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Author Topic: Do You Feel Less Safe?  (Read 434 times)
panganib999
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February 24, 2023, 07:44:15 PM
 #21

Hi guys,

Since day 1, I was told that 128 bits entropy is strong enough and brute-forcing it takes centuries.
I get it. But i still feel insecure inside of me...
(and i know adding a passphrase or using 256bits will even double down the security, totally get it)

I'm still not sure if someday i wake up, all my funds could have all gone..

As it stands today, it is virtually impossible to bruteforce and steal bitcoins outright. I understand why you are a little scared of this idea given the fact that more and more powerful computing hardware and software are being released every year, and technological singularity is just afoot. In any case, it's a long time coming and I doubt I'd still be alive to worry about losing all my bitcoins by the time it becomes cakewalk to steal bitcoins from people's wallets. So might as well lay your worries off, provided that you don't swing your private keys around or save your bitcoins on a centralized exchange, because you're as secure as a bitcoin enthusiasts can be, at least for the next one hundred years or so.
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February 25, 2023, 11:10:03 PM
 #22

Bitcoin is probably one of the safest ways to store your money in technological terms. It's not just about the private key entropy, that is quite trivial, but also the whole system around it with PoW and everything.
You can also think about it this way: even if you had 100+ BTC, there are still people who hold more than you and aren't worried about the 128 bits. If they would, they wouldn't own that many Bitcoins.

One more question: why 'less'? Did you feel 'more' safe with your Bitcoin in the past or is it a language / translation mistake?

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GideonGono
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February 25, 2023, 11:41:38 PM
 #23

I'm still not sure if someday i wake up, all my funds could have all gone..

It seems to me that you are naturally insecure. In my case I don't feel insecure with what I have in bitcoin because from what I understand the probability of it being stolen from my HW is so small that it's practically impossible, and I haven't sold my house to buy bitcoin and keep it in the HW either. I mean, if my bitcoin were stolen I would be fucked but I would not starve to death. I don't know if in your case you sold everything to put it in bitcoin and that's why you are so worried.


I agree with this, I don't feel uneasy because I trust the wallet that I am using and I don't invest or risk more than what I could afford.
Try to use Hardware wallets if you feel unsafe to the current wallet that you are using.
For me it is much safer to keep my money on crypto rather than bank, I think there are more incidents of hacking some bank accounts rather than crypto, of course those who aren't aware or doesn't know how to keep their wallets safe are prone to hacking.
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February 28, 2023, 04:23:48 PM
 #24

That insecurities make you feel that holding Bitcoin is no longer safe no matter what you do because you are already been infected with such undesirable emotions and it was hard to remove them. Just take a look at the number of Bitcoin holders and investors, never think that they feel the same just like you but they are confident that 12 words are enough to give them security. In fact, it is not just how we measure fund security as it also includes on how you keep them safe.

Well, the big bitcoin holders have provided enough security; we are talking about ordinary people with <1 BTC. Usually, they are not very knowledgeable on the technical side.

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February 28, 2023, 04:48:13 PM
 #25

Jason Brendon, if the 128 bit security wasn't safe enough, I'm pretty sure the experts would notice. The fact that it's still considered secure, means research is yet irrefutable. Before it even becomes practical in rational time to work out a private key, we will have moved to more resistant algorithms.

(and i know adding a passphrase or using 256bits will even double down the security, totally get it)
Depends on what security you're talking about. The security of your seed phrase? Yeah, it becomes more difficult to search the entire range (not double, but 2^128 times more difficult), but an attacker only needs your private keys to spend funds, and the elliptic curve Bitcoin uses provide 128 bit security.

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March 01, 2023, 07:09:54 PM
 #26

The probibility of this happening is 1/115792089237316195423570985008687907853269984665640564039457584007913129639936 there are more private keys than there are atoms in the universe.

ITS PRETTY MUCH NEVER EVER EVER EVER GOING TO HAPPEN  Wink
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March 03, 2023, 12:34:33 AM
 #27

Bitcoin is probably one of the safest ways to store your money in technological terms. It's not just about the private key entropy, that is quite trivial, but also the whole system around it with PoW and everything.
It's the responsibility of holding a currency which has no safety net, which I think a lot of users find daunting. I've felt it, I don't know how many times I check transactions when I've sending them. There's a real feel of responsibility since you know it can't be reversed, and you have to determine the fees yourself also. Since, software wallets tend to overestimate from my experience. There's a few things that can go wrong, you enter the wrong amount to be sent, you include too low of a fee or it could be things like losing your seed or not securing it well enough.

There's a ton of stuff that has potential pitfalls, and I think that's pretty understandable to be pretty daunting to a lot of users especially when they're making the switch from relying on banks to being solely responsible.
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March 03, 2023, 05:13:43 PM
 #28

I made the mistake of not including a transaction fee once. I was making a wallet with python and thought that the fee was to speed stuff up. Boy was i wrong $100 down the drain. This was 5 years ago. Smiley
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March 03, 2023, 06:35:57 PM
 #29


I'm still not sure if someday i wake up, all my funds could have all gone..


Sincerely, I still feel this way, probably because my Bitcoin holdings are not stored on a hardware wallet, despite learning that a hardware wallet is the most secure wallet to use. Since I don't own a hardware wallet now, what I did was just split my holdings among a few different wallets, and I just still feel insecure.

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March 03, 2023, 07:47:45 PM
 #30

It's the responsibility of holding a currency which has no safety net, which I think a lot of users find daunting. I've felt it, I don't know how many times I check transactions when I've sending them. There's a real feel of responsibility since you know it can't be reversed, and you have to determine the fees yourself also. Since, software wallets tend to overestimate from my experience. There's a few things that can go wrong, you enter the wrong amount to be sent, you include too low of a fee or it could be things like losing your seed or not securing it well enough.
With this experience, we will learn how to make transactions carefully and even the slightest detail will not go unnoticed.
Every time I want to make a deposit or withdrawal, I start to check the wallet address whether it matches or not, the amount to be sent, determine the same network and see how much fees will be charged and see how much confirmation is needed, it will be very important.

Being directly involved from the beginning to the end of the transaction is an experience that cannot be had with a bank.
There is no guarantee when some mistakes are made, but privacy is the most important.

There's a ton of stuff that has potential pitfalls, and I think that's pretty understandable to be pretty daunting to a lot of users especially when they're making the switch from relying on banks to being solely responsible.
There is always the potential for pitfalls. Banks even provide a lot of traps through insurance that is actually not important and they just take a lot of profit from that business. And with crypto the potential pitfalls become a big risk for those who do not understand how to manage crypto.
There are no guarantees in crypto, mistakes or loss of assets are your own responsibility. this is real financial freedom.

 
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March 03, 2023, 11:16:27 PM
 #31

There's a ton of stuff that has potential pitfalls, and I think that's pretty understandable to be pretty daunting to a lot of users especially when they're making the switch from relying on banks to being solely responsible.
I agree. I probably focused too much on 'security' while the title says 'safety'. Although I'm not sure whether OP chose this term intentionally or whether he uses them interchangeably (admittedly, like many people).

Still somewhat puzzled about the intention behind the question specifying 'less' safety. Less than what? Less safe than using banks? Less safe than 2015 Bitcoin?

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March 04, 2023, 09:26:27 AM
 #32

By the time some body brute forces your Wallet.  Your personally identifiable information has been obtained.  Some of the most important websites in the world have been hacked and attacked.  Pretty much the entire structure of Internet and every thing that sits under encryption is now extremely vulnerable to attacks.  When you wake up realizing encryption is no more, things go down immediately on all sides.

I do not feel less safe than I felt years ago.  I do feel like we are getting some what closer to the attempt of an attack.  But I feel just as safe as I felt before because I know we will find a way to counter any attempt.  This is what makes me feel safe.  I know Bitcoin can change and adapt to about any circumstance.

On the other hand.  While I do expect we are closer to an attack, think of it like feeling we are closer to the end of the world.  We are getting closer to the end.  But it may be millions of years from now.

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March 04, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
 #33

By the time some body brute forces your Wallet.  Your personally identifiable information has been obtained.  Some of the most important websites in the world have been hacked and attacked.  Pretty much the entire structure of Internet and every thing that sits under encryption is now extremely vulnerable to attacks.  When you wake up realizing encryption is no more, things go down immediately on all sides.
I think you've got more problems if someone's brute forced your wallet, than your personal identifiable information. Also, what exactly do you mean by personal identifiable information? A wallet shouldn't typically store any of this information. Unless, you're talking about exchange wallets, which technically could store KYC information. A traditional wallet like Electrum or Bitcoin Core doesn't store that though.

Also, it's probably worth noting that most users wallets shouldn't be brute forced. The only way that's happening is if you've personally got poor security practices, i.e a weak password. No one's brute forcing the encryption method used that's for sure.

On the other hand.  While I do expect we are closer to an attack, think of it like feeling we are closer to the end of the world.  We are getting closer to the end.  But it may be millions of years from now.
Attack on encryption? We're many qubits away from quantum computers becoming a realistic threat to encryption, and that's based on the methods used today. It's very likely, we develop quantum resistant algorithms. I mean we've already started developing them, way before a significant threat has even been established.

There are no guarantees in crypto, mistakes or loss of assets are your own responsibility. this is real financial freedom.
However, it's definitely not for everyone. Digital money is the future, and I'm sure a lot of us would like banks to disappear completely. Although, that means we'll likely have people who aren't tech savvy or don't know a lot about security who are responsible for securing their assets, which makes me uneasy. So, I do think that there will always be a need for banks, for the people who don't mind trusting third parties, and ultimately trust them more than themselves to handle their funds. Which, is perfectly fine; I don't need everyone to conform to my views, I just need there to be an option to not trust third parties to handle my money.

I agree. I probably focused too much on 'security' while the title says 'safety'. Although I'm not sure whether OP chose this term intentionally or whether he uses them interchangeably (admittedly, like many people).

Still somewhat puzzled about the intention behind the question specifying 'less' safety. Less than what? Less safe than using banks? Less safe than 2015 Bitcoin?
From what I can gather; they don't really doubt the security of Bitcoin, but the fact that users might pick the easier approach. Take this reply as an example:
i agree but partially. Feeling insecure or not has nothing to do with the amount in my opinion.
although chooseing 12 words from a 2048 wordlist is secure mathematically. but mentally, i feel like someone else can just simple choose the same 12 words. (don't argue about the last word being checksum, i am just saying)
They've admitted that Bitcoin is mathematically secure, at least in regards to generating seeds, but they do seem concerned about users choosing simple words. I don't quite understand it, since most software automatically generates the seeds for you, but I suppose if you wanted to manually generate a wallet you could potentially come up with your own seed list that's within the word list, and import it via that way. However, I don't really see the benefit in that, personally.

However, ignoring the seed generation. There's is a element of doubt I think for most users. I've had it, where I've doubted whether my security was sufficient, even though it's very likely well beyond the average, but you definitely do have those doubts. The more technically minded you are, the less you're likely to worry. Although, I can definitely understand why some users would be worried when they don't understand how everything works quite yet or have never had this amount of responsibility.

Then you have hardware wallets though, which largely take the responsibility off of you.

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March 05, 2023, 01:13:47 PM
 #34

-snip-
So, I do think that there will always be a need for banks, for the people who don't mind trusting third parties, and ultimately trust them more than themselves to handle their funds. Which, is perfectly fine; I don't need everyone to conform to my views, I just need there to be an option to not trust third parties to handle my money.

The need for banks for now is still high, I admit that I still need banks today for regulatory reasons that require using fiat as the main transaction.
Crypto is only a commodity asset. Making money from crypto but the output is the bank.

Entrusting identity and money to a third party is inevitable, because it is the only way.
Another option to manage our own funds might be to just use a private wallet on cryptocurrency but as I said, the output would be a bank and it would be Fiat.

Maybe you are also still tied to some banks at the moment.

 
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cafter
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March 06, 2023, 10:01:28 AM
 #35

Hi guys,

Since day 1, I was told that 128 bits entropy is strong enough and brute-forcing it takes centuries.
I get it. But i still feel insecure inside of me...
(and i know adding a passphrase or using 256bits will even double down the security, totally get it)

I'm still not sure if someday i wake up, all my funds could have all gone..



128 and 256 bits entropy is very strong ,
no one can break it easily or never
first if you don't have very big sum of funds that a hacker or someone will \ever try to break this much strong security, because it will not worth it,

second you are ahead in terms of security because you are using bitcoin , it is secure than banks so don't worry ,

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March 06, 2023, 11:33:26 AM
 #36

128 and 256 bits entropy is very strong ,
no one can break it easily or never
first if you don't have very big sum of funds that a hacker or someone will \ever try to break this much strong security, because it will not worth it,
No one is going to try to break it even if you have millions worth of Bitcoin they would try different methods like social engineering because breaking the encryption is not possible and any serious hacker knows it is not possible. There is young people who try to crack it but they do not understand how long it would take and they are not real threats.
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March 06, 2023, 01:49:53 PM
 #37

Also, what exactly do you mean by personal identifiable information?
I meant to say that if we get to the point where Bitcoin is attacked by QC or what ever other kind of technology, every thing currently living on the Internet will be under risk of breach.  So by the time some body sweeps your Bitcoin out of the Wallet you own, every thing there is about you on the Internet is probably already breached and leaked.  In other words.  There are much higher threats than Bitcoin being attacked.  Bitcoin can be changed to revert or avoid this kind of attack.  Information on the Internet, most of it at least, will forever live there.  And I fear an Identity Theft more than I fear being scammed out or my Wallet being stolen.

Attack on encryption? We're many qubits away from quantum computers becoming a realistic threat to encryption, and that's based on the methods used today. It's very likely, we develop quantum resistant algorithms. I mean we've already started developing them, way before a significant threat has even been established.
Of course.  This is why the fear of Bitcoin being under attack at some point in the future is unfounded.  Most of the risks have been alleviated until now, and any future risk will be alleviated as well.

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