A theory, DT in/exclusion and eventually the DT network

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

Do you think you're any different from the people who put a neutral tag on any chance they get? You're doing the same thing with your ~

Good luck on your quest for a flawless DT.

Good luck adding everyone who adds ****** to their trust list to your ~list. Hahaha, everyone knows what you're doing, so no one cares... Your ~ is a drop in the ocean.

It's about the topic Trust setting replica with reasons and complain (or may be it's a demand) from a user who have ~ from me.

I don't want anyone to think it's a personal discussion or attack to someone. It's not, I had to asterisk the user mentioned. One of the forum member left me (so far two) the above PMs questioning my motive to have him ~ in my trust list. It turns out he is upset about it. Clearly the politeness is fading behind the upsetness.

There are many members I noticed lately too serious about their DT status. They look at every single inclusion and exclusion as if their DT status is in stake. They feel they have nothing left in the forum when someone just added a ~ for them. Many may call me crazy but I noticed this habit to the users who joined the forum from 2017. I have a theory about it.

In January 2018 we have merit system implemented. When it did, the members from year 2017 were mostly effected. Many of them were at Member or Full member rank but a sudden change in the ranking requirement gave a break to them. A totally new idea. Before it used to be making post and earn activity, rank up. No one cared what they were posting. All they needed is the activity to become high rank. But when merit system introduced these members started thinking how to get those merits.

Then the change of Default trust system. A new motivation for some members. It's easy to become a default trusted member. Hence some easy and simple strategy they adopted were/are:

1. Scam busting : They made it full time job. There were not a single day you would not find someone is not posting a topic against an ICO or a website or anything they found in internet because some website have fake photo, white paper copied, clone of other websites. All were just in a nice format. Just change the name and new accusation posted. Good scam buster.

Result is quick. They earn merit and they started to get attention from the members. Many of them started to add them in their trust list.

2. Merit hunting : Again a full time job for some users. Constantly stalking users to find merit abuse. Usual or unusual, whenever they saw someone sent merit to others they started questioning about it. New topics, arguments, divided into two or more groups. Earn merit and get into the DT system.

3. Alt hunting: Two indicators they use mostly for it. Merit sending and wallet connection. Another daily job for these group of member. Result is awesome. Earning merit and added each others in their trust list.

While these users were doing all merit hunting and DT status planning, they basically isolated themselves in a group. A group of people who support everything they do between each others and justify it. They also set up a dangerous mindset that they like to think in everything there have a fishy reason. Harassing newbie to old OG members as if they are some sort of powerful authority in the forum now.

One thing is common to these users now and you can easily find them. When they rank up to their desire rank they slow it down. A newbie or a full member who used to create a scam accusation topic almost daily or fair to say 3 to 4 times a week, she/he does not even make posts in scam accusation board that frequently. Looking at their post history you will easily realize they are making 3 to 5 lines of one paragraph and posting it everywhere.

Those members from 2017 and later who are in the DT system, they care too much about the DT system, result is all these drama when we see someone is distrusting. You distrust someone for some reason, you are in their hunting list.

I agree with nutildah in a topic where he wrote something about users from few years ago to be in DT do not look good or something. In my opinion the batch we created from 2017 are mostly the ones who are harming the current forum environment. They are now too hostile to members that we now do not see many brand new face joining and staying in the forum. All those brand new accounts who made it there are mostly alt accounts of a spammer with a new identity.

May be the Bot can have a statistic to demonstrate the users behavior before and after 2017?

May be we need to be more careful from today before adding anyone in our trust list especially if they are too quick to have their DT status. The good one takes time to earn rewards but the one with good plan makes it easily. We need to be careful about those who have good plans.

[Poker Player]

Well, let it be clear that it was not me who sent you the PM. I was going to answer you in the other self-moderated thread, but I wasn't sure if you don't want answers there.

I already said that I am not going to take exclusions etc. personally at all. I'm going to keep doing things the way I think I should, and if people exclude me it will have a positive aspect: less drama.

For the rest of what you say, I don't know specifically who you are referring to. Why don't you explain the names? To avoid drama? Surely they already know that you are referring to them and you will not avoid the drama.

[Plaguedeath]

1. Scam busting : They made it full time job. There were not a single day you would not find someone is not posting a topic against an ICO or a website or anything they found in internet because some website have fake photo, white paper copied, clone of other websites. All were just in a nice format. Just change the name and new accusation posted. Good scam buster.

Result is quick. They earn merit and they started to get attention from the members. Many of them started to add them in their trust list.

2. Merit hunting : Again a full time job for some users. Constantly stalking users to find merit abuse. Usual or unusual, whenever they saw someone sent merit to others they started questioning about it. New topics, arguments, divided into two or more groups. Earn merit and get into the DT system.

3. Alt hunting: Two indicators they use mostly for it. Merit sending and wallet connection. Another daily job for these group of member. Result is awesome. Earning merit and added each others in their trust list.

It seems like you're jealous from those scam buster, detective, or you can name it.

If you think those user's work is really easy for making them include in DT network, boost their reputation and earn merit, why you're not become like that in the first place? I don't believe if someone who's playing and active in Reputation section doesn't care with those stuff I mentioned before.

Also if you think that's group will ruin the current DT system, you need to distrust all of them in the first place to decrease their power, it would be better if you brought the case here and explain to everyone if they're abusing their feedback, trust list etc rather than make user read your topic slandering an innocent.

Abusing trust list, when a DT member include an user which leave wrong feedback
Abusing feedback, when DT member leave negative feedback or positive feedback to undeserved user.

Is there any such user in this forum? you can also give me an example which reputable user gained reputation through scam busting become a scammer in the last 2-3 years/recent.

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

Why don't you explain the names? To avoid drama?

I can tell that they don't know about it at all and it's clear on my description that I don't want anyone to think it's a personal discussion or attacking an individual. I understand your reaction as by theory you are one of them. But my justification is not for an individual rather it's for a group. Do I think you are in the group? May be yes may be not. The same way the individual who sent me the PM should also understand that it's not addressing him personally nor it's about the person addressed in the PM.

[NeuroticFish]

Why don't you explain the names? To avoid drama? Surely they already know that you are referring to them and you will not avoid the drama.

That's correct. Still, I feel that the discussion is intended to be something generic about principles, not about pointing fingers.

May be we need to be more careful from today before adding anyone in our trust list especially if they are too quick to have their DT status. The good one takes time to earn rewards but the one with good plan makes it easily. We need to be careful about those who have good plans.

I think that you are only partly right. People have to weight it when the do something in their trust inclusions/exclusions. They have to understand the repercussions of what they do (i.e. add or remove certain powers to/from certain users), hence the trust should be related to more than just a (momentarily) feeling. It's not easy, hence mistakes are probably usual.
I think that the bigger problem is laziness together with the fear of offending. Pus maybe also the hopes for inclusion (back-scratching is real). Many people should watch closely their trust lists and adjust it. But this means some work to do, this means that some people may get offended because they notice you no longer trust them or even distrust them, this means that your own DT status may suffer.
And it's a shame exactly because the current way of things gives too much power sometimes.
Plus, and I feel this important: there is (currently) no tool that could allow one trust certain people's old trust ratings without giving them the same powers from now on. And this, together with the laziness I've said about, create some sort of vicious circle.

Maybe the trust ratings should have more importance not when somebody is DT, instead when somebody was DT when he gave that trust rating?! I don't know. It may not be easy to implement.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I stopped caring about DT a long time ago.

The whole system is a mess. There are hundreds of users on DT2 who have left between 0 and 2 ratings. There are hundreds of users on DT2 whose only rating is a positive trust left to the DT1 user who is now making them a DT2. There are more than a few DT1 users who add people to DT2 for literally any tiny trade or interaction, and so it is trivially easy to buy your way on to DT2 by finding one of these users and doing some small trade with them. It is also trivially easy to expose a few ICO scams or alt accounts and end up on DT2 within a few days, as BitcoinGirl.Club has pointed out.

This could all be fixed immediately if we required at least 2 or 3 inclusions from different DT1 users to be included on DT2. This has been talked about many times over many years, but theymos won't implement it for some reason. And so the whole concept of default trust remain a dumpster fire.

I set my trust list based on the ratings that I want to see, and I pay no attention to any knock on effects on DT. I care not at all regarding retaliatory exclusions, as if someone excludes me it does not effect my trust list and how I view the forum in the slightest. If you are excluding someone because their ratings are bad, go ahead. If you are excluding someone to "get back at them" because they excluded you, you are part of the problem with DT.

I would add that I have no idea what drama is being referred to above.

[Poker Player]

I understand your reaction as by theory you are one of them.

My reaction? What reaction? I have said that I will not take exclusions personally.

[Findingnemo]

While these users were doing all merit hunting and DT status planning, they basically isolated themselves in a group. A group of people who support everything they do between each others and justify it. They also set up a dangerous mindset that they like to think in everything there have a fishy reason. Harassing newbie to old OG members as if they are some sort of powerful authority in the forum now.

One thing is common to these users now and you can easily find them. When they rank up to their desire rank they slow it down. A newbie or a full member who used to create a scam accusation topic almost daily or fair to say 3 to 4 times a week, she/he does not even make posts in scam accusation board that frequently. Looking at their post history you will easily realize they are making 3 to 5 lines of one paragraph and posting it everywhere.

Those members from 2017 and later who are in the DT system, they care too much about the DT system, result is all these drama when we see someone is distrusting. You distrust someone for some reason, you are in their hunting list.

Since I am also a member who joined the forum at the time period you were talking about and after reading this I am recollecting many names who used to be scam and altaccount hunters and their reputation also grown quick as you said and they completely changed their behaviour after reaching hero or legendary.

I am not sure the actual reason for their change but I thought they simply want to avoid the drama happens whenever they expose someone or some project and also the era of ICO ended after 208/19 so they have a reason to stop in case of scam hunters.


DT status becomes possible for many members especially after the implementation of new DT system so are we in need of any change in that especially for DT2?

[LoyceMobile]

Oeleo (i can't really type his name on mobile) gave a nice summary: DT is a mess! I try to do my share in educating people, and once in a while point out the worst use of inclusions, but it doesn't change the bigger picture because the system itself is flawed. If too many people use it in the wrong way, the few users who use it correctly don't matter anymore. Maybe that's just how democracy works....

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

I think that the bigger problem is laziness together with the fear of offending. Pus maybe also the hopes for inclusion (back-scratching is real). Many people should watch closely their trust lists and adjust it. But this means some work to do, this means that some people may get offended because they notice you no longer trust them or even distrust them, this means that your own DT status may suffer.

Laziness : I am guilty of it too. I do not update my trust page very often. Don't know if updating it often will do any difference too. Well obviously when something happen like Yogg did then you remember that you have something to do or when you notice someone is highly abusive and it's an obvious without any doubt.

Fear of offending: I never felt that way. I think none should do. When anyone cares about the other then instead of only ~ him/her, have a discussion with him. Let him know that you are doing the ~ and when you will see he is improving in the matter then you will remove the ~. The receiver should not be offended if the attitude is correct.

The hopes for inclusion: This is evil and I think these are the ones who have plans like I said in the OP. We need to be careful from them who has good plans to have a place in the DT system. Unfortunately many if not all (of course not all) who were effected by the merit introduction and then found a way from the Default trust change, started to use the system in hope for inclusion. The theory.

Your own DT status may suffer: Once we will not think about what we are gaining from it, I think that time we will enjoy the best benefit from the current system.

Plus, and I feel this important: there is (currently) no tool that could allow one trust certain people's old trust ratings without giving them the same powers from now on. And this, together with the laziness I've said about, create some sort of vicious circle.

May be the whole trust and ignore list should not be accessible even by the member himself. Have button like ignore. Trust/Distrust. When you feel you want to add someone then press the Trust button, when you feel you want to ~ someone then press distrust button. But don't give the list like right now we have trust list and ignore list. Unfortunately we all know Theymos is not going to do anything sooner so let's leave it out from the discussion.

Oeleo (i can't really type his name on mobile) gave a nice summary: DT is a mess! I try to do my share in educating people, and once in a while point out the worst use of inclusions, but it doesn't change the bigger picture because the system itself is flawed. If too many people use it in the wrong way, the few users who use it correctly don't matter anymore. Maybe that's just how democracy works....

DT is a mess but the whole point I am trying to finger is, we need to be careful when we are adding or removing anyone in or from our trust list. When anyone is very keen to be in the system and seems like planning for it then give them time. Also check their history like when they joined the forum, what motives they have when they are engaging in conversion, are they genuinely saying whatever they write in different topics and many more indicators which could only can be felt.

Default Trust should sense as default trust not something earned easily by just being scam buster or alt hunter.

[examplens]

Default Trust should sense as default trust not something earned easily by just being scam buster or alt hunter.

this statement can be the opposite of itself. if someone has become a good scam buster and tagged suspicious accounts, is it not desirable to add such a member to DT, if nothing for better visibility of his feedback?
You are probably right that it is too easy to reach DT status, it certainly happened that a DT member did not leave a single feedback while at the same time opening new alt accounts to make a scam accusation. or they even wait for older members to express their position in order to adapt to it.

isn't the DT system overrated? what does DT power bring and why is there so much drama about it?

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

Default Trust should sense as default trust not something earned easily by just being scam buster or alt hunter.

this statement can be the opposite of itself. if someone has become a good scam buster and tagged suspicious accounts, is it not desirable to add such a member to DT, if nothing for better visibility of his feedback?
You are probably right that it is too easy to reach DT status, it certainly happened that a DT member did not leave a single feedback while at the same time opening new alt accounts to make a scam accusation. or they even wait for older members to express their position in order to adapt to it.

isn't the DT system overrated? what does DT power bring and why is there so much drama about it?

I wanted to bold that just to be a scam buster and alt hunter may not deserve a place in DT system. DT should be more than that. I understand the point of their feedback visibility but it also makes it easy for them to manipulate it. They know scam busting and alt hunting is easily earning them a DT status and the result is so many of them made it a profession while it was supposed to be a hobby. The full concentration seems to be in earning inclusion and receiving feedback.

Send 10 positive feedback to 10 users who you think is good for you if one of them send you a feedback back and include you in their trust list. Continue it for several cycle. You have good number of users who have you in their trust system and you are going with so many green feedback that you look like a highly trusted user in the forum. But ultimately it was earned by execution of a good plan. Forget about to be in the community for 5 years, a six months or one year old user is doing it easily. Do we remember the user theyoungmillionaire and some others who eventually scammed but they were looking like the future figure of the community.

The drama? My guess is, it will reduce dramatically when ignore list and trust list will never be accessible by the user himself. I think most of the drama is around for these two features of the forum. However I think we can not do anything about it. It's a thing we need to enjoy.

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

Being a DT member or not does not change the fact from the real personality of a person on the forum since at the end being a DT or not you can get tagged either by red, neutral or positive as long as it's well evidenced with proofs serving the reference to it, this is the role and true identity of each every one of us that later reflect on what we do on the forum, people changes and yet sone maintained their good characters while others take advantage of positions to serve others the wrong way, be it DT member or not you will be required to pass through the same judgement as would be given to anyone if you can be trusted or not, it's not a reservation for a particular set of people to have upper priority against the others, no one is above the law here.

[NeuroticFish]

Laziness : I am guilty of it too. I do not update my trust page very often. Don't know if updating it often will do any difference too. Well obviously when something happen like Yogg did then you remember that you have something to do or when you notice someone is highly abusive and it's an obvious without any doubt.

Fear of offending: I never felt that way. I think none should do. When anyone cares about the other then instead of only ~ him/her, have a discussion with him. Let him know that you are doing the ~ and when you will see he is improving in the matter then you will remove the ~. The receiver should not be offended if the attitude is correct.

I was not talking about you, I was talking in general. I am, at least partly, guilty of both of these.
I've done changes in my trust list a couple of times in 2022, but I still feel I could do better. And I've removed in 2022 somebody from my trust list and I still have a felling he may have felt offended by my move back then.

The hopes for inclusion: This is evil and I think these are the ones who have plans like I said in the OP. We need to be careful from them who has good plans to have a place in the DT system. Unfortunately many if not all (of course not all) who were effected by the merit introduction and then found a way from the Default trust change, started to use the system in hope for inclusion. The theory.

Your own DT status may suffer: Once we will not think about what we are gaining from it, I think that time we will enjoy the best benefit from the current system.

The theory is not bad. But I also feel that the hope for inclusion is wider. I think that DT is seen by many like a "club". And who doesn't want to see how is it in there at least once?
I am not DT for that long and I remember I've seen this or that becoming at least DT2 and sometimes thinking "how comes they're more trusted than me?". Now it's somewhat the opposite: I get notified when the new elections are posted (since my name is written) and I'm surprised I'm still DT1; I feel like DT2 or lower is not a problem.

So... we may have an incorrect/short view on who is hoping for inclusion and why. I don't think that all have clear plans.

May be the whole trust and ignore list should not be accessible even by the member himself. Have button like ignore. Trust/Distrust. When you feel you want to add someone then press the Trust button, when you feel you want to ~ someone then press distrust button. But don't give the list like right now we have trust list and ignore list. Unfortunately we all know Theymos is not going to do anything sooner so let's leave it out from the discussion.

Actually there are at least 3 cases: Trust, Distrust, neutral (or remove, if you wish).
This "hiding" of the list may be a good idea in the case of ignores actually so that page doesn't get timeout for some users.
For trust, I don't know, the list being not visible will make user X look for another user's profile and see what options he has available (maybe Trust is no longer there if it's already trusted). The list being visible can help. I think that, although it's extremely useful, Loyce's trust viewer can also be a tool for evil - from planning to checking and whatever - since everybody can see how the others' trust list looks like; so the list being editable is imho much less "harmful" (not the best term, I know) as long as it's private compared to it being public. On the other hand, the evil ones can easily group together (there are actually such groups imho) and share the info between themselves.
So, all in all, restricting this or that won't stop somebody determined. (what a long turn around my own tail, isn't it?)

Oeleo (i can't really type his name on mobile) gave a nice summary: DT is a mess! I try to do my share in educating people, and once in a while point out the worst use of inclusions, but it doesn't change the bigger picture because the system itself is flawed. If too many people use it in the wrong way, the few users who use it correctly don't matter anymore. Maybe that's just how democracy works....

That's correct. Democracy has the same flaw: it can too easily be used for evil.
DT is a mess. Is it a bigger mess than the previous DT system? I don't know, I don't think so, but it's hard to tell. And even harder to make it better.

[digaran]

no one is above the law here.

This is what I call a laughable wishful thinking. ha.....ha.
        ________________________________________________

Let me give you guys something to do deep dive thinking.
Try to ignore user names when reading posts on a topic, it'll become more clear and you could detect some very similar tones aka alt accounts. Some simpletons(naive people) think DT is flawed, it's not the system alone, power corrupts people, it's the intended attribute designed by the Creator.
We all are given some sort of power throughout our entire life span as a test, not for God to see what we do with it, He already knows, it's for us, it's an exercise for our souls, and since our every action is being recorded, these tests also provide a visual evidence when we stand trial before our Maker.

Don't want to throw baseless assumptions, it's just a gut feeling that DT members mostly have several accounts on DT, again this is the nature of power don't forget.

With the new changes to the DT system, it feels like theymos is throwing dice every once in a while to select new DT members. Lol
And since when there are hundreds of DT2 members? Note that people trying to get as many alts as possible on the DT list are not necessarily planning to scam, this is a pay per post forum, having more DT accounts equals more income per post. And if you think this method of earning is not worth the time and effort, think again.
A perfect place with a perfect system, why not using this chance to earn more money? I'd say let them use it, but why would they bully and harass non-scammers with red tag?( remember the test, trial etc.) Evidence is needed. Some might say "we don't believe in God" that's exactly a bullying cheater would say.

[yahoo62278]

I hadn't checked bpip for awhile so I took a look. Looks like I have you ~ in my list. I believe that was added when you thought your account was hacked, I just never went back and removed it. I'll fix that shortly.

o_e_l_e_o has the right idea IMO. I stopped caring myself a few months back and wiped my trust list. That does not mean I do not trust some people on this forum, it only means I could care less about any status here.

The users you are talking about IMO are users looking to gain status and think they are a somebody here. Users that might use DT status to bully or pressure people to help their agenda. So, those of you who do use the trust list on this forum do need to consider your additions very carefully. I would go as far as saying you should go look at your lists and check each name. See if you can think of a reason why they are on your list, if not remove them. Just my opinion. Everyone can do as they please, but if you care about the forum and its users you might consider it and try to keep the corruption at a minimum.

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

I was not talking about you, I was talking in general. I am, at least partly, guilty of both of these.

I was expressing my guilt and I think it's not only you and me but most of us. There are some users who are very good at controlling their nerves, may be some of them feel less guilt.

I hadn't checked bpip for awhile so I took a look. Looks like I have you ~ in my list. I believe that was added when you thought your account was hacked, I just never went back and removed it. I'll fix that shortly.

After recovering it I basically never ask anyone to remove such things. It did not matter to me to be honest.

The users you are talking about IMO are users looking to gain status and think they are a somebody here. Users that might use DT status to bully or pressure people to help their agenda.

Exactly these users are the group in my definitions, the group who have good plans.

DT is a mess. Is it a bigger mess than the previous DT system? I don't know, I don't think so, but it's hard to tell. And even harder to make it better.

If I am asked to choice one then I would like to go back to the previous one. But that's not a right option. I think (I told it before too) this feedback system only should be limited to trading goods and stuffs between each others. People will still abuse but at least with the limit, the harassment to each others or to spread fear everywhere will reduce. The real newbies of the forum needs a space to breath and they will have it.

[NeuroticFish]

I was expressing my guilt and I think it's not only you and me but most of us. There are some users who are very good at controlling their nerves, may be some of them feel less guilt.

Point taken. I somehow think that many are not even aware of their "guilt".

DT is a mess. Is it a bigger mess than the previous DT system? I don't know, I don't think so, but it's hard to tell. And even harder to make it better.

If I am asked to choice one then I would like to go back to the previous one. But that's not a right option. I think (I told it before too) this feedback system only should be limited to trading goods and stuffs between each others. People will still abuse but at least with the limit, the harassment to each others or to spread fear everywhere will reduce. The real newbies of the forum needs a space to breath and they will have it.

The thing is... bounties and signature campaigns are business. And they (especially signature campaigns) are tied to trust ratings. The prestigious campaigns will require prestigious users and reject the shady ones.
With signatures getting more and more widespread through the forum, leaving trust rating only to trading is not good enough.
And splitting trading related feedback (and maybe the trading related trust circles) from forum-wide generic rating (shady links, scam attempts, ...) and forum-wide trust circles - ie DT - may only make the things more difficult, but not more useful, nor better.