(Ordinals) BRC-20 needs to be removed

[larry_vw_1955]

It all comes down to how you define Decentralized Finance. You could put Bitcoin and what it offers under the category of "Decentralized Finance" and it does offer a solution for the "unbanked".

i don't think bitcoin was designed to help people who were having difficulty because they were unable to get a traditional bank account. it will never replace that. pretty much no one takes bitcoin as payment...so for someone to think that bitcoin is the solution to them not having a bank account, all they are going to have is a private key on a piece of paper or some trezor but if they can't verify their ID and things like then no one is going to touch them with a 10 foot pole. including p2p exhcangers. because most p2p is not done face to face. unless they can find someone like that then they are stuck with bitcoin without a way to use it. and then what's even worse, begging people to take their bitcoin. "i have this bitcoin here...i'll give it to you at a discount..."

The problem is when these days people talk about "Decentralized Finance" they are referring to the DeFi token creation hype where they create an utterly useless token on a token creation platform like ethereum and pump and dump it. That's not Decentralized Finance at all! That's more like selling dog poop in a pretty bag!

hopefully that misleading term "defi" goes away since all it is really is a gateway word to scamming people that don't realize there is no such thing as them being their own bank and making 15% on top of that.  

The unbanked are people who have issues to access bank system and can not have their bank account.

what issues are those exactly because they need to work them out so they can actually be a part of society. you cannot be a participating member of society without a bank account that's just the honest truth at least here in the usa. if they have money to buy bitcoin they have money to open a bank account.

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[pooya87]

pretty much no one takes bitcoin as payment.

That's a bold guess.
You are basically claiming that the payment processor companies like Bitpay, Coinbase, etc. are dead and over 3 million users they have are fake, the thousands of "payments" they process per day is fake and so on!
And that's just centralized payment processors that only a small fraction of the Bitcoin world uses. The rest of the "payments" are direct and without middle men like Bitpay...

[Wind_FURY]

[...]

Theoretically, lightning can work without Bitcoin, but practically, it has little to no purpose. I presume that's what pooya meant. You'd use lightning mostly to avoid paying an outrageous amount of money for a low-value Bitcoin transaction, but beyond that it isn't useful. Litecoin's mempool is mostly empty, micro-transactions can take place there cheaply and get confirmed soon enough. Needless to mention that most lightning software is written to work on Bitcoin and isn't tested anywhere else.

What does that mean, ser? Practically those channels in the Lightning Network are actual Bitcoin transactions that haven't been settled on-chain yet. What Lightning could be is a sort of organized mempool where users could send and receive Bitcoin pre-confirmation.

Or did I simply misunderstand, and you're trying to say is Lightning "can be built" on top of other chains, not only Bitcoin?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[DooMAD]

Or did I simply misunderstand, and you're trying to say is Lightning "can be built" on top of other chains, not only Bitcoin?

It is fully built and functional on other chains, like Litecoin and Vertcoin.  It just doesn't see anywhere near the same level of usage.  170 public channels in LTC versus over 50000 BTC channels.  And no one can even be bothered to keep count of the ones on Vertcoin anymore because it's completely insignificant.

[cryptosize]

A project that is centralized in Vitalik hands, was premined and was rolled back like Ethereum blockchain, is not a decentralized project and blockchain.

If Ethereum can not be decentralized, other altcoin projects and blockchain are only more centralized than Ethereum.

Just because ETH is centralized (even more so with PoS), it doesn't mean that every altcoin is centralized. That's a bit dismissive, don't you think?

Are Litecoin, Monero centralized? Just to name a few...

Regarding Lightning, necessity is the mother of invention.

When on chain transactions are dirt cheap, there is absolutely no reason to use L2:

https://litecoinspace.org/

Bitcoin was like that 15 years ago...

If Litecoin became really popular, then it would face the exact same scaling issues.

[Wind_FURY]

A project that is centralized in Vitalik hands, was premined and was rolled back like Ethereum blockchain, is not a decentralized project and blockchain.

If Ethereum can not be decentralized, other altcoin projects and blockchain are only more centralized than Ethereum.

Just because ETH is centralized (even more so with PoS), it doesn't mean that every altcoin is centralized. That's a bit dismissive, don't you think?

Are Litecoin, Monero centralized? Just to name a few...

Regarding Lightning, necessity is the mother of invention.

When on chain transactions are dirt cheap, there is absolutely no reason to use L2:

https://litecoinspace.org/

Bitcoin was like that 15 years ago...

If Litecoin became really popular, then it would face the exact same scaling issues.

There will always be a reason to use an off-chain layer on top of Bitcoin that utilizes actual Bitcoin transactions. I believe for those altcoins users that want Bitcoin HODLers to use their chains, prepare to be disappointed if your network won't incentivize HODLers with earning more units denominated in Bitcoin. Your network needs the liquidity more than Bitcoin needs your smaller liquidity. Plus if there isn't a bridge that doesn't rely on third parties to convert Bitcoin and use your chains, then let the "necessity is the mother of invention" build one.

[sherlockphone]

well, There are those who say that this problem will be solved in version 27.0 of bitcoin core:

https://twitter.com/LukeDashjr/status/1732204937466032285
https://www.cryptoglobe.com/latest/2023/12/btc-developer-luke-dashjr-2024-bitcoin-core-update-will-disrupt-ordinals-and-brc-20-tokens/

the only thing that is certain is that they are putting games in the Bitcoin blockchain:

https://decrypt.co/216677/bits-bitcoin-ordinals-game-deadfellaz-dfz-labs

https://ordinals.com/content/521f8eccffa4c41a3a7728dd012ea5a4a02feed81f41159231251ecf1e5c79dai0

what if some idiot puts malicious code into the blockchain and a bigger idiot in the government tries to outlaw the blockchain for some "national security" reasons or crap like that?

[MusaMohamed]

The unbanked are people who have issues to access bank system and can not have their bank account.

what issues are those exactly because they need to work them out so they can actually be a part of society. you cannot be a participating member of society without a bank account that's just the honest truth at least here in the usa. if they have money to buy bitcoin they have money to open a bank account.

It is true in all countries, not only in the USA.

Nowadays, even you are an old person, and you have a small business like a food store, a grocery store, you will have to install and accept many options for payments from your customers, cash most common payment option likely, bank transfer, e-wallet transaction and maybe Bitcoin, cryptocurrency too.

Bitcoin gives us a good option to reduce inconvenience of access to banks but through a long way, people will still have to use banks.

How Can Cryptocurrency Serve The Unbanked?

It is not an article about Bitcoin but has some insights.

[pooya87]

When on chain transactions are dirt cheap, there is absolutely no reason to use L2:

Although LN has been advertised by some as a solution to lower fees, it was never that. LN is a scaling solution to allow you to send large numbers of transactions very quickly and without needing on-chain settlement (without needing to wait for confirmation).

Imagine a trader who wants to move their fund immediately to the exchange and sell it. Without LN they'll have to either keep their coins on exchange and risk losing all of it or make a deposit and wait for 1-6 confirmation that can take up to an hour before they can sell. With LN that's a matter of seconds.

[ABCbits]

well, There are those who say that this problem will be solved in version 27.0 of bitcoin core:

https://twitter.com/LukeDashjr/status/1732204937466032285
https://www.cryptoglobe.com/latest/2023/12/btc-developer-luke-dashjr-2024-bitcoin-core-update-will-disrupt-ordinals-and-brc-20-tokens/

It's somewhat old news and his idea got rejected, check https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/28408.

what if some idiot puts malicious code into the blockchain and a bigger idiot in the government tries to outlaw the blockchain for some "national security" reasons or crap like that?

Such thing already happen, check https://www.righto.com/2014/02/ascii-bernanke-wikileaks-photographs.html. But for better or worse, it's not easy to extract the data.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Or did I simply misunderstand, and you're trying to say is Lightning "can be built" on top of other chains, not only Bitcoin?

That's what I meant, even though there is little to no reason to do it elsewhere.

Imagine a trader who wants to move their fund immediately to the exchange and sell it.

Actually, that's the most useful part of LN, in my opinion. Instant transactions are awesome, but that's rarely the reason I'm paying or receiving in lightning. The greatest property is that you can make nearly infinite transactions by creating just two UTXOs (for each channel). You can't DCA on-chain, with self-custody. You'll lose a lot in transaction fees, especially if you use a decentralized exchange like Bisq which requires at least 4 on-chain transactions for every trade.

Robosats is the best non-KYC, lightning exchange for that particular purpose.

[NotATether]

what if some idiot puts malicious code into the blockchain and a bigger idiot in the government tries to outlaw the blockchain for some "national security" reasons or crap like that?

Such thing already happen, check https://www.righto.com/2014/02/ascii-bernanke-wikileaks-photographs.html. But for better or worse, it's not easy to extract the data.

Or even worse, staggering the malware code across multiple blocks after encoding it in binary. You could fit a lot of viruses or at least payloads into the blockchain like that.. It is quite damningly easy to pull off using Ordinals as long as you have a transaction parser that processes witness data and extracts it from the rest of the block.

All sorts of nasty and malicious things could be stored in the blockchain using this method. This is what the people spamming it with pepes, cypherpunks and dickbutts don't realize.

[ABCbits]

Or did I simply misunderstand, and you're trying to say is Lightning "can be built" on top of other chains, not only Bitcoin?

That's what I meant, even though there is little to no reason to do it elsewhere.

Don't forget it's possible to perform atomic swaps on LN.

what if some idiot puts malicious code into the blockchain and a bigger idiot in the government tries to outlaw the blockchain for some "national security" reasons or crap like that?

Such thing already happen, check https://www.righto.com/2014/02/ascii-bernanke-wikileaks-photographs.html. But for better or worse, it's not easy to extract the data.

Or even worse, staggering the malware code across multiple blocks after encoding it in binary. You could fit a lot of viruses or at least payloads into the blockchain like that.. It is quite damningly easy to pull off using Ordinals as long as you have a transaction parser that processes witness data and extracts it from the rest of the block.

All sorts of nasty and malicious things could be stored in the blockchain using this method. This is what the people spamming it with pepes, cypherpunks and dickbutts don't realize.

I think it's also already happen, which is why Bitcoin Core perform XOR obfuscation on it's files.

[larry_vw_1955]

You are basically claiming that the payment processor companies like Bitpay, Coinbase, etc. are dead and over 3 million users they have are fake, the thousands of "payments" they process per day is fake and so on!
And that's just centralized payment processors that only a small fraction of the Bitcoin world uses. The rest of the "payments" are direct and without middle men like Bitpay...

are you seriouis that bitpay and coinbase are the best use cases for bitcoin you can think of just because they offer some type of crypto debit card that converts your bitcoin into fiat so you can actually buy something? you'll have to do better than that. find a more compelling use case.

in my opinion, all those people with bitpay and coinbase debit cards know that their crypto has no real world use. which is why they got the debit cards in the first place so they could actually get rid of it. and buy something from someone that would not take their crypto direcly...you know what i'm saying. to say nothing of the fact that how do you trust some company to hold your bitcoin for you while you go about figuring out ways to get rid of it by using a debit card?  

Anyhow, I thought you might be happy to know that binance has decided to no longer support Ordinals:

Binance to cease support for all Bitcoin NFTs
https://coinjournal.net/news/binance-to-ceases-support-for-all-bitcoin-nfts/


Binance announces end to Bitcoin NFTs support
A blog post published on Thursday noted that the trading of Bitcoin NFTs on the Binance NFT marketplace ends on April 18. The exchange has advised all users to to withdraw all their Bitcoin NFTs via the BTC network before May 18.

[pooya87]

are you seriouis that bitpay and coinbase are the best use cases for bitcoin....

Where did I say that?
I'm just responding to your speculation that "pretty much no one takes bitcoin as payment" with the most solid statistic that can be found which happens to be from centralized services.

Otherwise as I said in my comment above, a lot more transactions are happening on-chain (without these centralized middle men) where a lot or people are taking bitcoin as payment but there is no solid statistic about that because it is hard to analyze.

[ABCbits]

You are basically claiming that the payment processor companies like Bitpay, Coinbase, etc. are dead and over 3 million users they have are fake, the thousands of "payments" they process per day is fake and so on!
And that's just centralized payment processors that only a small fraction of the Bitcoin world uses. The rest of the "payments" are direct and without middle men like Bitpay...

are you seriouis that bitpay and coinbase are the best use cases for bitcoin you can think of just because they offer some type of crypto debit card that converts your bitcoin into fiat so you can actually buy something? you'll have to do better than that. find a more compelling use case.

I don't understand why you bring up debit card when he talked about payment processor where you can pay directly using Bitcoin and merchant can choose either keep the coin or convert the coin to fiat.

Anyhow, I thought you might be happy to know that binance has decided to no longer support Ordinals:

Binance to cease support for all Bitcoin NFTs
https://coinjournal.net/news/binance-to-ceases-support-for-all-bitcoin-nfts/


Binance announces end to Bitcoin NFTs support
A blog post published on Thursday noted that the trading of Bitcoin NFTs on the Binance NFT marketplace ends on April 18. The exchange has advised all users to to withdraw all their Bitcoin NFTs via the BTC network before May 18.

It's obvious they dropped it since it doesn't make them much money anymore.

[Wind_FURY]

Or did I simply misunderstand, and you're trying to say is Lightning "can be built" on top of other chains, not only Bitcoin?

That's what I meant, even though there is little to no reason to do it elsewhere.

No reason for off-chain unless the high demand for on-chain transactions fill the mempool and/or block space to its full capacity. Ethereum has built off-chain layers, which proves that on-chain, nothing can defy the limitations of hardware and bandwidth. Plus DYOR on Solana's congestion. Their assumptions flawed and laughable. Their developers are not telling their users/community the actual truth on how their design will not work unless they increase bandwidth and hardware requirements while block space demand surges- which would also centralize the network. A fee market must also exist to prevent attackers from spamming the network - currently the surge of spam in Solana is causing transaction failures.

[nutildah]

Anyhow, I thought you might be happy to know that binance has decided to no longer support Ordinals:

Binance to cease support for all Bitcoin NFTs
https://coinjournal.net/news/binance-to-ceases-support-for-all-bitcoin-nfts/


Binance announces end to Bitcoin NFTs support
A blog post published on Thursday noted that the trading of Bitcoin NFTs on the Binance NFT marketplace ends on April 18. The exchange has advised all users to to withdraw all their Bitcoin NFTs via the BTC network before May 18.

Crazy. I'm all for their decision of course. The reason why its crazy is this whole Runes thing was launched only a month or two ago and I guess its completely collapsed in popularity already. Looks like its finally the beginning of the end of the Ordinals Era in Bitcoin.

[larry_vw_1955]

I don't understand why you bring up debit card when he talked about payment processor where you can pay directly using Bitcoin and merchant can choose either keep the coin or convert the coin to fiat.

when you use the coinbase card, you're using fiat to buy something not crypto. they even say it right here on their website:
https://www.coinbase.com/card

Where is Coinbase Card accepted?
Coinbase Card is accepted anywhere Visa® debit cards are accepted, at over 40M+ merchants worldwide. If you choose to spend crypto, Coinbase will automatically convert all cryptocurrency to US Dollars for use in purchases and ATM withdrawals.


and guess why they have to do that conversion? that's right because NO ONE TAKES BTC. most merchants only take fiat. we all know that...but anyhow it's off topic to the thread i know.

Crazy. I'm all for their decision of course. The reason why its crazy is this whole Runes thing was launched only a month or two ago and I guess its completely collapsed in popularity already. Looks like its finally the beginning of the end of the Ordinals Era in Bitcoin.

i didn't even realize binance had ordinals the support was not longlasting! i think they just started supporting them in summer 2023. wow they really got rid of them quick! flash in the pan. but i guess binance was never one of the big ordinals marketplaces. there's still a handful and i am guessing opensea still supports them but i haven't looked in a long time.  

so people still looking to unload their monkeys probably have options but this is "bearish" news.

[nutildah]

i didn't even realize binance had ordinals the support was not longlasting! i think they just started supporting them in summer 2023. wow they really got rid of them quick! flash in the pan. but i guess binance was never one of the big ordinals marketplaces. there's still a handful and i am guessing opensea still supports them but i haven't looked in a long time.  

so people still looking to unload their monkeys probably have options but this is "bearish" news.

In hindsight it was obvious -- anyone involved in the NFT craze of 2021-2022 should have seen it coming. Liquidity dries up after the next new & shiny thing is no longer so new & shiny. What's interesting is the price of a Bored Ape (BAYC) is now almost back down to its mint price, meaning just about everybody who ever bought one is currently sitting on a loss. Casey tried to make Runes the next shiny thing but the gleam has already fallen off the cube, if that's an expression. The power of his head honcho influencer, Leonidas, is weaning by the day as more and more people finally figure out for themselves that he is not much more than a grifting scammer.

Anyways, its all good for normal bitcoin users, and even not so no normal bitcoin users themselves, like me, who have used Counterparty to make non-standard transactions for nearly a decade now and can see myself doing the same 10 years from now.