Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se

[franky1]

payment codes are not mascarading bitcoin addresses

its just where bob and alice PRE AGREE a 'secret'(privkey seed) so they can both create or know about each others next X number of addresses they both own so they dont have to send funds to the same address to know it gets to the same wallet of many addresses.. because emphasis they both pre arranged to agree on a secret for them to formulate the addresses they will use

its the same as emailing some one your seed. or emailing a pre created list of 100 addresses

the added feature thing is to inform using an op return that your using their wallet key number XX so that their wallet can then scan the blockchain and update its utxo of incoming funds

because usually when someone uses a seed the wallet wont move to the next number unless prompted by wallet user to generate an address. so the prompt is put in a opreturn by the sender to make the receiver then move to next number to scan for receipt

its not about any special tumbling or mixing its just so that people who have relationships can send a second payment to a pre arranged second address without having to ask each time, nor having to send to same address each time

its not complex or anonymity fixing.. and it requires people to enter into a shared key relationship before using
mixers are actually black listed or suspect listed by regulated services because mixers are a non 0% risk factor for laundering.
and as wind fury says the the most opportune method for criminals to clean funds so regulators dont ignore it.
money has never been fungible. thats just the dream/pretend offering but it never has been.

 . the key is actually thinking outside the "privacy" box to offer a service that is outside the "financial service" box that does a different offering, and not be advertised as a anonymity /financial service. to not be defined as a anonymity service thus not be flagged as such. which although does not have such a promotion. the service as a side effect could offer people different withdrawals to their deposits

remember: services offering/advertising privacy/anonymity end up doing the exact opposite because offering such promoted stuff gets them highlighted due to offering it. being highlighted and watched is the opposite of hiding, obviously.

why do you think tax avoiders dont use laundering services advertised as laundering services and instead put property into a countries "freeports" to avoid tax. because a freeport does not advertise itself as a laundering service/mixing service/tax avoidance service. it just advertises itself as a border port with corporate private property law protections which as a side effect means no reporting or auditing

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[buwaytress]

Duh.

We can apply it to a lot of things. I might say, for example, despite recent investigations and exposes in the news, gold trading is NOT money laundering. Used for decades and a known tool for money laundering, terrorism, WMD, etc. But we aren't going after people who trade gold specifically, are we? So just because there are powerful networks that clean dirty money through gold trading -- gold sourced from bloody mines in Africa, routed to Middle East, or to refineries in the US, where it can be freshly sold to the rest of the world, doesn't make gold trading money laundering.

Just because bad guy A used mixers to try and clean his ill-gotten gains doesn't make all mixer users bad guys.

[franky1]

Duh.

We can apply it to a lot of things. I might say, for example, despite recent investigations and exposes in the news, gold trading is NOT money laundering. Used for decades and a known tool for money laundering, terrorism, WMD, etc. But we aren't going after people who trade gold specifically, are we? So just because there are powerful networks that clean dirty money through gold trading -- gold sourced from bloody mines in Africa, routed to Middle East, or to refineries in the US, where it can be freshly sold to the rest of the world, doesn't make gold trading money laundering.

Just because bad guy A used mixers to try and clean his ill-gotten gains doesn't make all mixer users bad guys.

goldsmiths know the loopholes. thats how they get away with it. they dont advertise mixers when they steal nazi gold and african blood gold and smelt it together and then churn out new bars with new stamps. realise how they do it to realise how you lot should do it


but mixers are not trade service. its not a retailer, a smelter. a mine, a shipping company, a exchange. the pure function of a mixer is to tumble and mix funds. which means it has a higher % of people wanting to hide things they dont want governments seeing. because thats its sole/promoted purpose

and so unlike other services that solve other purposes with a unspoken side function of swapping different deposits to different withdrawals. mixing services sole purpose is to swap different deposits to different withdrawals with no real OTHER service in the center to explain any real legit valid reason for usage in the middle

MONEY has never been private. money for longer then all readers have been alive has never been private. money/currency has always had a central control.

bitcoin 2009 was not considered money by the laws. it was considered private property.
it was not until ~2013 where bitcoin became considered convertibly described as currency by law. which changed it from being private property(consequence of being declared currency). meaning bitcoin is not protected by private property laws in regards to privacy, instead its now in the jurisdiction of currency, meaning banking, tax and auditing laws now apply

i personally prefered the days before 2014. but some people dont even take the time to realise the reality of laws/jurisdictions and declarations that changed how bitcoin was treated in the last 14 years. nor do they care to realise what it means to use a service that advertises itself as something that is red flagged by regulators.

be smarter create services that are not so on-the-nose of being promoted as something regulators want to watch, if you dont want to be watched

[mendace]

I agree with you guys, Mixing is not money laundering, and Mixing is not a crime by itself.

But the problem here is the people who use these mixing services, 95% of them use it because we get those coins from an illicit source, and they need a way to wash those coins, that's why they use a service like that. And that's the main problem with the mixers.

And is important to remind you that using this kind of service isn't free, so, people pay to hide the source of their coins. So, science it has a cost then is something that people will not do just for fun.

-----


Defend mixers is like defending guns... Guns doesn't kill, what kills is the bullet

True, it is unfair to generalize the entire gold industry as a money laundering mechanism just because there are cases of abuse and illegal behavior.  This is similar to the case with cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin: just because some individuals may use them for illegal activities, it doesn't mean that all people who use cryptocurrencies are engaged in illegal activities.

[Lillominato89]

Defend mixers is like defending guns... Guns doesn't kill, what kills is the bullet

I'm sorry if I correct you, but it's the combination of gun and bullet that kills, if you have the gun and not the bullet or vice versa you don't kill.

True, it is unfair to generalize the entire gold industry as a money laundering mechanism just because there are cases of abuse and illegal behavior.  This is similar to the case with cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin: just because some individuals may use them for illegal activities, it doesn't mean that all people who use cryptocurrencies are engaged in illegal activities.

Having said that, I share your thoughts with both of you, mixers per se are not promoters of illegal activity, the problem is who uses them and with what funds

[franky1]

Defend mixers is like defending guns... Guns doesn't kill, what kills is the bullet

I'm sorry if I correct you, but it's the combination of gun and bullet that kills, if you have the gun and not the bullet or vice versa you don't kill.

im sorry to correct you. even waving an unloaded gun in a bank, to a cop. or to anyone threatening to kill them. even if you know you have no bullets. they dont. and they have the laws on their side to defend themselves against you and if you are arrested you will still get into legal trouble for waving a gun around even if there was no bullets inside.

just because the NRA tells you to wave a gun around "coz freedom" if you tried doing that infront of a cop. they will shoot you or arrest you. or at the very least have them question you

so dont think that having no bullets means no consequence. dont always listen to the NRA. all they care about is selling you a gun they dont care about the consequences after their sale

fun fact. there have been cases where gun loving politicians that become gun ambassadors. if someone approached them with a gun. that politician will not kiss your ass and be your friend. they will be busy dialling 911 crying that they fear their life because a man with a gun is stalking them

...
translating it to mixers
those promoting mixers dont care for consequences to users. they just care about their own greed benefit they get from getting others to use what they advertise. and when these services/products get in trouble they wont blame themselves for their promotion they will find someone else to blame

these promoters do not know about the regulations that apply nor reasons why regulations apply they do not realise bitcoins definition/categorisation has changed over the decade. they dont realise that regulations DO apply. they just want to stroke people into a zombie status of sleep to pretend laws dont apply just to recruit people into using something that does have consequences, even if they dont want to talk about the consequences

[Lillominato89]

I'm sorry if I correct you, but it's the combination of gun and bullet that kills, if you have the gun and not the bullet or vice versa you don't kill.

 

im sorry to correct you. even waving an unloaded gun in a bank, to a cop. or to anyone threatening to kill them. even if you know you have no bullets. they dont. and they have the laws on their side to defend themselves against you and if you are arrested you will still get into legal trouble for waving a gun around even if there was no bullets inside.

translating it to mixers
those promoting mixers dont care for consequences to users. they just care about their own greed benefit they get from getting others to use what they advertise. and when these services/products get in trouble they wont blame themselves for their promotion they will find someone else to blame

these promoters do not know about the regulations that apply nor reasons why regulations apply they do not realise bitcoins definition/categorisation has changed over the decade. they dont realise that regulations DO apply. they just want to stroke people into a zombie status of sleep to pretend laws dont apply just to recruit people into using something that does have consequences, even if they dont want to talk about the consequences

you are not correcting me, rather you are confirming what I wrote before,
if you have the gun but no bullets you can't kill.
if you have the bullets but no gun you can't kill. simple isn't it?

as regards the advertising of mixers, everyone is free to think as they wish, the fact is that renting out one's signature form is a personal matter, which can be shared or not. I would say that the same problem would exist even if they advertised an online casino, or a bookmaker.

remember, dont trust, verify!

[CryptSafe]

I really have not seen any tangible proof convincing to conclude that bitcoin mixing is money laundering. This is just a service like every other services out there wanting to deliver so as to remain relevant. As we all know bitcoin mixing signifies being anonymous so therefore the mixing process goes along with the sole reason why bitcoin was found. People who chooses to remain anonymous tend to use the mixers so as not to be noticed for their own comfort and privacy.

If i am not mistaken, people tend to use mixers as a result of third parties monitoring their transactions and assets movement which they do not find comfortable with so in that case, they opt for mixers so as to avoid being monitored or traced.

I think the only way to survive the onslaught by the government is to remain anonymous just like satoshi did.  If bitcoin mixers can remain anonymous, irrespective of the threats and sanctions, they can go further surviving the the heat from all corners. That was what satoshi did and bitcoin still exists till today. Any mixer can do it too.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Anyone thinking of bitcoin mixing with money laundering is not real citizen of a country.

Eh?  I didn't get your point there, but I think I agree with your argument if it's that mixing doesn't equate with money laundering necessarily.  I'm pretty sure mixers could be used to launder money or for some other illicit purpose, but I don't think they're inherently evil like the US and some other governments seem to believe.  Some people prize their privacy above all else in the world of bitcoin--like Satoshi, for instance.  And I always think of Lauda when I think of members here who've guarded their personal information intensely, and not just their bitcoin transactions.  Me?  I'm sure I could be doxxed in 2 minutes flat, but I respect people's need for as much anonymity as they're comfortable with.

Governments don't want people to have privacy; that's a fact.  It's been that way for a long time, but I think as technology has advanced privacy (and alarmingly, people's concern for it) has started swirling down the toilet bowl like a tornado twister.  I could go on and on, but I won't.  This is a good discussion to have, but I think it's a conversation some of the bigger bitcoiners need to have with regulators.

[Ale88]

Bitcoin mixing (Bitcoin mixing or Bitcoin tumbling) is a technique used to hide the identity of Bitcoin users. When using Bitcoin, transactions are publicly stored on the blockchain and can be tracked by anyone. The use of Bitcoin mixing helps to mask users' Bitcoin addresses and makes it harder to track transactions. However, the use of Bitcoin mixing can also be used to launder money and the funds are used to fund illegal activities. Therefore, the use of Bitcoin mixing completely depends on the intended use of the user. If used correctly, Bitcoin mixing is not money laundering.

And unfortunately our behavior is at the root of the problem, I find that people love to blame products when it is the user who is responsible for that behavior. What I find funny is that the law enforcement agencies keep pretending that they only see the wrongdoing of these products and blame it.

I pretty much agree with everything you've written except the last phrase: I hate how governments try to take down cryptos all the time, even making up facts or blame cryptos for every single problem there is in the world but if a mixer is mainly used to laundry bitcoins then I can understand they want to take it down. Of course if the illegal transactions are a minimum part than I have no problem with that, even cash and bank transfers are used by criminals but if a specific bank mainly deals with stolen funds then I understand why it must be shut down. Same goes with mixers, they closed Chip Mixer because of the huge amount of illegal activity behind it. The problem as usual is not the tool, it's the people.

[Wind_FURY]

payment codes are not mascaraing bitcoin addresses

its just where bob and alice PRE AGREE a 'secret'(privkey) so they can both create or know about each others next X number of addresses they both own so they dont have to send funds to the same address to know it gets to the same wallet of many addresses.. because emphasis they both pre arranged to agree on a secret for them to forumlate the addresses they will use

its the same as emailing some one your seed. or emailing a pre created list of 100 addresses

the added feature thing is to inform using an op return that your using their wallet key number XX so that their wallet can then scan the blockchain and update its utxo of incoming funds

because usually when someone uses a seed the wallet wont move to the next number unless prompted by wallet user to generate an address. so the prompt is put in a opreturn by the sender to make the receiver then move to next number to scan for receipt

its not about any special tumbling or mixing its just so that people who have relationships can send a second payment to a pre arranged second address without having to ask each time, nor having to send to same address each time

its not complex or anonymity fixing.. and it requires people to enter into a shared key relationship before using
mixers are actually black listed or suspect listed by regulated services becasue mixers are a non 0% risk factor for laundering.
and as wind fury says the the most opportune method for criminals to clean funds so regulators dont ignore it.
money has never been fungible. thats just the dream/pretend offering but it never has been.

 . the key is actually thinking outside the "privacy" box to offer a service that is outside the "financial service" box that does a different offering, and not be advertised as a anonymity /financial service. to not be defined as a anonymity service thus not be flagged as such. which although does not have such a promotion. the service as a side effect could offer people different withdrawals to their deposits

remember: services offering/advertising privacy/anonymity end up doing the exact opposite because offering such promoted stuff gets them highlighted due to offering it. being highlighted and watched is the opposite of hiding, obviously.

why do you think tax avoiders dont use laundering services advertised as laundering services and instead put property into a countries "freeports" to avoid tax. because a freeport does not advertise itself as a laundering service/mixing service/tax avoidance service. it just advertises itself as a border port with corporate private property law protections which as a side effect means no reporting or auditing

Yeah, I know that mixing/tumbling is different from BIP-47/Reusable Payment Codes, but can't BIP-47 help a little in making our onchain activities in Bitcoin more private? For example in the Trucker's Protest, I see it now as both a success and a failure, but if the truckers used a wallet that applied BIP-47, wouldn't the government have had a harder time to sanction the donations?

[BlackHatCoiner]

95% of them use it because we get those coins from an illicit source

Citation required. Chainanalysis suggests otherwise. Even from their recent report, which included Hydra marketplace and Lazarus group, they have concluded that only a 25% comes form illicit activity[1].

Yeah, I know that mixing/tumbling is different from BIP-47/Reusable Payment Codes, but can't BIP-47 help a little in making our onchain activities in Bitcoin more private?

Just a tip: you're making a privacy-related question to a narcissistic, anti-privacy and anti-Bitcoin (altogether) forum user who believes that money had had never privacy to begin with. Very poor choice.

[1] https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/crypto-mixer-criminal-volume-2022/

[Wind_FURY]

95% of them use it because we get those coins from an illicit source

Citation required. Chainanalysis suggests otherwise. Even from their recent report, which included Hydra marketplace and Lazarus group, they have concluded that only a 25% comes form illicit activity[1].

Yeah, I know that mixing/tumbling is different from BIP-47/Reusable Payment Codes, but can't BIP-47 help a little in making our onchain activities in Bitcoin more private?

Just a tip: you're making a privacy-related question to a narcissistic, anti-privacy and anti-Bitcoin (altogether) forum user who believes that money had had never privacy to begin with. Very poor choice.

[1] https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/crypto-mixer-criminal-volume-2022/

I'm merely making a point of asking more about BIP-47, and its capabilities and application to make our onchain activities more anonymous. It would have made the difference between the success and the failure of using Bitcoin for the Canadian Truckers' donations in my opinion. franky1 is a smart person if he's not trolling.

[franky1]

Yeah, I know that mixing/tumbling is different from BIP-47/Reusable Payment Codes, but can't BIP-47 help a little in making our onchain activities in Bitcoin more private? For example in the Trucker's Protest, I see it now as both a success and a failure, but if the truckers used a wallet that applied BIP-47, wouldn't the government have had a harder time to sanction the donations?

payment codes is where there is a partnership involved.

all donators would have to be in on the secret to know whats the next address to use. and they would need to organise who sends to which address so they dont all just end up sending to the same next address,, and due to lots of different donators its hard to do because a honeypot can be done where the authorities become a partner(pretend to be a donator to get in the secret reveal club) and get the secret thus the honeypot then knows the list of addresses


also later(separate flaw) when its time to spend funds received. usually utxos are clumped together as multiple inputs, so unless spending each utxo individually by manually choosing utxo's for input to never co-mingling utxo's into one spend. those numerous addresses may end up being linked later

as for blackhat. he is the person that wants other peoples posts deleted and people banned and tries to tell people that they should not use bitcoin normally and promotes other networks and services that end up messing with people more. and he is in complete ignorant blindness of his actions. he prefers other networks so all insults he says to me apply to him 1000x

he doesnt want you to think for yourself or do your own research he just wants you to follow the group narrative you got recruited into by his forum wife.

even now in this topic he avoids the regulators guidance of how legit services should treat mixers.

for instance he only displays info that echos his preconceived confirmation bias (sounds like stuff he likes to hear). rather then things that are part of the real world. take the chain analysis stats. .. chain analysis only know of SOME criminal activity due to SOME poorly made privacy options. however there are many other better ones that chain analysis cant audit.
EG the police only know about the crimes that got reported. although there are xX more crimes that go unreported. thus crime stats are BS

[Wind_FURY]

Yeah, I know that mixing/tumbling is different from BIP-47/Reusable Payment Codes, but can't BIP-47 help a little in making our onchain activities in Bitcoin more private? For example in the Trucker's Protest, I see it now as both a success and a failure, but if the truckers used a wallet that applied BIP-47, wouldn't the government have had a harder time to sanction the donations?

payment codes is where there is a partnership involved.

all donators would have to be in on the secret to know whats the next address to use. and they would need to organise who sends to which address so they dont all just end up sending to the same next address,, and due to lots of different donators its hard to do because a honeypot can be done where the authorities become a partner(pretend to be a donator to get in the secret reveal club) and get the secret thus the honeypot then knows the list of addresses


also later(separate flaw) when its time to spend funds received. usually utxos are clumped together as multiple inputs, so unless spending each utxo individually by manually choosing utxo's for input to never co-mingling utxo's into one spend. those numerous addresses may end up being linked later

as for blackhat. he is the person that wants other peoples posts deleted and people banned and tries to tell people that they should not use bitcoin normally and promotes other networks and services that end up messing with people more. and he is in complete ignorant blindness of his actions. he prefers other networks so all insults he says to me apply to him 1000x

he doesnt want you to think for yourself or do your own research he just wants you to follow the group narrative you got recruited into by his forum wife.

even now in this topic he avoids the regulators guidance of how legit services should treat mixers.

for instance he only displays info that echos his preconceived confirmation bias (sounds like stuff he likes to hear). rather then things that are part of the real world. take the chain analysis stats. .. chain analysis only know of SOME criminal activity due to SOME poorly made privacy options. however there are many other better ones that chain analysis cant audit.

EG the police only know about the crimes that got reported. although there are xX more crimes that go unreported. thus crime stats are BS

Honestly franky1, and before I ask some people who are smarter than me about BIP-47, is that how it truly works? Because I've read a few blogs/articles and I have never read/seen anything/any explanation about a "nefarious user" needing to be "in on the secret", and getting the capability to know the list of addresses.

[franky1]

bip 47 and their admirers are not going to talk about risk awareness/flaws.. you should know this.. proposers/promotors/advertisers never talk about flaws. they try to get flaws to be unspoken/removed/trampled out of a discussion. as you know

however when you learn how it works and realise whats involved hopefully you can ignore the proposers stroking your head to sleep and instead have a critical thinking cap on and think about how the features can be used against other users involved in the feature

the thing is. for ease of use a recipient wanting lots of payments over time shares a secret with one person. so that person can generate the same address lists as recipient so the sender can send funds over many addresses knowing it goes to the recipients wallets who has the secret, without sending funds to the same address or asking repeatedly for new addresses because they pre agreed on an address list creation method they both share

one utility is if a recipient does not want to set up multiple secrets to have a secret per sender. but instead creates a 'federation"/group who all share the secret making it easy to manage/monitor incoming payments

best practice would be a different secret per sender-receiver partnership. thus avoid the malicious user joining the federation. but some examples of bip47 are that the recipient sends out the same secret to his trusted allies/group/friends so that he has to only watch monitor one set

the flaw with the federation/group is that if alice uses index 2 so could dave. meaning address re-use still occurs

some discussion is that out of the range of index. the recipient says alice use 1-250 chris use 251-500 and so on so that there is no cross over. but the recipient then doesnt have to watch several secrets with thousands of potential addresses per secret. but instead a more manageable watchable amount

those involved in looking into bip 47 are tweaking their promotion/utility arguments. but from the earlier idea's there were many flaws

the end solution is new secret per partnership with no group federation sharing secret.
but in all cases it still involves sharing a secret.

...
i say all this because you used the freedom trucker donation gateway. whereby its lots of people making single payments. meaning a secret per user is meaningless. however the model of the donation gateway having multiple managers with the same secret and they then select individual addresses within the secret range so that funds appear to be going everywhere where reality is it goes to one wallet of the secret

a malicious user can become one of the managers of the secret that is also used for other users/managers

[BlackHatCoiner]

It would have made the difference between the success and the failure of using Bitcoin for the Canadian Truckers' donations in my opinion.

The coins of Canadian truckers were confiscated, because they used centralized exchanges and their government enacted the Emergencies Act to stop "freedom envoy". Bitcoin mixing has nothing to do with it.

franky1 is a smart person if he's not trolling.

I'm not questioning his intelligence; I'm just alerting for his intentions. He is clearly not in favor of privacy, pretty much the opposite.

[franky1]

blackhatcoiner

i do understand privacy far more then you. i also know to actually do research to know how to be most effective

if you read my posts i have never said everyone should KYC their life history. i have clarified that using mixers is not as private as you PROMOTE because your PROMOTIONS fail to inform people that they actually get watched when using services YOU PROMOTE

so its you that does not care about privacy you simply care about earning a commission from PROMOTING SOMETHING

if you actually bother to read my posts and then go do some research on what regulators look for and delegate money services to look for,... you could, if you actually read the stuff... then create a new service that avoids the flags becasue you understood the flags to know what to avoid.. where said new service as a unpromoted side effect does the purpose of privacy

the very fact you promote privacy gets you highlighted as someone that should be watched.

so learn from mistakes and stop repeating mistakes

oh and yea
if you dont want people knowing the colour of your underwear stop promoting, stop waving a flag that you wear pink thongs.. you are going to get noticed

EG
if you want to hide your shopping habits. dont put a bilboard up, of a map of where you shop and make payments and receive payments, telling people they should shop there too..

[BlackHatCoiner]

if you read my posts i have never said everyone should KYC their life history.

Based on your reasoning, you shouldn't avoid KYC, because you're put on some watchlist.

i have clarified that using mixers is not as private as you PROMOTE because your PROMOTIONS fail to inform people that they actually get watched when using services YOU PROMOTE

Completely irrelevant the part where you're wanted by the authorities and the part where you're private. In fact, the former proves the latter. If you weren't private, the authorities wouldn't be anxious about mixers.

if you dont want people knowing the colour of your underwear stop promoting, stop waving a flag that you wear pink thongs.. you are going to get noticed

See, this is what I mean. You don't even understand what's privacy to begin with.


Completely waste of time. Back to ignore.

[franky1]

funny part is im not the one waving my underwear around YOU ARE
you cry that you dont want people knowing your business but then go about promoting it..

i however for a decade have never advertised my stash or services i use nor promoted people to use the services i use.
no one knows my history pre-bitcoin nor my name

sooo angelo
are you as successful or unsuccessful at bitcoin as you were at scrap metal trading