Should the forum stop advertising mixers?

[CryptopreneurBrainboss]

Why should the forum stop allowing advertisment that has to do with something that has to do with increase privacy when the forum is all about privacy with it's key promotion in Bitcoin. With this whole chipmixer situation, we're acting like this is a new development to the forum. Several mixees has been seized by the authority in the past so what's new here. More mixers will come up in the future and the forum shoudn't stop them from advertising here through signature campaign since that's not officially linked with the forum like the paid ads (that has been stopped by theymos). Lets not forget this mixers hardly get any media to advertise themselves in on the outside world as they're canceled by Google ads and other crypto advertising platforms might be too expensive to use.

Signature aren't moderated by the forum as such the forum administrators  aren't responsible for whatever outcome comes from the signature promotion. At the same time, the signature promoters aren't responsible for the means in which the platform they promote are been used. Will you hold a casino signature promoters responsible for the addict problem gotten from gambling, NO so as such they shouldn't be be held liable for the fraudulent activities carried out by the money launders that use their promoted platform chipmixer.

[1714649660]

1714649660

[Mpamaegbu]

Should forum admin consider to stop all campaigns related to mixers?

What about casinos? If we want to toe that line of thought because we also get that accusation of money laundering from that angle too.

I know forum is against porn campaigns so how about mixers after this fiasco?

Well, I ain't sure that's the way it's. Look at a fresh [Bounty]👑PornAl bounty camping 👑 already staring us in the face.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

What about casinos? If we want to toe that line of thought because we also get that accusation of money laundering from that angle too.

Most of them have explicit anti-money laundering rules written into their ToS. Wagering requirements prevent it.

Sorry to put it so bluntly but anyone advertising a mixer that doesn't have this license is advertising an illegal business (if the business is servicing US-based customers, anyway).

Funny, its actually been the case since May 2019, but either nobody here knew this or the ones who did never said anything about it.

Interesting. I have looked at the unoficcial rules and I see that advertising an illegal service is not in any of the rules listed, 11 talks about linking to illegal trading sites and 17 about trading goods on the forum. But linking to illegal service sites is in murky territory to say the least, in my opinion.

[NotATether]

Why should the forum stop allowing advertisment that has to do with something that has to do with increase privacy when the forum is all about privacy with it's key promotion in Bitcoin. With this whole chipmixer situation, we're acting like this is a new development to the forum. Several mixees has been seized by the authority in the past so what's new here. More mixers will come up in the future and the forum shoudn't stop them from advertising here through signature campaign since that's not officially linked with the forum like the paid ads (that has been stopped by theymos). Lets not forget this mixers hardly get any media to advertise themselves in on the outside world as they're canceled by Google ads and other crypto advertising platforms might be too expensive to use.

Signature aren't moderated by the forum as such the forum administrators  aren't responsible for whatever outcome comes from the signature promotion. At the same time, the signature promoters aren't responsible for the means in which the platform they promote are been used. Will you hold a casino signature promoters responsible for the addict problem gotten from gambling, NO so as such they shouldn't be be held liable for the fraudulent activities carried out by the money launders that use their promoted platform chipmixer.

Most campaign managers place a legal notice under their signature campaigns explicitly saying that they are not affiliated with the site disclaiming any liability in regards to it. And naturally, this extends to the participants as well, though it would be slightly relieving if this was explicitly spelled out too.

[LoyceV]

What about casinos? If we want to toe that line of thought because we also get that accusation of money laundering from that angle too.

Most of them have explicit anti-money laundering rules written into their ToS. Wagering requirements prevent it.

That's all BS. As long as they don't request KYC before depositing, it's great for money laundering. Lose 100k in 9 casinos, and win a million in another. The 9 casinos don't know who you are, and in the one casino you go through KYC and end up with a million bucks legally won "because you were incredibly lucky". Casinos don't mind because they profit from it, and they only ask KYC because they don't like paying.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

That's all BS. As long as they don't request KYC before depositing, it's great for money laundering. Lose 100k in 9 casinos, and win a million in another. The 9 casinos don't know who you are, and in the one casino you go through KYC and end up with a million bucks legally won "because you were incredibly lucky". Casinos don't mind because they profit from it, and they only ask KYC because they don't like paying.

I don't follow you. For starters, most of them have mandatory KYC when your account exceeds 2,000 USD and it counts the sum of deposits or winnings. I mean: you deposit 10 USD and you win 2.000 USD for a jackpot and they ask for KYC, so I don't know where you get your argument from.

Do you gamble in bitcoin casinos at all?

[Timelord2067]

Do you gamble in bitcoin casinos at all?

He's promoted a lightning Roulet website a few times in the past, so I guess that's where his expert knowledge comes from... 🧐


Getting back on topic - I still recall the ones who had warned or voiced concerns that mixers are, was or is a grey area were DT distrusted and ridiculed.  Looks like it's happening again.

I wonder how many now former (signature advertising) bearers of Chipmixer are quietly deleting their posts (or just going dark for a while) ??

🤔

[Don Pedro Dinero]

He's promoted a lightning Roulet website a few times in the past, so I guess that's where his expert knowledge comes from... 🧐

Well he might be an expert in what happened in the past but nowadays, depositing 100.000 USD would automatically trigger KYC in almost all bitcoin casinos.

The fact that there is a low limit without verification is not so rare either. On the Spanish lottery website https://www.loteriasyapuestas.es/es you can deposit and buy lottery tickets online up to a limit without uploading your ID or Passport as verification. I don't remember the exact limit but I'm sure it's no more than 500 euros. You can deposit 100 without the full KYC, and another 100, until you reach the limit and then it won't let you deposit without uploading the documents. The same applies if you win a jackpot. You deposit 10 euros, you win 5.000 euros and you can't withdraw it unless you complete the KYC. They do this even though you deposit with a card with your name on it.

So bitcoin casinos letting you deposit without KYC for low limits despite having KYC and wagering requirements in their ToS is not that uncommon.

[hugeblack]

I am surprised that many were surprised, as if it was the first time that a Bitcointalk ads-powered mixer has been seized.
The same story happened several years ago ----> https://www.zdnet.com/article/bestmixer-seized-by-eu-police-over-laundering-of-200-million-in-cryptocurrency/.

Bestmixer.io has been seized and shut down by European police for reportedly laundering over $200 million in cryptocurrency.

On Wednesday, Europol, the Dutch Fiscal Information and Investigation Service (FIOD), and Luxembourg authorities said six servers used to facilitate the service were seized in the Netherlands and Luxembourg.

Bestmixer launched in May 2018. Only a month later, police began investigating the mixing service and found that over the course of one year, the "world's leading cryptocurrency mixing service" had managed to launder at least $200 million in cryptocurrency on behalf of customers.

Bestmixer.io was a mixer who ran a signature campaign. However, we did not hear much of the analysis that took place now.


I do not know if it was a coincidence, but Bestmixer.io & CM was seized at the same at March 15

[dzungmobile]

I am surprised that many were surprised, as if it was the first time that a Bitcointalk ads-powered mixer has been seized.
The same story happened several years ago ----> https://www.zdnet.com/article/bestmixer-seized-by-eu-police-over-laundering-of-200-million-in-cryptocurrency/.

I knew as I wrote in OP.

Many mixers were seized but it is a first time I read documents mentioned Bitcointalk directly like this by Chipmixer seize.

I only did not know any mixer seize with reports in which mentioned about Bitcointalk.

I do not know if it was a coincidence, but Bestmixer.io & CM was seized at the same at March 15

This is what I don't know. Maybe coincidence.
I read some posts and some posters did not read previous posts before making theirs.

Please don't derail discussions to gambling. It is off topic.
Additionally, those companies have licenses as well as game providers so they are not same as mixers. If you want to discuss about it, create your topic for it but I don't see need to discuss about it as they are legit entities with licenses and advertise them is not wrong at all!

About porn, I meant about rule for NSFW and NSFL. I remembered years ago (2 od 3), one project representstive or campaign manager asked about it by that I knew there were some such campaigns in the past. Likely now it is not allowed (not sure).

Regulations might become stricter but it is not strange. I only ask this question and kind of proposal as prevention solution.

The admins don't have to keep forum alive as well as keep signature industry here. So please don't try to post, claim weekly bonus and think your posts are valid. Imagine you think you are right with your posts today and months later, forum is seized. Don't cry.

Or theymos no longer feel happy with signature and disable it all and return forum to a platform for free exchange of idea but without signature, don't cry!

The purpose of the forum

This forum exists to provide a platform for the free (but ordered) exchange of ideas. If you have an idea to express, then it is probably possible to do it here as long as you follow the rules.

A lot of people come here primarily looking to make money. The forum administration is very happy that people are able to use the forum in order to better themselves; indeed, one of the reasons for Bitcoin's creation was to break the artificial barriers which prevent so many people around the world from attaining prosperity. However, if your attempts to make money conflict with the forum's primary goal of enabling discussion, then you are swimming upstream, and you will not be sucessful in the end.

The forum is likely covered by section 230 when it comes to what its users chose to advertise on their signature.

Interesting, could you share that doc link, please.

I much appreciate some quality posts for the discussion

This topic is not investigation about ChipMixer so please don't do forensic analysis about them here.

Please do it there
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5445014.0

[Out of PATIENCE]

Many mixers were seized but it is a first time I read documents mentioned Bitcointalk directly like this by Chipmixer seize.

You're misinformed. Posts on bctalk have been brought up in many legal cases, including several high profile ponzi scammer cases. Yet ponzi scammers are still here and not banned, even one you quoted in OP.

No he's not. He's saying its the first time he personally read documents that mention Bitcointalk. He's misinformed about his own knowledge base?

We splitting hairs. Either way, he's wrong.

when mixing sites get banned here for promoting money laundering

Nobody promoted money laundering. You're hypocrisy is just wow as you walk around promoting a casino which has been magnet for money laundering long before mixers ever existed. .

Wut? Is wearing a signature advertisement a promotion or not?

Good question, what is your opinion? 
by definition, it is. But promoting a mixer is not promoting money laundering.

You could use the same analogy for people who have casino signatures.

Not really. They serve two different functions. Besides, most casinos (including the ones advertising via signature on this forum) enforce some kind of AML/KYC standard to be employed at their discretion. That means they are likely to comply with federal requests for information about accounts whereas mixers will not. That's a pretty big difference.

KYC is good for governments getting more taxes and cracking whip on common people, but not a good effort to get actual criminals.

Criminals laundering money do not play by the rules and for them any avenue to do it will serve same purpose with or without KYC, which can be faked and is done at their discretion.

[yenerbatmaz]

If I were a member of an intelligence agency investigating the Chipmixer & Bitcointalk connection, I would be very curious to do a deep dive about several things:

1) The owner of the account @ChipMixer was warned many times about severe injustices surrounding Chipmixer campaign management, both in private and via threads like these:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5220060.0

2) The user @ChipMixer chose to take no action and to leave the entirety of the campaign solely to user @Darkstar_'s discretion.

3) @Darkstar_, a Filipino member, also happens to be the forum treasurer, so has won the total trust of not only Chipmixer organization but the forum's own administration as well...

4) @theymos, also warned many times about bounty campaign abuse, collusion between Chipmixer signature wearers to maximize their trust ratings and defame high quality independent forum members to monopolize revenue streams on Bitcointalk, remains completely silent about all these issues for years, also trusts @Darkstar_'s discretion 100%...

5) Chipmixer campaign looking very odd at times where huge parts of the forum and local sections getting 0 coverage while niche sections like Reputation / Meta where the Chipmixer signature cult loves to reside has almost wall to wall coverage thanks to the same cult members circle jerking their own threads and having very similar posting habits... Member Cryptohunter / bonesjonesreturns and few other aliases he used was brilliant in exposing this highly suspicious group, while some other users who also noticed these oddities left the forum a while ago...

All these things are very interesting to me and worth looking into, if only for intellectual curiosity and to get a better perspective on what's going on behind closed doors at Bitcointalk...

[nutildah]

That's all BS. As long as they don't request KYC before depositing, it's great for money laundering. Lose 100k in 9 casinos, and win a million in another. The 9 casinos don't know who you are, and in the one casino you go through KYC and end up with a million bucks legally won "because you were incredibly lucky". Casinos don't mind because they profit from it, and they only ask KYC because they don't like paying.

You're conveniently forgetting that casinos will happily comply with subpoenas for customer information whereas mixers will not.

We splitting hairs. Either way, he's wrong.

Not at all. You, a bitchy sockpuppet, accused him of being "misinformed." You were wrong. If you had something intelligent to say, you'd have said it from your main account.

All these things are very interesting to me and worth looking into, if only for intellectual curiosity and to get a better perspective on what's going on behind closed doors at Bitcointalk...

And you're a sockpuppet in the opposite direction.

Y'all need to calm down and tend to your own lives.

[JollyGood]

Rather than run around in riddles can you at least explain what your point is?

I understand that you are aggrieved because you (and others you hoped) did not get selected on to the Chipmixer campaign and you are celebrating the demise of their website but your jealousy at others being taken on the signature campaign makes no sense to allude there was a deeper connection or collusion between the forum operators and Chipmixer.

If I were a member of an intelligence agency investigating the Chipmixer & Bitcointalk connection, I would be very curious to do a deep dive about several things:

1) The owner of the account @ChipMixer was warned many times about severe injustices surrounding Chipmixer campaign management, both in private and via threads like these:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5220060.0

2) The user @ChipMixer chose to take no action and to leave the entirety of the campaign solely to user @Darkstar_'s discretion.

3) @Darkstar_, a Filipino member, also happens to be the forum treasurer, so has won the total trust of not only Chipmixer organization but the forum's own administration as well...

4) @theymos, also warned many times about bounty campaign abuse, collusion between Chipmixer signature wearers to maximize their trust ratings and defame high quality independent forum members to monopolize revenue streams on Bitcointalk, remains completely silent about all these issues for years, also trusts @Darkstar_'s discretion 100%...

5) Chipmixer campaign looking very odd at times where huge parts of the forum and local sections getting 0 coverage while niche sections like Reputation / Meta where the Chipmixer signature cult loves to reside has almost wall to wall coverage thanks to the same cult members circle jerking their own threads and having very similar posting habits... Member Cryptohunter / bonesjonesreturns and few other aliases he used was brilliant in exposing this highly suspicious group, while some other users who also noticed these oddities left the forum a while ago...

All these things are very interesting to me and worth looking into, if only for intellectual curiosity and to get a better perspective on what's going on behind closed doors at Bitcointalk...

[yenerbatmaz]

Why do you care so much, not even the original Chipmixer cult seems as concerned as you, you (username @JollyGood) were after all one of the troll pawns used by them to assassinate the reputation of many respectable members, kind of a more subtle version of the now defunct criminal user @lauda, but for sure you should also be investigated.

You might ask what your crime is in particular: Defamation, so that your overlords can monopolize their easy Chipmixer salaries...

shame on @theymos for letting a psychopath like you run rampant, give sweeping negative ratings to about 10,000 members and destroy the integrity of a once great forum by receiving artificial green trust & an appalling DT1 (Default Trust 1) status thanks to the collective votes of the Chipmixer cult...


#FBI #CIA #INTERPOL

Rather than run around in riddles can you at least explain what your point is?

I understand that you are aggrieved because you (and others you hoped) did not get selected on to the Chipmixer campaign ...

If I were a member of an intelligence agency investigating the Chipmixer & Bitcointalk connection, I would be very curious to do a deep dive about several things:

1) The owner of the account @ChipMixer was warned many times about severe injustices surrounding Chipmixer campaign management, both in private and via threads like these:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5220060.0

2) The user @ChipMixer chose to take no action and to leave the entirety of the campaign solely to user @Darkstar_'s discretion.

3) @Darkstar_, a Filipino member, also happens to be the forum treasurer, so has won the total trust of not only Chipmixer organization but the forum's own administration as well...

4) @theymos, also warned many times about bounty campaign abuse, collusion between Chipmixer signature wearers to maximize their trust ratings and defame high quality independent forum members to monopolize revenue streams on Bitcointalk, remains completely silent about all these issues for years, also trusts @Darkstar_'s discretion 100%...

5) Chipmixer campaign looking very odd at times where huge parts of the forum and local sections getting 0 coverage while niche sections like Reputation / Meta where the Chipmixer signature cult loves to reside has almost wall to wall coverage thanks to the same cult members circle jerking their own threads and having very similar posting habits... Member Cryptohunter / bonesjonesreturns and few other aliases he used was brilliant in exposing this highly suspicious group, while some other users who also noticed these oddities left the forum a while ago...

All these things are very interesting to me and worth looking into, if only for intellectual curiosity and to get a better perspective on what's going on behind closed doors at Bitcointalk...

[JollyGood]

 

You are deluded, you need help that only professional medical care can provide therefore I have excused your ludicrous outburst.

I never participated in the Chipmixer campaign, I cannot be sure but I might have applied 3 times and was not selected and that was maybe (need to check to be sure) as far back as 2020 and I did not bother applying again as I was overlooked.

I guess it still hurts you that you and your buddies from a particular local language board did not get selected to receive ridiculous amounts of money to wear a signature hence your anger and frustration and somewhat jubilation at what happened with Chipmixer.

Why are you against theymos, Darkstar_ and all those that wore the Chipmixer signature?

Why do you care so much, not even the original Chipmixer cult seems as concerned as you, you (username @JollyGood) were after all one of the troll pawns used by them to assassinate the reputation of many respectable members, kind of a more subtle version of the now defunct criminal user @lauda, but for sure you should also be investigated.

You might ask what your crime is in particular: Defamation, so that your overlords can monopolize their easy Chipmixer salaries...

shame on @theymos for letting a psychopath like you run rampant, give sweeping negative ratings to about 10,000 members and destroy the integrity of a once great forum by receiving artificial green trust & an appalling DT1 status thanks to the collective votes of the Chipmixer cult...


#FBI #CIA #INTERPOL

[Findingnemo]

Many mixers were seized but it is a first time I read documents mentioned Bitcointalk directly like this by Chipmixer seize.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1574581/download

Should forum admin consider to stop all campaigns related to mixers?

I know forum is against porn campaigns so how about mixers after this fiasco?

Posting NSFW is against the forum rules but I remember projects related to porn industry allowed to promote their signature campaign in 2018 if I am not wrong so you're saying wrong info.

Scams are not moderated by forum so even who publicly post a scam scheme the thread will stay and only DT community will take actions against them which will serve as a warning, so don't expect theymos to stop any campaigns related to mixing services and the main purpose of mixing is to get the privacy.

[OgNasty]

I think a more concerning question is “should we be worried about what we post here?”

Bitcoin is not illegal and neither are Bitcoin mixing platforms, no one should feel they are doing something shady when interacting with any of them. So, no, we should not be worried about what we post here.
Of course if you're sharing illegal content and violating forum laws and government laws, such user should be worried, but others should be allowed to interact freely without limitations.

This is as long as the bitcoin is not illegal and the btc mixing platforms. What if a country (or a number of countries) passes a law banning this? I understand that users from these countries will have problems, but if something like this is adopted in the country where this forum is hosted? Will the forum have to constantly move from one country to another?

New changes in the world have begun. It seems to me that this precedent from ChipMixer is a serious reason to think about what the future holds for everyone and what can be done about it. In terms of penalties for the use of mixers and their use, as well as advertising on the forum.

At the moment, the issue raised by OP for discussion in this topic, I consider resolved, and there can be no question of any ban on advertising mixers. Because from a legal point of view there is no violation of laws (as far as I know). If there are any bans, I'm sure the administration of the forum will react to this.

The issue is chipmixer has been accused of breaking multiple laws in multiple countries.

People rented signature space.

bitcointalk did not stop it.

Do I think this means action against bitcointalk no.
do i think this means action against signature campaigners no.

But do I think it could happen yes it could.

Hope it does not. As I do not begrudge people that did it.

I begrudge them a little bit. Ignoring that many of them have attacked me for years for donating funds to NastyFans, claiming it was all sorts of things, meanwhile they’ve been promoting an illegal money laundering service for scammers here to clean their stolen funds for their own profits. Adding insult to injury, when I warned them the DOJ was closing in on Chipmixer, many responded by distrusting me on the forum’s trust network for sounding the warning about their promotion of illegal activity. Now that I was right and they were wrong, any apologies for their attacks or levied punishments against me for being right? Nope, just more insults. At the very least these people had bad judgement and sold out for money, assisting scammers on a site they claim to be trying to make safer.

[coolcoinz]

At the same time, the signature promoters aren't responsible for the means in which the platform they promote are been used.

It depends. Signature promoters are being red trusted if they're aware the business they're promoting is scamming its clients, are they not? So, forum members actively work against fraudulent businesses. I'm not against mixers, on the contrary, but I feel like we've drawn a line in the sand when it comes to deciding what is fair and what isn't. IMO, if it's proven that Chipmixer wasn't deleting data as promised, it should be red trusted. Not that anybody cares at this point. It's not coming back.

Will you hold a casino signature promoters responsible for the addict problem gotten from gambling, NO so as such they shouldn't be be held liable for the fraudulent activities carried out by the money launders that use their promoted platform chipmixer.

It's a bit different because casinos are legal in most jurisdictions, until they start cheating clients. There's a number of bookies in my area and I could go there and place my bets, so promoting a casino in my country isn't illegal, even if someone gets addicted. Casinos are not held responsible for people's mental health, just as liquor stores aren't responsible for people getting drink, car sellers are not responsible for accidents and people driving their cars without a license.

Mixers on the other hand are in the gray area. They aren't illegal, but if people use them to launder stolen coins, the situation changes.

[Mate2237]

Bitcointalk is not here to stop or ban Mixers companies. If bitcointalk forum would ban companies for money laundering, or scamming, 1Xbit would have been the first company to be ban or stop operating in in the forum but bitcointalk forum can only give warning to all my sees to stay away from such company services provided by them and if anyone involved that is the person's cup of tea.

And not all the Mixers are bad and have the intention of doing bad thing. You can't use one man's bad character to generalize others. Chipmixer is bad does not mean that others are bad.