Cygan abuses DT - Proof!

[airfinex]

I noticed that Cygan green rating has increased dramatically. I realized that he adds everyone to his list of trust. The reason for adding such users to his trust list is that they left him positive feedback and in order for it to be displayed, he, as a member of DT1, makes them DT2.

I suggest throwing him out of DT if he doesn't immediately stop doing this shit. He not only needs to stop this, he must also remove from his trust list all those whom ONLY he trusts.

[1714472385]

1714472385

[1714472385]

1714472385

[Timelord2o67]

Yes, I was noticing that same thing this week. I'll have a look on Saturday at the updated DT list that @LoyceV compiles each week and help verify what you've uncovered.

[yahoo62278]

Users can add whomever they want to their trust lists although they should be a little more strict if they're DT. Cygan might need to check his list and purge, I'm not saying he should or shouldn't currently. If you have an issue with his list, you might address this post to those who have added cygan to their list although I doubt you'll be successful. Guy seems pretty decent to me.

[1miau]

I know cygan from our German section and he's a honest member from what I've seen. He has made great contributions to our forum.
Yes, adding other accounts to our own DT list, especially as a DT1 (which will make added accounts immediately DT2 members), should be considered very well and if these accounts have not left any substantial feedback other than positive feedback to the DT1 member who added them to his trust list, there's not reason to have these members in DT2.
I'm sure cygan isn't aware of this and his intent wasn't malicious at all, so it's a bold statement statement from OP that cygan would "abuse" DT.
It just seems to be a misunderstanding that cygan is not aware, that his inclusions are promoting all accounts into DT2 position, which can be abused easily if one of these DT2 accounts turns out to be a scammer.

[Little Mouse]

Though users have the right to include/exclude whoever they want, it doesn't look good. If cygan has added them because they left him positive feedback, that's abuse but it's also possible that there are many users who make the same mistake by adding people whom they trust financially while it should be whom they trust with their judgment based on forum feedback sent. cygan had business with all of them and maybe the same mistake cygan has done too. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case lol.

[Timelord2o67]

Just looking back over the last three months to the start of the year, we can see that the dates look close enough to when the trust feedback was left for cygan:

https://bpip.org/TrustLog?&trusting=cygan&chtype=All



(and they are in the same chronological order too).

Well spotted @airfinex

[LoyceV]

A good indicator for Trust Selfscratching is to check the "Untrusted feedback" for a DT1-member. If there are much less untrusted than trusted feedbacks, it's likely the user is raising his own Trust score by including them.

They're also easy to find by checking who put the youngest users on DT2:

~
  598. 3435957: ragilab (Trust: +2 / =0 / -0) (0 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
  599. 3436318: kylecarbon (Trust: +1 / =0 / -0) (0 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
  600. 3436861: Mr.Macintosh (Trust: +1 / =0 / -0) (0 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
  601. 3439511: AndiGuti (Trust: +1 / =0 / -0) (0 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
  602. 3439672: Suzuki Matt (Trust: +17 / =0 / -0) (31 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
  603. 3442614: YodasRedRocket (Trust: +22 / =0 / -0) (389 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
  604. 3456588: Remi Forte (Trust: +2 / =0 / -0) (3 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
  605. 3460457: DirtyBirdE (Trust: +2 / =0 / -0) (9 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
  606. 3461002: Otillio1330 (Trust: +4 / =0 / -0) (6 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
  607. 3462031: zukiplay (Trust: +3 / =0 / -0) (2 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
  608. 3465805: Honeybadger2014 (Trust: +1 / =0 / -0) (1 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
  609. 3470232: Dustin westerbeck (Trust: +2 / =0 / -0) (2 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
  610. 3481963: Marc1225 (Trust:  neutral) (6 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
  611. 3494065: QuakerBull (Trust: +5 / =0 / -0) (12 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
  612. 3515598: 10casproj (Trust: +2 / =0 / -0) (1 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

For laughs (or cries): Check the last few users, several Newbies or Jr. Members with only a few posts are on DT2 because someone on DT1 is self-scratching his DT Trust ratings. It's especially obvious when a DT1-member has loads of positive DT feedback, but barely any Untrusted feedback.

Users can add whomever they want to their trust lists although they should be a little more strict if they're DT.

That's true, but if enough people include users for the wrong reasons, DT becomes even more meaningless.
Don't forget:

Trust list

List the users who you trust to have good trust ratings and good trust lists

I could increase my Trust rating by about +35 if I'd include everyone who left me feedback, but if I'd do that, others should exclude me for using the Trust system incorrectly.

Especially on the Collectibles board, the Trust system is often used incorrectly. This has been going on for years, and I expect it to continue for years too. It's not even that terrible anyway: it's not as if they're using it to scam others.

[cygan]

i find these accusations false and too exaggerated.
maybe i have not understood the trust system 100% correctly (as 1miau, Little Mouse or yahoo62278 have written) but with all users who have given me a trust, i have also made a deal (in the form of a trade or in the form of a refund)
and the trust entries (between 23-03 and 24-03) came so directly one after the other, because i asked the said users (voluntarily) to leave me a trust.
and if one of the users turns out to be a scammer or a non-trustworthy user, he will be kicked as fast as he was added to my list (see e.g. the user yogg).

but as i said, if i didn't understand the dt-system correctly, a staff-member or someone who knows a lot about it should inform me about it and i will then remove some users again
btw i don't even know now which users i should remove from my trust list and which could stay in (i don't see any difference)

just my 2 sats

[Little Mouse]

btw i don't even know now which users i should remove from my trust list and which could stay in (i don't see any difference)

Don't include people in your trust list because they have dealt with you and you can trust them with money. This deserves a feedback.
When someone leaves accurate feedback in your perspective, only include them in your trust list. If they leave wrong feedback, exclude them from trust list.
For reference, LoyceV guide is the best- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5191802.0

Once again-
1. You have trade with someone? Leave feedback.
2. You trust someone's judgement based on the feedback they sent- Include them in your trust list.

[LoyceV]

i find these accusations false and too exaggerated.

First: agreed. It's a case of "not great, not terrible".

if i didn't understand the dt-system correctly, a staff-member or someone who knows a lot about it should inform me about it and i will then remove some users again

I'll quote my own summary:

Don't confuse your Trust list with feedback
Trust feedback: leave feedback to people you trust or don't trust. Or leave neutral comments.
Trust list: a list of people who's judgement on others you trust (username) or don't trust (~username).

btw i don't even know now which users i should remove from my trust list and which could stay in (i don't see any difference)

I'll take Sarduk as an example. His Trust list is empty:

Trust list for: Sarduk (Trust: awaiting update) (0 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP) (created 2023-03-25_Sat_05.07h)
Back to index

Sarduk Trusts these users' judgement:
-

Sarduk Distrusts these users' judgement:
-

Sarduk's judgement is Trusted by:
1. NEW cygan (Trust: +68 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (8) 3814 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

~Sarduk's judgement is Distrusted by:
-

Source: LoyceV's Trust list viewer.
Get your own Trust list in BBCode at loyce.club/trust.

He only sent feedback to you. I see no reason why he should be on DT2.

[cygan]

✂️
I'll take Sarduk as an example. His Trust list is empty:
✂️
He only sent feedback to you. I see no reason why he should be on DT2.

gotcha!
so i only include users in my 'trust list' who have been noticed positively/negatively in the past with another forum user or were already members as dt1/2 - correct?

[yahoo62278]

✂️
I'll take Sarduk as an example. His Trust list is empty:
✂️
He only sent feedback to you. I see no reason why he should be on DT2.

gotcha!
so i only include users in my 'trust list' who have been noticed positively/negatively in the past with another forum user or were already members as dt1/2 - correct?

You include users with whose judgement you trust. Users that have left positive and negative trust on other users that is accurate and who are not scammers.

When you trade with someone and it goes pos or neg you open the trust page and can click post new feedback. Then leave them a + or - review for your trade.

If you trust someones judgement and they seem to leave accurate feedback you click trust settings and add them to your list. If they leave bad ratings on people you click trust settings and ~xxxxx name and exclude them from your list.


I think this is a common occurrence in collectibles. Easiest place to farm trust just like wall observer is the easiest place to farm merit. I don't think you did anything wrong, maybe just misunderstand the trust system. Hopefully what LoyceV and others have posted here helps you.

[cygan]

i understand the trust system already so slowly and your hints/posts/links have contributed to it now quite a bit 🙏
please give me some time now so that i can revise my trust list calmly and carefully

[JollyGood]

I noticed that Cygan green rating has increased dramatically. I realized that he adds everyone to his list of trust. The reason for adding such users to his trust list is that they left him positive feedback and in order for it to be displayed, he, as a member of DT1, makes them DT2.

I suggest throwing him out of DT if he doesn't immediately stop doing this shit. He not only needs to stop this, he must also remove from his trust list all those whom ONLY he trusts.

Why create this thread alleging you have proof cygan has abused DT instead of contacting him via PM first? It is clear cygan is not a scammer and it is equally clear he is not indulging in what is deemed to be nefarious conduct therefore maybe the better course of action could have been sending him a PM laying out any concerns you may have had and allowed him ample time to respond.

Users can add whomever they want to their trust lists although they should be a little more strict if they're DT. Cygan might need to check his list and purge, I'm not saying he should or shouldn't currently. If you have an issue with his list, you might address this post to those who have added cygan to their list although I doubt you'll be successful. Guy seems pretty decent to me.

Yes looking at his record, cygan certainly seems decent to me too and that makes me think the OP creating this thread is an overreaction.

I know cygan from our German section and he's a honest member from what I've seen. He has made great contributions to our forum.
Yes, adding other accounts to our own DT list, especially as a DT1 (which will make added accounts immediately DT2 members), should be considered very well and if these accounts have not left any substantial feedback other than positive feedback to the DT1 member who added them to his trust list, there's not reason to have these members in DT2.
I'm sure cygan isn't aware of this and his intent wasn't malicious at all, so it's a bold statement statement from OP that cygan would "abuse" DT.
It just seems to be a misunderstanding that cygan is not aware, that his inclusions are promoting all accounts into DT2 position, which can be abused easily if one of these DT2 accounts turns out to be a scammer.

That would be the most plausible outcome, cygan would not have known his inclusions are bringing those accounts on to DT2. There does not seem to be any malicious intent on his part. It does make me wonder why the OP felt the need to start a thread about this issue and end up creating a whole unnecessary drama when he could easily just sent a PM to cygan to raise any concerns.

but as i said, if i didn't understand the dt-system correctly, a staff-member or someone who knows a lot about it should inform me about it and i will then remove some users again
btw i don't even know now which users i should remove from my trust list and which could stay in (i don't see any difference)

just my 2 sats

That is the reason why this thread was an unnecessary. The OP is not a staff member but seems to know a lot about DT therefore he could have contacted you directly to bring it to your attention but opted to not do that.

i understand the trust system already so slowly and your hints/posts/links have contributed to it now quite a bit 🙏
please give me some time now so that i can revise my trust list calmly and carefully

Take your time, it is your trust list and you have a right to evaluate it properly in your own time without any unduly pressure

That is one of the wonderful things about the forum, You have been around the forum a long time, much longer than me and most others I interact with and also longer than those that have posted in this thread but it is an ongoing learning process. We all more or less learn things we never knew (or fully understood) about before and each member learns at their own pace.

[examplens]

Why create this thread alleging you have proof cygan has abused DT instead of contacting him via PM first? It is clear cygan is not a scammer and it is equally clear he is not indulging in what is deemed to be nefarious conduct therefore maybe the better course of action could have been sending him a PM laying out any concerns you may have had and allowed him ample time to respond.

it's perfectly fine to express such things through the thread, cygan got a lot more clarification on what he's doing wrong. this probably attracted more attention to him.

i understand the trust system already so slowly and your hints/posts/links have contributed to it now quite a bit 🙏
please give me some time now so that i can revise my trust list calmly and carefully

uncontrolled and improper use of the trust system will probably result in being on the distrust list of other DT1 members who take care of its proper use. for example, member trankil also does not recognize the proper use of the trust system. In addition to leaving feedback without references, it is very difficult to determine the truth of his claims, also his feedbacks are in opposition to each other.

positive feedback to yogg is still there, while at the same time, there is feedback where it is written about yogg scams. now think how confusing it can be for someone who comes for the first time and is not fully informed about the whole thing. at the same time, there are no references to do personal research.

yogg

2021-01-01

cool guy, and do serious business

cygan

2023-03-23

Good Guy Cygan reimbursed my swept ColdKeys during the Yogg scam; thanks !

[Findingnemo]

i understand the trust system already so slowly and your hints/posts/links have contributed to it now quite a bit 🙏
please give me some time now so that i can revise my trust list calmly and carefully

I appreciate your attitude because you understand how we should use the DT trust system especially trusting users judgement is entirely different from you trust the user for trading with them. Personally I am giving much attention to creating my own trust list so I only included few which means I just go with the Default Trust list.

[dragonvslinux]

Users can add whomever they want to their trust lists although they should be a little more strict if they're DT.

That's true, but if enough people include users for the wrong reasons, DT becomes even more meaningless.

Not only that, it creates an open invitation to members to leave particular DT1 members positive trust in order to get included as a DT2 member, if that is the precedent.
Especially if a thread has been documented that a DT1 member does this, and doesn't change their ways (mentioning no names, ie not cygan!)

I noticed that Cygan green rating has increased dramatically. I realized that he adds everyone to his list of trust. The reason for adding such users to his trust list is that they left him positive feedback and in order for it to be displayed, he, as a member of DT1, makes them DT2.

I suggest throwing him out of DT if he doesn't immediately stop doing this shit. He not only needs to stop this, he must also remove from his trust list all those whom ONLY he trusts.

Why create this thread alleging you have proof cygan has abused DT instead of contacting him via PM first?

Probably because the situation is better explained by more experienced users, as has been the case. Not everyone responds to PMs either about these things...

but as i said, if i didn't understand the dt-system correctly, a staff-member or someone who knows a lot about it should inform me about it and i will then remove some users again
btw i don't even know now which users i should remove from my trust list and which could stay in (i don't see any difference)

just my 2 sats

That is the reason why this thread was an unnecessary. The OP is not a staff member but seems to know a lot about DT therefore he could have contacted you directly to bring it to your attention but opted to not do that.

Not sure what staff has to do with DT, virtually nothing as far as I understand. It's simply a lot more likely cygan would listen to higher-ranking members, rather than a single lower ranking member criticising thier trust list. I really don't understand your point overall, unless it's to try and discourage DT members being criticised in public which sounds like a dangerous precedent to encourage.

What the OP did, while probably a bit more "aggressive" in the wording than necessary given cygan's response to the issue, is the recommended thing to do if you think someone is abusing DT trust. There is no drama, as cygan has quickly recognised the errors in their trust inclusions and is rectifying them. Drama would be aggressively defending themselves, ignoring criticism, attacking the OP, etc, etc.

i understand the trust system already so slowly and your hints/posts/links have contributed to it now quite a bit 🙏
please give me some time now so that i can revise my trust list calmly and carefully

Congrats on taking the criticism on board and taking the time to review your trust list, sometimes it seems like a rare occurrence that DT members can take constructive criticism, let alone appreciate it!

[Timelord2o67]

I still find it suss users woke up specifically to give cygan positive trust feedback, were gifted DT2 status and have then gone back to sleep.

(Plus cygan said he's requested the positive trust feedback - if I'm reading their post correctly)

Especially on the Collectibles board, the Trust system is often used incorrectly. This has been going on for years, and I expect it to continue for years too. It's not even that terrible anyway: it's not as if they're using it to scam others.

Like yogg did?

Have you noticed Dabs hasn't come back since they were outted for doing this very same thing?

[cygan]

@all those who have posted their comments here
i understand your positive as well as the negative 'thoughts' or 'advantages' (no matter how you want to call it now) to create a separate thread here. i don't blame airfinex for going this way (thread) and as recommended by others here also not the other way (pm) - perhaps his passing will be different in the next case as well
in any case, it has now moved me to be even more careful to pay attention to the trust system and also to deal with this very complex topic even more than it is perhaps dear to someone - even as a long-standing legendary member, you are still capable of learning and is not automatically omniscient with this status.
and maybe this thread now has an effect on other users, who should have a look at their own trust list - who knows

I still find it suss users woke up specifically to give cygan positive trust feedback, were gifted DT2 status and have then gone back to sleep.

(Plus cygan said he's requested the positive trust feedback - if I'm reading their post correctly)
✂️

these are/were users who are mostly active in the collectibles area. i did not force them to put a trust in me but pleaded for voluntariness to leave this act (refundig, which i did voluntarily) as a positive feedback for me.
and if the users then become inactive again and/or only reappear when there is something interesting for them in the collectibles area again, i can't influence that.

[LoyceV]

I still find it suss users woke up specifically to give cygan positive trust feedback, were gifted DT2 status and have then gone back to sleep.

If they woke up, that was to get reimbursed for the ColdKeys fiasco.

Like yogg did?

No. If anything, cygan is doing the opposite of what yogg did.

Have you noticed Dabs hasn't come back since they were outted for doing this very same thing?

That's something to discuss in another topic.