PeachBitcoin.com | P2P Bitcoin Exchange 🍑 #kycfree

[n0nce]

The question now arises is how the app stores this type of communication. Whether it's point to point or not. But that, I can no longer answer. On the other hand, as there is no kyc, it is difficult to obtain a court order to present the data. Whose data, if they don't identify anyone?

Looking at my example. Even if the seller has problems with the law, the only information they have is the transfer of money via mobile phone. A system widely used among friends and family to pay for group meals, so little to no indication that it has anything to do with BTC.

Well, mobile phone numbers are nowadays often tied to real identities using KYC. So if this communication is not encrypted end-to-end without backdoors or implementation flaws, a three-letter agency could knock at Peach's door, fetch a copy of their data, map phone numbers to identities and end up with a nice list of 'suspicious P2P Bitcoin investors'.

A non-insignificant number of governments nowadays push the narrative that striving for privacy, trying to avoid KYC and using P2P exchanges instead, for instance, is suspicious / criminal behavior or criminally motivated.

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[joker_josue]

Well, mobile phone numbers are nowadays often tied to real identities using KYC. So if this communication is not encrypted end-to-end without backdoors or implementation flaws, a three-letter agency could knock at Peach's door, fetch a copy of their data, map phone numbers to identities and end up with a nice list of 'suspicious P2P Bitcoin investors'.

A non-insignificant number of governments nowadays push the narrative that striving for privacy, trying to avoid KYC and using P2P exchanges instead, for instance, is suspicious / criminal behavior or criminally motivated.

I'm not saying no, I'm just giving an example of a use case. It is also complicated now to explain how the app works. You can still use VPN to access the app, and not use VPN when paying. But, they would have to be investigating someone specifically, to be able to draw those conclusions. And it should be noted that there are payment methods that are only available in each country, being the users of that country to know how to use it in the best possible way. But, I'm not saying it's impossible.

Almost any P2P method has elements that can be unidentifiable. Unless both people meet and hand money to each other.

Now, Peach has to create (if she hasn't already created) a way for the data not to be stored, at least for a long time.

[dkbit98]

Right now, I believe Robosats may honestly be a more private option, since you use it through Tor and it receives no 'device information' like a mobile app, doesn't deliver notifications through centralized Google / Apple servers and so on.

Yeah but I don't think you can use Robosats for meetups and trading face to face for cash, plus I think there are much more options in Peach compared to Robosats.
I think adding support for Tor would be a good idea for Peach, and maybe Robosats and Peach Bitcoin can work together in future.
In theory Peach could alter create web app with limited functionality, like The Bitcoin Company did with their no-kyc cards.

Well, mobile phone numbers are nowadays often tied to real identities using KYC. So if this communication is not encrypted end-to-end without backdoors or implementation flaws, a three-letter agency could knock at Peach's door, fetch a copy of their data, map phone numbers to identities and end up with a nice list of 'suspicious P2P Bitcoin investors'.

Communication is done within Peach app and I think it's encrypted, so I don't think there is anything connected with phone numbers.
My biggest complain to Peach is that source code needs to be released as open source, for code encryption to be inspected for bugs and exploits.

[n0nce]

Right now, I believe Robosats may honestly be a more private option, since you use it through Tor and it receives no 'device information' like a mobile app, doesn't deliver notifications through centralized Google / Apple servers and so on.

Yeah but I don't think you can use Robosats for meetups and trading face to face for cash, plus I think there are much more options in Peach compared to Robosats.
I think adding support for Tor would be a good idea for Peach, and maybe Robosats and Peach Bitcoin can work together in future.

Tor and open-source code are an absolute must for me. Robosats does have a 'F2F' option, by the way. You can even enter a custom payment option yourself.
Even if Peach may have more features, privacy should always be number 1 priority. But I guess it could be a good alternative to CEX for mobile users who don't own a computer that runs Tor Browser.

In theory Peach could alter create web app with limited functionality, like The Bitcoin Company did with their no-kyc cards.

Why limited? I'm really interested to understand why this needs to be an app. Maybe I will just install it in an emulator and have a look myself.

Communication is done within Peach app and I think it's encrypted, so I don't think there is anything connected with phone numbers.

Their Google Play page says they collect the in-app messages, crash logs, diagnostics, and device identifiers. Such an identifier would let them connect your trades, whereas reloading Robosats will give you a completely fresh, unlinked identity.



Be aware that 'encrypted in transit' merely refers to the usage of HTTPS (TLS). When the data reaches the server, it is in the clear again. If you're unlucky, they might use Cloudflare, so those folks will have a copy of the data as well. As long as there is no end-to-end encryption in place.
Usually people use E2E as a selling point and plaster it all over the place, which I haven't seen on the pretty Peach Bitcoin website yet.



One good thing I did notice is that they use a Let's Encrypt TLS certificate for their website at least, instead of Cloudflare.

[dkbit98]

Tor and open-source code are an absolute must for me. Robosats does have a 'F2F' option, by the way. You can even enter a custom payment option yourself.
Even if Peach may have more features, privacy should always be number 1 priority. But I guess it could be a good alternative to CEX for mobile users who don't own a computer that runs Tor Browser.

Yes that is exactly the reason why I like what Peach is doing.
There are much more mobile users than computer users today, especially in third world countries, so growth potential is much bigger.
If I had the option to choose I would always use desktop solution with Tor, something like Bisq or Robosats is good for that.

Why limited? I'm really interested to understand why this needs to be an app. Maybe I will just install it in an emulator and have a look myself.

It's limited for The Bitcoin Company (and their cards), and I don't know why, maybe because it's still in early beta phase.
I have no idea how thsi would work for Peach Bitcoin.

Their Google Play page says they collect the in-app messages, crash logs, diagnostics, and device identifiers. Such an identifier would let them connect your trades, whereas reloading Robosats will give you a completely fresh, unlinked identity.

Well yeah, that is what you get when you install most of the google and iOS apps, but I am not sure if the same happens with direct APK file.
It's certainly a good to read Terms & Conditions and Privacy Policy page before using Peach:
https://peachbitcoin.com/privacy-policy/
https://peachbitcoin.com/terms-and-conditions/

[joker_josue]

The question now arises is how the app stores this type of communication. Whether it's point to point or not. But that, I can no longer answer. On the other hand, as there is no kyc, it is difficult to obtain a court order to present the data. Whose data, if they don't identify anyone?

Looking at my example. Even if the seller has problems with the law, the only information they have is the transfer of money via mobile phone. A system widely used among friends and family to pay for group meals, so little to no indication that it has anything to do with BTC.

Well, mobile phone numbers are nowadays often tied to real identities using KYC. So if this communication is not encrypted end-to-end without backdoors or implementation flaws, a three-letter agency could knock at Peach's door, fetch a copy of their data, map phone numbers to identities and end up with a nice list of 'suspicious P2P Bitcoin investors'.

Just one more note on this point: you don't need to do everything on the same mobile phone.

You can install/use the app on one device. And then make the payment via another device. Payments are made outside the app, so you can easily do things without linking one thing to another.

[n0nce]

Why limited? I'm really interested to understand why this needs to be an app. Maybe I will just install it in an emulator and have a look myself.

It's limited for The Bitcoin Company (and their cards), and I don't know why, maybe because it's still in early beta phase.
I have no idea how thsi would work for Peach Bitcoin.

I was looking for a technical reason; if it's due to being in early beta, they could just as well have focused on getting it to work (at all; as well as with non-limited functionality) in an anonymous browser before doing the app, for instance.

It's certainly a good to read Terms & Conditions and Privacy Policy page before using Peach:
https://peachbitcoin.com/privacy-policy/
https://peachbitcoin.com/terms-and-conditions/

Sure, but I prefer reading code instead. Only code gives you the full picture and confidence about what data is really collected and uploaded to their servers.

[RickDeckard]

It's certainly a good to read Terms & Conditions and Privacy Policy page before using Peach:
https://peachbitcoin.com/privacy-policy/
https://peachbitcoin.com/terms-and-conditions/

Sure, but I prefer reading code instead. Only code gives you the full picture and confidence about what data is really collected and uploaded to their servers.

Just letting you know that this has been discussed in the beginning of the thread[1] - the plan of this application is to go open source in the near future (I would say that it still could happen this year, but one never knows). Peach also gave an the interview recently[2] with the Foundation team and the open source subject is discussed here[3]. On that subject, I could sum up their reply in the following bullet points:

• They want verifiable source code first to legally protect them against possible application copies based on their work;
• It also took them a lot of time to get their API ready (which seems to be almost ready) in order to make sure that 1 person only has 1 account and doesn't exploit the system (in this case the daily trade limit) and thus comply with regulations. Naturally their API will also be open source;
• The planned license to implement in the MITCC. MITCC basically allows any user to use the code to create another application but aren't able to create a company based on the code used (by Peach Wallet). This was also explained better on this segment of the podcast[4].

[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5448414.msg62121530#msg62121530
[2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_dh6nusghk
[3]https://youtu.be/w_dh6nusghk?t=2196
[4]https://youtu.be/w_dh6nusghk?t=2386

[Agbe]

Hey Bitcointalk!

I would like to introduce you to Peach, a mobile application that directly connects buyers and sellers of BTC. Bitcoin is winning, we believe we are part of the good people who wanna win with Bitcoin, and we want Peach, whose aim is make stacking sats p2p the standard, to be known.

Though I am commenting late but nothing is late in the forum. Exchange is one of the best platform in the cryptocurrency ecosystem world. But which of the exchange is the best customer friendly is the issue on ground. The one that is trying right now is Binance exchange platform. So if you are coming to the exchange platforms then you have compete with Binance if you can do that.

Building a great product is cool, but it’s cooler if people actually use it.  

People will use it when they discovered that the platform is good to use. It is the people will still advertise it to other people so the major thing here is your customer friendly attitude.

We want peach to learn from the user insights! We intend to strengthen our position in the p2p niche and want to start with Bitcointalk, moreover, we have already started some preparations, so we will announce ourselves in full force very soon! Please feel free to ask!

- https://twitter.com/peachbitcoin
- https://peachbitcoin.com/how-it-works/

Then you have to create two campaigns here in the forum for the massive awareness. Signature campaign and Review campaign. These two campaigns will give you enough customers to the site.

[RickDeckard]

Then you have to create two campaigns here in the forum for the massive awareness. Signature campaign and Review campaign. These two campaigns will give you enough customers to the site.

I don't think that Peach is ready for mass marketing (yet) and it seems that I am not the only one thinking about that[1]. If I were them, I would wait until their previously shared roadmap is done[2] before considering making a signature campaign (if they ever do one). The reason for that is simple - you have to have a mature product in order to receive/attract a larger audience than they currently have. So far the UI also seems to be a bit rough in some areas but also the options could be improved (for example you only have the option to empty your Peach Wallet to an address of yours, you can't make a custom transfer). Make no mistake, I totally support small companies in spreading a word regarding their product, but I also believe that in order for a campaign to be successful, the product itself has to have a certain maturity in order to avoid the usual problems that non-mature app have (crashing, confusing UI, servers overloading, amongst others).

In the future, if they do decide to run a campaign here, I'm sure icopress is up to the task .

PS: I think it is worthwhile to mention that, despise having invested 0 sats[3] in their app, their volume traded has surpassed a million CHF[4]. Congratulations on the achievement @Peach Bitcoin!
[1]https://nitter.it/peachbitcoin/status/1659993332196470785
[2]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5448414.msg62121530#msg62121530
[3]https://nitter.it/peachbitcoin/status/1661434993606885389
[4]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5448414.msg62190426#msg62190426

[dkbit98]

Sure, but I prefer reading code instead. Only code gives you the full picture and confidence about what data is really collected and uploaded to their servers.

I agree, even if I am not developer and can't read the code very well, but I know other security experts will do it.
Good news is that Peach devs announced they are moving everything to opensource, but without any eta.
It would be best if they could say more about that, since they are already registered in forum.

The planned license to implement in the MITCC. MITCC basically allows any user to use the code to create another application but aren't able to create a company based on the code used (by Peach Wallet).

Dies MITCC means MIT Common Clause license?
If that is the case, than this is not really open source license, similar stuff is used by Coldcard and this is verifiable code.
I will have to find some time to listen that podcast.

[RickDeckard]

Dies MITCC means MIT Common Clause license?
If that is the case, than this is not really open source license, similar stuff is used by Coldcard and this is verifiable code.
I will have to find some time to listen that podcast.

Reading your definition of it and after listening to the podcast section, I would say that yes, it is the same license. This is mostly because your information matches with my bullet points - they want to protect the code to be used by other people and prevent (exterior) financial benefit.

[n0nce]

Dies MITCC means MIT Common Clause license?
If that is the case, than this is not really open source license, similar stuff is used by Coldcard and this is verifiable code.
I will have to find some time to listen that podcast.

Reading your definition of it and after listening to the podcast section, I would say that yes, it is the same license. This is mostly because your information matches with my bullet points - they want to protect the code to be used by other people and prevent (exterior) financial benefit.

I'm not a fan of this either. They want the benefits of open-source: have other people look at their code, getting people to help them find bugs, the good reputation of FOSS etc. while not committing to real 'free open-source software'.
It would only be fair to let people use the code freely by e.g. launching a modified version of the code, for instance to make a Monero exchange or whatnot. Then, the original project can learn from the bug fixes and modifications of the 'fork team' and implement those changes, too. Win-win.
Also security-wise, I highly doubt you will get any 'free security reviews' and bug fixing pull requests if people are meant to do them purely out of the kindness of their heart.

[dkbit98]

Reading your definition of it and after listening to the podcast section, I would say that yes, it is the same license. This is mostly because your information matches with my bullet points - they want to protect the code to be used by other people and prevent (exterior) financial benefit.

This license is better than closed source but it's clearly not open source.
I don't want this to become industry standard, just because you don't want someone else to fork your code (and maybe improve it).
However,  this is still better than current license they are using now, but they shouldn't put open source label on it.

It would only be fair to let people use the code freely by e.g. launching a modified version of the code, for instance to make a Monero exchange or whatnot. Then, the original project can learn from the bug fixes and modifications of the 'fork team' and implement those changes, too. Win-win.

I guess we should all thank ''NVK coldcard'' for this invention... shame^(not) Satoshi was not so ''smart'' to do the same thing with Bitcoin license 

[icopress]

It looks like my unobtrusive congratulation turned into a lot of retweets for my pizza. 

[RickDeckard]

It looks like my unobtrusive congratulation turned into a lot of retweets for my pizza. 

That sure is some devotion to both pizza and Peach! I sure hope it was as tasty as it looks! Peach gets exposition and you get to taste some delicious pizza - Win win?

[RickDeckard]

Secondly, as per Steph announcement (who I assume runs the OP account) today, Peach has surpassed the millionth CHF volume traded (which equals to roughly 45 BTC as of now). For a project that started in September of 2022[1][2], I find this amount awesome and it makes be believe that P2P adoption has a good future ahead.

Sorry for the double post but thought that this could be interesting - As of 15th of June, Peach has surpassed 55 P2P BTC traded in their app/service. In about 1.5 months they were able to increase the volume by 10 BTC which is great considering that their marketing is still low and they are still ironing out their app. Congrats @Peach Bitcoin!

[icopress]

Looks like Peach is heading in the right direction. 

I also spoke with Steph not too long ago and she was kind enough to share what they want to focus on in the near future.

Code:

1. Open order book, peach can be built on nostr 
2. Built-in market discovery data (I think that’s the killer use case) 
3. LN integration

Guys... I can't tell you what a positive charge comes from this bitcoin maximalist.

[RickDeckard]

Taking advantage of that update, I recently also found out that QnA (Head of Customer Service of Foundation Devices[1]) wrote a really in depth guide[2] regarding how to use Peach Bitcoin that is really useful for users that may be interested in trying out the service.
Regarding going open source, @capoczino, the lead developer of the wallet, has recently talked about it:

To be clear, the app will be source code verifiable under MIT-CC

But we are going to make some parts available under MIT license such as the API wrapper

[1]https://foundationdevices.com/about/
[2]https://bitcoiner.guide/peach/
[3]https://nitter.nl/capoczino/status/1681546380836319232

[LeGaulois]

I didn't know Nostr until 2-3 days ago. (yes I know, what a shame). It's amazing what can be done with it and when I thought about it, the idea is very similar to Bitcoin's keys.
By jumping in the train, PeachBitcoin would really be an early adoptor in this area.

Another thing:
They said the dispute rate is about 2%. Very low to me, but the matter was they're not in shame to say it. I was a bit surprised.
I've never heard a platform having this transparency about it.

(generally speaking, honesty is rewarding soon or later)