Do You Feel Less Safe?

[Jason Brendon]

Hi guys,

Since day 1, I was told that 128 bits entropy is strong enough and brute-forcing it takes centuries.
I get it. But i still feel insecure inside of me...
(and i know adding a passphrase or using 256bits will even double down the security, totally get it)

I'm still not sure if someday i wake up, all my funds could have all gone..

[1715006076]

1715006076

[1715006076]

1715006076

[Don Pedro Dinero]

I'm still not sure if someday i wake up, all my funds could have all gone..

It seems to me that you are naturally insecure. In my case I don't feel insecure with what I have in bitcoin because from what I understand the probability of it being stolen from my HW is so small that it's practically impossible, and I haven't sold my house to buy bitcoin and keep it in the HW either. I mean, if my bitcoin were stolen I would be fucked but I would not starve to death. I don't know if in your case you sold everything to put it in bitcoin and that's why you are so worried.

[jackg]

I kinda used to feel that way but now I think we need a theory of a way to break hashing before HD wallets are even potentially insecure.

The signature algorithms may be broken by a powerful quantum computer, we have a theory for that (but not the physics) we now need a theory for how hashing can be broken before I'm going to start worrying (but then we still have the physics/quantum problem above).

[Plaguedeath]

In this life anything has a risk, even you're not doing anything in your life, you still have a risk. We could sick, crash during driving, get killed by criminal etc, we can only minimizing the risk all of them can happen to us, but it still has a chance it could happen in the future.

Even you hold your money in banks, there's a chance the banks will bankrupt.

Investing in gold and stock has a chance your account could be hacked or the securities is scam.

While Bitcoin, every contributors trying to improve the security and make sure it can't be hacked easily due to insane new technology invention.

[Jason Brendon]

I'm still not sure if someday i wake up, all my funds could have all gone..

It seems to me that you are naturally insecure. In my case I don't feel insecure with what I have in bitcoin because from what I understand the probability of it being stolen from my HW is so small that it's practically impossible, and I haven't sold my house to buy bitcoin and keep it in the HW either. I mean, if my bitcoin were stolen I would be fucked but I would not starve to death. I don't know if in your case you sold everything to put it in bitcoin and that's why you are so worried.

i agree but partially. Feeling insecure or not has nothing to do with the amount in my opinion.
although chooseing 12 words from a 2048 wordlist is secure mathematically. but mentally, i feel like someone else can just simple choose the same 12 words. (don't argue about the last word being checksum, i am just saying)

You get my point, mate?

[Supianto]

I don't feel insecure at all. I have a BIP-39 password with my seed phrase, you can hack it without any knowledge. And I don't hear about cases when people's seed phrases were stolen like it was nothing.

[Kakmakr]

Well, imagine how every other person in this world will feel, if that happens.. because all the security in the Fiat financial world are built around 128 bits entropy... for example : Banks / Secure websites etc.

I know this was an issue since the early days of Bitcoin, but it has been debated and pulled apart from all angles. Most people seem to think a stronger entropy will be implemented and your tokens will once again be safe. (with it's own issues) 

[AicecreaME]

Don't store all the eggs in just one basket, and as long as you're using a hardwallet or cold wallet, rest assure it is safe as long as you keep your private keys safe as well. Don't also brag in social medias or from your friends that you're storing Bitcoins to avoid thieves, trust no one but yourself, keep your Bitcoin to yourself and sell it when the time comes when you're completely satisfied of the price.

[Justtoons]

Having that feeling is natural, I too sometimes think about waking up one day checking my wallet and all my assets are gone. On the other hand, how safe you keep your keys can also determine if your coins gets stolen or not.

The people you think are the most trusted can be the ones to steal from you.so when It comes to your wallet or anything related to your coins, you should keep them personal. Even your wife can be a treat, I don't trust anyone when it comes to funds lol.

Don't store all the eggs in just one basket, and as long as you're using a hardwallet or cold wallet, rest assure it is safe as long as you keep your private keys safe as well. Don't also brag in social medias or from your friends that you're storing Bitcoins to avoid thieves, trust no one but yourself, keep your Bitcoin to yourself and sell it when the time comes when you're completely satisfied of the price.

And yes you shouldn't keep all your assets in one wallet, try sharing them in different secured location. This is very important so even when one of your wallet gets hacked or stolen, you would be rest assured that you still have something to hope on. But by Gods grace, non of our funds will be stolen.

[mk4]

If brute-forcing private keys in general was already viable, then we're going to have bigger problems than our bitcoin/crypto holdings.

[pooya87]

i agree but partially. Feeling insecure or not has nothing to do with the amount in my opinion.
although chooseing 12 words from a 2048 wordlist is secure mathematically. but mentally, i feel like someone else can just simple choose the same 12 words. (don't argue about the last word being checksum, i am just saying)

You don't choose 12 words from a list, you generate 128 bits of entropy using a strong random number generator then convert those bits to words like an encoding algorithm. In other words don't let the number "12" mislead you into thinking it is weak, it is actually a different representation of a strong enough entropy.

[Darker45]

I can only trust the experts saying the system is secure. That's something which is totally beyond my control. If my funds are stolen because brute-forcing was actually easier than what I've read, I wouldn't be regretting that much. On the other hand, if one day I wake up and all my funds are gone because my hot wallet was hacked or I fell victim to phishing or somebody gained access to my seed phrase, that's something I'd regret so much. And it's because I could have done something to avoid it or prevented it altogether.

[marlo1001]

It's still pretty safe, you will for sure know than computers will be powerful enough for a 128bit encritpion

[Ayers]

In this life anything has a risk, even you're not doing anything in your life, you still have a risk. We could sick, crash during driving, get killed by criminal etc, we can only minimizing the risk all of them can happen to us, but it still has a chance it could happen in the future.

Even you hold your money in banks, there's a chance the banks will bankrupt.

Investing in gold and stock has a chance your account could be hacked or the securities is scam.

While Bitcoin, every contributors trying to improve the security and make sure it can't be hacked easily due to insane new technology invention.

Exactly, everything is risky, and no one knows what will happen in the future. Our job is to try our best, using all measures that we think are safest for us. Everything is relative, nothing is absolute, so don't trust anyone or any technology too much. Investing is a very risky affair, so we need to be mentally prepared at all times for the possibility of the risk occurring. Asset diversification is also a good thing to do whether you are investing in bitcoin or gold, real estate, and risk is all around us.

[taufik123]

do you feel secure in your banks 8 digit password
alphabet +10numbers
=2821109907456 combinations to brute

lowercase alphabet+uppercase alphabet+ 28 keyboard symbols + numbers
=1677721600000000 combinations to brute


bitcoin 128bit key
=340282366920938000000000000000000000000 combinations to brute
even if say 10 billion people all tried to bruteforce a 128bit key
=34028236692093800000000000000 combinations to brute per person
which if asking everyone to do 1million brute s second
=34028236692093800000000 seconds
=1079028307080600 years


however 10 billion people all trying to brute a 8 digit password of lower+upper+symb+num
=167772 combinations per person

do you now see why 128bit is still better than what banks usually ask for when making a password to have a bank account

In accordance with the facts. Bank passwords are only allowed 8 characters no more and no less, and of course, most use a combination of birth date or first child's name, or some other combination of numbers and letters.

But some people don't worry about that, but with bitcoin private keys that use 128-bit keys, they still hesitate and feel less secure.
Bitcoin keys use RSA and ECDSA technology which is the most secure key chains today because if you want to brute-force it takes tens or even hundreds of years for ordinary computers, but for Quantum Computers it only takes years. and Quantum computers are also not cheap and not sold commercially.

Then, why are some people still intimidated by 128-bit keys and want more? They may be too paranoid that nothing is safe.
No system is safe, but the main security is the users themselves.
It is the user's job how each password is secured properly and not exposed by others.

One of them is by securing the device used. If the user is careless, then it is not the system that is less secure but the user himself does not maximize it.

[maydna]

This is about how you can hide what you have from others and don't tell them. If you can take care of it from other people, I don't think you need to feel insecure because at least you know that your 12 words or your wallet are safe with you. As long as you can do it, I think you will stay with your wallet safe and use it whenever you want. Eliminate that insecurity and follow the basic instructions to secure your wallet from all the bad things that can happen. And if you have done it, try to calm yourself and don't tell others anything about your wallet to others.

[pooya87]

Bank passwords are only allowed 8 characters no more and no less,

It depends on the bank and the way you are accessing your account. The passphrases can be simpler or more complicated (short or long).

Bitcoin keys use RSA and ECDSA technology

Bitcoin does not use RSA anywhere in its protocol.

but for Quantum Computers it only takes years.

Wrong. It still takes a quantum computer much longer than that to be able to solve ECDLP.

[ektotanes]

It's normal to worry about the safety of your funds. I feel pretty safe, I'm sure my cryptos are in a safe place.

I think I was more worried about security when I kept my money in the bank. After all, the password there is much weaker.

[Kelvinid]

That insecurities make you feel that holding Bitcoin is no longer safe no matter what you do because you are already been infected with such undesirable emotions and it was hard to remove them. Just take a look at the number of Bitcoin holders and investors, never think that they feel the same just like you but they are confident that 12 words are enough to give them security. In fact, it is not just how we measure fund security as it also includes on how you keep them safe.

[pawanjain]

I'm still not sure if someday i wake up, all my funds could have all gone..

It seems to me that you are naturally insecure. In my case I don't feel insecure with what I have in bitcoin because from what I understand the probability of it being stolen from my HW is so small that it's practically impossible, and I haven't sold my house to buy bitcoin and keep it in the HW either. I mean, if my bitcoin were stolen I would be fucked but I would not starve to death. I don't know if in your case you sold everything to put it in bitcoin and that's why you are so worried.

That is a very good point which everyone investing in bitcoin should keep in mind.
The probability of getting the funds stolen is next to impossible but it sure is not impossible.
This is why we should never go all in on one investment and always diversify our investments.
Even I have diversified my investment in such a way that if my investment in bitcoin is gone then it would be a huge disappointment for me but I won't have lost everything.
There will still be other investments I can utilise and other income I can live off with.

[panganib999]

Hi guys,

Since day 1, I was told that 128 bits entropy is strong enough and brute-forcing it takes centuries.
I get it. But i still feel insecure inside of me...
(and i know adding a passphrase or using 256bits will even double down the security, totally get it)

I'm still not sure if someday i wake up, all my funds could have all gone..

As it stands today, it is virtually impossible to bruteforce and steal bitcoins outright. I understand why you are a little scared of this idea given the fact that more and more powerful computing hardware and software are being released every year, and technological singularity is just afoot. In any case, it's a long time coming and I doubt I'd still be alive to worry about losing all my bitcoins by the time it becomes cakewalk to steal bitcoins from people's wallets. So might as well lay your worries off, provided that you don't swing your private keys around or save your bitcoins on a centralized exchange, because you're as secure as a bitcoin enthusiasts can be, at least for the next one hundred years or so.

[n0nce]

Bitcoin is probably one of the safest ways to store your money in technological terms. It's not just about the private key entropy, that is quite trivial, but also the whole system around it with PoW and everything.
You can also think about it this way: even if you had 100+ BTC, there are still people who hold more than you and aren't worried about the 128 bits. If they would, they wouldn't own that many Bitcoins.

One more question: why 'less'? Did you feel 'more' safe with your Bitcoin in the past or is it a language / translation mistake?

[GideonGono]

I'm still not sure if someday i wake up, all my funds could have all gone..

It seems to me that you are naturally insecure. In my case I don't feel insecure with what I have in bitcoin because from what I understand the probability of it being stolen from my HW is so small that it's practically impossible, and I haven't sold my house to buy bitcoin and keep it in the HW either. I mean, if my bitcoin were stolen I would be fucked but I would not starve to death. I don't know if in your case you sold everything to put it in bitcoin and that's why you are so worried.

I agree with this, I don't feel uneasy because I trust the wallet that I am using and I don't invest or risk more than what I could afford.
Try to use Hardware wallets if you feel unsafe to the current wallet that you are using.
For me it is much safer to keep my money on crypto rather than bank, I think there are more incidents of hacking some bank accounts rather than crypto, of course those who aren't aware or doesn't know how to keep their wallets safe are prone to hacking.

[Artem Sereda]

That insecurities make you feel that holding Bitcoin is no longer safe no matter what you do because you are already been infected with such undesirable emotions and it was hard to remove them. Just take a look at the number of Bitcoin holders and investors, never think that they feel the same just like you but they are confident that 12 words are enough to give them security. In fact, it is not just how we measure fund security as it also includes on how you keep them safe.

Well, the big bitcoin holders have provided enough security; we are talking about ordinary people with <1 BTC. Usually, they are not very knowledgeable on the technical side.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Jason Brendon, if the 128 bit security wasn't safe enough, I'm pretty sure the experts would notice. The fact that it's still considered secure, means research is yet irrefutable. Before it even becomes practical in rational time to work out a private key, we will have moved to more resistant algorithms.

(and i know adding a passphrase or using 256bits will even double down the security, totally get it)

Depends on what security you're talking about. The security of your seed phrase? Yeah, it becomes more difficult to search the entire range (not double, but 2^128 times more difficult), but an attacker only needs your private keys to spend funds, and the elliptic curve Bitcoin uses provide 128 bit security.

[Grantrocks]

The probibility of this happening is 1/115792089237316195423570985008687907853269984665640564039457584007913129639936 there are more private keys than there are atoms in the universe.

ITS PRETTY MUCH NEVER EVER EVER EVER GOING TO HAPPEN 

[Welsh]

Bitcoin is probably one of the safest ways to store your money in technological terms. It's not just about the private key entropy, that is quite trivial, but also the whole system around it with PoW and everything.

It's the responsibility of holding a currency which has no safety net, which I think a lot of users find daunting. I've felt it, I don't know how many times I check transactions when I've sending them. There's a real feel of responsibility since you know it can't be reversed, and you have to determine the fees yourself also. Since, software wallets tend to overestimate from my experience. There's a few things that can go wrong, you enter the wrong amount to be sent, you include too low of a fee or it could be things like losing your seed or not securing it well enough.

There's a ton of stuff that has potential pitfalls, and I think that's pretty understandable to be pretty daunting to a lot of users especially when they're making the switch from relying on banks to being solely responsible.

[Grantrocks]

I made the mistake of not including a transaction fee once. I was making a wallet with python and thought that the fee was to speed stuff up. Boy was i wrong $100 down the drain. This was 5 years ago.

[Dr.Bitcoin_Strange]

I'm still not sure if someday i wake up, all my funds could have all gone..

Sincerely, I still feel this way, probably because my Bitcoin holdings are not stored on a hardware wallet, despite learning that a hardware wallet is the most secure wallet to use. Since I don't own a hardware wallet now, what I did was just split my holdings among a few different wallets, and I just still feel insecure.

[taufik123]

It's the responsibility of holding a currency which has no safety net, which I think a lot of users find daunting. I've felt it, I don't know how many times I check transactions when I've sending them. There's a real feel of responsibility since you know it can't be reversed, and you have to determine the fees yourself also. Since, software wallets tend to overestimate from my experience. There's a few things that can go wrong, you enter the wrong amount to be sent, you include too low of a fee or it could be things like losing your seed or not securing it well enough.

With this experience, we will learn how to make transactions carefully and even the slightest detail will not go unnoticed.
Every time I want to make a deposit or withdrawal, I start to check the wallet address whether it matches or not, the amount to be sent, determine the same network and see how much fees will be charged and see how much confirmation is needed, it will be very important.

Being directly involved from the beginning to the end of the transaction is an experience that cannot be had with a bank.
There is no guarantee when some mistakes are made, but privacy is the most important.

There's a ton of stuff that has potential pitfalls, and I think that's pretty understandable to be pretty daunting to a lot of users especially when they're making the switch from relying on banks to being solely responsible.

There is always the potential for pitfalls. Banks even provide a lot of traps through insurance that is actually not important and they just take a lot of profit from that business. And with crypto the potential pitfalls become a big risk for those who do not understand how to manage crypto.
There are no guarantees in crypto, mistakes or loss of assets are your own responsibility. this is real financial freedom.

[n0nce]

There's a ton of stuff that has potential pitfalls, and I think that's pretty understandable to be pretty daunting to a lot of users especially when they're making the switch from relying on banks to being solely responsible.

I agree. I probably focused too much on 'security' while the title says 'safety'. Although I'm not sure whether OP chose this term intentionally or whether he uses them interchangeably (admittedly, like many people).

Still somewhat puzzled about the intention behind the question specifying 'less' safety. Less than what? Less safe than using banks? Less safe than 2015 Bitcoin?

[PrivacyG]

By the time some body brute forces your Wallet.  Your personally identifiable information has been obtained.  Some of the most important websites in the world have been hacked and attacked.  Pretty much the entire structure of Internet and every thing that sits under encryption is now extremely vulnerable to attacks.  When you wake up realizing encryption is no more, things go down immediately on all sides.

I do not feel less safe than I felt years ago.  I do feel like we are getting some what closer to the attempt of an attack.  But I feel just as safe as I felt before because I know we will find a way to counter any attempt.  This is what makes me feel safe.  I know Bitcoin can change and adapt to about any circumstance.

On the other hand.  While I do expect we are closer to an attack, think of it like feeling we are closer to the end of the world.  We are getting closer to the end.  But it may be millions of years from now.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[Welsh]

By the time some body brute forces your Wallet.  Your personally identifiable information has been obtained.  Some of the most important websites in the world have been hacked and attacked.  Pretty much the entire structure of Internet and every thing that sits under encryption is now extremely vulnerable to attacks.  When you wake up realizing encryption is no more, things go down immediately on all sides.

I think you've got more problems if someone's brute forced your wallet, than your personal identifiable information. Also, what exactly do you mean by personal identifiable information? A wallet shouldn't typically store any of this information. Unless, you're talking about exchange wallets, which technically could store KYC information. A traditional wallet like Electrum or Bitcoin Core doesn't store that though.

Also, it's probably worth noting that most users wallets shouldn't be brute forced. The only way that's happening is if you've personally got poor security practices, i.e a weak password. No one's brute forcing the encryption method used that's for sure.

On the other hand.  While I do expect we are closer to an attack, think of it like feeling we are closer to the end of the world.  We are getting closer to the end.  But it may be millions of years from now.

Attack on encryption? We're many qubits away from quantum computers becoming a realistic threat to encryption, and that's based on the methods used today. It's very likely, we develop quantum resistant algorithms. I mean we've already started developing them, way before a significant threat has even been established.

There are no guarantees in crypto, mistakes or loss of assets are your own responsibility. this is real financial freedom.

However, it's definitely not for everyone. Digital money is the future, and I'm sure a lot of us would like banks to disappear completely. Although, that means we'll likely have people who aren't tech savvy or don't know a lot about security who are responsible for securing their assets, which makes me uneasy. So, I do think that there will always be a need for banks, for the people who don't mind trusting third parties, and ultimately trust them more than themselves to handle their funds. Which, is perfectly fine; I don't need everyone to conform to my views, I just need there to be an option to not trust third parties to handle my money.

I agree. I probably focused too much on 'security' while the title says 'safety'. Although I'm not sure whether OP chose this term intentionally or whether he uses them interchangeably (admittedly, like many people).

Still somewhat puzzled about the intention behind the question specifying 'less' safety. Less than what? Less safe than using banks? Less safe than 2015 Bitcoin?

From what I can gather; they don't really doubt the security of Bitcoin, but the fact that users might pick the easier approach. Take this reply as an example:

i agree but partially. Feeling insecure or not has nothing to do with the amount in my opinion.
although chooseing 12 words from a 2048 wordlist is secure mathematically. but mentally, i feel like someone else can just simple choose the same 12 words. (don't argue about the last word being checksum, i am just saying)

They've admitted that Bitcoin is mathematically secure, at least in regards to generating seeds, but they do seem concerned about users choosing simple words. I don't quite understand it, since most software automatically generates the seeds for you, but I suppose if you wanted to manually generate a wallet you could potentially come up with your own seed list that's within the word list, and import it via that way. However, I don't really see the benefit in that, personally.

However, ignoring the seed generation. There's is a element of doubt I think for most users. I've had it, where I've doubted whether my security was sufficient, even though it's very likely well beyond the average, but you definitely do have those doubts. The more technically minded you are, the less you're likely to worry. Although, I can definitely understand why some users would be worried when they don't understand how everything works quite yet or have never had this amount of responsibility.

Then you have hardware wallets though, which largely take the responsibility off of you.

[taufik123]

-snip-
So, I do think that there will always be a need for banks, for the people who don't mind trusting third parties, and ultimately trust them more than themselves to handle their funds. Which, is perfectly fine; I don't need everyone to conform to my views, I just need there to be an option to not trust third parties to handle my money.

The need for banks for now is still high, I admit that I still need banks today for regulatory reasons that require using fiat as the main transaction.
Crypto is only a commodity asset. Making money from crypto but the output is the bank.

Entrusting identity and money to a third party is inevitable, because it is the only way.
Another option to manage our own funds might be to just use a private wallet on cryptocurrency but as I said, the output would be a bank and it would be Fiat.

Maybe you are also still tied to some banks at the moment.

[cafter]

Hi guys,

Since day 1, I was told that 128 bits entropy is strong enough and brute-forcing it takes centuries.
I get it. But i still feel insecure inside of me...
(and i know adding a passphrase or using 256bits will even double down the security, totally get it)

I'm still not sure if someday i wake up, all my funds could have all gone..

128 and 256 bits entropy is very strong ,
no one can break it easily or never
first if you don't have very big sum of funds that a hacker or someone will \ever try to break this much strong security, because it will not worth it,

second you are ahead in terms of security because you are using bitcoin , it is secure than banks so don't worry ,

[Macadonian]

128 and 256 bits entropy is very strong ,
no one can break it easily or never
first if you don't have very big sum of funds that a hacker or someone will \ever try to break this much strong security, because it will not worth it,

No one is going to try to break it even if you have millions worth of Bitcoin they would try different methods like social engineering because breaking the encryption is not possible and any serious hacker knows it is not possible. There is young people who try to crack it but they do not understand how long it would take and they are not real threats.

[PrivacyG]

Also, what exactly do you mean by personal identifiable information?

I meant to say that if we get to the point where Bitcoin is attacked by QC or what ever other kind of technology, every thing currently living on the Internet will be under risk of breach.  So by the time some body sweeps your Bitcoin out of the Wallet you own, every thing there is about you on the Internet is probably already breached and leaked.  In other words.  There are much higher threats than Bitcoin being attacked.  Bitcoin can be changed to revert or avoid this kind of attack.  Information on the Internet, most of it at least, will forever live there.  And I fear an Identity Theft more than I fear being scammed out or my Wallet being stolen.

Attack on encryption? We're many qubits away from quantum computers becoming a realistic threat to encryption, and that's based on the methods used today. It's very likely, we develop quantum resistant algorithms. I mean we've already started developing them, way before a significant threat has even been established.

Of course.  This is why the fear of Bitcoin being under attack at some point in the future is unfounded.  Most of the risks have been alleviated until now, and any future risk will be alleviated as well.