How bitcoin supply can be more than 21 million

[cafter]

on many exchanges we can trade futures and derivative trading, with leverage upto  125x or more.
so there is total 19 millions bitcoins circulating ok , In which, many coins are lost or people holding for long term
my question is, we can trade more than 19miilions coins on exchanges with leverage like: an institution have 500k bitcoins and they are trading on 50x leverage (it's obvious no one will take this much risk just for example and understanding) and more like people or institution like this than we can rich more than 19miillion coins
or more than exchange's reserve ,
and buyer and seller are also agree to trade
(totally hypothetical or don't know we already trading like this or not)

is it can happen can we trade just numbers

[NeuroticFish]

is it can happen can we trade just numbers

On any centralized exchange you're trading just numbers. Those are real coins only at depositing and at withdrawing, when they are visible on the blockchain. All the rest is numbers in the exchange's internal database.

[Poker Player]

(totally hypothetical or don't know we already trading like this or not)

That should make you think how fake that trading is. As NeuroticFish says the real coins are visible on the blockchain. What you are trading in that kind of financial casino is mostly fake, created in such a way that there is a very high probability that you will lose your money.

Bitcoin was created precisely in response to that kind of false and speculative economics.

[un_rank]

my question is, we can trade more than 19miilions coins on exchanges with leverage like: an institution have 500k bitcoins and they are trading on 50x leverage (it's obvious no one will take this much risk just for example and understanding) and more like people or institution like this than we can rich more than 19miillion coins

I do not think it is possible. Leverage trading is not as straightforward as knowing the ratios, there are peculiarities associated with the collateral and the exchange. So a collateral of 500,000BTC would influence the amount of leverage one can take considering the exchange reserve funds.

like this than we can rich more than 19miillion coins
or more than exchange's reserve ,

I am not absolutely certain on the laws, but it could be illegal for an exchange to allow margin trading beyond its reserves.

- Jay -

[CryptounityCUT]

on many exchanges we can trade futures and derivative trading, with leverage upto  125x or more.
so there is total 19 millions bitcoins circulating ok , In which, many coins are lost or people holding for long term
my question is, we can trade more than 19miilions coins on exchanges with leverage like: an institution have 500k bitcoins and they are trading on 50x leverage (it's obvious no one will take this much risk just for example and understanding) and more like people or institution like this than we can rich more than 19miillion coins
or more than exchange's reserve ,
and buyer and seller are also agree to trade
(totally hypothetical or don't know we already trading like this or not)

is it can happen can we trade just numbers

On leverage you actually don't trade with real coins, I can say if you own on-spot trading and have let's say 1BTC I can say to you, you don't own this BTC till you transfer it to your cold wallet. So all this leverage is an illusion to most people, and I can say from this point all the manipulation exists.

[Tytanowy Janusz]

my question is, we can trade more than 19miilions coins on exchanges with leverage like: an institution have 500k bitcoins and they are trading on 50x leverage (it's obvious no one will take this much risk just for example and

Its not how leverage works. It multiply the amount of cash you have available not the amount of coins you bought. So you have 10 mln $, with 50x leverage you have 500 mln$, but its still $. You still have to buy coins from market.

But your thinking is not 100% wrong. I was posting about this like 4 years ago:

Money creation system - is bitcoin creation resistant?

[lionheart78]

is it can happen can we trade just numbers

On any centralized exchange you're trading just numbers. Those are real coins only at depositing and at withdrawing, when they are visible on the blockchain. All the rest is numbers in the exchange's internal database.

Yeah, in additional, trading derivatives like future and option enable us to trade any underlying asset such as bitcoin, but not necessarily ownership.  Because an investor is not buying or selling the asset itself but the contract that gives the holder the right to buy or sell the asset at a later date at a predetermined price. This allows traders to speculate on the future price of an asset without actually owning it.

On leverage you actually don't trade with real coins, I can say if you own on-spot trading and have let's say 1BTC I can say to you, you don't own this BTC till you transfer it to your cold wallet. So all this leverage is an illusion to most people, and I can say from this point all the manipulation exists.

True it is the contract to buy or sell the asset they are trading and not the actual asset.  I do agree that as long as Bitcoin is not sitting in your wallet, that BTC is not yours yet.

[Eternad]

on many exchanges we can trade futures and derivative trading, with leverage upto  125x or more.
so there is total 19 millions bitcoins circulating ok , In which, many coins are lost or people holding for long term
my question is, we can trade more than 19miilions coins on exchanges with leverage like: an institution have 500k bitcoins and they are trading on 50x leverage (it's obvious no one will take this much risk just for example and understanding) and more like people or institution like this than we can rich more than 19miillion coins
or more than exchange's reserve ,
and buyer and seller are also agree to trade
(totally hypothetical or don't know we already trading like this or not)

is it can happen can we trade just numbers

On leverage you actually don't trade with real coins, I can say if you own on-spot trading and have let's say 1BTC I can say to you, you don't own this BTC till you transfer it to your cold wallet. So all this leverage is an illusion to most people, and I can say from this point all the manipulation exists.

Technically speaking it’s true that user doesn’t own the leverage tokens but it was bind by contract which making your asset as collateral to borrow more money for your trade. Saying it as an illusion is not factual right because you are borrowing a money with a contract that you will have a liquidation on your pice once your asset reach the amount which is just equal to the amount that you borrowed to pay for it.

It’s not an illusion but rather a contract trading. 

[cafter]

my question is, we can trade more than 19miilions coins on exchanges with leverage like: an institution have 500k bitcoins and they are trading on 50x leverage (it's obvious no one will take this much risk just for example and

Its not how leverage works. It multiply the amount of cash you have available not the amount of coins you bought. So you have 10 mln $, with 50x leverage you have 500 mln$, but its still $. You still have to buy coins from market.

But your thinking is not 100% wrong. I was posting about this like 4 years ago:

Money creation system - is bitcoin creation resistant?

I know : Just like trading btc/eth pair it's an example

[Hamza2424]

According to my analysis of Blockchain it's not possible but in side chains or you can say that somehow using a BTC to BTC Peddge system on a side chain it is possible to make more than 21M supply but dear than 1 to 1 Bitcoin Peddge is not going to work there will be a huge difference in market values of both coins. On the Bitcoin network, it is not possible.

[abel1337]

You are just trading numbers on futures, Well the exchange possibly has the amount of bitcoin that they lend to you but they can't let you withdraw it and lock it to you in their own exchange since you don't own it and yeah it's just numbers that exchange lend it to you with the real bitcoin you have as a collateral. It is all just happening inside the exchange, You can't withdraw it or transfer it to others. As long as it doesn't appear on the blockchain, It is not yours. So yeah it is basically impossible for bitcoin to have more than 21 million supply.

[blockman]

It is what you're thinking that's happening and that's why it's hot on the news these days there's an implementation that these exchanges want to have and that's about proof of reserve.
It's to prove that they're holding this xx amount of bitcoins onto their reserve and they're far from being bankrupt and this is like the mechanism to avoid what has happened to FTX.

[dothebeats]

If we ever end up just trading numbers on the screen that is more than what the allocated number for bitcoin is, then we'll be no different with stocks and its derivatives trying to make money out of thin air. In futures that's the same case, although you're pretty much betting on the amount of a commodity in the future but the platform has the funds that they can release once the contract matures (expires).

No matter how many twists and turns an exchange or trading platform might have on the number of bitcoins available, 21 million is still the limit.

[kamvreto]

~snip~No matter how many twists and turns an exchange or trading platform might have on the number of bitcoins available, 21 million is still the limit.

21 million is the bitcoin supply limit and cannot be added. There is no point in adding Bitcoin beyond the supply that has been set by Satoshi Nakamoto. The circulation of bitcoins circulating on exchanges is still far from 21 million, and some bitcoin voters also hold them in their wallets, but some leave the wallet without anyone being able to open it. So the circulating supply of bitcoins will not reach 21 million. this will make bitcoin even rarer when the mining process is complete, the price will be more expensive because of limited goods with great demand.

[sheenshane]

..we can trade more than 19miilions coins on exchanges with leverage like: an institution have 500k bitcoins and they are trading on 50x leverage (it's obvious no one will take this much risk just for example and understanding) and more like people or institution like this than we can rich more than 19miillion coins
or more than exchange's reserve ,
and buyer and seller are also agree to trade
(totally hypothetical or don't know we already trading like this or not)

is it can happen can we trade just numbers

As you've said, if that is a huge amount put on exchange as a future trade no one will risk that big amount and trust the exchange, because people now learned how to store their own Bitcoin and of course have full control of the private key.  As pointed out above, on a centralized exchange it's only just a number because that's not recorded on the blockchain. 
So in exchange, there's no real number of Bitcoin.

The total Bitcoin supply should not exceed 21 million, nothing will break the code of the Bitcoin protocol and add an additional number of Bitcoin total supply.

[tbct_mt2]

The total Bitcoin supply should not exceed 21 million

Its total supply should not be increased because its limited total supply is one of factors contributes to make high value for Bitcoin. There are other factors but its 21M total supply, unchangeable is so important for the coin value.

It results in hype and greediness in speculators, investors together with its utility growth and adoption growth. All of those factors combine and make Bitcoin is an unique cryptocurrency.

nothing will break the code of the Bitcoin protocol and add an additional number of Bitcoin total supply.

I don't know. If Protocols for Segwit, Taproot can reach to consensus, why a protocol to change its total supply can not be submitted and voted?

And Bitcoin has 3 testnet generations so in future, we can have a protocol to upgrade Bitcoin algorithm, technically and have a second mainnet generation.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Testnet

[zaki12]

As you've said, if that is a huge amount put on exchange as a future trade no one will risk that big amount and trust the exchange, because people now learned how to store their own Bitcoin and of course have full control of the private key.  As pointed out above, on a centralized exchange it's only just a number because that's not recorded on the blockchain. 
So in exchange, there's no real number of Bitcoin.

The total Bitcoin supply should not exceed 21 million, nothing will break the code of the Bitcoin protocol and add an additional number of Bitcoin total supply.

Irrecoverable Bitcoins that were sadly lost due to lost private keys? Will it be circulating again? What I'm worried about is the rate at which people lose their keys probably won't even become 0. Which means the supply of bitcoins in circulation will continue to decrease over time.

My question is will there be some sort of protocol to extract or mine more coins to maintain a circulating supply of exactly 21 million BTC? Maybe every 50-100 years a dormant coin will be unlocked for mining by miners?

[tbct_mt2]

Irrecoverable Bitcoins that were sadly lost due to lost private keys? Will it be circulating again? What I'm worried about is the rate at which people lose their keys probably won't even become 0. Which means the supply of bitcoins in circulation will continue to decrease over time.

To recover your bitcoins, you must have some clues because if you have nothing, it is impossible to find your wallets and keys. There are methods to brute force Bitcoin keys and wallets but it must have many clues. A more clues (words, characters) you have, a more chance you can find your keys and seed. If you have an empty hand, empty clue, accept that you lose your bitcoins forever.

1 word - 1 second
2 words - 90 seconds
3 words - 2 days
4 words - 10 years
5 words - 21 thousand years
6 words - 44 million years

Given that, 3 words is probably the limit of what you can reasonably crack on your own machine, and 4 words the limit of what you can crack with a some powerful cloud computing.

My question is will there be some sort of protocol to extract or mine more coins to maintain a circulating supply of exactly 21 million BTC? Maybe every 50-100 years a dormant coin will be unlocked for mining by miners?

Nobody want to approve such proposals if someone submit it and find consensus. No miner, no mining farm, no whales want to support that stupid idea. Because they don't need to be genius to realize that because of unchangeable total supply, Bitcoin has its price at $60,000 months ago and will have higher prices after future halvings.

[Edwardard]

Irrecoverable Bitcoins that were sadly lost due to lost private keys? Will it be circulating again?

Answer is simple: "Never". Thats the nature of bitcoin and that makes it more valuable as well.

My question is will there be some sort of protocol to extract or mine more coins to maintain a circulating supply of exactly 21 million BTC?

This will totally kill the decentralization. So, I dont think it'll happen. Lost coins are lost and they will stay as such as long as bitcoin lives. The moment bitcoin was released by satoshi, its core design was set in stone for the rest of its lifetime. Btc will die if such things start to happen which you are talking about.

[mindrust]

It is all fun and games till someone demand his bitcoins and withdraw them. Leverage, fractional reserve banking, investing with the customer funds… these all work fine till they don’t. Gox was probably the first and ftx won’t be the last example. On paper, These exchanges can create bitcoin out of nothing but it never ends well. The other example is tether. Everybody knows that’s not going to end well too.