Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se

[cryptosize]

By the way, I don't know if blackhatcoiner promotes the mixer usage to gain more profit because he probably doesn't own mixer and profit generated from mixer signature is not enough to live or survive in Europe (he seems to be from Greece). I can't talk about BHcoiner but there are genuinely some people who advocate for protecting privacy.

BlackHatCoiner earns $1200/month (his words, not mine) from advertising mixers.

Trust me, that's enough to live in Greece. The minimum wage is €660/month, so he earns more than that and he even loves shitposting and arguing with franky1 and others to increase his post count (again: his words, not mine).

How are we sure that angelo is from greece

I'm able to confirm it. He has also participated in other Greek forums.

You can also check his posts in the Greek subforum of bitcointalk.

Bitcoin mixing may not be money laundering, but money launderers use mixers to launder money. That basically means anytime someone steals crypto and sends them through a mixer, that mixer is now guilty in laundering money and all those associated with it could also be seen as breaking the law. So mixers are all basically just waiting for their own shutdown.

I'm not in favor of mixing if we're talking about laundering stolen money from exchanges (such as MtGox). Traceability is a good thing in certain cases.

Unfortunately, yeah, some people aid criminals.

I don't believe everyone who uses mixers is a criminal, but you can definitely be associated with criminals and get in trouble.

If people want true anonymity, they should migrate to Monero. I know BTC maxis will disagree, but BTC wasn't designed to do everything and Satoshi disappeared all of a sudden.

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[franky1]

I don't believe everyone who uses mixers is a criminal, but you can definitely be associated with criminals and get in trouble.

i too dont believe all users are criminals.. but there lays the problem.. mixers only worl if they can recruit innocents.. the innocent people with coins unrelated to crimes usually deposit their clean coins and end up withdrawing the bag of crap dirty coins.. thus aiding the criminals by handing them clean coins
the victims are then left being treated as suspicious to a higher threshold as they now have a taint path back to a tagged criminal act before the mixer, but handed to victims via the mixer

[Abiky]

Bitcoin mixing may not be money laundering, but money launderers use mixers to launder money. That basically means anytime someone steals crypto and sends them through a mixer, that mixer is now guilty in laundering money and all those associated with it could also be seen as breaking the law. So mixers are all basically just waiting for their own shutdown.

What if the criminal uses a non-custodial mixer? Would the government prosecute developers instead (considering that they can't shut down the mixer itself)? Considering that most developers reveal their identities to the public, hunting them down would be a "piece of cake". The non-custodial mixer would remain in operation, though. Especially because of its decentralized and censorship-resistant design.

You can see how the US government was unable to shut down Tornado.Cash, despite sanctioning it. Developers even made a fork out of the non-custodial mixer. Be aware though, using a non-custodial mixer to "obfuscate" your BTC transactions would catch the attention of the government (if you're careless). Even if you're not doing anything illegal. I guess privacy on Bitcoin will be a never-ending battle. Unless people stand up and defend their right to privacy, governments will win. Who knows what the future holds for Bitcoin? 

[franky1]

Bitcoin mixing may not be money laundering, but money launderers use mixers to launder money. That basically means anytime someone steals crypto and sends them through a mixer, that mixer is now guilty in laundering money and all those associated with it could also be seen as breaking the law. So mixers are all basically just waiting for their own shutdown.

What if the criminal uses a non-custodial mixer? Would the government prosecute developers instead (considering that they can't shut down the mixer itself)? Considering that most developers reveal their identities to the public, hunting them down would be a "piece of cake". The non-custodial mixer would remain in operation, though. Especially because of its decentralized and censorship-resistant design.

You can see how the US government was unable to shut down Tornado.Cash, despite sanctioning it. Developers even made a fork out of the non-custodial mixer. Be aware though, using a non-custodial mixer to "obfuscate" your BTC transactions would catch the attention of the government (if you're careless). Even if you're not doing anything illegal. I guess privacy on Bitcoin will be a never-ending battle. Unless people stand up and defend their right to privacy, governments will win. Who knows what the future holds for Bitcoin?  

got to love the irony..
transparent open public blockchain... and people want to talk about privacy.

anonymity is different to privacy
anonymous is different to private
and no currency has ever had any human rights or national constitutional rights about financial privacy

people have financial privacy against other people. but not the government
heck even in the UK the government are making laws to easily access people bank account details without court order for those in receipt of social security(pension, welfare)
so dont be surprised that currency does not offer any human right protections, because it never has

[Medusah]

people have financial privacy against other people. but not the government

Not that I agree with this logic, but do you think you have privacy against other people with bitcoin?  Coin control is very limited and you will likely merge inputs together at some point. 

[HmmMAA]

Not that I agree with this logic, but do you think you have privacy against other people with bitcoin?  Coin control is very limited and you will likely merge inputs together at some point.  

Can you find my entire transactions history ? Or franky's ? I have a lot of merged inputs so it must be an easy task .

[cryptosize]

Did anyone notice about the recent high fee being paid? Such a nice trick to launder money without using a mixer, right?

Of course, someone paid 83 BTC fees to clean the money trail. And no, it wasn't a fat finger mistake. Still a bit risky though (if you don't know which pool is gonna solve the block).

People will always find ingenious ways within BTC's mainnet rules, that's for sure...

[franky1]

people have financial privacy against other people. but not the government

Not that I agree with this logic, but do you think you have privacy against other people with bitcoin?  Coin control is very limited and you will likely merge inputs together at some point.  

i have a known vanity address i use for worthless meaningless public stuff

i have MANY addresses for my private stash that i have accumulated over 11 years. .. try to find my real stash.. goodluck
i never used a mixer, but i know you wont find my stash
enjoy trying though

Did anyone notice about the recent high fee being paid? Such a nice trick to launder money without using a mixer, right?

Of course, someone paid 83 BTC fees to clean the money trail. And no, it wasn't a fat finger mistake. Still a bit risky though (if you don't know which pool is gonna solve the block).

People will always find ingenious ways within BTC's mainnet rules, that's for sure...

yep setting a contract with a specific pool to pay them in tx-fee's your value. and they later using a different reward pay you back is a way to get clean coins.. but a 83btc in 83btc out is easy to spot. however smaller amounts can go unnoticed

[cryptosize]

people have financial privacy against other people. but not the government

Not that I agree with this logic, but do you think you have privacy against other people with bitcoin?  Coin control is very limited and you will likely merge inputs together at some point.  

i have a known vanity address i use for worthless meaningless public stuff

i have MANY addresses for my private stash that i have accumulated over 11 years. .. try to find my real stash.. goodluck
i never used a mixer, but i know you wont find my stash
enjoy trying though

Can a chain analysis company find it (since you said you've never used mixers)?

[franky1]

people have financial privacy against other people. but not the government

Not that I agree with this logic, but do you think you have privacy against other people with bitcoin?  Coin control is very limited and you will likely merge inputs together at some point.  

i have a known vanity address i use for worthless meaningless public stuff

i have MANY addresses for my private stash that i have accumulated over 11 years. .. try to find my real stash.. goodluck
i never used a mixer, but i know you wont find my stash
enjoy trying though

Can a chain analysis company find it (since you said you've never used mixers)?

1. my real stash never touched a KYC'd exchange.
2. my real stash never used illicit or suspicious services to warrant a investigation to tag my coins
3. any deposits made into services and out of services never used the username "franky1"
4. when doing private trades or purchases or sales i dont do it using any info of real life or forum persona
5. i wont reveal the other ways i changed things over the years

[Medusah]

i have MANY addresses for my private stash that i have accumulated over 11 years. .. try to find my real stash.. goodluck

What will you do once you need to consolidate them?  Or is that not a possibility?

[Abiky]

got to love the irony..
transparent open public blockchain... and people want to talk about privacy.

anonymity is different to privacy
anonymous is different to private
and no currency has ever had any human rights or national constitutional rights about financial privacy

people have financial privacy against other people. but not the government
heck even in the UK the government are making laws to easily access people bank account details without court order for those in receipt of social security(pension, welfare)
so dont be surprised that currency does not offer any human right protections, because it never has

If the government has a backdoor on either a non-custodial wallet or a cryptocurrency's node software (with the help of developers), then yes, it will be impossible to have financial privacy against said entity. But code is readily available online (open source), so it will be easy enough to detect the backdoor. Decentralization must be preserved to render governments' efforts to destroy or minimize crypto useless. Centralized mixers will be shut down for good. But not decentralized or non-custodial ones. Tornado.Cash mixer is still running despite the sanctions, as well as, its forks.

With Bitcoin getting smart contract features via the use of sidechains, it's possible to build a decentralized/non-custodial mixer that would live on the Blockchain forever (immutable). I wonder what new tactics will governments come up with to prevent people from obfuscating their BTC transactions in the long run?

[HmmMAA]

With Bitcoin getting smart contract features via the use of sidechains, it's possible to build a decentralized/non-custodial mixer that would live on the Blockchain forever (immutable). I wonder what new tactics will governments come up with to prevent people from obfuscating their BTC transactions in the long run?

How about freezing addresses at a pool level ? Forcing big mining farms to point their hashrate to specific pools that obey court  or state orders ? Forcing pools to reject blocks that contain transactions from banned addresses ? Putting devs behind bars like the tornado cash dev ? And much more that are not as obvious right now ? 

[franky1]

With Bitcoin getting smart contract features via the use of sidechains, it's possible to build a decentralized/non-custodial mixer that would live on the Blockchain forever (immutable). I wonder what new tactics will governments come up with to prevent people from obfuscating their BTC transactions in the long run?

you do realise that governments are already defining services that perform subnetwork channel routing as money service businesses.


blockchains and smart contracts dont ask for ID. but when you start promoting yourself publicly and advertising.. guess what. thats how the cross hairs of a target start pointing at you

if you think a subnetwork is private. just check out the "gossip" database of a certain subnetwork, it lists all channel ID, (it maps the network)
heck check out 1ml.com and see how it tags all funding locks to services/names

governments can even hire  analysis sites to set up honeypot's
https://www.fatf-gafi.org/content/dam/fatf-gafi/guidance/Updated-Guidance-VA-VASP.pdf

Virtual asset service provider means any natural or legal person who is not covered
elsewhere under the Recommendations, and as a business conducts one or more of
the following activities or operations for or on behalf of another natural or legal
person:
* exchange between virtual assets and fiat currencies;
* exchange between one or more forms of virtual assets;
* transfer of virtual assets;
* safekeeping and/or administration of virtual assets or instruments enabling
control over virtual assets; and
* participation in and provision of financial services related to an issuer’s offer
and/or sale of a virtual asset.

AML/CFT regulations will apply to covered VA activities and VASPs, regardless of
the type of VA involved in the financial activity (e.g., a VASP that uses or offers AECs
to another person for various financial transactions), the underlying technology
(e.g., whether it uses mainnet or the use of embedded layering or other scaling
solutions), or the additional services that the platform potentially incorporates
(such as a mixer or tumbler or other potential features for obfuscation)

[Medusah]

How about freezing addresses at a pool level ? Forcing big mining farms to point their hashrate to specific pools that obey court  or state orders ?

It recently happened with Foundry:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5475157.0.  But then Stratum V2 was announced:  https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/demand-launches-worlds-first-stratum-v2-bitcoin-mining-pool.  I do not believe that the community will turn into a censorship playground. 

[franky1]

This is what they are doing, they look for any illegal mixing and expose the mixer, but no country is going against mixers in any country without valid evidence of illegal mixing.

and they (using regulated services) get services to look for illegal acts using mixers.. by monitoring and trying to identify all mixer users.. thus making mixer users exposed to monitoring.. thus defeating the purpose of mixing (for users that dont want to be monitored)

for services that monitor particular transactions with more scrutiny. using a mixer makes users on that particular list of extra scrutiny of following their spending paths.

as for running a mixer just developing or running one is not illegal. no one has been charged purely for developing/running a mixer. however if the operator directly involved with facilitating criminally sourced funds transfer, and takes a fee/commission for processing it.. then they are charged

a few years ago, when the bitlincence was new for NYC . financial enforcement agents in NY actually registered with services their home personal address and seen if the service(not regulated) accepted them as customers. purely to honeypot trap them and charge them as running a unregistered money service in NY or for NY customers, without a bitlicence

there are delegates in sanctioned countries that will register their address in sanctioned countries to see if they can move funds through services to see which ones ignore the sanctions

they even have court warranted agents that are allowed to sign up and deal on darkmarket sites and use known darkmarket tainted coins that are on watch lists to move funds through services to see which services allow funds to flow.

[Abiky]

How about freezing addresses at a pool level ? Forcing big mining farms to point their hashrate to specific pools that obey court  or state orders ? Forcing pools to reject blocks that contain transactions from banned addresses ? Putting devs behind bars like the tornado cash dev ? And much more that are not as obvious right now ? 

I can't imagine how governments will be able to pull this off (controlling the mining pools), especially when miners can decide to move to another pool that doesn't promote censorship. With a new mining protocol underway (Stratum V2), it's expected mining to become less-centralized in the future. I've read somewhere there was a decentralized mining pool called "P2Pool" (not to be confused with Monero's P2Pool.to mining pool). Whenever it will take off in popularity or remain a niche, it's yet to be seen.

Regarding putting devs behind bars, I'd say governments are going to have a hard time doing this especially if the developer is anonymous. Just like Bitcoin's Satoshi Nakamoto. New protocols and/or privacy techniques need to be developed in an anonymous way to avoid government prosecution. If the developer reveals his identity (like Vitalik Buterin and others), he would be nothing more than stupid. I know the excuse is that investors will think a project is a scam without publicly-known developers, but this is the way to go if we want to preserve decentralization/privacy/censorship-resistance. With centralized mixers on the brink of extinction, Bitcoiners will have to use decentralized alternatives for true financial privacy. Hopefully, non-custodial mixers and privacy-oriented cryptocurrencies will survive for generations. As long as we defend our right to privacy, there should be nothing to worry about.

[HmmMAA]

I can't imagine how governments will be able to pull this off (controlling the mining pools), especially when miners can decide to move to another pool that doesn't promote censorship. With a new mining protocol underway (Stratum V2), it's expected mining to become less-centralized in the future. I've read somewhere there was a decentralized mining pool called "P2Pool" (not to be confused with Monero's P2Pool.to mining pool). Whenever it will take off in popularity or remain a niche, it's yet to be seen.

I think it's too easy to control pools and miners , especially with the current status . Most hashpower is based in US and China . Forcing big mining farms to commit their hashrate to specific pools will be the easiest part . Comply or go to jail , easy choice . And if you don't agree as a big mining farm , shut down your miners and move to another country by loosing a big portion of your profitability because in the meantime new gen machines might make your investment even more unprofitable . Most people haven't really understand how hard this is for a company that want's to make profit . And the fun part is that people that haven't even mine say that nonsense that miners will move to non regulated pools . They haven't understand how things work , technically and financially .  
As for the stratum v2 , i have explained here why it won't work https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5475844.msg63254857#msg63254857 .
As for the p2pool , can you guess why it's not still present ? Think of how decentralised mining would work , and you will see that there's not such think as the reason to mine is profit .

Regarding putting devs behind bars, I'd say governments are going to have a hard time doing this especially if the developer is anonymous. Just like Bitcoin's Satoshi Nakamoto. New protocols and/or privacy techniques need to be developed in an anonymous way to avoid government prosecution. If the developer reveals his identity (like Vitalik Buterin and others), he would be nothing more than stupid. I know the excuse is that investors will think a project is a scam without publicly-known developers, but this is the way to go if we want to preserve decentralization/privacy/censorship-resistance. With centralized mixers on the brink of extinction, Bitcoiners will have to use decentralized alternatives for true financial privacy. Hopefully, non-custodial mixers and privacy-oriented cryptocurrencies will survive for generations. As long as we defend our right to privacy, there should be nothing to worry about.

Full anonymity on the internet is a no go . If three letter agencies decide to track you down , you are doomed .

[cryptosize]

Full anonymity on the internet is a no go . If three letter agencies decide to track you down , you are doomed .

Sure, it's not easy, but care to explain how Satoshi's identity still remains a secret 15+ years after BTC's announcement/whitepaper?

[franky1]

Full anonymity on the internet is a no go . If three letter agencies decide to track you down , you are doomed .

Sure, it's not easy, but care to explain how Satoshi's identity still remains a secret 15+ years after BTC's announcement/whitepaper?

default, zero effort anonymity online is a no go
people actually have to put in personal effort to disguise themselves. this includes learning what agencies look for to then know what to evade doing

EG
if they are now particularly interested in watching users of mixers.. dont use mixers, because using them you will be on a watch list

i would not be surprised if theymos had been contacted by monitoring services to pass them metadata* about forum users whom overtly advertise mixing

*ip addresses, geo locations, sign up email addresses, session data, etc
https://bitcointalk.org/privacy.php