You should write two copies of your seed phrase.

[Synchronice]

is remembering 12 words that hard?

It's not.. until it is. Just imagine a stroke, or a (motor)bike crash, or many other things the can happen to you.
Plus, mind is a very strange thing. In a year or two you will be certain the 5th word in your seed is "about" and in reality it was always "above".
So no. It's not difficult to keep in mind 12 words for a while. But the longer that while is, the more chances for something to go wrong.

Stroke affects short-term memory more than long-term memory. And if you get into crash or get a heart attack, develop dementia or something terrible happens, the first question is if you survive and the second question is, if you actually remember that you have bitcoins or in best case, where you saved your seeds.

Memorizing isn't that hard or bad practice. If you try to memorize seed phrases every day for multiple times in a one year timeframe (keep seeds for some months or one year), if you write them down very often and then burn that paper all the time for security purpose, or if you write them down on keyboard (unplugged from computer), then you not only depend on your just memory alone, you also seal it deep inside your muscle-brain memory, you touch the keyboard and your hand know what to write.

By the way, if you try to memorize 18 or 24 words, then you shouldn't trust your mind in this case because it's too much to properly remember for a long period of time. 12 words are fine!

In my school, emphasis was on memorizing of information, probably that played its role into making it easier to memorize things.

[1715146281]

1715146281

[Lucius]

But what if, you have 1,000 Bitcoins in your wallet, and you forget one word, JUST ONE WORD, and you have no copies of your seed phrase anywhere because "remembering 12 word is not that hard". You'll definitely know the true meaning of manual brute-forcing. Hahaha.

One missing word from the seed is not too much of a problem, I think that finding even three words is feasible with today's technology in some reasonable time. As time goes on computers will become more and more powerful and some who have really messed up with their backup hope to be able to discover their treasure chest.

Of course, a lot of bad things can be avoided if we take some basic precautions, and one of the basic ones is to understand that only one backup represents a big risk, but even 2 or 3 in the same location in some cases will not help if it is about ordinary paper.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Stroke affects short-term memory more than long-term memory.

Sometimes. Sometimes not. Far too risky an assumption to make.

And if you get into crash or get a heart attack, develop dementia or something terrible happens, the first question is if you survive and the second question is, if you actually remember that you have bitcoins or in best case, where you saved your seeds.

You are more likely to remember where you physically put something than a list of words you just repeat to yourself over and over. And if you forget the location of your back up, you can at least look for it. If you forget your memorized seed phrase, your coins are gone.

Memorizing isn't that hard or bad practice.

Only if you also have physical back ups. Relying only on your memory is very bad practice.

[hZti]

is remembering 12 words that hard?

It is actually very hard if you are in bitcoin for more then 10 years like me. You will never use these words and therefore definitely forget them at some point. What you should salsa consider is that you can get in a car accident or similar and forget your words because if this.

[taufik123]

-snip-
By the way, if you try to memorize 18 or 24 words, then you shouldn't trust your mind in this case because it's too much to properly remember for a long period of time. 12 words are fine!

12 words will also not be fine and you should not trust your mind completely. The human brain is indeed capable of remembering anything in the long run if it is trained, but the human brain also has an age. As we get older or enter the aging period the brain's ability will decrease slightly.
Senile dementia will be a problem if you have to remember 12 words without any copies.

-snip-
As time goes on computers will become more and more powerful and some who have really messed up with their backup hope to be able to discover their treasure chest.

Is the increasingly powerful computer technology related to Quantum Computers?
Which certainly has more capabilities than today's conventional computers. It has the incredible speed to manage and decode anything.

-snip-
You are more likely to remember where you physically put something than a list of words you just repeat to yourself over and over. And if you forget the location of your back up, you can at least look for it. If you forget your memorized seed phrase, your coins are gone.

That would be a serious problem. No library list will be remembered if some phrases are forgotten. The brain's ability will continue to decline.
Instead of risking losing it without any trace, it is better to record it in physical form and store it in a safe place.
Or use a "Timer Capsule" which will protect any document well, is fire and water-resistant, and can withstand any condition.

The choice of material or container used to store documents can choose Stainless material which is more sturdy and rust or corrosion-resistant.
Even on Amazon, there are those who sell "Time Capsule Stainless Steel Waterproof" specialized for storing important documents that can be an option and not be afraid that documents will be damaged for many years.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Is the increasingly powerful computer technology related to Quantum Computers?

Could be. A sufficiently powerful quantum computer running Grover's algorithm can perform a brute force search in O(√n) functions, rather than O(n) functions as a standard computer would. This means that a 2¹²⁸ string could be brute forced in only 2⁶⁴ iterations. This is all dependent on very powerful quantum computers though, which are a long way off.

Or use a "Timer Capsule" which will protect any document well, is fire and water-resistant, and can withstand any condition.

I think people get too hung up on metal seed phrase storage, and it can actually lead to poor practices. Because of the expense of such devices, many people will just buy a single device and that will be their only back up. Only having one back up is a very risky situation, especially if that one back up is stored at home alongside the device(s) your wallet(s) are installed on. Two pieces of paper in separate geographical locations is safer (not to mention cheaper and easier) than a single metal back up.

[Agbe]

Hear me out guys.

Paper can be really fragile, and all it takes is a tear or water spill or defacing to deny you access to your BTC forever.

So, you should make a second copy of your seed phrase that is identical to the first, and store it on a different place from the first seed so that they both cannot go down together except in extreme circumstances like a natural disaster.

Two is even too small if the person can write as many as he or she can let them do it. Because the two copies can also be misplaced or lost. So having more might save the disappointment and lost of coins. I have five copies in different places. I didn't keep them in one place, I heard one in my father's house, another in my mother's house, one is in my office and two are with me.
The two I kept with me are the original but the other ones, I changed one particular figure in all which I know it in my memory. And it is on the first later for all. That is the different between the ones that are with me and the other ones.
You can also go to parenting press or print it with a HP Laptop printer 🖨️ to print it and laminate it so that the laminating paper will become a water resistant to the seed paper.

[taufik123]

Could be. A sufficiently powerful quantum computer running Grover's algorithm can perform a brute force search in O(√n) functions, rather than O(n) functions as a standard computer would. This means that a 2¹²⁸ string could be brute forced in only 2⁶⁴ iterations. This is all dependent on very powerful quantum computers though, which are a long way off.

Quantum computers that use Grover's algorithm in the case of breaking symmetric encryption algorithms such as AES (Advanced Encryption Standard) are only able to weaken their strength or reduce all possible encryption keys to half.

In contrast, if a quantum computer solves an asymmetric encryption algorithm such as RSA, then a quantum computer can break it, especially for RSA-1024.

But in Bitcoin using the 256-bit ECDSA digital signature system, the possibility of encryption keys that can be done effectively Brute Force from 2²⁵⁶ to 2¹²⁸.
So with the calculation capabilities of Quantum Computing and Grover's algorithm, it takes 2.6 x 10³² years.

Currently, it is still very unlikely to be used commercially, Quantum Computers are also tagged with very expensive prices such as D-Wave Systems products and some special licenses are needed because they are only used by a few large companies and research institutions.  
https://www.dwavesys.com/solutions-and-products/systems/

Source:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Elliptic_Curve_Digital_Signature_Algorithm
https://www.section.io/engineering-education/aes-rsa-encryption/
https://www.csis.org/blogs/strategic-technologies-blog/encryption-security-post-quantum-world

I think people get too hung up on metal seed phrase storage, and it can actually lead to poor practices. Because of the expense of such devices, many people will just buy a single device and that will be their only back up. Only having one back up is a very risky situation, especially if that one back up is stored at home alongside the device(s) your wallet(s) are installed on. Two pieces of paper in separate geographical locations is safer (not to mention cheaper and easier) than a single metal back up.

Expensive because the materials used also support security (depending on how many assets are stored) it doesn't matter if the metal reserve costs hundreds of dollars but is used to store assets worth millions of dollars, it is not easily damaged and even withstands any conditions.

Actually, this is only optional for advanced security. Using standard security or more affordable ways is also fine, as long as the backup is in good condition.
Having 2 or more backups will help, but all of them must be secure and have full control.

[mindrust]

Hear me out guys.

Paper can be really fragile, and all it takes is a tear or water spill or defacing to deny you access to your BTC forever.

So, you should make a second copy of your seed phrase that is identical to the first, and store it on a different place from the first seed so that they both cannot go down together except in extreme circumstances like a natural disaster.

Making more copies is risky too. A burglar might steal your home copy while you are not home... You may protect yourself from a natural disaster but then there will be other risks... On the other hand having only one copy is also risky because anything can happen to it. There isn't a foolproof easy solution to this problem imo. Physical paper wallets have their own risks, memorizing the seed words is also dangerous because dementia is a bitch... computers can get broken or get hacked if they are connected to the internet. Should you make 2 copies of your priv keys? Maybe. But I know for sure, you shouldn't make more than 2.

[taufik123]

Making more copies is risky too. A burglar might steal your home copy while you are not home... You may protect yourself from a natural disaster but then there will be other risks... On the other hand having only one copy is also risky because anything can happen to it. There isn't a foolproof easy solution to this problem imo. Physical paper wallets have their own risks, memorizing the seed words is also dangerous because dementia is a bitch... computers can get broken or get hacked if they are connected to the internet. Should you make 2 copies of your priv keys? Maybe. But I know for sure, you shouldn't make more than 2.

There is no easy solution, every choice will have risks and the risks will certainly vary.
Having more than one backup will be risky if the other backup is known by others, therefore securing all backups becomes the main focus.

Don't let one of the backups get out of your control. It is not easy to safeguard something valuable, especially when it is related to future investments that can only be opened with the key.

There are so many security alternatives that can be used as options, but look back at what risks can occur. Adjust to our needs and abilities as users. 

"Security isn't securities. It's knowing that someone cares whether you are or cease to be"
- Malcolm Forbes
  Entrepreneur and publisher (Forbes Magazine) from the United States

[o_e_l_e_o]

Quantum computers that use Grover's algorithm in the case of breaking symmetric encryption algorithms such as AES (Advanced Encryption Standard) are only able to weaken their strength or reduce all possible encryption keys to half.

That's not accurate.

As I said above, Grover's algorithm allows a problem to be solved in the square root of n-time. Half of 2²⁵⁶ is 2²⁵⁵. Grover's algorithm reduces 2²⁵⁶ to the square root of 2²⁵⁶, which is 2¹²⁸.

But in Bitcoin using the 256-bit ECDSA digital signature system, the possibility of encryption keys that can be done effectively Brute Force from 2²⁵⁶ to 2¹²⁸.

If you are talking about solving the ECDLP, rather than brute forcing part of a seed phrase as above, then you are now talking about Shor's algorithm, not Grover's. Shor's runs in polylogarithmic time, and can factor a k bit number in k³ time. A sufficiently powerful quantum computer (again, decades away) could easily break the ECDLP.

Making more copies is risky too.

The best solution is to have a set up where compromise of one back up is insufficient to steal your coins, such as separate seed phrase and passphrase back ups, or a multi-sig. Make two copies of each part. That way you have redundancy against accidental loss as well as greater protection against theft.

[Synchronice]

Memorizing isn't that hard or bad practice.

Only if you also have physical back ups. Relying only on your memory is very bad practice.

Be frank, aren't there some long poems that you learned so well in school that you still remember them word by word?
If yes, then I hope you got my point.

And if you get into crash or get a heart attack, develop dementia or something terrible happens, the first question is if you survive and the second question is, if you actually remember that you have bitcoins or in best case, where you saved your seeds.

You are more likely to remember where you physically put something than a list of words you just repeat to yourself over and over. And if you forget the location of your back up, you can at least look for it. If you forget your memorized seed phrase, your coins are gone.

-snip-
By the way, if you try to memorize 18 or 24 words, then you shouldn't trust your mind in this case because it's too much to properly remember for a long period of time. 12 words are fine!

12 words will also not be fine and you should not trust your mind completely. The human brain is indeed capable of remembering anything in the long run if it is trained, but the human brain also has an age. As we get older or enter the aging period the brain's ability will decrease slightly.
Senile dementia will be a problem if you have to remember 12 words without any copies.

If I am an old man with not so good memory, I wouldn't trust myself. Finally, everything comes down to what you are capable to handle. But guys, if you say that if you get stroke or heart attack or dementia or crush accident or fell from the mountain, etc, then I have a question, what makes you confident in remembering the secret place where you stored your keys? Let's be frank, in such extreme cases, our methods don't have any advantage. If you save your seeds in a place that's easy to reach for everyone, then you are not actually keeping your seeds safe and if you save it in a secret place that's hard to find for anyone and you experience extremely bad accident, then more likely you won't be able to recall that place and in extreme cases, you won't be able to even acknowledge that you had something saved. This applies to memorizing, if one is fucked, doesn't matter he/she memorizes or saves it in a secret safe place, the person is in trouble.

So, once again, I want to say that everything comes with a price!

[o_e_l_e_o]

Be frank, aren't there some long poems that you learned so well in school that you still remember them word by word?
If yes, then I hope you got my point.

Of course. But as I pointed out in an older post which was quoted earlier in this thread, I am under no illusion that I could very easily forget such things through no fault of my own and with absolutely no warning. Anyone can have a stroke at any time. Anyone can simply trip and hit their head on the sidewalk at any time. Anyone can contract meningitis at any time. The number of possible ways your memory can be damaged cannot be counted. I don't like those odds, especially when it is so trivially easy to overcome them by simply writing your seed phrase on a piece of paper.

what makes you confident in remembering the secret place where you stored your keys?

If I forget, I'll ask my wife. And as I said above, I can at least look for a physical back up in places I am likely to store one. If you forget your seed phrase, then you are shit outta luck.

[taufik123]

-snip-

It seems that I need to learn more about some notions of algorithms and about the ECDLP signature system.
Thank you for explaining in detail.

-snip- A sufficiently powerful quantum computer (again, decades away) could easily break the ECDLP.

If in a few decades, a powerful enough quantum computer can break ECDLP, it will be a technological advance, but on the other hand, it will be quite crucial, because it doesn't take long to break or crack the ECDLP signature system.

what makes you confident in remembering the secret place where you stored your keys?

If I forget, I'll ask my wife. And as I said above, I can at least look for a physical back up in places I am likely to store one. If you forget your seed phrase, then you are shit outta luck.

In the end, we must have a trusted person to remind us of a secret we once made.
Maybe it's like a legacy that our children and grandchildren will remember.
Like a Treasure that has some clues to find it.

But it becomes an old technology that has many mysteries to be solved, but in modern times like this the way it is done will certainly be different.
There are many secret places that can be used to store anything and they can only be accessed by the owner and the rightful heir.

Any pleasant past events or any events that are memorable will be easy to remember, but not with complicated codes or random numbers, it is very difficult for anyone when it has entered the years.

[Wind_FURY]

But what if, you have 1,000 Bitcoins in your wallet, and you forget one word, JUST ONE WORD, and you have no copies of your seed phrase anywhere because "remembering 12 word is not that hard". You'll definitely know the true meaning of manual brute-forcing. Hahaha.

One missing word from the seed is not too much of a problem, I think that finding even three words is feasible with today's technology in some reasonable time. As time goes on computers will become more and more powerful and some who have really messed up with their backup hope to be able to discover their treasure chest.

Of course, a lot of bad things can be avoided if we take some basic precautions, and one of the basic ones is to understand that only one backup represents a big risk, but even 2 or 3 in the same location in some cases will not help if it is about ordinary paper.

I was merely making a point that the inconvenience of thinking about brute-forcing a word isn't worth the stress that the user would be going through if a simple back-up would have made him/her avoid all of the stress.

Personally, as posted, I like both digital, and physical back-ups for both convenience and redundancy.

[o_e_l_e_o]

It seems that I need to learn more about some notions of algorithms and about the ECDLP signature system.

The bottom line is that there is nothing to worry about for many years or even decades.

Out of all the various parts of bitcoin, the bit which is the most vulnerable to quantum computers (via Shor's algorithm) is the elliptic curve itself, which means an attacker being able to take a public key and calculate its corresponding private key. Reverse engineering from addresses (rather than from public keys), mining, and many other parts of the protocol are less vulnerable because they use various hashes, which are far more quantum resistant than the ECDLP.

So at some point in the future we will likely fork to some new quantum resistant cryptography before quantum computers pose a serious risk. We don't need to make any decision regarding this for years or even decades, and indeed, making such decisions now would be a mistake given the entire field is in its infancy and any system we chose today would likely have been replaced by something else by the time it was actually relevant.

but on the other hand, it will be quite crucial, because it doesn't take long to break or crack the ECDLP signature system.

Don't forget that in such a scenario then almost all the encryption currently used across the entire internet will similarly be broken, including everything to do with the fiat banking system.

[bettercrypto]

is remembering 12 words that hard?

Do not depend on your memory because memory can fail anyone at anytime. The best is to backup your seed phrase in two places. If you keep it in three different places, it makes it better.

Most people can have more than one wallet. Some people can have 2, 3 or more wallets, keeping their seed phrases offhand wouldn't be ideal.

it is kinda worrying leaving your seeds somewhere someone can find but for sure there are solutions. This is the real risk of crypto currencies.

Why should you worry if you know how to preserve and appreciate it. There are many ways how we can hide or put our seed phrase keys in a safe, maybe it depends on us.

      Because I don't put them on paper to write them, all I do now is save them on my flash drive usb, well, in fact I have 3 flash drives and it's just hidden in a place that only I really know . I've been doing this for a few years now and so far so good.

[Synchronice]

what makes you confident in remembering the secret place where you stored your keys?

If I forget, I'll ask my wife. And as I said above, I can at least look for a physical back up in places I am likely to store one. If you forget your seed phrase, then you are shit outta luck.

So, isn't it far more dangerous to entrust the location of your private keys to another person? Even if it's wife? Doesn't matter, the minute more than two people know a secret, it's no longer a secret.

I think it doesn't need further discussion, your way of doing this and my way of doing this, both have pros and cons and we highlighted it very well in favor of protecting our arguments. I think it will enlighten some people to read our opinions and choose whatever they think suits them. It was my point at some point too
I love it, when people protect their opinions, the more holes they seek in opposite opinion and more positive sides they are looking for in their opinions. When both sides do that, then discussion gets more meaningful.

If in a few decades, a powerful enough quantum computer can break ECDLP, it will be a technological advance, but on the other hand, it will be quite crucial, because it doesn't take long to break or crack the ECDLP signature system.

This life is an endless cycle of Problem -> Solution -> Problem -> Solution ∞

[Z-tight]

Why should you worry if you know how to preserve and appreciate it. There are many ways how we can hide or put our seed phrase keys in a safe, maybe it depends on us.

      Because I don't put them on paper to write them, all I do now is save them on my flash drive usb, well, in fact I have 3 flash drives and it's just hidden in a place that only I really know . I've been doing this for a few years now and so far so good.

A USB flash drive is not the worst method of a backup for your seed phrase, but i will still choose paper over it. USB flash drives have a lifespan, and even if it is not too short, it can become corrupted earlier on and you would lose data stored in it, which you can only recover most times with the help of a third party service, and that is not recommended because the data stored there is your seed phrase and it can be stolen by this third party.

Make sure your USB flash drive is not connected to the internet regularly, and it must be encrypted and a strong password set up. Paper backup seems the best to me, but since you said you use 3 flash drives, i hope you have not kept all these backups in one location, if you have done so, you should consider separating it in different locations.

[Saint-loup]

Two is even too small if the person can write as many as he or she can let them do it. Because the two copies can also be misplaced or lost. So having more might save the disappointment and lost of coins. I have five copies in different places. I didn't keep them in one place, I heard one in my father's house, another in my mother's house, one is in my office and two are with me.
The two I kept with me are the original but the other ones, I changed one particular figure in all which I know it in my memory. And it is on the first later for all. That is the different between the ones that are with me and the other ones.
You can also go to parenting press or print it with a HP Laptop printer 🖨️ to print it and laminate it so that the laminating paper will become a water resistant to the seed paper.

It's interesting but how have you been able to change the first letter of your seed? Some words of the BIP39 dictionary are exactly the same except their first letters? If it's true, you are not afraid that the guy finding your seed could be aware of those special words, spot them in your seed and try to make the swap of the letters? Especially if your fake seed doesn't contain any transaction?
And if the modified words don't belong to the BIP39 wordlist, you're not afraid that the attacker could spot them instantly if he tries to enter them in a wallet? You don't think he could try and manage to find the original word?