Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se

[cryptosize]

Full anonymity on the internet is a no go . If three letter agencies decide to track you down , you are doomed .

Sure, it's not easy, but care to explain how Satoshi's identity still remains a secret 15+ years after BTC's announcement/whitepaper?

default, zero effort anonymity online is a no go
people actually have to put in personal effort to disguise themselves. this includes learning what agencies look for to then know what to evade doing

EG
if they are now particularly interested in watching users of mixers.. dont use mixers, because using them you will be on a watch list

i would not be surprised if theymos had been contacted by monitoring services to pass them metadata* about forum users whom overtly advertise mixing

*ip addresses, geo locations, sign up email addresses, session data, etc
https://bitcointalk.org/privacy.php

This still doesn't answer my question regarding Satoshi's secret identity... I never said he used mixers or gmail/hotmail or his real IP (Tor exists for a reason).

[arabspaceship123]

If what you're saying's true it's eating at users privacy. You're saying you wouldn't be surprised if it happened that's better than saying it's definitely done. I don't know if theymos would give users info to govts before starting a thread explaining what he's doing but it's scary times.

i would not be surprised if theymos had been contacted by monitoring services to pass them metadata* about forum users whom overtly advertise mixing

*ip addresses, geo locations, sign up email addresses, session data, etc
https://bitcointalk.org/privacy.php

[franky1]

If what you're saying's true it's eating at users privacy. You're saying you wouldn't be surprised if it happened that's better than saying it's definitely done. I don't know if theymos would give users info to govts before starting a thread explaining what he's doing but it's scary times.

i would not be surprised if theymos had been contacted by monitoring services to pass them metadata* about forum users whom overtly advertise mixing

*ip addresses, geo locations, sign up email addresses, session data, etc
https://bitcointalk.org/privacy.php

this is a PUBLIC forum. you have no sense of privacy in public unless you create it for yourself

This is a best-effort attempt at describing our current practices regarding privacy-relevant concerns, and is not an agreement.

It's possible to use bitcointalk.org without submitting any personal info. Use Tor + a throwaway email + a new pseudonym, etc. If you care about preventing personal information from being collected on bitcointalk.org, then preventing this collection is your responsibility.

Variation
Variation from the above normal procedure may occur, for example, due to these causes:

    Bitcointalk.org is in US jurisdiction, and is subject to US subpoenas, wiretap orders, preservation orders (which would negate the above retention rules), and similar. Furthermore, our service providers could also be subject to similar orders without our knowledge. Note that we consider PMs to require a warrant in order to be released.
    At our sole discretion, we may voluntarily assist law enforcement worldwide. Generally we do this only when we perceive that the target user has probably committed a serious and non-victimless crime.
    At our sole discretion, we may (noncommercially) share or extend retention on any of a specific user's userdata even without law-enforcement involvement. This is very rare.
    While we don't intentionally set up systems to do so, data may end up laying around for longer than the above-specified retention limits accidentally. For example, a sysadmin might copy the access logs in order to analyze an ongoing DDoS attack and then forget to delete them for a while.
    Computer security can never be guaranteed.

too many people ignorantly think that just because bitcoin does not ask for ID. that businesses and services can bypass laws, sorry the real world doesnt work like that

people have to put their own effort into what information they give away and find ways to prevent the hidden metadata their own computers give away. its not upto a business to work for you, you have to work for yourself

[arabspaceship123]

franky1 you're right it's a public forum so we don't have privacy but that's about public posting. There's actions which aren't public but gets collected by the site like email & ip addresses. We're expecting those info's going to be kept private but if we're going to protect our data we've got to follow steps limiting what we're giving away.

[franky1]

franky1 you're right it's a public forum so we don't have privacy but that's about public posting. There's actions which aren't public but gets collected by the site like email & ip addresses. We're expecting those info's going to be kept private but if we're going to protect our data we've got to follow steps limiting what we're giving away.

you "expect". again just because its a bitcoin forum dont expect anonymity by default. try reading a services terms and conditions.. businesses and services are not "bitcoin"

try reading the privacy link

it explicitly says  what i even quoted and red highlighted..
if you dont want your IP disclosed its upto YOU to use tor/proxy/vpn.. its not theymos's job to get fined and in trouble if subpoena'd, by refusing a court order
he is not going to put loyalty to you as some data guard above his own freedom. nor should he.

also its not just IP data.
if you write something in a PM to another user. expect the content of that to also be supplied if a court order asks for it
its up to you to not reveal secrets on the forum even in PM's.. if you dont want people to know it, dont say it

[HmmMAA]

Full anonymity on the internet is a no go . If three letter agencies decide to track you down , you are doomed .

Sure, it's not easy, but care to explain how Satoshi's identity still remains a secret 15+ years after BTC's announcement/whitepaper?

You fail to understand that you are not the all seeing eye . That you or i don't know who satoshi is , doesn't mean that satoshi's identity isn't known to everyone . Who are the ones that know it ? If i had to guess , people close to him that are good in keeping secrets . Oh , and of course three letter agencies , if an order to find him was given at some point .

[arabspaceship123]

That's true you're right theymos can't compromise his own freedom by refusing a subpoena or court order so it's users own actions which's protecting their privacy. If they're using tor there's less info stored in the forum server that's true. Every user should have attention to the info you've red highlighted.

you "expect". again just because its a bitcoin forum dont expect anonymity by default. try reading a services terms and conditions.. businesses and services are not "bitcoin"

try reading the privacy link

it explicitly says  what i even quoted and red highlighted..
if you dont want your IP disclosed its upto YOU to use tor/proxy/vpn.. its not theymos's job to get fined and in trouble if subpoena'd, by refusing a court order
he is not going to put loyalty to you as some data guard above his own freedom. nor should he.

also its not just IP data.
if you write something in a PM to another user. expect the content of that to also be supplied if a court order asks for it
its up to you to not reveal secrets on the forum even in PM's.. if you dont want people to know it, dont say it

[Litzki1990]

Mixers are usually used to avoid government taxes. Mixer allows you to trade your bitcoins in the most confidential manner. Since transactions are completed secretly through mixers even with official approval, it would not be wrong to consider it as illegal, but it cannot be compared to money laundering. We have learned several times how bad money laundering is. There's a good reason Mixer has been criticized so much lately because there have been several popular Mixer campaigns on this forum that ended up being scams. The forum may have decided not to allow any more mixer campaigns on this forum due to popular mixers being scams so as not to damage the forum's reputation.

[arabspaceship123]

That's what it looks like. Things happened so theymos decided to ban mixers because it's realistically going to damage the forum. I'm with UniJoin sig campaign so I'll be affected but if protecting the forum's rep is a priority for users it shouldn't be a problem when banning mixers from 1st Jan happens.

The forum may have decided not to allow any more mixer campaigns on this forum due to popular mixers being scams so as not to damage the forum's reputation.

[darkangel11]

Mixers are usually used to avoid government taxes.

How do you know that? Show me statistics that say that 60% of all coins that went through mixers were later used to hide from taxation. Most people don't have to mix coins to avoid taxes. They just need to exchange privately into cash and boom, nobody can prove that you bought something with your bitcoin. You can go to a post office, pay your bills with cash and there's no trace it came from bitcoin.

Even if you could prove that statement (which you can't) is avoiding taxes really a bad thing from the point of view of an average citizen? I always thought that if laws are unjust we shouldn't obey them.

[Twentyonepaylots]

Mixers are usually used to avoid government taxes.

It happened that they knew about this. We would not know if someone is trying to evade taxes from government or mixing cryptocurrencies from illegal activities such as hacking.

Mixer allows you to trade your bitcoins in the most confidential manner. Since transactions are completed secretly through mixers even with official approval, it would not be wrong to consider it as illegal, but it cannot be compared to money laundering.

How can we know that it cannot be compared to money laundering? we know for a fact that hackers/frauds are using mixers to avoid being caught though this is hard to explain because we can't have a proof.

We have learned several times how bad money laundering is. There's a good reason Mixer has been criticized so much lately because there have been several popular Mixer campaigns on this forum that ended up being scams. The forum may have decided not to allow any more mixer campaigns on this forum due to popular mixers being scams so as not to damage the forum's reputation.

Theymos are keeping the forum's best interest, not to taint it with some bad reputation in public so he did it. I would agree with his decision to ban it in the forum as it will cause chaos to the forum in any time possible if he didn't do it. Good thing he gave us all an ample time and didn't ban it right away.

[cryptosize]

Full anonymity on the internet is a no go . If three letter agencies decide to track you down , you are doomed .

Sure, it's not easy, but care to explain how Satoshi's identity still remains a secret 15+ years after BTC's announcement/whitepaper?

You fail to understand that you are not the all seeing eye . That you or i don't know who satoshi is , doesn't mean that satoshi's identity isn't known to everyone . Who are the ones that know it ? If i had to guess , people close to him that are good in keeping secrets . Oh , and of course three letter agencies , if an order to find him was given at some point .

And three-letter agencies have done absolutely nothing regarding Satoshi during the last 15 years because...?

[Abiky]

I think it's too easy to control pools and miners , especially with the current status . Most hashpower is based in US and China . Forcing big mining farms to commit their hashrate to specific pools will be the easiest part . Comply or go to jail , easy choice . And if you don't agree as a big mining farm , shut down your miners and move to another country by loosing a big portion of your profitability because in the meantime new gen machines might make your investment even more unprofitable . Most people haven't really understand how hard this is for a company that want's to make profit . And the fun part is that people that haven't even mine say that nonsense that miners will move to non regulated pools . They haven't understand how things work , technically and financially .  
As for the stratum v2 , i have explained here why it won't work https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5475844.msg63254857#msg63254857 .
As for the p2pool , can you guess why it's not still present ? Think of how decentralised mining would work , and you will see that there's not such think as the reason to mine is profit .

There are a few countries with a large concentration of hashrate (mainly the US and China) on the BTC blockchain. But that doesn't it's the end of the world. If Bitcoin becomes compromised, the minority can create a new chain with decentralization/censorship-resistance in mind. Centralized mixers on the other hand, can be stopped because of the way they're designed. That's where non-custodial (decentralized) mixers come in. People can still enjoy financial privacy on Bitcoin by using these alternatives.

Even if governments declare bitcoin mixing "illegal", there's nothing stopping anyone from doing it secretly. There will be a truly-decentralized economy that no government will be able to get its hands on it. Decentralization must be preserved to render governments' attempts to destroy crypto futile. BTC has gone this far despite strong opposition from banks and governments worldwide. So I'm certain it will survive another 1-2 decades from now. Who knows if BTC ultimately beats Fiat currencies for good?

[AHOYBRAUSE]

Mixers are usually used to avoid government taxes.

How do you know that? Show me statistics that say that 60% of all coins that went through mixers were later used to hide from taxation. Most people don't have to mix coins to avoid taxes. They just need to exchange privately into cash and boom, nobody can prove that you bought something with your bitcoin. You can go to a post office, pay your bills with cash and there's no trace it came from bitcoin.

Even if you could prove that statement (which you can't) is avoiding taxes really a bad thing from the point of view of an average citizen? I always thought that if laws are unjust we shouldn't obey them.

Word, my thought exactly.
I don't understand why mixers get such a bad rep!! I mean people like privacy, where is the problem in that.
Sure there are some that use mixers for no so legal reasons but you can't throw all users in 1 pot, that's just not right!

I used mixers before, not to hide anything, not to circumvent taxes, not for anything illegal, just for straight up security of my privacy! What does that make me?

[arabspaceship123]

If they're made illegal in your country it's different you can't use them so now you can't be a criminal for using mixers to get more security or anonymity. It's probably going to happen soon but we don't know when.

Your thoughts on the reply's same as me. I don't know why mixers get bad rep if they're used for privacy. If they're being used for crime it's a different thing govts will go after them but if they they're supplying services to ppl wanting to increase privacy they shouldn't be considered money laundering factories.

Word, my thought exactly.
I don't understand why mixers get such a bad rep!! I mean people like privacy, where is the problem in that.
Sure there are some that use mixers for no so legal reasons but you can't throw all users in 1 pot, that's just not right!

I used mixers before, not to hide anything, not to circumvent taxes, not for anything illegal, just for straight up security of my privacy! What does that make me?

[Dump3er]

Your thoughts on the reply matches mine because I don't know why mixers get bad rep if they're used for privacy. If they're being used for crime it's a different thing govts will go after them but if they aren't laundering they're supplying services to ppl wanting to increase privacy they shouldn't be considered money laundering factories.

If they're made illegal in your country it's different so now you can't be a criminal for using mixers to get more security or anonymity.

Word, my thought exactly.
I don't understand why mixers get such a bad rep!! I mean people like privacy, where is the problem in that.
Sure there are some that use mixers for no so legal reasons but you can't throw all users in 1 pot, that's just not right!

I used mixers before, not to hide anything, not to circumvent taxes, not for anything illegal, just for straight up security of my privacy! What does that make me?

It also doesn't really solve any problem if they ban mixers. There are so many services that essentially allow users to break traceability by going back and forth between different cryptocurrencies, or of course use Monero. And for as long as there is a need and a marktet for mixing services, there will be mixing services. They can maybe shut down one of those services every few weeks or so, but that doesn't stop anyone from setting up the next one. I was wondering if authorities should run their own mixing services as that would be an effective way to gather as much data about people as possible.

[Casdinyard]

Too late to rock the cradle at this point. The dust has settled and mixers are going to be unwelcome in this forum from January 1 onwards.

And while you make a compelling case about why mixers aren’t to be considered as AML-defying machines, the thing is that, they are still used to conduct and protect people who commit illegal activities. Hackers and scammers getting away with millions of untraceable money in some cases all because of mixers.

Believe me, I’m more about keeping mixers in the forum and in the crypto industry as much as the next guy since privacy is the crowning glory of crypto apart from decentralization. But the thing is, it has done more harm than good upon bitcoin’s reputation at this point that we’d have to come up with a better way to commit to security.

[arabspaceship123]

We don't know so I'll say they'll make centralised exchanges seize coins which came from mixer addresses. If Monero isn't going to be traded in centralised exchanges ppl will mix XMR in bisq but when they're sent to regulated exchanges they'll be seized that's what's coming to my head.

There's a market for mixing so it isn't going out of business soon. If mixing's outlawed in your country you shouldn't mix. Unless it's against laws in your country you're allowed to mix but you can't launder money it's a crime. The trouble begins when money launder criminals use mixers it's when they get seized.

It also doesn't really solve any problem if they ban mixers. There are so many services that essentially allow users to break traceability by going back and forth between different cryptocurrencies, or of course use Monero. And for as long as there is a need and a marktet for mixing services, there will be mixing services. They can maybe shut down one of those services every few weeks or so, but that doesn't stop anyone from setting up the next one. I was wondering if authorities should run their own mixing services as that would be an effective way to gather as much data about people as possible.

[Kryptowerk]

Full anonymity on the internet is a no go . If three letter agencies decide to track you down , you are doomed .

Sure, it's not easy, but care to explain how Satoshi's identity still remains a secret 15+ years after BTC's announcement/whitepaper?

You fail to understand that you are not the all seeing eye . That you or i don't know who satoshi is , doesn't mean that satoshi's identity isn't known to everyone . Who are the ones that know it ? If i had to guess , people close to him that are good in keeping secrets . Oh , and of course three letter agencies , if an order to find him was given at some point .

And three-letter agencies have done absolutely nothing regarding Satoshi during the last 15 years because...?

Because the "the cat is already out of the bag". - The core idea of Bitcoin and its current implementation are unstoppable. Satoshi has nothing to say in that, even if he were to appear right now.
So in regards of Bitcoin it would be of little help for any government or agency to confront the real Satoshi in whichever way.


To bring this back to topic:

I still believe the only way to go about Bitcoin privacy is making it mainstream. Right now only a handful of dedicated wallets offer a coinjoin / whirlpool or similar option. If instead this was an integral part of most commonly used wallets (hard and software) and would needed to be turned-off first instead of turned-on, it would exponentially help the privacy of Bitcoin.
So it's up to the devs in the right positions to make this option more broadly available, easily accessible and ideally auto-on from the get-go.

[Dump3er]

We don't know so I'll say they'll make centralised exchanges seize coins which came from mixer addresses. If Monero isn't going to be traded in centralised exchanges ppl will mix XMR in bisq but when they're sent to regulated exchanges they'll be seized that's what's coming to my head.

There's a market for mixing so it isn't going out of business soon. If mixing's outlawed in your country you shouldn't mix. Unless it's against laws in your country you're allowed to mix but you can't launder money it's a crime. The trouble begins when money launder criminals use mixers it's when they get seized.

It also doesn't really solve any problem if they ban mixers. There are so many services that essentially allow users to break traceability by going back and forth between different cryptocurrencies, or of course use Monero. And for as long as there is a need and a marktet for mixing services, there will be mixing services. They can maybe shut down one of those services every few weeks or so, but that doesn't stop anyone from setting up the next one. I was wondering if authorities should run their own mixing services as that would be an effective way to gather as much data about people as possible.

Yes that's what I think as well, but besides outright bans there are other ways to force people into avoiding cryptocurrencies like Monero or mixing services. If someone wants to improve or maintain privacy while at the same time be an honest citizen paying taxes on gains etc., these people could still run into problems when a proof of origin is required, I assume? For Monero it is ok as you could prove you controlled certain private keys to public keys in a chain of transactions, but when you use a mixing service it could become a hassle to prove anything to complete satisfaction of authorities. But that is pretty much the same with most of these swapping services where you can send coin X to get back coin Y. The strategy could be to make it so cumbersome that maintaining or improving one's privacy becomes such a distress that people start caring less.