Provably fair games are not fair

[btc78]

I am playing provably fair games for 1 year on sites like stake , bc game etc,


you will always lose when you play provably fair games too long

I played provably fair games 1 year and i mostly losed so i am moving to live casino

My english is bad and it's hard for me to make you understand ,

even if which gaming you playing , either live or online but if your attitude will not change and that is addicted? then surely you will lose forever, you even trying to ask for No collateral loan meaning you are truly bad in handling your financial status.

[Fivestar4everMVP]

I am playing provably fair games for 1 year on sites like stake , bc game etc,


you will always lose when you play provably fair games too long

I played provably fair games 1 year and i mostly losed so i am moving to live casino

My english is bad and it's hard for me to make you understand ,

even if which gaming you playing , either live or online but if your attitude will not change and that is addicted? then surely you will lose forever, you even trying to ask for No collateral loan meaning you are truly bad in handling your financial status.

Sincerely, I don't see how attitude comes into play on what the OP is discussing about, except if you don't understand him, for the fact, like i said in my previous comment, I personally relate to what he said, But then, my personal conclusion on the matter is that, casino games is not the best way to make profit if the motive of playing is to make profit, like for me, I play casino games mostly because i like the game and want to have fun with it, if am really gambling with intent of making money, i know other games to try my luck on, and sports betting is one of those.

[Mr. Magkaisa]

You will always lose if everyday you gamble a lot of money where you put your big capital into a big risk in the gambling.
Now if you place bet 100x spin in any of the slot or whatever games it is, it doesn't mean all the count in spin will lead into winning every time
it rolls of course not, the games is not design in that way.

This is the reason why gambling always depends in luck not in skills and the house edge always win
and the gamblers always lose in the games as well just simple as that.

[pawanjain]

I think OP is getting it wrong. There are two things that I want to highlight.

1. OP mentioned that the algorithm take client seed, server seed and nonce only and so why would changing the bet amount would decrease the probability of hitting 100x. It should ideally stay the same whether or not the bet amount is changed.

2. Even if you have played the 100 bets its not absolutely mandatory that you would hit 100x in 100 bets. Its just a probability. You can also not hit 100x and then hit 100x twice in the next 10 bets.

Anything is possible.

I agree. I tested this before playing dice. 10 bets per seed. Results are 4/10, 3/10,7/10,6/10. Provably fair is just the randomness of your game. By doing that I understood how it works. There's no such thing as a lucky seed too. Sometimes one seed could give you a good initial win streak but as it goes on you will feel the changes in the results.
So, you could keep on changing those seeds but soon it will try to balance the outcome because some seeds do give you profits in the long run.
But short-term gamblers will try to get a new seed so it resets.

Yeah even I have seen some gamblers changing the client seed very frequently in the hope to win big in the first few bets.
I don't really know if that's a good strategy or not but I can say that at the end the results would more or less be the same.
A person using the same seed would more or less win the same amount of reward when compared to a person who frequently changes the client seed.

[dimonstration]

In fact, if we play on the most trusted and most popular casino sites, all the games are the same, there's no such thing as fair or unfair.
If Tita says it's fair, it's because we won and the dealer lost, was that fair for the dealer, and conversely, we can say it's unfair, if we lose and the dealer wins, is that fair for those of us who only bet and play.
So my personal response to the question you made is that all games are the same.
Fair or unfair depends on our own mindset not about the problem of the game or even the casino site.
Except if we play at a casino which is indeed a scam and fraud often occurs in it, then it can be said that it is unfair. However, the fault is not entirely with the casino or the players, but we are also wrong for choosing to play at a casino that cannot be relied on and trusted.

You probably fair being discussed here is about the seed used on the probably fair games and not the literal game fairness that you are describing. The OP pointing out that a casino is using a not probably fair method on determining results which makes him harder to win base on the probability.

In the end most of the bets is verifiable and it’s up to the user if they will believe on it or not. OP should just know the probability is sometimes far different on the actual outcome to avoid this kind of speculation. This type of probably fair games is working properly without any problem for a long time tho.

[wiss19]

I think many people already know that it's hard to win in gambling so they don't hope that they will win every session they make but they just play for fun using only the money that aren't really needed. There are people who play for profits but they don't always chase higher multipliers because they are also aware that it's not easy to get them but they just bet high on lower multipliers to be able to get a massive win. A 100x multiplier does not mean that we will get it at 100 spins. It also doesn't matter if you bet on fix amount or not. Anything here still works randomly.

Everyone is moving into online casinos, but you here are the opposite. You will move to offline casinos just because you think they are more fair. Well good luck about that but I still think that provably fair casinos are more fairer than those casinos who doesn't have it.

[klidex]

In fact, if we play on the most trusted and most popular casino sites, all the games are the same, there's no such thing as fair or unfair.
If Tita says it's fair, it's because we won and the dealer lost, was that fair for the dealer, and conversely, we can say it's unfair, if we lose and the dealer wins, is that fair for those of us who only bet and play.
So my personal response to the question you made is that all games are the same.
Fair or unfair depends on our own mindset not about the problem of the game or even the casino site.
Except if we play at a casino which is indeed a scam and fraud often occurs in it, then it can be said that it is unfair. However, the fault is not entirely with the casino or the players, but we are also wrong for choosing to play at a casino that cannot be relied on and trusted.

You probably fair being discussed here is about the seed used on the probably fair games and not the literal game fairness that you are describing. The OP pointing out that a casino is using a not probably fair method on determining results which makes him harder to win base on the probability.

In the end most of the bets is verifiable and it’s up to the user if they will believe on it or not. OP should just know the probability is sometimes far different on the actual outcome to avoid this kind of speculation. This type of probably fair games is working properly without any problem for a long time tho.

Each casino has its own game program in it and we as gamblers or bettors don't know if the game program at the casino is fair or not in determining a definite end result. If you want to get results and satisfaction in playing, you have to choose a trusted casino.
But what is clear is that every casino will not let gamblers continue to win in every game.
As a gambler, you can finalize these actions by using the right analysts and predictions in every game.
We and the owner or manager of the casino are both looking for profit so we have to do it somehow. That's why in my previous comments I said that in casino games there are no fair or unfair words.

[len01]

I wasn't sure when I researched the casinos I trust to gamble at currently to see how fair they are and the games are.
but what is certain right now is that if I am comfortable on one of the gambling platforms and they have a support team that is quick to respond and has a board that is always active, I will be loyal and feel at home there. because almost all of the gambling games that I use today have been around for a long time and have a good reputation here, so I have never had any doubts about fair play.

[Saint-loup]

I think you don't fully understand what provably fair means, and especially what it doesn't mean. Provably fair doesn't mean you won't lose money in the long run, it doesn't mean the house edge equals 0% or the RTP is 100%. In other words it doesn't mean the expected value is not negative. It just mean you can check the outcome and see if the casino has cheated you or not. So you shouldn't expect to not lose money by playing to these games, you will lose the same amount of money in the long run as a similar live game or a similar non provably fair game not rigged. 

[Oilacris]

I think you don't fully understand what provably fair means, and especially what it doesn't mean. Provably fair doesn't mean you won't lose money in the long run, it doesn't mean the house edge equals 0% or the RTP is 100%. It other words doesn't mean the expected value is negative. It just mean you can check the outcome and see if the casino has cheated you or not.

I agree on what you have said which he might pertaining about that provably fair about those odds on winning a particular sessions which it is really just pertaning on the bets whether they are fair or not
on each roll.It has nothing to do about HE or chances for you to win up.

For me it doesnt matter if i do lost on long run because it would really be just that standard because house do always win in the end.Im just really making sure that the site isnt
really making out those each roll to be rigged or not completely being fair. This do really sucks!

[lionheart78]

I am playing provably fair games for 1 year on sites like stake , bc game etc,
How provably fair games works :
Serverseed: this is provided by the casino itself;
Clientseed: this is provided by the browser you’re playing on;
Nonce: with each new hand, this variable increases by one so you can keep track of which hand is which by the end of the session.
Before you start you will get a hash of the serverseed, which is encrypted. This hash contains the entire game you’re about to play, so the casino cannot change it no matter what. Also, because it comes to you in an encrypted code, you yourself cannot calculate any results for the hands you’re about to play.

As far as I know Server seed, Client seed and Nonce are to ensure that the outcome of the game is random and unbiased. You can check this link[1] how provably fair works.

So you noticed something: in these type of games our client seed also used,
people think that provably fair means everything is random , but no ,random in numbers but not in streaks
Many people play to capture 100x 1000x , if we play on a fixed bet amount the probability is it will hit 100x in 100spins or more or less but around 100 spins when played on a fixed bet
snipped

Well, I think during the game there is no certainty of winning a certain number of high payouts in a certain number of spins, or any winning at all. The probability of hitting a high payout depends on the game's rules, and the odds are always set in favor of the house. It is also not guaranteed to hit a high pay in a certain number of spins.  Since as stated the result in a provably fair game is always random.  So we really cannot calculate or predict anything since provably fair game rule is always set to random result of bet. 

An image on how provably games work:






[1] https://www.provably.com/

[Saint-loup]

As far as I know Server seed, Client seed and Nonce are to ensure that the outcome of the game is random and unbiased. You can check this link[1] how provably fair works.

Well, I think during the game there is no certainty of winning a certain number of high payouts in a certain number of spins, or any winning at all. The probability of hitting a high payout depends on the game's rules, and the odds are always set in favor of the house. It is also not guaranteed to hit a high pay in a certain number of spins.  Since as stated the result in a provably fair game is always random.  So we really cannot calculate or predict anything since provably fair game rule is always set to random result of bet.  
[...]

I wouldn't say this method really ensures that the outcome of the game is truly random and unbiased, because the owner of the game can give server seeds and default client seeds with low entropy, not random at all, and even biased ones if he wants. Giving the hash of the server seed doesn't mean he just generated it from a TRNG, he is free to give a combination of server, default client seed and nonce already used, of which he knowns the outcome.  
But at least it offers a way to avoid that by the ability to change the client seed for a truly random one, with a high entropy if the player cares about it.

[libert19]

Used to take provable fair meaning in wrong way until recently when came across one such comment.

I think you don't fully understand what provably fair means, and especially what it doesn't mean. Provably fair doesn't mean you won't lose money in the long run, it doesn't mean the house edge equals 0% or the RTP is 100%. In other words it doesn't mean the expected value is not negative. It just mean you can check the outcome and see if the casino has cheated you or not. So you shouldn't expect to not lose money by playing to these games, you will lose the same amount of money in the long run as a similar live game or a similar non provably fair game not rigged.  

 
Meaning is apparent in word itself, 'provable' fairness and there is nothing to correct in op when meaning itself is taken for it's not.

[piebeyb]

I wasn't sure when I researched the casinos I trust to gamble at currently to see how fair they are and the games are.
but what is certain right now is that if I am comfortable on one of the gambling platforms and they have a support team that is quick to respond and has a board that is always active, I will be loyal and feel at home there. because almost all of the gambling games that I use today have been around for a long time and have a good reputation here, so I have never had any doubts about fair play.

OP had plenty of time to check which games were fair and unfair, but for me didn't have time to check it all I know is just playing free time with extra money then playing in old reputable casinos, anyway I know the bookie will always win regardless of whether it's a fair or unfair game, that's in my opinion

[Kakmakr]

I think a lot of people does not understand what the "provably fair" statement on many of these sites mean to them. In my opinion it only says that you as a gambler, can test each and every bet on their site to see if it was done correctly or not. It takes your Client seed and the Server seed and the Nonce and it reverse the process to show that the calculation for the result was valid.

You also have to consider other factors like the RTP and Variance .....so it is not as easy as it sounds to determine if the games are fair or not, if you do not have all those inputs. (The Server seed are hidden to protect the casino)

[adzino]

I experimented many times ,
Changing client seed will reset everything ,

and

Let , I am playing keno , you can experiment this,
ok , so game is provably fair ,  
I selected 10 keno number and I faced a long losing streak of 20 then It will always hit when by bet is initial amount or less than initial when i started playing keno
After long losing streak of 20 When i incresed the bet by only a few percent I will continue losing streak
I don't know this assumptiom is right or not
But i experimented 6 months
If you don't believe you can experiment i guarantee you will also face this type of fairness

Here is your problem.. You don't understand how provably fair games work. You think that if you place small bets, you win, but if you place large bets, you lose. That is true for casinos that have fake provably fair games and casinos that rig your bets. Play in a legit casino and you will be fine. Also just because you lost 20x in a row doesn't mean you will win in the next bet. I bet you don't complain after you win 100x in just two bets, do you? You are suffering from gamblers fallacy.

[Taskford]

I experimented many times ,
Changing client seed will reset everything ,

and

Let , I am playing keno , you can experiment this,
ok , so game is provably fair ,  
I selected 10 keno number and I faced a long losing streak of 20 then It will always hit when by bet is initial amount or less than initial when i started playing keno
After long losing streak of 20 When i incresed the bet by only a few percent I will continue losing streak
I don't know this assumptiom is right or not
But i experimented 6 months
If you don't believe you can experiment i guarantee you will also face this type of fairness

Here is your problem.. You don't understand how provably fair games work. You think that if you place small bets, you win, but if you place large bets, you lose. That is true for casinos that have fake provably fair games and casinos that rig your bets. Play in a legit casino and you will be fine. Also just because you lost 20x in a row doesn't mean you will win in the next bet. I bet you don't complain after you win 100x in just two bets, do you? You are suffering from gamblers fallacy.

Maybe he played at not reputable casino that's why he rise up that conclusion about placing that bets and get the result he mentioned. If he played at reputable casino maybe all of this will be change and he might think about all is random then its all about luck. He maybe complain because he lost but I bet he will not say those words if he win.

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

In fact, if we play on the most trusted and most popular casino sites, all the games are the same, there's no such thing as fair or unfair.
If Tita says it's fair, it's because we won and the dealer lost, was that fair for the dealer, and conversely, we can say it's unfair, if we lose and the dealer wins, is that fair for those of us who only bet and play.
So my personal response to the question you made is that all games are the same.
Fair or unfair depends on our own mindset not about the problem of the game or even the casino site.
Except if we play at a casino which is indeed a scam and fraud often occurs in it, then it can be said that it is unfair. However, the fault is not entirely with the casino or the players, but we are also wrong for choosing to play at a casino that cannot be relied on and trusted.

This is the truth which seems hidden to some that when it comes to casino gambling no bias actions or activities were being conducted in favour of one and against the other, we don't have fair and unfair games or casinos but what we have is the fair gamblers who thought about this could actually exist, this makes it more interesting to gamble because we know that what we give in is what we get in return, if you're gambling and it's not working then learn more and get improved.

[Johnyz]

I think a lot of people does not understand what the "provably fair" statement on many of these sites mean to them. In my opinion it only says that you as a gambler, can test each and every bet on their site to see if it was done correctly or not. It takes your Client seed and the Server seed and the Nonce and it reverse the process to show that the calculation for the result was valid.

You also have to consider other factors like the RTP and Variance .....so it is not as easy as it sounds to determine if the games are fair or not, if you do not have all those inputs. (The Server seed are hidden to protect the casino)

Some site already state this on their platform and you can know this as well because some site disclose this data.
Knowing the fairness of the site might be one of the concern of many, but I think if you are dealing with the top site some gambler already done their research about it and you can just read it but to make sure, you can also do the same thing. Some site are not honest though, they claim their fairness is good but when someone find out that they are not, that is the only time for them to address that issue of fairness.

[Saint-loup]

Here is your problem.. You don't understand how provably fair games work. You think that if you place small bets, you win, but if you place large bets, you lose. That is true for casinos that have fake provably fair games and casinos that rig your bets. Play in a legit casino and you will be fine. Also just because you lost 20x in a row doesn't mean you will win in the next bet. I bet you don't complain after you win 100x in just two bets, do you? You are suffering from gamblers fallacy.

He doesn't even need to change his casino if he doesn't trust its provably fair games anymore. He just need to play at live table games. There are usually presented to players in a way that don't allow any cheat from the house. Anything is shown on the screen to players, dealers are even showing their hands each time they touch something. But if he really thing this provably fair game from this casino is rigged, he should check results and open a scam accusation thread in the right section or in the Investigations section if he needs some assistance.