Should the forum stop advertising mixers?

[Flexystar]

If we take into account your reference to scamming then we should also stop advertising ICO agendas, we should stop promoting any altcoin project that is mostly going to be doomed in the future, or we should probably ban the casino’s who can get shut down or could turn out to be scammer's.

If you also visit the bounty section then there are ton of bounties which are leaving the forum without any payments to the participants.

Exchangers- they are driving crazy these days. Many of them are used, talked, shared and published on forum, what about them? They are ticking bombs all the time!

If we started counting back, then we may just need to keep development and technical related threads and meta. Rest of the forum can be deleted. 

[1714854648]

1714854648

[1714854648]

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[Out of PATIENCE]

Many mixers were seized but it is a first time I read documents mentioned Bitcointalk directly like this by Chipmixer seize.

You're misinformed. Posts on bctalk have been brought up in many legal cases, including several high profile ponzi scammer cases. Yet ponzi scammers are still here and not banned, even one you quoted in OP.

when mixing sites get banned here for promoting money laundering

Nobody promoted money laundering. You're hypocrisy is just wow as you walk around promoting a casino which has been magnet for money laundering long before mixers ever existed. .

Step 1, get a dunce hat.
Step 2, put it on.

Should forum admin consider to stop all campaigns related to mixers?

No not without a court order. If they decide that, they should move to end sig campaigns all together.

Bad people use mixers, bad people use casinos, bad people are everywhere. Why not shut it all down?? 

[salad daging]

Whether the forum decides to stop allowing mixers to advertise is not as important as should all mixers be considered illegal? Is every transaction ran through a mixer an illegal transaction? We all know that people use mixers for illegal activity but are all transactions a mixer incurs an illegal transaction? So, why are mixers needed? Legit question IMO. The days of privacy are basically over.

What about sinbad mixer, are they next?

We don't know what happened next because theymos haven't announced anything about this and I don't think the forums will ban advertising mixers here because somehow it's not being moderated about fraud or other illegal acts.

Usually mixer transactions are just for privacy but once it was only used by the right people, but basically we really don't know whether there is more money laundering because there are lots of hacks so the mixer is a solution for them not to be detected?

subconsciously we are now regulated by the government so much that privacy becomes difficult for us.

[LoyceV]

Seems his alt account was hotpassion

That makes no sense, "hotpassion" was selling Paypal funds for Bitcoin. I always assumed CM was loaded in Bitcoins. Why would they sell small amounts of Paypal funds?

Bad people use mixers, bad people use casinos, bad people are everywhere. Why not shut it all down??  

Almost anything can be used for good and for evil. Tor browser for instance is used by many scumbags, but also helps dissidents in their fight for a better country. Knives, guns, cars, hammers, privacy, everything can be used to hurt people. That doesn't mean good people should give up their rights and freedom.

[Ultegra134]

I wonder how many people used that service, 7 TB of data, lol it looks like they logged everything.

How are they going to pay back? By selling out those who used their services. D'uh.

That should be a lesson learned for everybody. Everything you do on the internet gets logged. Everything. If someone says otherwise, he is lying.

Do you think Chipmixer would have the details of those that accessed their website with TOR browser? Just wondering because their customers care so much about privacy and wouldn't access the site with legit IP. Besides, I don't understand why forum users are quarried about BTT appearing on a government document issued by the FBI. Chipmixer was promoted here by top reputable members, yet that doesn't make chipmixer, bitcointalk. The FBI are concerned about the illicit actions that chipmixer carried out with its customers and the huge amount of money they've mixed without traces. Why did the government appear now they mixed about $3b worth of transaction. If they freeze this forum how much money would they realize? who is their target? the government is after money nothing else. Chipmixer is not licensed that means they've gotten nothing monetary from the mixer yet they are making lots of money with the US citizens. And break laws, its allegedly used to rinse ransomware funds, fraud stores funds, dark web transaction etc. What matters is that these allegation doesn't make Nguyen guilty, until he is tried in court. Until then we'll know the faith of Chipmixer.

TOR is probably not as safe as you’d think. I don't know how, but I am pretty sure I read the news about people getting caught even though they used TOR. Caring about your privacy don't make you a privacy expert in an instant.

In fact, the greatest privacy experts out there know that the best way to remain anonymous is staying offline. Means, not playing this game at all.

They won't go after BTT unless it is in their interest to do so. I don't think we are there yet.

Just Tor itself isn't safe; I've used it in the past and accessed onion links in the so-called deep web just out of pure curiosity. There's still a chance to get caught even if you use a proxy or VPN in combination; it just makes the process harder and more time-consuming.

I'm not against Bitcoin mixers, but it was expected that such a tool would be used for malicious purposes. The average Joe who uses, holds, or trades Bitcoin wouldn't need a coin mixer. Bitcointalk is not liable for a service that is being advertised, as long as it delivers the service it offers.

[DaveF]

Mixers are not prohibited by law.

In the US, a money transmitter license is required as mixers are classified as a "money services business." No mixer has one, as far as I know...

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1574581/download

18. Based on my training and experience, I am aware the Bank Secrecy Act requires
anyone who owns or controls a money transmitting business to register with the United States
Department of the Treasury. See 31 U.S.C. § 5330(a)(1). I am further aware that federal
regulations issued pursuant to the Bank Secrecy Act define a “money services business,” which
include “money transmitter(s).” 31 C.F.R. § 1010.100(ff)(5). Money transmitters are defined
broadly to include anyone who “accept(s) . . . currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for
currency from one person and . . . transmi(ts) . . . currency, funds, or other value that substitutes
for currency to another location or person by any means,” as well as “[a]ny other person engaged
in the transfer of funds.” 31 C.F.R. § 1010.100(ff)(5)(i)(A)-(B). MSBs are required to register
with FinCEN, a division of the Department of the Treasury, unless specific exemptions apply. 31
C.F.R. § 1022.380(a)(1). MSBs are required to establish and maintain anti-money laundering
programs, to detect and report suspicious transactions, and to collect certain records of customers
and customer transactions. I am further aware that bitcoin “mixers” or “tumblers” such as
ChipMixer are considered to be MSBs under federal law. See U.S. Department of Treasury
FinCEN Guidance, Application of FinCEN’s Regulations to Certain Business Models Involving
Convertible Virtual Currencies, FIN-2019-G001 (May 9, 2019), at 19-20.

Sorry to put it so bluntly but anyone advertising a mixer that doesn't have this license is advertising an illegal business (if the business is servicing US-based customers, anyway).

Funny, its actually been the case since May 2019, but either nobody here knew this or the ones who did never said anything about it.

Not saying the forum administration needs to make changes either way, but individuals participating in mixer sig campaigns should at least be aware of this.

You could use the same analogy for people who have casino signatures. Online gambling is not legal in a lot of places.
On that note, how many casinos that people were wearing sigs for cut and ran with peoples money vs mixers?

How many mixers had / have complaints against them for taking seizing peoples funds vs mixers?

As for the amount of data, 7tb is a lot until you figure that the blockchain is 500+gb 2 copies of that and you are at over 1tb

-Dave

[Yamane_Keto]

Seems his alt account was hotpassion

What makes you think it's an alternative account?
Does anyone know if he was arrested or not? Do the local authorities cooperate in such crimes or not?

- Yamane

[bettercrypto]

Do you know the number of scam ads that google may have? Ads can be for scammers.

Stop posting shit please. Don't teach me about theory, things on paper.

I am talking about prevention, not want to see the forum seize.

What the hell did @charles-tim say? after all, what he said was right and he actually had a point about it.

     I don't know if you are just making a big deal out of what you are saying, what he said is not out of context but it is still related to the topic you did, or maybe you just didn't understand what Charles said?

[Cryptomiles1]

Usually every platform has their own rules and regulations, banning mixer doesn't have anything to do over here, let say they chooses to promote their project here on Bitcointalk but Bitcointalk doesn't have any power over their privacy, policy or that concerns any regulation with mixer. Banning them have no effects on the forum, I have seen many projects that scam people that doesn't mean the forum scammed people so those projects were only flagged but Bitcointalk did not ban them.

[NotATether]

You could use the same analogy for people who have casino signatures. Online gambling is not legal in a lot of places.

Or people advertising anything related to bitcoin in a country where bitcoin is banned.


It's sickening that people are considering things like ordinals and mixers to be the public enemy #1, and meanwhile nobody is doing (or even talking about) anything about heists that steal coins from people on a daily basis, or all of the misinformation about crypto being bleated to millions of people daily.

[Synchronice]

Seems his alt account was hotpassion

That makes no sense, "hotpassion" was selling Paypal funds for Bitcoin. I always assumed CM was loaded in Bitcoins. Why would they sell small amounts of Paypal funds?

That's written in government's press-release document. The PayPal account with the name “MINH NGUYEN,” email address - nqminh73@yahoo.com.

On December 27, 2022, there was a credit card payment received from MINH NGUYEN, email address 32 Case 2:23-mj-00528 Document 1 Filed 03/14/23 Page 33 of 60 33 nqminh73@yahoo.com for $150.00 with the comment “Thanks.” This transaction demonstrates the fact that NGUYEN is utilizing a personal payment method to fund operational ChipMixer infrastructure.

He was using kcrewell01@yahoo.com to help hide his involment in the ChipMixer scheme. Phone number +84982468446 was used as the recovery phone number for kcrewell01@yahoo.com. At the same time, this phone number was used as the recovery phone number for nqminh73@yahoo.com, minhoba@ymail.com and minhoba@yahoo.com

Open-source research conducted on the username “hotpassion” used by NGUYEN revealed this moniker is also used on BitcoinTalk where the profile advertises exchanging bitcoin for fiat currency from PayPal accounts. For example, the user posted “Bitcoin to PayPal – Pay $170 get 200$ in PayPal.” In addition, “hotpassion” included a link on their BitcoinTalk profile to their account on Bitify. The username on Bitify is “LovePayPal” and there are comments listed where users purchased balances from PayPal accounts or reference what appears to be the purchasing of stolen identities and identifying documents.

Open-source research conducted on the moniker “minhoba” used by NGUYEN revealed a post on the forum BlackHatWorld (blackhatworld.com). The user “minhoba” posted the following on the forum in February 2009 with the title, “How To Unlimit Your Paypal Acc”

On October 12, 2022, the FBI served a federal search warrant to Google for the account jamessmithhelp@gmail.com. James Smith was an alias account used by NGUYEN to hide his involvement in ChipMixer. The jamessmithhelp@gmail.com account listed the name “Smith James” as the subscriber and minhoba@ymail.com as the recovery email address. Google records revealed a June 21, 2022, email from Bitify, a Bitcoin and Litecoin marketplace and auction site, which described a payment of 0.00455231 bitcoin to the account for the item “Bitcoin to PayPal – Pay $100 get 110$ in PayPal” by a user whose moniker is the same as the last name of the V3 Subscriber from Hetzner.

Open-source research conducted on Remitano revealed that Remitano is a P2P Bitcoin marketplace for buying and sell bitcoin. Records provided by Remitano for those transactions revealed an account used by NGUYEN with the username “hotpassion.”

from Remitano also revealed KYC ("Know Your Customer") information including a picture of an individual resembling NGUYEN holding an identification card with the name MINH QUOC NGUYEN and date of birth 10/21/1973. Also included as part of the KYC is a Vietnamese passport (Figure 6) with a picture (Figure 7) resembling the individual in the Binance KYC picture (Figure 4), with the name of MINH QUOC NGUYEN and date of birth 10/21/1973. Also, the picture ID being held in Figure 7 is the same picture ID provided to Binance (Figure 4). The bank account associated is an account at Vietcombank in Vietnam:

[Pokapoka124]

Chipmixer is the hot topic this week and everyone seems to have a strong opinion on the matter.  It is obvious the government are hell bent on taking down bitcoin, and cannot be in favor of bitcoin mixers. This was going to happen at some point. It’s interesting that Chipmixer wasn’t accused of scamming but on money laundering charges. My major concern right now is the sanity of the forum, I see this forum as very private because nobody uses their real names or pictures and there is absolute freedom of speech. Imagine my surprise to see a old bitcoin post being referenced in the article. I think a more concerning question is “should we be worried about what we post here?”

[Upgrade00]

I think a more concerning question is “should we be worried about what we post here?”

Bitcoin is not illegal and neither are Bitcoin mixing platforms, no one should feel they are doing something shady when interacting with any of them. So, no, we should not be worried about what we post here.
Of course if you're sharing illegal content and violating forum laws and government laws, such user should be worried, but others should be allowed to interact freely without limitations.

[DooMAD]

I think a more concerning question is “should we be worried about what we post here?”

If you have to worry about that, then you also have to worry about everything you write absolutely *anywhere* on the internet.  Any views you express online are likely cached and logged somewhere.  'Big Brother' is watching.  And when someone in power doesn't like what you are saying, expect them to come swiftly for you.  That's the world we live in nowadays.  If we don't defend our right to privacy, we are defenceless to the will of tyrants.

Should forum admin consider to stop all campaigns related to mixers?

It's a resounding 'no' from me. 

[_BlackStar]

I don't know anything, to be honest I was shocked by what happened in the last day here. It's sad that in the end I realized that chipmixer has been forcibly discontinued by the authorities. RIP to Chipmixer. 

At this point I really get the impression that the government doesn't want to let people have better financial privacy. I'm not going to blame chipmixer for providing the best service for anyone who needs privacy, but unknowingly or knowingly chipmixer has become the best choice for those who want to carry out transactions that violate the law including cases of money laundering, terrorist financing or something like that. But I believe privacy is the main idea, but user's greed has really misused it for illegal purposes.

To the OP's question, I don't think the forum is responsible in this case and I'm not sure if admin would stop such campaign forever. The situation is almost the same with some other cases as has been said in some other posts.

[Pokapoka124]

I think a more concerning question is “should we be worried about what we post here?”

Bitcoin is not illegal and neither are Bitcoin mixing platforms, no one should feel they are doing something shady when interacting with any of them.

The government is anti bitcoin and are using every trick in the book to discourage bitcoin. I think bitcoin mixers are about to face a lot of heat. There’s nothing stopping the government from going after other bitcoin mixers. Private cryptocurrencies like Monero and Dash may face similar problems in coming days.

So, no, we should not be worried about what we post here.
Of course if you're sharing illegal content and violating forum laws and government laws, such user should be worried, but others should be allowed to interact freely without limitations.

The forum has always taken care of itself, illegal activities and scams are handled with red tags on the account. I’m concerned about the extent to which the government is willingly to take this case, if they decide to go after the signature participants (which I doubt they will), bitcointalk data will have to be shared with them for this purpose to be achieved.

[m2017]

I think a more concerning question is “should we be worried about what we post here?”

Bitcoin is not illegal and neither are Bitcoin mixing platforms, no one should feel they are doing something shady when interacting with any of them. So, no, we should not be worried about what we post here.
Of course if you're sharing illegal content and violating forum laws and government laws, such user should be worried, but others should be allowed to interact freely without limitations.

This is as long as the bitcoin is not illegal and the btc mixing platforms. What if a country (or a number of countries) passes a law banning this? I understand that users from these countries will have problems, but if something like this is adopted in the country where this forum is hosted? Will the forum have to constantly move from one country to another?

New changes in the world have begun. It seems to me that this precedent from ChipMixer is a serious reason to think about what the future holds for everyone and what can be done about it. In terms of penalties for the use of mixers and their use, as well as advertising on the forum.

At the moment, the issue raised by OP for discussion in this topic, I consider resolved, and there can be no question of any ban on advertising mixers. Because from a legal point of view there is no violation of laws (as far as I know). If there are any bans, I'm sure the administration of the forum will react to this.

[nutildah]

Many mixers were seized but it is a first time I read documents mentioned Bitcointalk directly like this by Chipmixer seize.

You're misinformed. Posts on bctalk have been brought up in many legal cases, including several high profile ponzi scammer cases. Yet ponzi scammers are still here and not banned, even one you quoted in OP.

No he's not. He's saying its the first time he personally read documents that mention Bitcointalk. He's misinformed about his own knowledge base?

when mixing sites get banned here for promoting money laundering

Nobody promoted money laundering. You're hypocrisy is just wow as you walk around promoting a casino which has been magnet for money laundering long before mixers ever existed. .

Wut? Is wearing a signature advertisement a promotion or not?

You could use the same analogy for people who have casino signatures.

Not really. They serve two different functions. Besides, most casinos (including the ones advertising via signature on this forum) enforce some kind of AML/KYC standard to be employed at their discretion. That means they are likely to comply with federal requests for information about accounts whereas mixers will not. That's a pretty big difference.

[philipma1957]

From the above statement, I think we all know that bitcointalk complies with applicable laws in US jurisdictions. If the US government asks bitcointalk to ban that type of advertising then I think there is a possibility for the admin to approve it.

You said it yourself, this is US jurisdiction, not China. So there will never be a request like that. 

Yes, there will never be a request like that. The worse scenario would be US blacklisting Bitcointalk.org if theymos refuses to comply whatever directive they may give, just as Russia did.

Forum isn't advertising anything anymore though it promoted mixer back in the day. We, users are promoting mixers.

I want to understand the distinct in your analogy here.
Forum stopped advertising mixer but allows individuals to advisertise mixers in the same forum. I think nothing changed.

There is a difference but facebook faced an government action by allowing so called bad actors influence the 2020 election.

The reality is mixers are used to hide your identity thus they will always be subject to government interest.

Do I think people are getting busted or sued for running a chipmixer signature and getting paid btc for years no. Is it possible maybe.

[philipma1957]

I think a more concerning question is “should we be worried about what we post here?”

Bitcoin is not illegal and neither are Bitcoin mixing platforms, no one should feel they are doing something shady when interacting with any of them. So, no, we should not be worried about what we post here.
Of course if you're sharing illegal content and violating forum laws and government laws, such user should be worried, but others should be allowed to interact freely without limitations.

This is as long as the bitcoin is not illegal and the btc mixing platforms. What if a country (or a number of countries) passes a law banning this? I understand that users from these countries will have problems, but if something like this is adopted in the country where this forum is hosted? Will the forum have to constantly move from one country to another?

New changes in the world have begun. It seems to me that this precedent from ChipMixer is a serious reason to think about what the future holds for everyone and what can be done about it. In terms of penalties for the use of mixers and their use, as well as advertising on the forum.

At the moment, the issue raised by OP for discussion in this topic, I consider resolved, and there can be no question of any ban on advertising mixers. Because from a legal point of view there is no violation of laws (as far as I know). If there are any bans, I'm sure the administration of the forum will react to this.

The issue is chipmixer has been accused of breaking multiple laws in multiple countries.

People rented signature space.

bitcointalk did not stop it.

Do I think this means action against bitcointalk no.
do i think this means action against signature campaigners no.

But do I think it could happen yes it could.

Hope it does not. As I do not begrudge people that did it.