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Author Topic: Bitcoin - a bloodless revolution  (Read 697 times)
DooMAD
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January 12, 2023, 01:24:04 PM
Last edit: January 13, 2023, 07:10:07 PM by DooMAD
 #21

so you pick the one joker card to pretend the whole deck are not playing cards

No, it's fine.  We all have to accept franky1 has declared the sole acceptable truth.  Only petitions matter and there has never been any other legitimate form of political change in the history of humankind.  World War II was definitely resolved by members of the public signing their names on a bit of paper.  All other ideas are invalid.  Anyone with differing thoughts needs to "dO mOrE rEsEaRcH" until they recognise franky1's interpretation is the only correct one.   Roll Eyes


//EDIT:  In other news, franky1 has redefined "members of the public" to mean "the highest ranking military officer" and the definition of a "petition" will be broadened to now include "terms of surrender".  All dictionaries and thesauri will be updated accordingly.  So sayeth franky1.


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GazetaBitcoin (OP)
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January 12, 2023, 03:22:38 PM
Last edit: May 26, 2023, 07:57:51 AM by GazetaBitcoin
 #22

Actually, Bitcoin is not the first bloodless revolution. If you look a little back, there was the Indian revolution started by Ghandi more than 100 years ago.

And there's also the South African revolution by Nelson Mandela.

All revolutions imply bloodsheds.  This is why revolution flags are always red.
And the list may continue. All revolutions had their bloodbaths.
Not really, that's why there are velvet revolutions, and since you've mentioned it, Romania was the only one that had a violent revolution at the fall of the Warsaw pact!

These posts answer best to your statements:

The South African revolution was not without any bloodshed at all. Many black people killed other black people who were seen as government collaborators, informers and black policemen. The executioners would force a car tyre over the head and around the arms of the suspect, drench it in petrol, and set it alight. (Also called, Necklacing)

During the unrest periods, many people were shot and killed and lots of blood were shed during those times. Nelson Mandela were involved in the bombing of many power plants and strategic installations.

These revolutions were not bloodless in the grand scheme of things Huh  Huh
Heck, Ghandi himself was assassinated.

And, if those replies were not convincing yet, maybe this image clear things better:





Don't know why you hated that guy that much compared to our own commies but you're the only ones that executed somebody then and that had the army firing on its own fellow countrymen.

Your answer can be found, in part, in this post of mine (obviously, this is only a small part of the horrors we had to live in Ceausescu era):

I lived, in part, what you wrote above. Although I was very young when Ceausescu was taken down I still remember many things which occurred during his regime. It is difficult to explain in words. Just a small example, all food was rationalized. And, depending of the number of the family members, you were allowed to buy only a (small) quantity of milk, flour, corn flour, oil, sugar or meat each month. Now excepting the fact that what you were allowed to was a very small amount, you also had to do extreme efforts for obtaining the aliments. For example, if a grocery store was opening at 7am, you had to go there since 1-2am to make sure you get a good spot in the queue, thus at 7am when the store would open you would have the chance to obtain your milk or oil or what you needed. If you joined the queue at 6am you had no chance to buy anything as until your place would come to enter the store everything was finished already. During the nights people used to make huge queues at each such store, sometimes even more than 100 people forming a queue...

Meat was even scarcer than anything. And I am not talking about fish, beef or some delicacy. People mostly had the right to buy chicken and pork meat and the chickens from the stores were always so small that they looked like they starved a month before being brought to the stores.

Annually, each citizen was entitled to 60-70 kg of meat and meat derivatives, 8-10 kg of fish and fish derivatives, 210-230 liters of milk or milk derivatives, 260-280 eggs, 16 kg of fats (oil, butter etc.), 170-180 kg of vegetables, 70-90 kg of potatoes, 65-95 kg of fruits, 22-26 kg of sugar. All products were stamped on a paper card or on a sort of register book, for making sure the citizen would not buy more than he was entitled to. The shopping could be made only once per month and only at the grocery shop from the neighborhood. In 1984 the portions were reduced even more: 39 kg of meat, 78 liters of milk, 166 kg of vegetables. The oil and the sugar could be bought also just once per month and only 1 kg of each of them.

Those caught with shenanigans regarding food (buying more, buying from illegal sources etc.) could face 6month - 5 years of jail.


Register for buying bread in Ceausescu era


Register for buying sugar in Ceausescu era


Register for buying cloths (yes, even cloths were rationalized) in Ceausescu era


The huge monthly queues at grocery shop in Ceausescu era (PIINE means BREAD and ALIMENTARA means GROCERY SHOP)

Quote
Satoshi never intended to be a revolution leader, yet his creation -- Bitcoin -- revolutionized the entire world. It took the power from the hands of elites and gave it back to people.
And where did this happen?

Everywhere.

In what country has the elite lost control of the people that use bitcoin? Let's be real!

In all countries. Whenever a bitcoiner makes a new anonymous, peer-to-peer transaction with someone else, that's one more transaction which is not controlled by the State. Whenever a bitcoiner attempts to press "Send" from his wallet there is nobody in the entire world who can stop him.

As the others said, appreciate the enthusiasm but it is way too early to claim a revolution or the outcome of it, you're at least one decade too early on declaring the success of something that has barely taken root, not even close to sprouting!

And when you think that, maybe, same words were said about this guy too...

After reading this, the scale of black market and digital economies and the effect Bitcoin will have on them I am pretty certain we are going to be very wealthy men -- even with a sum as small as 10 Bitcoins. It's just so hard to believe. We are only in the beginning storms with these significant rallies from 10 to 20 dollars. I will not be surprised to see prices from hundreds to thousands in the coming months.

The world just isn't going to be the same and we have been blessed as the pioneers.



I admire the passion of OP, bitcoin is truly a revolutionary concept.

Just coming to say that I am loving reading your posts. So on point Cool

Thank you. If you want to read more similar posts of mine, you can find them at the bottom of this topic.



Governments and banks are afraid of it, they aren’t afraid of altcoins. Nope bitcoin is the problem because it is disruptive to their system.

Indeed. Why else FBI contacted Gavin Andresen and tried to find who Satoshi is, while all other altcoin creators appear everywhere with their full names and no secret agency comes after them?



Interesting view but lets not forget that Bitcoin "revolution" is just getting started. [...] Also lets not forget that because Bitcoin's "revolution" is mainly taking place in the digital world, the bloodshed is also taking place in the virtual world.

True. Yet, this does not diminish the fact that Bitcoin managed to run a revolution without implying physical violence, does it? Smiley

Don't you mean rules for radicals?

Big thumb up for recognizing those rules. It's a sign that you are a well educate person and I am congratulating you for that. Nowadays so few people read books, so few keep educating themselves by constantly reading...



I get your point and it is very positive for bitcoin. What I would still say is that bitcoin is more of a very advance evolution rather than a revolution in the real term. A revolution is usually a total reset and the start of something completely different.

Does Bitcoin look like anything which happened before? Smiley



industrial revolution
This is what I was also thinking. OP got a bit carried away

Let's not get too much into semantics. I am sure that all understood the message of this thread. Looking for small mistakes is typically human, yet this is not the point -- debunking sentence by sentence. I could also argue and say the even during Industrial Revolution there were victims -- but it would be pointless... The important part is what Satoshi achieved and where Bitcoin led us in the past decade...

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January 12, 2023, 03:56:00 PM
 #23

Let's not get too much into semantics. I am sure that all understood the message of this thread. Looking for small mistakes is typically human, yet this is not the point -- debunking sentence by sentence. I could also argue and say the even during Industrial Revolution there were victims -- but it would be pointless... The important part is what Satoshi achieved and where Bitcoin led us in the past decade...

Agreed. I think bloodless is plain and simple: without causing directly the death of other through violence.

If we want to argue, every single development, progress, passage of time has victims either through intended or unforeseen circumstance. The way the world is so connected now, I fear every single item I buy has a chain of victims behind it, and ahead of it.

Bitcoin has always forged a path that doesn't require force.

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January 12, 2023, 04:20:32 PM
Last edit: May 20, 2023, 07:17:29 PM by stompix
 #24

And, if those replies were not convincing yet, maybe this image clear things better:


Bruh, don't do this! Just as I asked you about Romania instead of googling don't throw Wikipedia back at me without double-checking:

Quote
The event marked the 50th anniversary of a violently suppressed demonstration against the Nazi storming of Prague University in 1939 where 1,200 students were arrested and 9 killed (see Origin of International Students' Day).
~
The date commemorates the anniversary of the 1939 Nazi storming of the University of Prague after demonstrations against the German occupation of Czechoslovakia and the killings of Jan Opletal and worker Václav Sedláček. The Nazis rounded up the students, murdered nine student leaders and sent over 1,200 students to concentration camps, mainly Sachsenhausen.

You quoted the deaths from 1939, there were no deaths in 1989, only hoaxes, the most famous being Martin Šmíd

In all countries. Whenever a bitcoiner makes a new anonymous, peer-to-peer transaction with someone else, that's one more transaction which is not controlled by the State. Whenever a bitcoiner attempts to press "Send" from his wallet there is nobody in the entire world who can stop him.

And that means losing control?
So they lost control a hundred years ago when people were dealing with cash, nobody can stop me from handing someone in a back alley a pack of banknotes and getting something in return. If you think that the police would follow me and prevent this, well, they can do with Bitcoin too, remember what happened to Ulbricht? Or to Burtw?
Let's be serious, do you think that the elites have lost power in your own country, in Romania for example? I've got my info only from the news but it doesn't seem like that one bit, and as much as I can tell you from Slovakia to Poland and the Czech Republic it ain't happening here either!

I get what you desire but you somehow think we already have this, and no, you're daydreaming at this point, nowhere close!
Are they still playing with interest rates, are they still influencing inflation, are they still deciding deficits and budgets, are they still the ones deciding taxes on crypto, are they still the ones that can send you to prison or hand you a fine for not paying them? If yes, then they are still in control!

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January 13, 2023, 12:59:13 AM
Merited by NeuroticFish (3)
 #25

When I read your articles, I'm always reminded of Alex Gladstein writing similar articles.  Cheesy
Similar like you, he's focussing on how Bitcoin can help normal people in very different cases, where poverty, a corrupt leadership, lack of democracy or military surpression is causing these problems.

One of Gladsteins biggest hits is his article "Fighting Monetary Colonialism With Open-Source Code" (archived) where he reveals an interesting fact: France still uses monetary colonialism to exploit 15 African nations. It sounds a bit crazy but it's true. Monetary decisions for 15 African Nations are still made in France because last century, these countries have been colonies of France. In these 15 African countries, a currency called CFA franc is official currency. It was / is pegged to Franc / later Euro but peg can be changed like in 1994, when CFA Franc was devalued by 50%. 
In addition, important decisions are made by France. 

Why is it beneficial for France? Getting cheaper imports!

CFA Franc is a relict from the last decade.
And here, Bitcoin can be useful as Alex Gladstein describes.  Smiley

Or did you know that France is still controlling monetary decisions of 15 African nations?  Cheesy



So, we can see: Bitcoin is a great tool for people living under authoritarian regimes. It might be hard for us to imagine how it is to live under an authoritarian regime or a very poor country and for those people, Bitcoin can make a big difference. Bitcoin can really help people is such countries to WIN a bloodless revolution and improve their lives massively.  Smiley

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January 13, 2023, 05:50:40 PM
 #26

don't throw Wikipedia back at me without double-checking [...]

You quoted the deaths from 1939, there were no deaths in 1989, only hoaxes

I did not spend too much time to search for victims just to show you... I am sure that, if I dug more on this search I could had find some articles presenting those victims. I won't do it though, as it's pointless.

And that means losing control?

Yes, this is what it means. Each time you press "Send" on your Bitcoin wallet, that is another transaction uncontrolled by the State and by anyone else excepting you.

I get what you desire but you somehow think we already have this, and no, you're daydreaming at this point, nowhere close!

I may be, yet same was also the one who dreamed in 2011 that BTC's price will reach hundreds then thousands (of dollars) and his word became true in the future. There is nothing to stop us dreaming and wishing the best for Bitcoin.

Are they still playing with interest rates, are they still influencing inflation, are they still deciding deficits and budgets, are they still the ones deciding taxes on crypto, are they still the ones that can send you to prison or hand you a fine for not paying them? If yes, then they are still in control!

Perhaps you did not understand about what "control" I was talking about. Yes, the State still controls the country, through its long arms, such as State agencies; through taxes; through the laws it issues and so on. But what it can't control anymore is its citizen when they use Bitcoin. When they make transactions without the knowledge of the State. When the gardener sells his cucumbers to his neighbor and the neighbor pays with BTC and nobody in the world can stop him from pressing "Send" from his wallet. People control their (crypto) finances now. If banks decide to freeze their accounts, they can always use Bitcoin to solve their financial problems. They control their wallets and what's inside them is 100% theirs and there is no trusted third party needed to allow them to use their money as they please.



When I read your articles, I'm always reminded of Alex Gladstein writing similar articles.  Cheesy

I have to admit, I am not familiar with the subject. Thank you for sharing this with me and also thank you for associating my writing style with Alex Gladstein's!

Or did you know that France is still controlling monetary decisions of 15 African nations?  Cheesy

I was not aware about this (very high) number either. I know that France, Spain, Holland and other countries still exert some power on some small countries, which were their colonies a long while ago, but I did not know that France has that much power Oo



So, we can see: Bitcoin is a great tool for people living under authoritarian regimes. It might be hard for us to imagine how it is to live under an authoritarian regime or a very poor country and for those people, Bitcoin can make a big difference. Bitcoin can really help people is such countries to WIN a bloodless revolution and improve their lives massively.  Smiley

This is true. In multiple occasions, people which were facing big struggles in their countries turned to Bitcoin. It happened in Greece, in 2013, if I'm not mistaken, when banks did not allow people to cash out their money. It happened also in Catalonia, in their attempt to become independent from Spain. And Amir Taaki, the famous Bitcoin developer and creator of (among others) Libbitcoin, DarkWallet, DarkMarket and OpenBazaar brought Bitcoin to people of Rojava for helping them during their own revolution...

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January 13, 2023, 06:17:07 PM
Last edit: January 14, 2023, 06:28:23 AM by franky1
 #27

so you pick the one joker card to pretend the whole deck are not playing cards

No, it's fine.  We all have to accept franky1 has declared the sole acceptable truth.  Only petitions matter and there has never been any other legitimate form of political change in the history of humankind.  World War II was definitely resolved by members of the public signing their names on a bit of paper.  All other ideas are invalid.  Anyone with differing thoughts needs to "dO mOrE rEsEaRcH" until they recognise franky1's interpretation is the only correct one.   Roll Eyes
if you are dreaming that the german leaders surrender(resolving the war) looked like they were on their knees pleading for their life waving their white underwear on a stick....while having guns pointed at them..  you would be wrong

if you think the war ended by citizens rioting and "taking the capital" you are wrong
if you think the war ended by citizens walking the streets protesting. you are wrong

this is what the german surrender actually looked like

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Field_Marshall_Keitel_signs_German_surrender_terms_in_Berlin_8_May_1945_-_Restoration.jpg/780px-Field_Marshall_Keitel_signs_German_surrender_terms_in_Berlin_8_May_1945_-_Restoration.jpg

its the german leader(highest ranking officer) signing a piece of paper

when you realise that riots and wars are not "the revolution".. but instead the chaos/ fear/ stress between revolutions..
you then look to how governments change outside of the stuff on the streets.
changing a government is about paper. signing people into power and signing out of power. legislation works by paper

the turmoil inbetween is just the resentment and the resurgence inbetween

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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January 13, 2023, 10:06:59 PM
 #28

Another example: Adam Smith started the industrial revolution when he wrote The Wealth of Nations. :) There is no doubt that bloodless revolutions (democratic revolutions) are not few in number and Bitcoin is one of those revolutions... Satoshi was indeed a very intelligent person. He has made a great contribution to this world and this contribution will not be forgotten forever because he planted an idea in our minds, and someone who has this idea cannot easily give up on it. :)

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January 14, 2023, 08:08:41 PM
 #29

In multiple occasions, people which were facing big struggles in their countries turned to Bitcoin. It happened in Greece, in 2013
You are very right here! It happened in Greece and because it happened, our amazing contributor Andreas Antonopoulos got involved into Bitcoin. So far, Antonopoulos has made big educational contributions like his famous book "Mastering Bitcoin".
I've saved a quote from him (but translated it into German and don't know where to find his original one, so here's just a somehow accurate translation, would be great if someone can find the original quote. I don't find it anymore.  Cry).
It was similar to the text below:

Quote
"If you go to an ATM today, use your card and withdraw your money, it is ultimately up to the bank whether you get the money or not. One day – as people in Cyprus, Greece, Venezuela, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil and many more countries have discovered in recent decades and even centuries – one day you go to your bank and the bank will not give you the money because it can't pay you. In such a situation, you are dependent on the bank, which has already happened to many millions of people. Bitcoin is fundamentally different, because in Bitcoin you owe nothing to anyone and nobody owes you anything. Bitcoin is not based on debt. Bitcoin is based on the ownership of coins owned by you. It's absolute ownership."

It's a very good quote pointing out his issue he had in Greece.  Smiley

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January 14, 2023, 10:17:26 PM
 #30

This reminds me of Mahatma Gandhi, an Indian Hero that implemented a non-violent revolution.  As far as I know, he leads the Indian independence movement but forbids retaliation and just encourages their members to disobedience and non-cooperation.  Just like how Bitcoin is performing, it disrupts the financial system by not allowing intermediaries in every transaction created and its decentralized nature does not give any authority to financial institutions.

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January 15, 2023, 02:02:09 PM
 #31

This reminds me of Mahatma Gandhi, an Indian Hero that implemented a non-violent revolution.  As far as I know, he leads the Indian independence movement but forbids retaliation and just encourages their members to disobedience and non-cooperation.  Just like how Bitcoin is performing, it disrupts the financial system by not allowing intermediaries in every transaction created and its decentralized nature does not give any authority to financial institutions.
Best example so far, IMO. The revolution this industry is making is somehow vigilant. Taxation is a pain in our wallets given that there are countries wherein they are having higher percentage but  are still under development compared to developed countries having smaller tax percentage. What's bad with it? Corruption. It is just fine for transactions to be fined, for me, as long as money would go to the right path, but unfortunately it is not. Despite of the advantages of this technology over fiat, it is quite unfortunate to say that people across countries are still not ready for adoption. Risks would remain concerning market price volatility but as its progress continues, I believe someday, this technology would be more appreciated.

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January 15, 2023, 03:35:14 PM
 #32

I agree with others that it's a pretty strong statement that it's the first bloodless revolution, as sometimes major change does happen without blood, but Bitcoin certainly is one of the few. It didn't fully change the world, as the global economy still almost entirely works within the old system, but Bitcoin did show that something different is possible and allowed people to see for themselves. One could argue, though, that there was no bloodshed precisely because the banks, 'the elites' are still largely in control. Or, that political and economic revolutions shouldn't be compared. Changing a political regime is a direct threat to those in power, but changing the economic settings is something that some can adopt (and stay in power) or reject (but still stay in power). I don't think there was a bloodshed for turning from gold to banknotes, or from gold standard to fiat as we currently know it, yet these changes were important for their times and contexts.

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January 15, 2023, 03:54:44 PM
 #33

Agreed. I think bloodless is plain and simple: without causing directly the death of other through violence.

If we want to argue, every single development, progress, passage of time has victims either through intended or unforeseen circumstance. The way the world is so connected now, I fear every single item I buy has a chain of victims behind it, and ahead of it.

Bitcoin has always forged a path that doesn't require force.
Although some people can be forceful in their beliefs of Bitcoin. This is true for Bitcoin maximalists which can become defensive when btc is criticized even when there is a reason for the criticism. The more countries that adopt btc as legal tender could be contributing to this problem but also could cause poverty for anyone that does not understand btc and know how to use it.

If you buy something with bitcoin that was created by child labor in China technically btc has enabled you to do that. I am not saying you would know that this item was created by child labor and I am not saying that this is not the case with fiat but whatever you use will probably be perceived and argued immoral by someone even if it is crazy.
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April 09, 2023, 11:14:18 AM
 #34

Hi GazetaBitcoin,

I started translating this post for my locals as it seems an interesting topic.
I will post the link once I am done. I hope you will add it to the OP.

Cheers!

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April 09, 2023, 11:33:41 AM
 #35

Thank you for your interest. Please send me a preview before publishing the translation and wait for my reply afterwards.

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April 09, 2023, 11:55:31 AM
 #36

Well Another great article from Gazeta   Wink.

Yes, I always thought bitcoin is a revolution because Bitcoin I learned a lot of things about the Financial system and how money works. and if we back in 2008 bitcoin was created because the global financial crisis that happen at the time. So I always think bitcoin is part of the financial revolution.


Anyway should I translate this too, my first translation somehow locked by moderator

 

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April 09, 2023, 11:59:50 AM
 #37

Thank you for your interest. Please send me a preview before publishing the translation and wait for my reply afterwards.

Hi GazetaBitcoin.

I didn't see your reply. You didn't tag me, so I didn't get a notification.
So, I end up posting it. Right after seeing your post, I deleted the post from my local thread.
I sent you a preview in PM. Can you please check and let me know if it's okay?

Cheers!

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April 09, 2023, 07:17:54 PM
 #38

Well Another great article from Gazeta   Wink.

Thank you!

Anyway should I translate this too, my first translation somehow locked by moderator

I am sorry about that. Perhaps you can ask him why he locked your topic? Regarding the translation, please send me a preview after you finish it Smiley




I sent you a preview in PM. Can you please check and let me know if it's okay?

Yup, I already replied you.

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