Who is losing? Finland joins NATO.

[Fiatless]

One of the reasons Russia gave for invading Ukraine was that they want to stop the expansion of NATO along the Russian border. But today Finland which shares about 1,340km borderline with Russia has formally joined NATO. Kremlin feels that the acceptance of Finland into NATO is against the security and national interest of Russia. And in a few months, Sweden might be the next member of NATO which will indeed be a blow to the aspiration of Russia to push NATO far from its borders.

Do you think Russia made the right decision to attack Ukraine because it wants to protect its borders?


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65173043

[Hispo]

People take for granted that the main reason behind the invasion of Ukraine is the presence of NATO in eastern Europe, but I also think there are other motives, like the support and backing Putin wished to give the pro-separatist groups in Ukraine and at the same time take over valuable coast line by the black sea.

There is no wonder that Russia does not want NATO to grow, so this was indeed a backlash to his plans. Keeping in mind Trump was critical of NATO and the role of the USA in it, one must wonder how convenient would be for the Kremlin if Trump got his second term.

[BADecker]

Has Finland been actively fighting with Russia and killing Russians for years like Ukraine has? Russia was attempting to trade freely with other countries. But the US didn't like this, and started using Ukraine long ago to try to stop Russian free trade. Russia's invasion of Ukraine was only a defensive measure against the US, who was using Ukraine.

At this point, since there is much conflict already, and Russia has given Nato ultimatums that Nato is disregarding, why should Russia make more threats against Nato? When the time comes, Russia will have to get serious about war... and do it... against all of Europe and the US. And it seems like China and some other countries will side with Russia.

Russia doesn't want war. Russia wants free trade among nations. It's the US that is trying to conquer Russia and break her apart. They have said that they are trying to do this, and now they are showing it by supplying Ukraine militarily.

All countries talk. We see it in the news. The thing we don't see is the thing they are keeping private. We can't take media talk at face value. There are as many lies in the media as there are in the US and Nato, like their breaking of the Minsk agreements.

Finland joining Nato means nothing. It might even backfire on Nato since there are many Finns who are somewhat in favor of Russia. How do we know? There has been relative peace along the border of Finland and Russia for years or decades.

[OgNasty]

Scary times. It seems like NATO is going out of their way to provoke Russia. It seems like they almost want a world war with Russia and China before they become more powerful foes. I just hope we’re able to see peace soon and get back to building instead of trying to tear down everyone and destroy everything.

[TwitchySeal]

People take for granted that the main reason behind the invasion of Ukraine is the presence of NATO in eastern Europe

People take for granted that the main reason behind NATO existing is Stalin and the main reason for NATO expanding is Putin.

It literally exists to discourage crazy Russian leaders from running around invading countries and being assholes.

If Putin doesn't invade Ukraine, Finland doesn't join NATO.  

Scary times. It seems like NATO is going out of their way to provoke Russia. It seems like they almost want a world war with Russia and China before they become more powerful foes. I just hope we’re able to see peace soon and get back to building instead of trying to tear down everyone and destroy everything.

I wonder if Putin realizes how many loyal Trumptards are rooting for him and eating up the Kremlin "Russia is the victim" nonsense.

Is it because Trump only says nice things about him, or because he got Trump elected in 2016?  

Or is it because you're rooting against the US because you would happily accept your country losing if it meant you got to watch Biden lose.

[Die_empty]

Has Finland been actively fighting with Russia and killing Russians for years like Ukraine has? Russia was attempting to trade freely with other countries. But the US didn't like this, and started using Ukraine long ago to try to stop Russian free trade. Russia's invasion of Ukraine was only a defensive measure against the US, who was using Ukraine.

At this point, since there is much conflict already, and Russia has given Nato ultimatums that Nato is disregarding, why should Russia make more threats against Nato? When the time comes, Russia will have to get serious about war... and do it... against all of Europe and the US. And it seems like China and some other countries will side with Russia.

Russia doesn't want war. Russia wants free trade among nations. It's the US that is trying to conquer Russia and break her apart. They have said that they are trying to do this, and now they are showing it by supplying Ukraine militarily.

All countries talk. We see it in the news. The thing we don't see is the thing they are keeping private. We can't take media talk at face value. There are as many lies in the media as there are in the US and Nato, like their breaking of the Minsk agreements.

Finland joining Nato means nothing. It might even backfire on Nato since there are many Finns who are somewhat in favor of Russia. How do we know? There has been relative peace along the border of Finland and Russia for years or decades.

There is no international law that limits Nato from spreading and there is none that stops Russia from also expanding its influence through trade and diplomacy with other countries. Currently, Russia has gotten and still seeking new partnerships. We have recently seen the strengthening of BRICS which includes industrialized nations like Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa.
Both Russia and NATO should allow nations to freely choose their association or partner without restrictions. Let America be also willing not to stop any of its neighbors from having military and political alliances with Russia.

It was not America that advised Russia to go to war, therefore you cannot blame the US for the war. Russia would have sought other means to reconcile her difference with the nation's neighbor. War was a political and military blunder because Russia thought the war will be short. There are some external influences from wars that are uncontrollable. Both Russia and NATO should drop their pride and accept that they wished that this war didn't happen. Both parties and the world is still suffering from the effect of this war.

[Hispo]

People take for granted that the main reason behind the invasion of Ukraine is the presence of NATO in eastern Europe

People take for granted that the main reason behind NATO existing is Stalin and the main reason for NATO expanding is Putin.

It literally exists to discourage crazy Russian leaders from running around invading countries and being assholes.

If Putin doesn't invade Ukraine, Finland doesn't join NATO.  

If I recall correctly from my high school history lessons, the NATO was founded to counter the influence of the Soviet Union, her allies and satellite countries that were part of the Warsaw pact. The Warsaw pact was a socialist/communist version of the NATO, so the table was served for the cold war.

In the end, the Warsaw path ended up collapsing and NATO prevailed. One must wonder what would have happened if the West decided to disband NATO after the cold war, nonetheless we could argue they were visionary enough to stay together in the case of the establishment of authoritarian regimes in China and Russia, which ended up becoming a reality.

Still, it is interesting to see people from USA and Europe verbally defend Russia, knowing that any Russian doing the same in their motherland would be imprisoned.

[Ever-young]

There is no international law that limits Nato from spreading and there is none that stops Russia from also expanding its influence through trade and diplomacy with other countries. Currently, Russia has gotten and still seeking new partnerships. We have recently seen the strengthening of BRICS which includes industrialized nations like Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa.
Both Russia and NATO should allow nations to freely choose their association or partner without restrictions. Let America be also willing not to stop any of its neighbors from having military and political alliances with Russia.

Both NATO and the Russian have no limit to where they can expand to. The people will choose base on their own interests.
NATO is also not forcing any country to join them, but countries with lesser military and political powers are the ones going under the Umbrella of NATO for collaboration and protection.

Russia thought the war will be short. There are some external influences from wars that are uncontrollable. Both Russia and NATO should drop their pride and accept that they wished that this war didn't happen. Both parties and the world is still suffering from the effect of this war.

Russian did not go into the War because they believe it will be short. They went into war because they believe they will win without any long resistance, assuming it went as planned for them, they would have probably been on the next neighboring countries right now.

[BADecker]

Finland is in because Nato is losing, and needs all the help they can get.

[o48o]

-cut-
At this point, since there is much conflict already, and Russia has given Nato ultimatums that Nato is disregarding, why should Russia make more threats against Nato? When the time comes, Russia will have to get serious about war... and do it... against all of Europe and the US. And it seems like China and some other countries will side with Russia.
-cut-

They are doing all they can already and still russia is losing men left and right. Putin has a cancer special medical operation and Putin's Russia is near total collapse. Everyone with a brain and means to do it has already fleed the country. And if by "getting serious" you mean Russia nuking Ukraine, china wouldn't side with Russia after that. No one would. Well North Korea might but when your only friends are North Korea you might have F*cked up.

Finland is in because Nato is losing, and needs all the help they can get.

Nato is literally gaining more ground and isn't at war with russia so how is it losing exactly? And for sure, Finland could have probably defended ourselves as well, as we have done it in the past but as Russia haven't attacked on nato countries, why wait for them to attack.

[electronicash]

Finland I think is not hostile to Russia, they don't have people in the borders wishing to be part of Russia as well. Ukrainians in the Donbas was wishing to be part of Russia which in that region was all Ukraine separatists wanting to be independent.

but i think Sanna Marin won in Finland despite her ridiculous party dance because she is also supported by Nato. it only needs an intelligence report to find out what is going on in Finland before Russia takes action.

[BADecker]

-cut-
At this point, since there is much conflict already, and Russia has given Nato ultimatums that Nato is disregarding, why should Russia make more threats against Nato? When the time comes, Russia will have to get serious about war... and do it... against all of Europe and the US. And it seems like China and some other countries will side with Russia.
-cut-

They are doing all they can already and still russia is losing men left and right. Putin has a cancer special medical operation and Putin's Russia is near total collapse. Everyone with a brain and means to do it has already fleed the country. And if by "getting serious" you mean Russia nuking Ukraine, china wouldn't side with Russia after that. No one would. Well North Korea might but when your only friends are North Korea you might have F*cked up.

Finland is in because Nato is losing, and needs all the help they can get.

Nato is literally gaining more ground and isn't at war with russia so how is it losing exactly? And for sure, Finland could have probably defended ourselves as well, as we have done it in the past but as Russia haven't attacked on nato countries, why wait for them to attack.

How in the world dense are you? That you would think that the US and Nato are not at war with Russia. Look at all the money and armament that the US and Nato sent to Ukraine to fight Russia. World media is showing all about this. And you think that the US and Nato aren't fighting Russia? Lol.

Finland into Nato is a show, just to make people like you think that Russia is losing, so you and others like you keep on supplying your governments with money to send to Ukraine. Average people of Finland and other Nato countries don't want a war with Russia. But they are getting it because the leaders are warmongers.

[o48o]

How in the world dense are you? That you would think that the US and Nato are not at war with Russia. Look at all the money and armament that the US and Nato sent to Ukraine to fight Russia. World media is showing all about this. And you think that the US and Nato aren't fighting Russia? Lol.

Finland into Nato is a show, just to make people like you think that Russia is losing, so you and others like you keep on supplying your governments with money to send to Ukraine. Average people of Finland and other Nato countries don't want a war with Russia. But they are getting it because the leaders are warmongers.

Your thoughts that we would be manipulated by our "leaders" is insane and from playbook of Kremlin propaganda. But sounds like you don't know how wars work either. There might be a "cold war", that's debatable but if nato actually joined in to actual war, oh boy you would know. And you are right that no one of us want the war, but most of us want to support Ukraine by arming them and supporting otherwise. If russia wants to start actual war because of it.

Russia withdrawing their forces and paying for their war crimes would be so much easier.

[BADecker]

How in the world dense are you? That you would think that the US and Nato are not at war with Russia. Look at all the money and armament that the US and Nato sent to Ukraine to fight Russia. World media is showing all about this. And you think that the US and Nato aren't fighting Russia? Lol.

Finland into Nato is a show, just to make people like you think that Russia is losing, so you and others like you keep on supplying your governments with money to send to Ukraine. Average people of Finland and other Nato countries don't want a war with Russia. But they are getting it because the leaders are warmongers.

Your thoughts that we would be manipulated by our "leaders" is insane and from playbook of Kremlin propaganda. But sounds like you don't know how wars work either. There might be a "cold war", that's debatable but if nato actually joined in to actual war, oh boy you would know. And you are right that no one of us want the war, but most of us want to support Ukraine by arming them and supporting otherwise. If russia wants to start actual war because of it.

Russia withdrawing their forces and paying for their war crimes would be so much easier.

I would agree that it is probably much more difficult for the people of a smaller country like Finland to be overcome by the leaders and media of your country, but your own fear of the Stalin years and their possible return might cloud your judgment.

More than anything, Russia is fighting encroachment by the US and Nato. You remember that Russia dropped the USSR 'act' decades ago. But they did it for peace, not for the US providing continual encroachment to break them up... as the US is attempting to do through NATO and Ukraine.

The Ukraine problem is about the US becoming active through Ukraine, killing Russians and Ukrainians, like Stalin did many of his own people. US in Ukraine was is essentially Stalin in the body of Zelensky. That is why Russia invaded, and to stop the advancement and encroachment of the US on Russia through Nato.

Maybe Finland has some big armament hidden away there, but joining Nato just as Ukraine was trying to do, is really asking for it... even if you don't do a single thing for the next 100 years to advance against Russia.

It's not like Finland was simply acting for better trade relations with the US and Nato countries. It's like teasing a bear who is already slapping at an enemy, and arming up for major war. Finland stupidity.

[paxmao]

How in the world dense are you? That you would think that the US and Nato are not at war with Russia. Look at all the money and armament that the US and Nato sent to Ukraine to fight Russia. World media is showing all about this. And you think that the US and Nato aren't fighting Russia? Lol.

Finland into Nato is a show, just to make people like you think that Russia is losing, so you and others like you keep on supplying your governments with money to send to Ukraine. Average people of Finland and other Nato countries don't want a war with Russia. But they are getting it because the leaders are warmongers.

Your thoughts that we would be manipulated by our "leaders" is insane and from playbook of Kremlin propaganda. But sounds like you don't know how wars work either. There might be a "cold war", that's debatable but if nato actually joined in to actual war, oh boy you would know. And you are right that no one of us want the war, but most of us want to support Ukraine by arming them and supporting otherwise. If russia wants to start actual war because of it.

Russia withdrawing their forces and paying for their war crimes would be so much easier.

I would agree that it is probably much more difficult for the people of a smaller country like Finland to be overcome by the leaders and media of your country, but your own fear of the Stalin years and their possible return might cloud your judgment.

More than anything, Russia is fighting encroachment by the US and Nato. You remember that Russia dropped the USSR 'act' decades ago. But they did it for peace, not for the US providing continual encroachment to break them up... as the US is attempting to do through NATO and Ukraine.

The Ukraine problem is about the US becoming active through Ukraine, killing Russians and Ukrainians, like Stalin did many of his own people. US in Ukraine was is essentially Stalin in the body of Zelensky. That is why Russia invaded, and to stop the advancement and encroachment of the US on Russia through Nato.

Maybe Finland has some big armament hidden away there, but joining Nato just as Ukraine was trying to do, is really asking for it... even if you don't do a single thing for the next 100 years to advance against Russia.

It's not like Finland was simply acting for better trade relations with the US and Nato countries. It's like teasing a bear who is already slapping at an enemy, and arming up for major war. Finland stupidity.

...

Nah, just tales from BADecker land again. No justification,  just blurting fact-less statements to justify allowing the expansion of the RF by means of war.

Countries are perfectly right to defend themselves and they are watching how Putin's government went to an unnecessary war in 2014, then now to grab more land and obviously they are thinking "I could be next". Now, BADecker takes the "fly" answer, Finland takes the "stand" attitude.

Why is better the "stand" attitude? Because there is nowhere to "fly" to. Finland has a long border with an expansionist and aggressive neighbour. I am sure they would rather be somewhere else, but things are how they are.

Now, what is safer for Finland, be out of NATO and risk being the next Ukraine or be under the Article 5 umbrella? The answer could not be more simple.

[BADecker]

How in the world dense are you? That you would think that the US and Nato are not at war with Russia. Look at all the money and armament that the US and Nato sent to Ukraine to fight Russia. World media is showing all about this. And you think that the US and Nato aren't fighting Russia? Lol.

Finland into Nato is a show, just to make people like you think that Russia is losing, so you and others like you keep on supplying your governments with money to send to Ukraine. Average people of Finland and other Nato countries don't want a war with Russia. But they are getting it because the leaders are warmongers.

Your thoughts that we would be manipulated by our "leaders" is insane and from playbook of Kremlin propaganda. But sounds like you don't know how wars work either. There might be a "cold war", that's debatable but if nato actually joined in to actual war, oh boy you would know. And you are right that no one of us want the war, but most of us want to support Ukraine by arming them and supporting otherwise. If russia wants to start actual war because of it.

Russia withdrawing their forces and paying for their war crimes would be so much easier.

I would agree that it is probably much more difficult for the people of a smaller country like Finland to be overcome by the leaders and media of your country, but your own fear of the Stalin years and their possible return might cloud your judgment.

More than anything, Russia is fighting encroachment by the US and Nato. You remember that Russia dropped the USSR 'act' decades ago. But they did it for peace, not for the US providing continual encroachment to break them up... as the US is attempting to do through NATO and Ukraine.

The Ukraine problem is about the US becoming active through Ukraine, killing Russians and Ukrainians, like Stalin did many of his own people. US in Ukraine was is essentially Stalin in the body of Zelensky. That is why Russia invaded, and to stop the advancement and encroachment of the US on Russia through Nato.

Maybe Finland has some big armament hidden away there, but joining Nato just as Ukraine was trying to do, is really asking for it... even if you don't do a single thing for the next 100 years to advance against Russia.

It's not like Finland was simply acting for better trade relations with the US and Nato countries. It's like teasing a bear who is already slapping at an enemy, and arming up for major war. Finland stupidity.

...

Nah, just tales from BADecker land again. No justification,  just blurting fact-less statements to justify allowing the expansion of the RF by means of war.

Countries are perfectly right to defend themselves and they are watching how Putin's government went to an unnecessary war in 2014, then now to grab more land and obviously they are thinking "I could be next". Now, BADecker takes the "fly" answer, Finland takes the "stand" attitude.

Why is better the "stand" attitude? Because there is nowhere to "fly" to. Finland has a long border with an expansionist and aggressive neighbour. I am sure they would rather be somewhere else, but things are how they are.

Now, what is safer for Finland, be out of NATO and risk being the next Ukraine or be under the Article 5 umbrella? The answer could not be more simple.

You jokers are so funny. So is Finland. Lol. All they are doing is trying to keep the Finns inside. If Ukraine had done this, they would have kept millions from fleeing, and they would have had a whole lot more people to join their military, and more people to manufacture arms to fight Russia.

Nato is done for.


Finland Unveils 1st Section Of Russian Border Fence After Joining NATO


https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/finland-unveils-1st-section-russian-border-fence-after-joining-nato
The nearly half-billion dollar fence is expected to be completed by 2026, and is topped with barbed wire and has a height of three meters (or nearly 10-feet tall).

"We started work on the site about a month ago. We have built a road and foundations," a representative of the construction company GRK told the AFP.

According to more from AFP: "About 70% of the fence will be erected on the southeast, with several smaller sections planned for central Finland and the largely uninhabited Arctic border in Lapland."
...

[Desmong]

This may later escalate into a full term war if things continue like this. I don't even see a reason why Finland would join NATO which may not be a good decision for them. Russia may want to attack Finland for them joining NATO which is serving as a security breach to the Russian federation. Ukraine is suffering this now and I hope things are going to end soon.

[o48o]

-cut-
You jokers are so funny. So is Finland. Lol. All they are doing is trying to keep the Finns inside.
-cut-

If you only knew how stupid and childish that sounds and how ridiculous your sources are. In Finland we have a free healthcare, free education, free speech, clean water, free government pension and ton of other things you can just google. And Finland is one of the least corrupt countries in the world. Why would Finnish people want to leave? So maybe you don't know anything.

[examplens]

You jokers are so funny. So is Finland. Lol. All they are doing is trying to keep the Finns inside. If Ukraine had done this, they would have kept millions from fleeing, and they would have had a whole lot more people to join their military, and more people to manufacture arms to fight Russia.

Oh, don't be naive. believe me, the only ones who want to leave the country so they don't end up as soldiers are the Russians. For example, just last year, about 170,000 (data from January '23, now it is certainly much more) Russian citizens immigrated to my country. It's like a smaller city, and it's mostly young and financially independent from the home country.

[TwitchySeal]

More than anything, Russia is fighting encroachment by the US and Nato.

Encroachment is when one party crosses the boundary of someone else's property.

Nobody is encroaching on Russia.  The last ones to do that were the Germans. Nobody wants to encroach on Russia.  They have lots of nukes. 

Russia is encroaching on Ukraine.