation system like that, so that wouldn't work on Bisq. Other sites such as HodlHodl let you view the profiles of everyone who has left a user feedback, so you can easily see if they are all fake accounts with only 1 trade.

[DaveF]

So, you wouldn't exchange F2F with a complete stranger, but with someone you've traded several times?

No, I wouldn't trade off-DEX with a complete stranger. I've traded face to face with complete strangers before, but always via a DEX where the bitcoin involved will be locked in an escrow prior to meeting to hand over the cash. But now a lot of my trades are done without a DEX because once you've traded with the same person hundreds of times, you may find you have enough mutual trust to just message each other directly and send coins directly without using a DEX.

I know it's been discussed here before, but for F2F transfers how do you verify the cash?

Personally a local casino works for me. Lots of security, cash is common and you can put some random bills in a slot machine and if it takes them you are good to go.

But meeting in other public places just does not seem as secure to me.

-Dave

[Husires]

5. Buy gift cards with cash and sell them For BTC: It is the most effective way to buy bitcoins anonymously, especially those physical cards that can be bought in stores that do not have surveillance cameras.

Why?
It does not need to reveal your identity and the physical card ensures that no information will be collected about you.
If you are reliable, you will not sell those cards at a discount.
Good for those who want to buy small amounts.

[NotATether]

5. Buy gift cards with cash and sell them For BTC: It is the most effective way to buy bitcoins anonymously, especially those physical cards that can be bought in stores that do not have surveillance cameras.

Why?
It does not need to reveal your identity and the physical card ensures that no information will be collected about you.
If you are reliable, you will not sell those cards at a discount.
Good for those who want to buy small amounts.

How on earth are you going to sell them online though? People will think you are a scammer because that's what 90% of the sellers are.


@BlackHatCoiner, what's your average time your Bisq trades take? Particularly for altcoin exchanging - in my first experience, I cancelled the trade after an hour passed with no buyers. There were only a few dozen open offers for altcoin to bitcoin exchange in total.

[larry_vw_1955]

Bisq doesn't use a reputation system like that, so that wouldn't work on Bisq. Other sites such as HodlHodl let you view the profiles of everyone who has left a user feedback, so you can easily see if they are all fake accounts with only 1 trade.

Was kind of bummed out that HodlHodl and Localbitcoins aren't available to usa residents. In that sense then they are not reallly decentralized exchanges. They are centralized. that's the usa for you though. always protecting its citizens to not be able to use services they might want to.  

so far i got bisq, agoradesk as ones that a usa person could use. and localmonero if you're into xmr.

oh i forgot about paxful. not sure i would trust them seen alot of buy offers wanting to pay with "game items", gift cards of various types and crap like that for way over market price. something can't be right about that stuff...

[BlackHatCoiner]

5. Buy gift cards with cash and sell them For BTC: It is the most effective way to buy bitcoins anonymously, especially those physical cards that can be bought in stores that do not have surveillance cameras.

It's easier to be a consumer than to be a merchant. So, if you want to sell bitcoin, you could just purchase gift cards from trusted stores (using bitcoin), instead of being a merchant yourself. Buying bitcoin with gift cards is rather difficult.

@BlackHatCoiner, what's your average time your Bisq trades take? Particularly for altcoin exchanging - in my first experience, I cancelled the trade after an hour passed with no buyers. There were only a few dozen open offers for altcoin to bitcoin exchange in total.

I haven't ever made an offer myself, I've only picked others' offers. So, it was instant.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I know it's been discussed here before, but for F2F transfers how do you verify the cash?

Any method in which the cash can be immediately withdrawn prior to the trade, or immediately deposited after the trade. For smaller amounts, the easiest way to do this is to meet at an ATM and for the party buying the bitcoin to withdraw the cash directly from the ATM and immediately hand it over. For larger amounts, you can either do the same thing but at a bank where you can withdraw more than at an ATM, or you can meet at a bank and have the bitcoin seller deposit the cash prior to releasing the bitcoin from escrow. I remember you mentioning a casino before, and it is a nice option. I do wonder if a casino would take issue if they discover what you are doing, though, as you are essentially converting currencies on their premises.

This is another bonus of what I was talking about above regarding trading with the same person dozens or even hundreds of times. At some point, you build enough trust to stop doing this.

But meeting in other public places just does not seem as secure to me.

Most banks have plenty of security and CCTV cameras, or you choose an ATM in the middle of a busy public mall in the middle of the day, or similar.

Was kind of bummed out that HodlHodl and Localbitcoins aren't available to usa residents.

Just don't use a US IP address. HodlHodl don't know otherwise since you don't have to register any information with them. I wouldn't touch LBC though, since they are just another centralized KYC exchange.

so far i got bisq, agoradesk as ones that a usa person could use. and localmonero if you're into xmr.

Just to point out that LocalMonero and AgoraDesk are two fronts of the same service.

[larry_vw_1955]

Just don't use a US IP address. HodlHodl don't know otherwise since you don't have to register any information with them.

yeah for their selling and buying platform I guess that's the case.

but they also have a p2p lending which apparently they opened it up to usa people: https://cryptobriefing.com/hodl-hodl-opens-decentralized-bitcoin-lending-us-users/

that's kind of important because you would hate to have your money in a 2 of 3 multisig with them holding one of the keys and the thing stuck in some type of dispute where they are asking you for an ID.  

I wouldn't touch LBC though, since they are just another centralized KYC exchange.

i always thought they were p2p type thing. but they did pull out of the usa unfortunately. decreasing available ways to get bitcoin in the process.

Just to point out that LocalMonero and AgoraDesk are two fronts of the same service.

yep. i don't understand why there would be people wanting to buy btc using paypal when they could just buy it from paypal (https://www.paypal.com/us/digital-wallet/manage-money/crypto) and send it out wherever they want to. plus i dont understand why someone would want to sell to someone that wanted to use paypal as their payment method, given the above fact. since paypal like many of the payment methods listed on the site are not irreversible. that's at best. at worst, the company steps in and freezes the buyer and/or sellers account due to TOS violations.  

[o_e_l_e_o]

that's kind of important because you would hate to have your money in a 2 of 3 multisig with them holding one of the keys and the thing stuck in some type of dispute where they are asking you for an ID.

I can't really comment about their lending platform as I have never used it. Nor will I. I have no interest in risking my bitcoin in some questionable loan collateralized with centralized, fractional reserve (un)stablecoins.

i always thought they were p2p type thing. but they did pull out of the usa unfortunately. decreasing available ways to get bitcoin in the process.

They have always been P2P, but many years ago they swapped from a site purely listing peer-to-peer trades (much like HodlHodl is now), to requiring accounts, verification, KYC details, and centralized wallets. So although you still trade peer-to-peer, it is entirely centralized and therefore, like all centralized exchanges, neither private nor secure.

i don't understand why there would be people wanting to buy btc using paypal when they could just buy it from paypal (https://www.paypal.com/us/digital-wallet/manage-money/crypto) and send it out wherever they want to.

Well, because PayPal will log your bitcoin purchases and transactions against your real name and identity and hand all that information over to blockchain analysis companies. But as mentioned I would steer well clear of PayPal at all times.

[larry_vw_1955]

I can't really comment about their lending platform as I have never used it. Nor will I. I have no interest in risking my bitcoin in some questionable loan collateralized with centralized, fractional reserve (un)stablecoins.

i'll have to look into how they have it set up a bit more detail. i don't just assume it is a scam. even something like bisq, the seller has to send their btc to an address out of their control. and trust the people that run it to do the right things...

They have always been P2P, but many years ago they swapped from a site purely listing peer-to-peer trades (much like HodlHodl is now), to requiring accounts, verification, KYC details, and centralized wallets. So although you still trade peer-to-peer, it is entirely centralized and therefore, like all centralized exchanges, neither private nor secure.

and that's how bitcoin sellers got thrown in jail for running unlicensed money transfer services/businesses here in the usa by using LBC too much 

Well, because PayPal will log your bitcoin purchases and transactions against your real name and identity and hand all that information over to blockchain analysis companies. But as mentioned I would steer well clear of PayPal at all times.

maybe that's why. another reason might be paypal reports crypto transactions to the irs or other government taxing authority not sure if they do but i would assume so. anyone using something like bisq or agoradesk is not a newbie and they have their reasons. no one just wonders on to a site like that and starts buying bitcoin with paypal. it's either some or all of those things or they are trying to scam.