[RANT] Can we stop with the coins / wallets / collectables with private keys

[DaveF]

...If you can't see the full address and the private key so you can verify that the private key is actually, for that address, while making sure nobody else has seen / still has the private key then you no longer have BTC.

You have a lottery ticket that may or may not have BTC in it when you finally scratch it off.

Look a handy thread that not enough people read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3315347.0

-Dave

Been saying this on and off for years. And with apologies to the coin / collectable makers that have not fucked everyone it's still a bad situation.

The coldkey was the last straw so to speak.

There are now enough electronic ways of generating private keys through provable secure hardware.

Get a bunch of opendimes https://opendime.com/ or satscard https://satscard.com/faq or one of the other similar devices out there and have them generate the address. Ship them with your custom coin. Make f--king sure people know that there is no private address on the coin.

You can laser laser etch, engrave it, make it pretty, or if you want use a sharpie to write the address on it, who cares. The ONLY way to get to the private key at that point is by using a device that WILL TELL YOU IF THE PRIVATE KEY IS OUT THERE.

It's even better since you can now DISPLAY the coin without fear of loosing the BTC on it. Because you can keep the device with the private key on it elsewhere. Someone steals the coin, it sucks but you still have your BTC.

And lets not forget, even if the maker is trustworthy security holograms can suck too: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5401502

End of rant.

-Dave

[1714238472]

1714238472

[1714238472]

1714238472

[1714238472]

1714238472

[1714238472]

1714238472

[MoparMiningLLC]

another simply solution - as a creator, dont fucking save keys - ever.

I doubt this will eliminate private keys on collectibles - that is part of the allure to the collectibles - but maybe always at least offer it as a DIY.

The ones that get me are the "funded" and "buyer funded" - in where the buyer directly funds the item in both cases yet only one is called "buyer funded"

I do make keys - and a lot of them for people here and elsewhere - but I always try to teach them or at least tell them they should make their own.

There are steps and processes to insure that as a creator you never expose keys to theft or use. Never save them, never leave them laying around, never keep them...

I think there will just always need to be a DIY option.

that said, I do like the opendime use except my fear with those is they get broke or fried - then you're fucked.

[owlcatz]

that said, I do like the opendime use except my fear with those is they get broke or fried - then you're fucked.

Same here, but if they are like Mx12.levins artwork - Worst case - If your house burns down, you lose the art and the funds. What to do? put the opendime in a Safe deposit box?  - Seems pointless, this is what homeowners/renters insurance is for IMO, so I hope you all have thought about and have adequate insurance for where you store your collectibles.

[JanEmil]

Been into shit coins and NFTs for my entire stay in crypto space. So kind of used to scams, rugs and dead projects. Some of the fantastic things about crypto is also the things that people can use against you.

Many here probably only into Bitcoin so maybe first time they are feeling this.

After few times you just find a system so you can handle it.

Spread the risk
Know it can happen
Learn to don't care because it drain your energy

Just enjoy the very good projects that are run by good people

We should never stop making new projects

[YodasRedRocket]

SquirrelBits could be burned in a house fire & you’d still be able to redeem the bits…

If you’re scared… go to church!

(That’s a joke for liquid options btw)

[DaveF]

another simply solution - as a creator, dont fucking save keys - ever.

I doubt this will eliminate private keys on collectibles - that is part of the allure to the collectibles - but maybe always at least offer it as a DIY.

The ones that get me are the "funded" and "buyer funded" - in where the buyer directly funds the item in both cases yet only one is called "buyer funded"

I do make keys - and a lot of them for people here and elsewhere - but I always try to teach them or at least tell them they should make their own.

There are steps and processes to insure that as a creator you never expose keys to theft or use. Never save them, never leave them laying around, never keep them...

I think there will just always need to be a DIY option.

that said, I do like the opendime use except my fear with those is they get broke or fried - then you're fucked.

Didn't someone who looks a lot like you have a partner do something really stupid with an address generator app?
I'm just saying eliminating one potential pitfall would not be bad.

And, as I started with, it's not an attack on you or any other coin maker.

It's just when you have a thread like the list of scam / breached coin makers that goes on for pages https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3315347.0 we really should come up with a better method.

-Dave

[MoparMiningLLC]

another simply solution - as a creator, dont fucking save keys - ever.

I doubt this will eliminate private keys on collectibles - that is part of the allure to the collectibles - but maybe always at least offer it as a DIY.

The ones that get me are the "funded" and "buyer funded" - in where the buyer directly funds the item in both cases yet only one is called "buyer funded"

I do make keys - and a lot of them for people here and elsewhere - but I always try to teach them or at least tell them they should make their own.

There are steps and processes to insure that as a creator you never expose keys to theft or use. Never save them, never leave them laying around, never keep them...

I think there will just always need to be a DIY option.

that said, I do like the opendime use except my fear with those is they get broke or fried - then you're fucked.

Didn't someone who looks a lot like you have a partner do something really stupid with an address generator app?
I'm just saying eliminating one potential pitfall would not be bad.

And, as I started with, it's not an attack on you or any other coin maker.

It's just when you have a thread like the list of scam / breached coin makers that goes on for pages https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3315347.0 we really should come up with a better method.

-Dave

no need to be a smart ass - they didnt look like me - it was me - I had a partner and yes he was responsible for making keys for his customers - he made some for me, however he did not use the system we set up, he went with an online key generator. he is no longer my partner.

It was not an "app" it was a website - one he had been told not to use.

He never made keys for anyone on here other than me.

for every project I have done or key I have done for here on the forums, I made the keys - no one has access to them.

these two situations are not the same.

also has nothing to do with using a hardware wallet - many of which have been proven to be just as faulty.

so what pitfall are you saying to eliminate? me? fine. I will not be part of this. Doesn't bother me but I wont have someone accusing me of a being a risk because I wont use a HW wallet - like you are.

[PreciousMetapsICT]

I’ve been here for a very short year. Watched Btc go down over the entire time, but what has kept me intrigued is strictly prefunded collectibles. I am not one who cares to generate my own keys, but rely on the trust I have in others to keep them secure. Yes, that’s dumb for real amounts of btc - but most people would not sell out their life for tens of thousands of dollars. I say - let the market decide - Let the buyers buy if they want to. I prefer limited mintage and decent load values with people you trust. Don’t invest it all in one creator and roll with the punches as they will obviously come. Coldkey was my first rug pull - it fucking hurts, but if a peasant like me can keep on going - then it seems there will always be a market. I swept all but the playtoshi and Diwali - to recoup funds for I’m sure another collectible at some point (probably funding for my lealana set).

[Humble Bitcoiners]

I think it's best to understand that we are many here and surely 99% or more of us are trusted & honest people.

Why should we all suddenly mistrust ourselves just because of one fishy person that even disappeared for months some time ago?

If you're frightened to get betrayed, this is surely the wrong place to be anyway. Most people i deal with know my personal address from parcels.

We are all dedicated persons here and should stand together and not devide ourselves.

Greetings from the Bavarian Highlands where doors are open all summer long and keys are left in car over night. A world most people know from stories of their grandparents🤗

Humble

[DaveF]

no need to be a smart ass - they didnt look like me - it was me - I had a partner and yes he was responsible for making keys for his customers - he made some for me, however he did not use the system we set up, he went with an online key generator. he is no longer my partner.

It was not an "app" it was a website - one he had been told not to use.

He never made keys for anyone on here other than me.

for every project I have done or key I have done for here on the forums, I made the keys - no one has access to them.

these two situations are not the same.

also has nothing to do with using a hardware wallet - many of which have been proven to be just as faulty.

so what pitfall are you saying to eliminate? me? fine. I will not be part of this. Doesn't bother me but I wont have someone accusing me of a being a risk because I wont use a HW wallet - like you are.

All I was trying to point out, after spending hours going through a bunch of cold keys, that we should come up with a better way then having to trust people.
Did not mean to come off as an attack on you, just that though no fault of yours bad things could have happened.

That is the point. There are people out there now refunding from what appears to be out of their own pocket.

In a few months what do you think most people will remember? The theft or that smoothie setup an auction to help the people that lost funds, or that people are donating to it, or that people are going out of pocket to help those that lost funds. Sadly, I think it's just going to be people talking about the theft.

I think it's best to understand that we are many here and surely 99% or more of us are trusted & honest people....

As I keep saying it's not about trust. I have trusted Mopar and will continue to trust him, I have trusted smoothie and krogoth and minerjones and a ton of other people and will continue to trust them. I have funded pieces from a lot of people. I know and have known and understand the risks.

BUT and this is just me. I really think we as a collective group keep giving ourselves a bad image.

2016 COINOGRAPHIC
2017 ALITIN
2017 MICROSOUL
2018 cryptopaperwallets.com
2019 HyperionGold
2020 Sol Noctis
20xx Titan Mint
2022 Cold Key

All I am trying to put out there is that there HAS to be better way then just trusting people. It's kind of like open source code and many other projects. TRUST but verify.
As of now we really don't have a way of verifying. I pointed out a way that I thought might be better, there are probably a dozen other ways of doing it that I can't think of but others can.

A 1oz piece of gold is a 1oz piece of gold and I can drop it on top a tester that can tell me it's contents and if it's real gold. Yes it's a few hundred dollars for the unit but if I am buying and selling a bunch of silver / gold / platinum it's worth it. Once those devices became available at those prices the fraud in those circles dropped like a rock.

As of now we can't do that here.

Side note, I will continue to buy these pieces. But, I stopped *selling* them for the most part. I might put up one now and then that have more collectable value but after I sold someone a Sol Noctis and Titan that were swept / could not be redeemed I stopped doing other ones. I reached into my own wallet and paid them because they didn't know the risks and I did not communicate to them the risks that I knew. If I loose it's on me, I don't want to be responsible for others loosing.

-Dave

Edit: Yes I lost funds on the cold keys. No, I don't want to discuss it, it's over and done I lost and am moving on. It hurts but so be it.

[polymerbit]

This fact is something I have been struggling with since the revelation. We all trusted Yogg, he was on the forum for a long time.

The reality is keygen collectibles have this issue. We've explored a plethora of options, even working on offering DIY since the FTX scam.

Alternatively... You could create keys, encrypt them via BIP38 and send them to the maker. However... this wouldn't work with distributors, and is not viable unless the prices are similar to custom commissioned pieces.

Ballet has found an excellent compromise, but that takes serious investment to pull off (to build the app).

------------

[DaveF]

This fact is something I have been struggling with since the revelation. We all trusted Yogg, he was on the forum for a long time.

The reality is keygen collectibles have this issue. We've explored a plethora of options, even working on offering DIY since the FTX scam.

Alternatively... You could create keys, encrypt them via BIP38 and send them to the maker. However... this wouldn't work with distributors, and is not viable unless the prices are similar to custom commissioned pieces.

Ballet has found an excellent compromise, but that takes serious investment to pull off (to build the app).

------------

I am going to continue to be a bit of a hardass / devils advocate in this thread. But since I obviously came up a bit harsher then I wanted to towards Mopar earlier let me start again with I am not insulting or attacking anyone or any product in this entire thread. [ Except yogg, fuck him ]. I really want to come up with a better way that everyone can come close to agreeing on. I know we will never all agree 100%. But, in the process I will probably point out flaws that exist that some people may not want to think about.

With the BIP38 option you mentioned it would work for your coins that you are going to keep. But you could never sell them since at that point you are just moving the trust to someone else.

What I am thinking about now is combining the 1splitkey that whyfly setup https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5397602 and something else.
This way you could in theory generate something that can be put under a hologram, and have something else that without the piece under the hologram is worthless.
What you would also have to create is a way to verify without revealing things that should not be seen. Trying to think of (or over think) of a way of doing that.

Ballet has the right idea BUT and this is a big BUT, their app is closed source: https://walletscrutiny.com/android/com.balletcrypto/
Make it open source and it would be better, sill not perfect but better.

And full disclosure I have a few ballet products in my collection and have used a few others.

-Dave

[Kryptowerk]

Just wanna jump in real quick and say this a very interesting, important and maybe fruitful-for-all-of-us discussion to have.
A ton of (partly conflicting) thoughts on this topic have been swirling around my head since two days ago.

Pretty busy for the rest of the weekend, so I'll probably come back here during next week and try to write it all down.
Short version: DIY-coins/products should receive more focus and it would be important to time-and-time again explain (especially to new people in the collectible space) the potential dangers of maker-funded items.
But also, there are merits of pre-funded collectibles and even though I thought so at first, I don't think demand for them will ever seize to exist for a few reasons (will explain later).
Some improvements of transparency are necessary for any reputable project in the future creating funded items, though.

[digicoinuser]

I agree and this is a major reason why I chose Opendime's for the address generation of my Yachts (some still available ).

There are a lot of items I've seen for sale here that I would jump on if sold unfunded/DIY.

[10casproj]

Can we stop making people being their own bank?

Been saying this on and off for years. And with apologies to Bitcoin / other cryptocurrencies that have not fucked everyone it's still a bad situation.

The Bitcoin developer hack was the last straw so to speak.

There are now enough security ways of keeping your wallet safe through provable secure hardware.

etc etc
-----

I wont continue... but this post it is so useless. People gets hacked, scammed etc, not for that reason Bitcoin has to be blamed or is a failed ccurrency. Same with loaded crypto collectibles.

[AverageGlabella]

another simply solution - as a creator, dont fucking save keys - ever.

I doubt this will eliminate private keys on collectibles - that is part of the allure to the collectibles - but maybe always at least offer it as a DIY.

The ones that get me are the "funded" and "buyer funded" - in where the buyer directly funds the item in both cases yet only one is called "buyer funded"

I do make keys - and a lot of them for people here and elsewhere - but I always try to teach them or at least tell them they should make their own.

There are steps and processes to insure that as a creator you never expose keys to theft or use. Never save them, never leave them laying around, never keep them...

I think there will just always need to be a DIY option.

that said, I do like the opendime use except my fear with those is they get broke or fried - then you're fucked.

DIY is the way because even if the maker says they destory every private key after placing it on the coin there is no way of verifying that they did that. DIY often does not look as good as a maker placing it on there but it is the only way you can place funds on a collectible and then preloaded coins like 25btc coins could not be made and instead would just be a generic coin which can be loaded but does not have to be.

[MoparMiningLLC]

another simply solution - as a creator, dont fucking save keys - ever.

I doubt this will eliminate private keys on collectibles - that is part of the allure to the collectibles - but maybe always at least offer it as a DIY.

The ones that get me are the "funded" and "buyer funded" - in where the buyer directly funds the item in both cases yet only one is called "buyer funded"

I do make keys - and a lot of them for people here and elsewhere - but I always try to teach them or at least tell them they should make their own.

There are steps and processes to insure that as a creator you never expose keys to theft or use. Never save them, never leave them laying around, never keep them...

I think there will just always need to be a DIY option.

that said, I do like the opendime use except my fear with those is they get broke or fried - then you're fucked.

DIY is the way because even if the maker says they destory every private key after placing it on the coin there is no way of verifying that they did that. DIY often does not look as good as a maker placing it on there but it is the only way you can place funds on a collectible and then preloaded coins like 25btc coins could not be made and instead would just be a generic coin which can be loaded but does not have to be.

Agreed - let makers do keys if they want but also encourage to offer diy as well - there will always be a market for both - let the buyer decide instead of forcing them one way or another.

[markinaz]

As someone kind of new to this forum (only recently active), I wanted to add my 2 cents.

I prefer loaded collectibles, the DIY are interesting, but aren't my personal preference.
I accept all risks associated with storing my collectibles, I realize I do not have access to the private keys until they are pealed, I keep them in a safe (heavy one that would not be easy to access/steal) and hopefully no fire occurs, etc. 
I invest a very small percentage of my Bitcoin in collectibles.....  I mainly buy to support the community, as I see this as a valuable part of Bitcoin's history and will help with adoption in general.   If I lost all my collectibles, it would not do any financial harm at all.
I accept a certain amount of risk with the creators.

Again, just adding my perspective.

Thanks!

Mark

[krogothmanhattan]

As someone kind of new to this forum (only recently active), I wanted to add my 2 cents.

I prefer loaded collectibles, the DIY are interesting, but aren't my personal preference.
I accept all risks associated with storing my collectibles, I realize I do not have access to the private keys until they are pealed, I keep them in a safe (heavy one that would not be easy to access/steal) and hopefully no fire occurs, etc. 
I invest a very small percentage of my Bitcoin in collectibles.....  I mainly buy to support the community, as I see this as a valuable part of Bitcoin's history and will help with adoption in general.   If I lost all my collectibles, it would not do any financial harm at all.
I accept a certain amount of risk with the creators.

Again, just adding my perspective.

Thanks!

Mark

   I agree me as well. BUT for any large BTC loaded items I only trust the original founders of our hobby once like Casascius and Bitbills...and the rest that have anything with less than $50 or less such as Satori's

[MoparMiningLLC]

   I agree me as well. BUT for any large BTC loaded items I only trust the original founders of our hobby once like Casascius and Bitbills...and the rest that have anything with less than $50 or less such as Satori's

possibly offer the same for your coins then?  your coins were 1 LTC, 1 XMR and 200 doge - only the doge was under $50 the LTC was 70ish at the time if i recall and the xmr was around 150

It is not that I dont trust you - I just dont like to have that much locked up on a collectible - it keeps me from buying more collectibles - that is why I liked cold keys - were all at 50 euros