Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se

[seoincorporation]

Many would assume that once a person is trying to be private then something is fishy, this has been the stigma placed on Crypto-currency that all of its users are either scammers or launderers.

Mixing is not a Crime until the person engaging in the Crypto-currency mixing is found guilty. Anyone can want to engage the services of a mixer for anonymous reasons and to protect their privacy.

This is what I've been saying, the mere act of mixing is not crime, Mixers are not criminal dens that brood these scammers and scums of the planet where they can easily trick people and get away with it.

I agree with you guys, Mixing is not money laundering, and Mixing is not a crime by itself.

But the problem here is the people who use these mixing services, 95% of them use it because we get those coins from an illicit source, and they need a way to wash those coins, that's why they use a service like that. And that's the main problem with the mixers.

And is important to remind you that using this kind of service isn't free, so, people pay to hide the source of their coins. So, science it has a cost then is something that people will not do just for fun.

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Defend mixers is like defending guns... Guns doesn't kill, what kills is the bullet

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[franky1]

mixers and tumblers are mainly used by illicit sourced funds..  i understand criminals dont want to wash their dirty coins and get other criminals dirty coins as thats another pointless exercise. so they keep trying desperately to cry out that innocent people should join their crowd.. but thats purely criminal greed to push their dirty coin onto someone else, without caring how that causes consequences on innocent people

the funny part is they say "its fungible" as the lame excuse to pretend innocent people getting dirty coin wont get hit by authorities.. yet if it was "fungible" there would be no need for mixing and criminals wouldnt need to ask innocent people to swap funds with

and lastly. read regulators policy and also terms of service of exchanges to realise that services DO TREAT MIXED FUNDS DIFFERENTLY(anti-fungibility) and DO WATCH MIXED FUNDS(anti-privacy)

so in short mixing does not help fungibility nor privacy

i really do understand criminals hate circle jerking their dirty funds between each other, and they really want innocent funds added into the mix.. but that does not mean its morally, ethically, or considerate to such innocent people you shamelessly try advertising mixing services too

 and yes innocent people are caught up with having to explain themselves and reveal their private lives due to receiving your dirty funds.. which i know you dont care about. but it happens
 and yes innocent people are caught up with having been denied usage of legit services due to receiving your dirty funds.. which i know you dont care about. but it happens

if you lot had half a brain you could work out better methods, which would not harm innocent people.

[Orpichukwu]

in short.. use a mixer. expect to be watched closer.. use a anonymity enhanced currency expect to be watched closer

pretending using a mixer/aec hides you better is the opposite of what happens. it reveals you and highlights you better.. not hide

So in conclusion any one who want to be safe from being watched should totally avoid using mixing service irrespective of which it is.

I also think holding crypto alone in a private wallet which the user have access to alone is enough to protect the holders identity, what's the point of mixing coin when one can just use different wallet for different purposes which am sure could be a little bit private and anonymous for someone else to locate the real owner of any exact wallet providing that you are not making use of a centralized exchange 

[bbigtart]

I am not sure if such grounds are valid in the court or not but with such a big mixer with that much money they should have hired the best lawyer in the US>

In many countries, it could have been based on protection against the data by adding more security such as mixing and creating anonymous fresh data sets. I don't think it was money laundering at all.

Mixing Bitcoins is legal if done the right way and in a country where it is permitted. Bitcoin laundering is an illegal and criminal activity in many countries.

That's why different countries have different laws regarding Bitcoin mixing and centralized mixing can be considered illegal in some countries. However, I completely agree that decentralized mixing is not illegal and can be a safer option for protecting user privacy.

[BlackHatCoiner]

mixers and tumblers are mainly used by illicit sourced funds..

I don't take the time to get involved with you anymore, but you're prohibited from derailing this thread further. You've had your chance to make a civilized dialogue about mixers in the past. Now you're just blabbering the same nonsense. Mixers are not used mainly for illicit stuff. Evidence supports otherwise. Chain analysis (if you took the time to actually do "tHe ReSEarCH", as you love), has noticed a less than 10% being sent there illegally. Hopefully, the same percentage of people who agree with your "moral standard" of what should the users be free to do.

Bitcoin mixers aren't regulated so that's the reason they'll be used for predetermined money laundering by lawbreakers.

Sure, no disagreement. You can't regulate everything, so criminals will always be attracted to beating around the bush.

Let's say the source of your funds are clean but do mixers make the process of concealing the funds' origin legal?.

I'll need a little bit more context. If you're asking if it's legal to conceal the origins of money, then it depends on the country and the manner you conceal it. You conceal the origins of your cash in your pocket everyday unconsciously, but that's obviously not illegal.

[crypticj]

I agree, it's not. But it can be used as a money laundering tool and an effective one.
I think that if we want to see mass adoption of bitcoin, we should admit that some people can use bitcoin as ML and TF. We should somehow try to lower the possibility of these actions because, without that, the government will never fully adopt bitcoin and will be antagonizing it.

That's why I think that dislike of the mixing services is understandable.

[yudi09]

Calling Mixing service money laundering is just another way for government to damage the image of the Mixing service using the recent news of ChipMixer.

There is a unique expression like this; Bitcoin's presence is a problem for banks.
Logically fiat is owned by the government with a more complicated system compared to the simpler bitcoin.
Although I don't understand very well, but the 2008 financial crisis could be the beginning of Bitcoin can be considered as one of the rivals that offers a per-to-per system that can dismantle the banking system where the central authority at that time the bank had a key role behind the financial crisis that occurred.

This article can be a comparison material and can be my knowledge why hit money laundering in bitcoin mixer.
investopedia, 2021

[jokers10]

I agree, it's not. But it can be used as a money laundering tool and an effective one.
I think that if we want to see mass adoption of bitcoin, we should admit that some people can use bitcoin as ML and TF. We should somehow try to lower the possibility of these actions because, without that, the government will never fully adopt bitcoin and will be antagonizing it.

That's why I think that dislike of the mixing services is understandable.

Bitcoins blockchain is fully transparent so it is just a matter of if you have enough computing power and analysts to undertake an investigation. Governments definitely have. So they can trace even mixed transactions. So mixer can be useful if you don't want an exchange to know how many bitcoins do you have (or for some other same purposes of privacy, anonymity and personal safety), but if you want to use it for crime activity then gov will know it and multiple news about arrests of criminals used bitcoins prove it. Bitcoin, even mixed, is not a good option for criminals as its blockchain remembers everything forever: so any bad thing can be discovered and proved at any time even in decades.

[Crypt0Gore]

Indeed, Bitcoin mixing is not money laundering per se, but why would anyone need to use a mixer? The most correct answer is to avoid getting tracked, by whom? Not all Bitcoin mixer users are money launderers but other motives behind using Bitcoin mixer is 80% illegal, criminal-minded, call it whatever you want, since the day I have started investing money in crypto I have never for once think of a mixer, I like the feature of a mixer but most users are into illegal things.

People who don't use mixers illegally are those who believe in privacy, which they believe is the only way to really evade the government and the watchers. Perhaps someday, a more secure mixer can be developed where people can stay off the radar of the government by using one.

For now, I don't see any reason to start using a Bitcoin mixer but I am a supporter, the ability that a mixer possess is more useful for criminals than a normal average Joe, that's my point.

[pixie85]

The most correct answer is to avoid getting tracked, by whom?

Does it matter? By the people who want to watch me.

Why do people cover their bathroom windows when they wash themselves? They do that so people can't see them naked. Nobody cares what people are they going to be, but for the sake of the conversation let's say it's the government that I want to hide from.

Does it imply that I'm a criminal or a launderer?

I don't trust the government. I've seen people falsely accused and prosecuted and I want to stay as far away from my government as I can. I want to be as anonymous as I can, even if nobody ever decides to watch me. That's why we put good locks in our doors and have firewalls on our computers. We don't know if someone's coming for us, but we want to be ready.

[1miau]

It might be because of this matter the authorities take action to seize this kind of service because it's abused.

That's my impression as well.
Especially in late 2022, many big hackers were sending funds to ChipMixer to launder these funds and ChipMixer suffered from this. We had some content about it in our forum and that had been a sign already, that ChipMixer was targed heavily by criminals.
Maybe new mixers can implement some community based (like DT) blocking mechanism, that funds coming from clearly criminal origins will be blocked. It could work similar as DT but it's difficult to implement, especiall because criminals could just do a few hoops to different addresses and circumvent it.
I still believe most mixers are not abused according to our Chainalysis data.

Hopefully, when security standards will increase and people become more educated, hackers will have less success to steal coins and launder them. 

[NotATether]

why Wikipedia is referring gambling as an illegal activity?

I'm pretty sure it means unlicensed gambling.

Mixers are not illegal, even when United States have strict rules that mixers can not abide to

Unfortunately, for centralized mixers at least, you're wrong. In the US, you're prohibited to run a non-regulated money transmitting service; and that's pretty much what a good Bitcoin mixer is. Anonymous and it involves and intermediary who will transmit money. However, that does not apply on every country, and it does not mean decentralized mixing is illegal.

What happens if you are a US citizen running a money transmitting service in another country (like Arthur Hayes)?

in short.. use a mixer. expect to be watched closer.. use a anonymity enhanced currency expect to be watched closer

pretending using a mixer/aec hides you better is the opposite of what happens. it reveals you and highlights you better.. not hide

Well you and I are using Bitcoin which is somewhat "anonymity enhanced" according to people who don't understand how e-mail works, so all of us here are being watched closesy.

[Kalchef]

bitcoin is not anonymity enhanced. its why for years we have been clarifying pseudonymity rather than anonymity. however there are other networks that enhance on bitcoin to be more anonymous

something that simply doesnt ask for ID is much different to something that actually proposes to obfuscate ID on purpose

its way better to actually read the sources of laws/regulations to know how laws and regulations work. rather than forum-bros that just want to echo to each other what they choose things to be

in law. ignorance is not a defence
shooting someone and then saying "i didnt know it was a gun" does not mean you get away with murder

using something thats on a watch list doesnt hide you from said watch list with "i didnt know" or "i prefer"

i have never used a mixer. and i can guarantee you by doing the measures i done. no one can identify/link my main hoard of coin to either my forum name or my real life name.
becasue yea. i do actually do some research and not just ask a forum-bro to tell me what pleasantries oi want to hear to have nice dreams

Franky if Bitcoin is anonymity enhanced the problem will be nearly impossible to solve, if the government can be this frank with Bitcoin mixers then they can do the same with privacy Bitcoin, they will easily ban it and blame it on money laundering and other crimes, I think it is better than Bitcoin ain't a privacy digital currency..

[Supreemo]

Unfortunately, for centralized mixers at least, you're wrong. In the US, you're prohibited to run a non-regulated money transmitting service; and that's pretty much what a good Bitcoin mixer is. Anonymous and it involves and intermediary who will transmit money. However, that does not apply on every country, and it does not mean decentralized mixing is illegal.

If centralized mixers should follow the Bank Secrecy Act and register as a money transmitter, they have to follow anti-money laundering and know-your-customer compliance. But is that possible? If they follow it, that means they are no more mixers but another thing else.

But I am wondering why mixers are allowed on sites like bitcointalk and no regulatory ban.

Just like I said, gambling is not legalized in all countries in the world. Cryptocurrencies are not legalized in a countries of the world, there are over 10 countries in the world that completely ban cryptocurrencies. Because something is not legal in one country, that does not mean it is illegal in another country.

We can just take it that mixers are not illegal. But if they see it having illegal mixing, there is possibility that it would be taken down.

sometimes i often think of the government law as nonsense. they can just declare anything illegal if they cannot impose power on it. i'm not saying laundering is legal and mixing is illegal, but how come they assumed someone is committing illegal actions when they just want to hide their identity? does that mean because they couldn't impose taxes to those who are mixing? are they also considered tax evaders? non of this makes sense when someone is trying to enact law just because it is convenient for them. the only thing that made sense to me is that when you follow the regulations of the government it is impossible to hide your privacy. one more thing for me is that they wanted monopoly in which they want to monitor all your transactions whenever they want that makes decentralization only an imagination.

[BlackHatCoiner]

To all users: franky1 is not allowed to make further replies in this thread. I've already cleared it out in here, but he completely ignored me for once more. The reason isn't because I disagree with what he says, but due to him being multiple times debunked already. I don't endorse to have this nowhere-going conversation with franky again. It's pointless, and I don't want to watch others trying to put him some sense.

The most correct answer is to avoid getting tracked, by whom?

You really don't know that the blockchain is a public ledger?

using Bitcoin mixer is 80% illegal,

Last time I checked, we don't count legality in percentage. And no, it's not illegal, unless you're in some country that says so.

What happens if you are a US citizen running a money transmitting service in another country (like Arthur Hayes)?

I'm not a lawyer. I don't know if the US is hostile to services that are outside its borders, but for one thing I'm sure is they're not hostile with any activity which would make US citizens avoid taxes.

[Jason Brendon]

What if someone owns an online shop that takes btc. It goes without saying that, he can possibly take some mixed (coinjoined) coins. But later, he has to pay the host billings etc, so he has to convert the coins to fiat by deposit to exchanges.
The problem is that: some exchange can freeze the funds for it contains coinjoined btc. That eventually results in funds loss.

Your advises please.

[cryptosize]

What if someone owns an online shop that takes btc. It goes without saying that, he can possibly take some mixed (coinjoined) coins. But later, he has to pay the host billings etc, so he has to convert the coins to fiat by deposit to exchanges.
The problem is that: some exchange can freeze the funds for it contains coinjoined btc. That eventually results in funds loss.

Your advises please.

I agree, this is a problem if you want fiat conversion via CEX.

[arabspaceship123]

That's a risk you're taking. Exchanges can freeze funds if they're traced to coinjoins so why don't you contact your exchange to ask?

What if someone owns an online shop that takes btc. It goes without saying that, he can possibly take some mixed (coinjoined) coins. But later, he has to pay the host billings etc, so he has to convert the coins to fiat by deposit to exchanges.
The problem is that: some exchange can freeze the funds for it contains coinjoined btc. That eventually results in funds loss.

Your advises please.

[suzanne5223]

Yeah. Bitcoin mixing service is not money laundering even Financial Crimes Enforcement Network identifies it as a process "designed to prevent others from tracing the transmission back to its source". Besides, FinCen also claims that mixing "An anonymizing services provider is a money transmitter under FinCEN
regulations." However, when the source of the Bitcoin mixed is acquired through criminal or unlawful it automatically turns to money laundering.

[Wind_FURY]

Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se

No it's not, and mixing/tumbling is actually good to preserve Bitcoin's fungibility. But because there are entities who want to "launder dirty Bitcoins" that went through the Dark Markets for example, then mixing is the only way to "make it clean". Naturally, law enforcement would go after mixers because they know that it's close to 100% that all mixers are being used to launder Bitcoin.

I believe it's time for the community to start researching about applications that we can use from the protocol-level. Applications like BIP-47 Reusable Payment Codes.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0047