Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se

[Abiky]

taint is a term even early adopter/dev bitcoiners use for the UTXO path back to its proven creation (coin-reward).. its a real thing.
even back then discussions were said about "blacklisting" "colouring" "tracing" coins

its actually part of the audibility of bitcoins open ledger, that each bitcoin has a origin/spending path

taint existed before mixer/obfuscation services existed
taint existed before any chain analysis company started operating
taint existed before any government cared about bitcoin

yep "taint" has been a buzzword in bitcoin for 12+years.. is not something the government invented

Bitcoin is not fungible, so dirty coins can easily be identified on the Blockchain. The transparency of BTC is not a bug but a feature. It's a great way keep an eye of the flow of transactions on the network. This can help detect malicious actors on-chain. Addresses don't have an ID linked to them, so there's no way to tell the coins belong to you unless governments use surveillance/analytics tools. Using a new address for each transaction, avoiding centralized exchanges, and using a mixer would be your best best to help protect your privacy.

Unfortunately, it's hard to remain anonymous when regulations are becoming stricter by the day. There so many limitations aimed to make your life impossible. Governments have done their part by shutting down as much centralized mixers as possible. The public now believes mixing is a very bad thing (thanks to government propaganda and misinformation). Non-custodial mixers will survive, but they will only be used by a small number of people. Expect privacy on Bitcoin to be a contentious subject for a very long time. No one can predict the future, so lets hope for the best. :/

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[BlackHatCoiner]

Bitcoin is not fungible, so dirty coins can easily be identified on the Blockchain.

No. Bitcoin is fungible. There are no dirty coins, there are only people claiming they provide a service which can de-anonymize the blockchain to an extent, and which is evidently inaccurate and based on utter guesswork.

The transparency of BTC is not a bug but a feature. It's a great way keep an eye of the flow of transactions on the network.

The transparency of Bitcoin is not to make transactions identifiable, but to retain the property of open-source, free software.

The public now believes mixing is a very bad thing (thanks to government propaganda and misinformation).

Misinformation appears to be pretty effective based on your post.

[arabspaceship123]

You're wrong because bitcoin's fungible that's the way Satoshi created it. Bitcoin's got nothing to do with identifying dirty or tainted coins on the blockchain. Bitcoin was created as fungible that can't be denied but if we're talking about govts wanting to control crypto by regulating it's a separate point.

Bitcoin is not fungible, so dirty coins can easily be identified on the Blockchain. The transparency of BTC is not a bug but a feature. It's a great way keep an eye of the flow of transactions on the network. This can help detect malicious actors on-chain. Addresses don't have an ID linked to them, so there's no way to tell the coins belong to you unless governments use surveillance/analytics tools. Using a new address for each transaction, avoiding centralized exchanges, and using a mixer would be your best best to help protect your privacy.

[Abiky]

No. Bitcoin is fungible. There are no dirty coins, there are only people claiming they provide a service which can de-anonymize the blockchain to an extent, and which is evidently inaccurate and based on utter guesswork.

You're wrong because bitcoin's fungible that's the way Satoshi created it. Bitcoin's got nothing to do with identifying dirty or tainted coins on the blockchain. Bitcoin was created as fungible that can't be denied but if we're talking about govts wanting to control crypto by regulating it's a separate point.

Yes. That's what I've meant. Please excuse the typo. If each Bitcoin were non-fungible (unique), it would be a hell of a lot easier to identify tainted coins. With BTC's current state, governments can only guess which coins belong to whom and where. They've censored centralized mixers hoping people don't get access to privacy.

Would you imagine if developers added ZKPs or other privacy technique to Bitcoin? That would create a lot of controversy, possibly resulting in mass delistings from mainstream crypto exchanges. With institutional investors getting in the game (Blackrock, Fidelity), it's best to keep Bitcoin as is. If you want privacy, just use a non-custodial mixer or a privacy coin such as Zcash or Monero. Lets hope BTC stays decentralized forever.

[franky1]

blackhatcoin has not idea what fungibility even means


just look at how they treat invested fiat(capgains) different to employment income or inheritance..
look how they treat lumps of $1000 different to lumps of $10,001 at the borders

bitcoin is treated differently eg spent with merchant vs deposited to cex
the issue is not bitcoin itself. its due to being declared a recognised currency in 2013

[BlackHatCoiner]

Would you imagine if developers added ZKPs or other privacy technique to Bitcoin? That would create a lot of controversy, possibly resulting in mass delistings from mainstream crypto exchanges. With institutional investors getting in the game (Blackrock, Fidelity), it's best to keep Bitcoin as is.

Enforcing every coin to go private would surely shake the investors as regulators would be completely hostile to it. That's what I like with bitcoin. Privacy is not mandatory on a protocol level.

just look at how they treat invested fiat(capgains) different to employment income or inheritance..

How the state treats you financially based on your economic activities is nowhere related to fungibility. Taxation on inheritance being different than in your monthly income is nowhere related to cash being fungible.

[arabspaceship123]

A typo at the wrong time doesn't help if you're trying to make a point so thanks for fixing it. I've understood it now & agree about non custodial mixers giving privacy to ppl. I don't know how Zcash works but if ppl want to substitute a mixer for coins they've got try XMR because Monero's a privacy coin.

Yes. That's what I've meant. Please excuse the typo. If each Bitcoin were non-fungible (unique), it would be a hell of a lot easier to identify tainted coins. With BTC's current state, governments can only guess which coins belong to whom and where. They've censored centralized mixers hoping people don't get access to privacy.

Would you imagine if developers added ZKPs or other privacy technique to Bitcoin? That would create a lot of controversy, possibly resulting in mass delistings from mainstream crypto exchanges. With institutional investors getting in the game (Blackrock, Fidelity), it's best to keep Bitcoin as is. If you want privacy, just use a non-custodial mixer or a privacy coin such as Zcash or Monero. Lets hope BTC stays decentralized forever.

[o_e_l_e_o]

That would create a lot of controversy, possibly resulting in mass delistings from mainstream crypto exchanges.

So? Centralized exchanges are scams, which exist only to make profit for themselves at the expense of your security and your privacy.

With institutional investors getting in the game (Blackrock, Fidelity), it's best to keep Bitcoin as is.

Why? So we can sacrifice the very core of bitcoin so we can all make some profit? That's not why I'm here.

If you want privacy, just use a non-custodial mixer or a privacy coin such as Zcash or Monero. Lets hope BTC stays decentralized forever.

I already use Monero (and Zcash isn't private), but that doesn't mean I'm giving up on Bitcoin and letting it be taken over by governments and centralized exchanges.

[apogio]

I don't understand why people claim BTC is not fungible, but XMR is.

Bitcoin is fungible. I can send you 0.1 BTC and you can send me back 0.1 BTC and it will be exactly the same.

USD is fungible. I can give you $10 and you can give me $10 and it will be the exact same thing. Provided that the bills are not damaged of course.

XMR is fungible. I can send you 10 XMR and you can send me back 10 XMR and it will be exactly the same.


Monero (XMR) is indeed more private, being untraceable, meaning that you can't link the sender with the receiver.

However, Bitcoin and USD are both fungible. Indeed in Bitcoin you can go back to the coinbase transaction that created the UTXO that you own. But, so what? History doesn't spoil fungibility. If it did, then you wouldn't lend your friend $50 to buy his favorite PC game, because he would never be able to send you back the exact same dollar bill.


Personally I mix my UTXOs. The reason is not that I am afraid that the UTXOs I own are linked with illicit activities. I do it because I don't want anyone to know how much I own. The history of my UTXO isn't erased after the coinjoins. The only thing that happens is that I make my UTXOs unlinkable, so if someone sends me 1BTC, they will always know they have sent me 1BTC but thanks to coinjoins they will never know which path this UTXO has taken on the blockchain. And YES! Monero has this by default!

[Samlucky O]

Bitcoin mixers is a good tombler, which however helps to mix different transactions and send as ananymous. But people choose to use the negative side of it. I believe the inventor never invented it for negativity maybe for fast and secure transaction to avoid Crypto hackers from tracing a transaction.

But in other words it is also another means of criminal to remain anonymous. And use it for atrocious dids. One thing is for sure, everything that has an advantage also has disadvantages. So we can not deny the fact that it can be use for money laundering. Its just like gun, there is a popular saying that "Gun dont kill people, people kill people" because gun can not on it's own kill a human, except it is use for such.

[apogio]

But in other words it is also another means of criminal to remain anonymous. And use it for atrocious dids. One thing is for sure, everything that has an advantage also has disadvantages. So we can not deny the fact that it can be use for money laundering. Its just like gun, there is a popular saying that "Gun dont kill people, people kill people" because gun can not on it's own kill a human, except it is use for such.

Of course it can be used for money laundering. Of course it can be used for illicit activities. So... ?

It doesn't matter what other people do with their money, just do your part and everything will be allright.

Any type of money can also be used for illicit activities with various techniques. It doesn't matter at all. You are not a criminal if an $100 bill that has been used for illegal actions 5 years ago ends in your hands. You can't know. You don't have to know!

[arabspaceship123]

We know about criminals wanting to remain anonymous that's why they use mixers. So what you're saying to ppl is just because a service exists for average bitcoiners to obfuscate their trades it doesn't mean the service's invented for criminals or they're welcomed to use it. You're right but if mixer owners get arrested they've got to have best legal teams in the world to defend their position or else it's going to end badly for them in courtrooms.

But in other words it is also another means of criminal to remain anonymous. And use it for atrocious dids. One thing is for sure, everything that has an advantage also has disadvantages. So we can not deny the fact that it can be use for money laundering. Its just like gun, there is a popular saying that "Gun dont kill people, people kill people" because gun can not on it's own kill a human, except it is use for such.

[Samlucky O]

But in other words it is also another means of criminal to remain anonymous. And use it for atrocious dids. One thing is for sure, everything that has an advantage also has disadvantages. So we can not deny the fact that it can be use for money laundering. Its just like gun, there is a popular saying that "Gun dont kill people, people kill people" because gun can not on it's own kill a human, except it is use for such.

Of course it can be used for money laundering. Of course it can be used for illicit activities. So... ?

It doesn't matter what other people do with their money, just do your part and everything will be allright.

Any type of money can also be used for illicit activities with various techniques. It doesn't matter at all. You are not a criminal if an $100 bill that has been used for illegal actions 5 years ago ends in your hands. You can't know. You don't have to know!

Definitely sure! Me talking about the disadvantages of it, doesn't change the facts about bitcoin mixer. There is nothing I and anybody else can do or change anything about that. All that we can do is to take advantage of it rather thinking of the negative side of it.

Whatever criminal has don to tanish the image of mixer, doesn't change anything rather making people to know more about mixer, just like the way bitcoin was painted bad. And people still see the brighter side of it. And continue adoption.

[jokers10]

We know about criminals wanting to remain anonymous that's why they use mixers. So what you're saying to ppl is just because a service exists for average bitcoiners to obfuscate their trades it doesn't mean the service's invented for criminals or they're welcomed to use it. You're right but if mixer owners get arrested they've got to have best legal teams in the world to defend their position or else it's going to end badly for them in courtrooms.

Criminals who want to remain anonymous already know that bitcoin is not a right place for illicit activities. If we look at the data from Chainalysis, only 0.12-0.24% of all transactions in Bitcoin are probably connected to crime and more than 90% of bitcoin mixing transactions are made by law-abiding users who just want to increase the level of own anonymity. And the illicit activity percentage in bitcoin falls with years.

So, right, same tools can usually be used for good and for bad, but if we talk about bitcoin it becomes more and more suitable for honest and respected and not for criminals. And mixing bitcoin is also what is needed for honest and respected users as well, so criminal share in it falls like in all bitcoin transactions.

[HmmMAA]

Bitcoin is fungible. I can send you 0.1 BTC and you can send me back 0.1 BTC and it will be exactly the same.

Well , i don't think so . Reality shows the opposite https://b10c.me/observations/08-missing-sanctioned-transactions/?t
Mined bitcoins that never moved or newly minted are not the same as the ones that have a transaction history . There will be a huge demand for those in the future as more and more cases like the OFAC one come forward .

[apogio]

Well , i don't think so . Reality shows the opposite https://b10c.me/observations/08-missing-sanctioned-transactions/?t
Mined bitcoins that never moved or newly minted are not the same as the ones that have a transaction history . There will be a huge demand for those in the future as more and more cases like the OFAC one come forward .

This is a potential threat that some miners comply with the "rules" that organizations and governments try to apply in order to hold Bitcoin back.

What I do know is that 1ECeZBxCVJ8Wm2JSN3Cyc6rge2gnvD3W5K successfully moved to 16r7U7GqbVPeKukgfd3mUN9LCkuoKbfpXM in this block https://mempool.space/block/00000000000000000001bae714c1fbc509fcc40dac3ade7becff09ccd772a3f6 on ‎2023-09-21 06:59

This has nothing to do with fungibility. The recipient received many inputs of 0.0002 BTC. All of them are equal. The difference is that some miners will comply with the regulations that authoriarian governments make.

It's not a problem though.

The address 1ECeZBxCVJ8Wm2JSN3Cyc6rge2gnvD3W5K paid 16r7U7GqbVPeKukgfd3mUN9LCkuoKbfpXM again in this transaction https://mempool.space/tx/34e962671a1da560ada50c453e4f41443ca44cb084dda0d45799e2fbc7a84128 on 2023-10-12 05:07

Bitcoin is ok after all. Let them try harder!

[HmmMAA]

This is a potential threat that some miners comply with the "rules" that organizations and governments try to apply in order to hold Bitcoin back.

What I do know is that 1ECeZBxCVJ8Wm2JSN3Cyc6rge2gnvD3W5K successfully moved to 16r7U7GqbVPeKukgfd3mUN9LCkuoKbfpXM in this block https://mempool.space/block/00000000000000000001bae714c1fbc509fcc40dac3ade7becff09ccd772a3f6 on ‎2023-09-21 06:59

This has nothing to do with fungibility. The recipient received many inputs of 0.0002 BTC. All of them are equal. The difference is that some miners will comply with the regulations that authoriarian governments make.

It's not a problem though.

The address 1ECeZBxCVJ8Wm2JSN3Cyc6rge2gnvD3W5K paid 16r7U7GqbVPeKukgfd3mUN9LCkuoKbfpXM again in this transaction https://mempool.space/tx/34e962671a1da560ada50c453e4f41443ca44cb084dda0d45799e2fbc7a84128 on 2023-10-12 05:07

Bitcoin is ok after all. Let them try harder!

If you think that tainted coins and addresses will have the same value with clean coins then i don't know what to say . Only a fool would pay to get those coins . It would be like accepting to exchange your cash for cash with blue paint ( not a good idea , don't try it ) .  
If someone offered you to buy all the usdt that's in banned addresses would you buy it at 1/100 of it's real value ? or would you consider those wasted money ?

[apogio]

If you think that tainted coins and addresses will have the same value with clean coins then i don't know what to say.

Yes! I do think these coins have the exact same value!

No worries, I don't want you to say anything. Keep doing what think is best. Cheers!

Only a fool would pay to get those coins .

Ok!

If someone offered you to buy all the usdt that's in banned addresses would you buy it at 1/100 of it's real value ? or would you consider those wasted money ?

What is USDT?

Edit: You mean Tether.

Tether is a stablecoin pegged to the US Dollar. A stablecoin is a type of cryptocurrency whose value is pegged to another fiat currency like the US Dollar or to a commodity like Gold.

No I wouldn't buy this anyway. I would only accept it as a gift, only if I could convert it to BTC.

[Z-tight]

If you think that tainted coins and addresses will have the same value with clean coins then i don't know what to say .

Surely they have the same value, the problem here is centralized exchanges and services, and whatever they do doesn't reflect the nature of BTC. Centralized exchanges and services can blacklist certain utxo's whenever it enters their addresses, but it does not mean that BTC isn't fungible, the network is not responsible for what services like Binance does. You should store your funds in self custodial wallets, make use of privacy tools and p2p exchanges and services.

Take note that the idea of tainted coins is a way for the government to attack BTC's fungibility, and if bitcoiners used more of p2p exchanges and services, just the way BTC was supposed to be used without a third party, then maybe these centralized exchanges would not have become this 'powerful' in trying to 'control' the network alongside the government.

[HmmMAA]

If you think that tainted coins and addresses will have the same value with clean coins then i don't know what to say .

Surely they have the same value, the problem here is centralized exchanges and services, and whatever they do doesn't reflect the nature of BTC. Centralized exchanges and services can blacklist certain utxo's whenever it enters their addresses, but it does not mean that BTC isn't fungible, the network is not responsible for what services like Binance does. You should store your funds in self custodial wallets, make use of privacy tools and p2p exchanges and services.

Take note that the idea of tainted coins is a way for the government to attack BTC's fungibility, and if bitcoiners used more of p2p exchanges and services, just the way BTC was supposed to be used without a third party, then maybe these centralized exchanges would not have become this 'powerful' in trying to 'control' the network alongside the government.

You probably don't realise that this is starting to happen at pool level . If pools decide to ban addresses or reject blocks from pools that contain those , things will start to get rough .