Is Metal Seed Storage Safe in an Earthquake?

[Hispo]

The little detail that keeps me from being fond of passphrases completely is the idea of lost coins, in the case something happens to me and my family cannot retrieve the funds. They barely understand the concept of a seed phrase.

I suppose it is matter of patience and time. Thank you all for your opinions, I don't intend to derail this thread any further. 

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[Charles-Tim]

Does the average person really have that many places to store the credentials though? I feel like they don't, and by splitting it up in places which you don't own, you present yourself with even more risk. While, I like the idea of a multisig, storing the credentials in two different geographical places is pretty hard. Especially, securely.

I too think something like that will be difficult to do, storing seed phrase in two geographical location, but we just assumed that the person wants to go for the option and know the disadvantages already.

The little detail that keeps me from being fond of passphrases completely is the idea of lost coins, in the case something happens to me and my family cannot retrieve the funds. They barely understand the concept of a seed phrase.

They might lose the coins because they barely understand the concept of seed phrase? I think that is not hard to learn, also not hard to teach. Even it is a good idea to start teaching them about bitcoin and how to recover coins through seed phrase back up. All that is needed is just the time to teach them. You can teach them, send them bitcoin on a noncustodial wallet generated by themselves, tell them to delete it, install back the wallet app to spend the coin in a way they can convert it to fiat, just to let them know how valuable bitcoin is, instead of sending them fiat directly. No one will joke with what they know that it is money.

[o_e_l_e_o]

The little detail that keeps me from being fond of passphrases completely is the idea of lost coins, in the case something happens to me and my family cannot retrieve the funds. They barely understand the concept of a seed phrase.

As long as they know how to access your back ups, it isn't a difficult concept to figure out.

If they came on this forum and said "Hey, I have a seed phrase which I have recovered but the wallet is empty/almost empty. I also have a password but I don't know what to do with it.", then they would very quickly be directed to use the password has an additional passphrase and recover the coins.

[hugeblack]

Does the average person really have that many places to store the credentials though?

Can the average person think about all possibilities? I live in an area where there was no seismic or fires before, but we are near the sea, so I keep the seeds in its normal storage, it is in paper that is not a waterproof or fire. so if something like this happens, my wallet seeds will disappear.

The strange thing is that I feel safe and not even think about developing solutions for such days. I do not know, does everyone feel that?

[stompix]

Either it is placed on the outside of the device, in which case it could easily get destroyed in such an event as an earthquake, or it is placed inside the device, in which case the range will be very short (if at all) given that the signal needs to penetrate the stainless steel in order to get out. I suppose you could engineer a device encased in stainless steel with just a very small antenna reaching the outside of the device, but you are now adding a lot of cost. You would need to access your back up semi regularly in order to recharge or replace the battery, which increases the risk of it being discovered.

Indeed, this is where storage gets way too complicated to make it a cheap thus affordable and reliable solution.

You either go for the cheap and easy way to deal with, like placing a tracker like an airbag in it, but which under 10 feet of concrete and rebar won't be detectable at all, Bluetooth doesn't penetrate that deep, or you go for a more complex and powerful solution which will need a third-party service, a huge battery that will increase the size, which might solve or add another problem on top of an existing one.

With a small box, it's highly possible it will not get noticed among the ruble just get thrown with the trash in a truck and dumped before you're even allowed to reach the scene of the disaster, with a huge box, there is the problem of it getting stolen as some might mistake it for safebox before you have the chance of getting it back. Plus if you make this big and durable, you have to hide it also pretty well in your house in normal times for the same reason, thieves getting in and thinking it's a safe box full of money, which actually it is  

Does the average person really have that many places to store the credentials though? I feel like they don't, and by splitting it up in places which you don't own, you present yourself with even more risk. y.

Yeah, easier said than done.
It was hard for me to find a place to store a pair of keys in case both me and my wife lost ours, (obviously, the inside of the house was a no), and with a hardware wallet, you must exclude a person keeping those, so, how many people have 2- or 3 properties with land so they can bury a case or a box far away from prying eyes?

Can the average person think about all possibilities? I live in an area where there was no seismic or fires before, but we are near the sea, so I keep the seeds in its normal storage, it is in paper that is not a waterproof or fire. so if something like this happens, my wallet seeds will disappear.
The strange thing is that I feel safe and not even think about developing solutions for such days. I do not know, does everyone feel that?

If you're living above the third floor or even better you don't have tsunamis at all in your region there is not really a matter of concern. But you could at least laminate it to avoid normal degradation or accidents like your neighbor flooding your apartment.

[Welsh]

Yeah, easier said than done.
It was hard for me to find a place to store a pair of keys in case both me and my wife lost ours, (obviously, the inside of the house was a no), and with a hardware wallet, you must exclude a person keeping those, so, how many people have 2- or 3 properties with land so they can bury a case or a box far away from prying eyes?

Not many. I know I don't, unless I enlisted the support of family members. However, how many people are prepared to trust extended family members? Since, closeness, and therefore trust of family can vary depending on the individual. There's only a few people in the world I'd trust without any questions asked, but I'm not sure I could trust their security. As a person, they might be the ultimate trustworthy person, but because they aren't aware or as concerned about security, I wouldn't trust them to handle something so sensitive.

I'd like to see some alternatives rather than just saying to new users store it in multiple locations, because the reality is not many people can do that without additional risks.

[Hispo]

The little detail that keeps me from being fond of passphrases completely is the idea of lost coins, in the case something happens to me and my family cannot retrieve the funds. They barely understand the concept of a seed phrase.

As long as they know how to access your back ups, it isn't a difficult concept to figure out.

If they came on this forum and said "Hey, I have a seed phrase which I have recovered but the wallet is empty/almost empty. I also have a password but I don't know what to do with it.", then they would very quickly be directed to use the password has an additional passphrase and recover the coins.

Hey, now you mention it. I had not considered to actually instruct them to come here for advice if they needed instructions during the recovery. That a very good idea.   

Better than them crossing paths with someone asking them for the seed and the pass to "help" them.

[Pmalek]

I am personally of a fan of the idea of having different backups in geographically distant places, I am paranoid on whether someone else could find one of the backups by chance.

Don't hide the seed backup in a crack house two blocks away, where you have to fear that someone may one day find it. Different geographical locations could be your parent's house if they live in a different city. Your grandparents or your siblings' place of living. It should be with people you trust most in your life where you don't need to worry about them stealing from you. If you have such trust issues, better keep the seed backups all to yourself and try to find an alternative method of storage. Even if it's in the same location. 

Hey, now you mention it. I had not considered to actually instruct them to come here for advice if they needed instructions during the recovery. That a very good idea.

Don't forget to tell them never to share or make pictures of the passphrase or seed to anyone on the forum. You don't want it to become a case of your family saying we have this weird bitcoin thingy and then pictures of the seed and passphrase. How do we use it? It might sound silly, but I am sure it wouldn't be the first time someone makes a mistake like that.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Can the average person think about all possibilities? I live in an area where there was no seismic or fires before, but we are near the sea, so I keep the seeds in its normal storage, it is in paper that is not a waterproof or fire. so if something like this happens, my wallet seeds will disappear.

Even if you live in an area with no earthquakes, tornadoes, floods, etc., your home is still not immune to a simple fire. The point is that if your only back up is stored in the same place you store your actual wallets (be they hardware wallets or software wallets on a computer), then your entire system has a single point of failure.

Hey, now you mention it. I had not considered to actually instruct them to come here for advice if they needed instructions during the recovery. That a very good idea.   

Yeah. Just tell them not to share any information about your back ups and to keep everything in a public thread and don't respond to any PMs. There are many examples of such threads on this forum and the community are always very willing to help someone recover their coins.

[Findingnemo]

Can the average person think about all possibilities? I live in an area where there was no seismic or fires before, but we are near the sea, so I keep the seeds in its normal storage, it is in paper that is not a waterproof or fire. so if something like this happens, my wallet seeds will disappear.

Even if you live in an area with no earthquakes, tornadoes, floods, etc., your home is still not immune to a simple fire. The point is that if your only back up is stored in the same place you store your actual wallets (be they hardware wallets or software wallets on a computer), then your entire system has a single point of failure.

From Amazon I can find water and fireproof safe box starting from $35+ (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=water+and+fireproof+safe+box+for+home&crid=2OYU5UWUVG3FJ&sprefix=water+and+fireproof+%2Caps%2C485&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_20) so its worth buying and can be more cheaper with some deals and coupons or nearby shops, but more compact the safe then it will be easier to keep it secured and hidden since we are only going to keep piece of paper(s).

With the climate change I can feel unusual rainy season and pour all of sudden which is supposed to rain for over s period so taking precautions before losing our assets is the smart decisions.

[Pmalek]

From Amazon I can find water and fireproof safe box starting from $35+ (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=water+and+fireproof+safe+box+for+home&crid=2OYU5UWUVG3FJ&sprefix=water+and+fireproof+%2Caps%2C485&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_20) so its worth buying and can be more cheaper with some deals and coupons or nearby shops, but more compact the safe then it will be easier to keep it secured and hidden since we are only going to keep piece of paper(s).

Honestly, I wouldn't cheap out on a good safety deposit box if you really want it to be water and fireproof. I am sure it would be a horrible feeling getting one that turns out to be semi-water/fire proof. $30 for a good product seems like a toy for children. I am thinking more like $100 if you want something worth the trouble. And I would also Google any safe I intend to buy and look for professional reviews where they show if the product really protects the contents against water and fire.   

[o_e_l_e_o]

Here's the thing though - if a fireproof safe was a completely, 100% reliable method of storing things, then you could just put a paper wallet in it and be completely safe. There would be no need for safe deposit boxes at banks throughout the world. Cloud storage would be unnecessary, since an external hard drive in a fireproof safe would be 100% safe. And so on.

A fireproof safe is not a bad suggestion if you absolutely can't have offsite back up, but these things fail, they are not immune to physical damage, they are not immune to theft, etc. And as Pmalek points out, there is a degree of trust required in the manufacturer and the manufacturing process.

There simply isn't a way to completely reliably replace an offsite back up.

[Findingnemo]

From Amazon I can find water and fireproof safe box starting from $35+ (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=water+and+fireproof+safe+box+for+home&crid=2OYU5UWUVG3FJ&sprefix=water+and+fireproof+%2Caps%2C485&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_20) so its worth buying and can be more cheaper with some deals and coupons or nearby shops, but more compact the safe then it will be easier to keep it secured and hidden since we are only going to keep piece of paper(s).

Honestly, I wouldn't cheap out on a good safety deposit box if you really want it to be water and fireproof. I am sure it would be a horrible feeling getting one that turns out to be semi-water/fire proof. $30 for a good product seems like a toy for children. I am thinking more like $100 if you want something worth the trouble. And I would also Google any safe I intend to buy and look for professional reviews where they show if the product really protects the contents against water and fire.    

I said we can get from 30 so for someone who just looking for basic boxes can consider these inexpensive which also got have 4+ ratings the actual sturdy one which I noticed is 299 if I am not wrong and it looks good.

Here's the thing though - if a fireproof safe was a completely, 100% reliable method of storing things, then you could just put a paper wallet in it and be completely safe. There would be no need for safe deposit boxes at banks throughout the world. Cloud storage would be unnecessary, since an external hard drive in a fireproof safe would be 100% safe. And so on.

But keeping paper in our hands is easier when we comparing with keeping gold and fiat money that is why bank deposits were famous for but nothing is completely safe so keeping at least two backup in different secured place can give us chances to recover the wallet in case one thing lost due to natural calamities and we are still alive out there and need money for survival. 

[stompix]

From Amazon I can find water and fireproof safe box starting from $35+ (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=water+and+fireproof+safe+box+for+home&crid=2OYU5UWUVG3FJ&sprefix=water+and+fireproof+%2Caps%2C485&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_20) so its worth buying and can be more cheaper with some deals and coupons or nearby shops, but more compact the safe then it will be easier to keep it secured and hidden since we are only going to keep piece of paper(s).

Honestly, I wouldn't cheap out on a good safety deposit box if you really want it to be water and fireproof. I am sure it would be a horrible feeling getting one that turns out to be semi-water/fire proof. $30 for a good product seems like a toy for children. I am thinking more like $100 if you want something worth the trouble. And I would also Google any safe I intend to buy and look for professional reviews where they show if the product really protects the contents against water and fire.  

I said we can get from 30 so for someone who just looking for basic boxes can consider these inexpensive which also got have 4+ ratings the actual sturdy one which I noticed is 299 if I am not wrong and it looks good.

I checked a few of those and there are 5 ratings from people that do mention they haven't been through the fire with it, so, are those ratings completely true if the box wasn't actually put to the test?

From my army training and the years I spent with inspections on the farm's buildings, there are a few things you need to look at in those so-called safe boxes, the temperature they are rated and the amount of time they are rated for at that temperature.
So if it's safe for 2000C without the time then it means it's garbage.
No safe box should ever have under an hour of constant +1000C, the average house fire goes to 800 and it can keep those for more than half an hour without intervention, so most of those "silicone fiber glass " and other stuff is useless, they throw at you a certification that really means nothing, like the 30$ box that shows a UL94 classification which is for the material itself, not for the protection of the content.
Two guys are asking for the fire rating and the shop owner just avoids the question going bla bla bla.

I don;'t know maybe it's just me but storing more than 1 BTC in a cheap $20 alibaba safe (yeah I know it's amazon but I've seen enough resellers to not care anymore about the brand)  seems like a really not so good idea!

[Welsh]

I don;'t know maybe it's just me but storing more than 1 BTC in a cheap $20 alibaba safe (yeah I know it's amazon but I've seen enough resellers to not care anymore about the brand)  seems like a really not so good idea!

It goes back to testing this sort of stuff out yourself, in order to be sure. There's so much misdirection with advertising, and specifications you really can't trust the manufacturers word on this sort of thing. It'll come at an expense obviously, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I doubt many users would be willing to one, and test it out or even have the means to do so, but it's a valid point that should be considered when storing anything of value in anything that apparently has a certain specification. Same as when it comes down to metal specifications, how many times I've had mixed metals when it's suppose to be pure is beyond a joke.

[o_e_l_e_o]

It goes back to testing this sort of stuff out yourself, in order to be sure. There's so much misdirection with advertising, and specifications you really can't trust the manufacturers word on this sort of thing. It'll come at an expense obviously, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

As an example that I just stumbled across via Reddit this morning - a lockbox called the MojoBox. Selling on Amazon for $70. Lots of boasting from the manufacturer about operating between -30 and 140^oF, being water resistant, having a hardened enclosure, tested against physical force and pry attacks, yadda yadda. Then the Lock Picking Lawyer comes along and shows that it can be opened by slapping it. No, seriously. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3bS1oLEbIM

Which goes back to my point above. If a simple fireproof safe was actually completely safe, then everyone would use one and there would be no need for anything else. But this is simply not the case.

[dkbit98]

Here's the thing though - if a fireproof safe was a completely, 100% reliable method of storing things, then you could just put a paper wallet in it and be completely safe. There would be no need for safe deposit boxes at banks throughout the world. Cloud storage would be unnecessary, since an external hard drive in a fireproof safe would be 100% safe. And so on.

I wouldn't waste money on some state of the art fireproof safe, but it's not a bad idea to buy fireproof bags that are not very expensive and they can have multiple use cases.
Similar bags can also protect from RFID electronic attacks, and there are waterpoof bags that can be very useful for everything.
This can be later hidden anywhere you want, it doesn't have to be safe deposit.

But keeping paper in our hands is easier when we comparing with keeping gold and fiat money that is why bank deposits were famous for but nothing is completely safe so keeping at least two backup in different secured place can give us chances to recover the wallet in case one thing lost due to natural calamities and we are still alive out there and need money for survival.  

I don't see any difference between seed phrase stored on paper and fiat money that is printed on paper  
You could say that seed phrases are better, safer and you print them yourself, but I don't trust banks on keeping money...it's all fake numbers on screen.

It goes back to testing this sort of stuff out yourself, in order to be sure. There's so much misdirection with advertising, and specifications you really can't trust the manufacturers word on this sort of thing. It'll come at an expense obviously, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I agree.
Jameson Lopp did amazing job with testing all kind of metal seed backup options, and there are guys who are testing cars, smartphones, and everything else... so why not.

[Findingnemo]

~snip

I checked a few of those and there are 5 ratings from people that do mention they haven't been through the fire with it, so, are those ratings completely true if the box wasn't actually put to the test?

From my army training and the years I spent with inspections on the farm's buildings, there are a few things you need to look at in those so-called safe boxes, the temperature they are rated and the amount of time they are rated for at that temperature.
So if it's safe for 2000C without the time then it means it's garbage.
No safe box should ever have under an hour of constant +1000C, the average house fire goes to 800 and it can keep those for more than half an hour without intervention, so most of those "silicone fiber glass " and other stuff is useless, they throw at you a certification that really means nothing, like the 30$ box that shows a UL94 classification which is for the material itself, not for the protection of the content.
Two guys are asking for the fire rating and the shop owner just avoids the question going bla bla bla.

I don;'t know maybe it's just me but storing more than 1 BTC in a cheap $20 alibaba safe (yeah I know it's amazon but I've seen enough resellers to not care anymore about the brand)  seems like a really not so good idea!

Resellers are out there who is buying from chinese website and resell them on Amazon and just wanted to mention that we can get the least protection instead of nothing with 30 dollars.

Personally I don't use any of those safe boxes because we have a vault which is almost weigh half a ton from my assumption where every documents are stored and its completely fireproof but never been tested as far as I know but on the paper iron can withstand upto 1500°c so it's good against fire and I don't think there will be any kind of flood or something where I am living.

[Synchronice]

I think that when we create a bitcoin address, we should consider absolutely everything:
1. Where do you live? How often do earthquakes, Tsunamis, storms and other natural disasters happen? How resistant is your building against natural disasters? If you have house, penthouse and your area is safe, you can risk for a while and save your seeds there but if you live in apartment, you should always be more cautious.

2. The best way to save yourself is to memorize seed phrase. There are a lot of people who hold bitcoin for years. Imagine, you have memorizing seed phrases absolutely every day, up to 30 minutes a day at first and then reading it up again and again. You have to imprint it in your brain. You have to imprint it so well that even if you get amnesia, you should be able to recover that information I mean, at some point seed phrases should become obsession for you.

3. Remember rule N1 and N2. Print seeds on Metal Storage, save it in two possibly safest area, don't waste time and start memorizing of seed phrases. When you think you have truly memorized them and there is no way you'll forget that, then either destroy your seeds or come up with a better plan.

Analyze these steps yourself, be sure in your cognitive capabilities. I think this is the safest option but options are very individual. You may live in a very safe area, your house is built well, there aren't happening severe natural disasters, people don't know about bitcoin, no one has doubt about you, so on and so on, this is a very individual case, I just say what I think is generally the safest option to my mind.

[o_e_l_e_o]

The best way to save yourself is to memorize seed phrase.

Memorization is the worst possible way to back up your seed phrase.

You have to imprint it so well that even if you get amnesia, you should be able to recover that information.

People with amnesia (from any cause, of which there are many) can forget their own name and fail to recognize their immediate family members. They can easily forget a seed phrase.

When you think you have truly memorized them and there is no way you'll forget that, then either destroy your seeds or come up with a better plan.

This is awful advice. If you are ever in a situation where your only back up is your memory, you should either immediately write down what you can remember and test it is still accurate, or you should move all your coins to a new wallet with a properly backed up seed phrase.