(Ordinals) BRC-20 needs to be removed

[ABCbits]

I don't understand why you bring up debit card when he talked about payment processor where you can pay directly using Bitcoin and merchant can choose either keep the coin or convert the coin to fiat.

when you use the coinbase card, you're using fiat to buy something not crypto. they even say it right here on their website:
https://www.coinbase.com/card

Where is Coinbase Card accepted?
Coinbase Card is accepted anywhere Visa® debit cards are accepted, at over 40M+ merchants worldwide. If you choose to spend crypto, Coinbase will automatically convert all cryptocurrency to US Dollars for use in purchases and ATM withdrawals.


and guess why they have to do that conversion? that's right because NO ONE TAKES BTC. most merchants only take fiat. we all know that...but anyhow it's off topic to the thread i know.

By payment processor, i think he refer to Coinbase Commerce[1] instead. Their help page state customer make payment with Bitcoin or other coin[2], while their FAQ state merchant can choose either self-managed (only merchant have control over received coin) or coinbase-managed (custodial service)[3]. If merchant decide to choose coinbase-managed, they can use auto conversation (cryptocurrency to USD) feature [3].

[1] https://www.coinbase.com/commerce
[2] https://help.coinbase.com/en/how-to-make-a-payment
[3] https://www.coinbase.com/commerce/faq

[1714686382]

1714686382

[GaloisField]

Any thoughts about Runes protocol in this topic? rodarmor.com/blog/runes
Halving is arriving in ~2k blocks and fees can be way higher than any brc20 previous wave. Do we have the same angry people?

[larry_vw_1955]

In hindsight it was obvious -- anyone involved in the NFT craze of 2021-2022 should have seen it coming. Liquidity dries up after the next new & shiny thing is no longer so new & shiny. What's interesting is the price of a Bored Ape (BAYC) is now almost back down to its mint price, meaning just about everybody who ever bought one is currently sitting on a loss. Casey tried to make Runes the next shiny thing but the gleam has already fallen off the cube, if that's an expression. The power of his head honcho influencer, Leonidas, is weaning by the day as more and more people finally figure out for themselves that he is not much more than a grifting scammer.

apparently the bored apes have dried up on almost every nft marketplace except for blur. take this ape for example:

https://blur.io/asset/0xbc4ca0eda7647a8ab7c2061c2e118a18a936f13d/9923

they paid 62 eth for it a year ago. but eth has doubled in price since that time. so to break even, the owner would need to be selling their monkey for about half as many eth, 31 eth but what are they doing? trying to sell it for 12.8 eth so they can lock in a solid loss....these people are about as dumb as the apes they are buying it seems like  

yeah i don't think casey is looked upon too favorably by people here any longer. its really too bad he could have used his talents to make bitcoin better but he did the opposite kind of.

Anyways, its all good for normal bitcoin users, and even not so no normal bitcoin users themselves, like me, who have used Counterparty to make non-standard transactions for nearly a decade now and can see myself doing the same 10 years from now.

what type of non-standard transactions if you don't mind me asking. 10 years is a long time !

[pooya87]

Any thoughts about Runes protocol in this topic?

Apart from the obvious (you can not create tokens in Bitcoin protocol since it doesn't support it) this is just history repeating itself over and over, each time with a different face. It's a story as old as Bitcoin and the alternative market where altcoins are pumped and dumped.
- It started by creating useless coins to be pumped
- To maximize profit it continued by creating premined coins
- As people stopped buying into that scam, in order to hide the premine the scam turned into shadow-mined shitcoins
- As that failed too the Initial Coin Offering scam started where they premined the shitcoin and sold it before the chain even started or the shitcoin even got listed on exchanges
- With introduction of token creation platforms all of these scams got cheaper and a lot easier. Instead of creating a stand-alone project with blockchain, mining and everything all you had to do was create a token on these platforms (like on ethereum) which was cheap and easy, so the token hype began
- As that failed they started changing the name to revive it (ICO, IDO, IBO, IEO, ITO, STO, DeFi, NFT)
...and the scam continues

It's the same with the Ordinals Scam. They need to keep pulling "rabbits out the hat" if they want to keep people's attention and get them to buy their garbage and continue the attack on Bitcoin.

Halving is arriving in ~2k blocks and fees can be way higher than any brc20 previous wave. Do we have the same angry people?

A lot of people are angry because Bitcoin protocol is being abused as they found an exploit and the chain is under a spam attack not just because of the fees.

[nutildah]

Any thoughts about Runes protocol in this topic? rodarmor.com/blog/runes
Halving is arriving in ~2k blocks and fees can be way higher than any brc20 previous wave. Do we have the same angry people?

Not going to read it -- I already get the gist of it -- its Ordinals 2.0. Apparently he wasn't satisfied with the money he made already, so he launched something nearly completely the same under a different name.

Here's the fact: Runes was DOA (Dead On Arrival) so there's nothing to be angry about. Nobody cares about it because nearly everyone involved in Ordinals has already figured out that their main influencooor, Leonidas, is a cheeseball scammer.

Don't really feel bad for anybody who loses money to this garbage: you should have figured out Leonidas was a scammer by now. If you haven't, well you know what they say about a fool and his money...

[larry_vw_1955]

It's the same with the Ordinals Scam. They need to keep pulling "rabbits out the hat" if they want to keep people's attention and get them to buy their garbage and continue the attack on Bitcoin.

it just struck me that if something is not a built in part of bitcoin then it probably is not a good thing to invest into in the bitcoin ecosystem. because someone has to maintain it and keep the software alive and working and it won't be the bitcoin developers. and eventually the software might not even be available to download except through some archive.org site at which time people will have long forgotten or found any use for the data it encodes. since it's not built into bitcoin, that's the fate they all will suffer. ordinals is just the latest one. but all the ones before it ways of encoding images and data they probably suffered the same fate but even quicker.

so if casey wants ordinals to last hes going to have to convince the developers to put his ordinals code directly into bitcoin core. else, its doomed.

[DooMAD]

It's the same with the Ordinals Scam. They need to keep pulling "rabbits out the hat" if they want to keep people's attention and get them to buy their garbage and continue the attack on Bitcoin.

it just struck me that if something is not a built in part of bitcoin then it probably is not a good thing to invest into in the bitcoin ecosystem. because someone has to maintain it and keep the software alive and working and it won't be the bitcoin developers. and eventually the software might not even be available to download except through some archive.org site at which time people will have long forgotten or found any use for the data it encodes. since it's not built into bitcoin, that's the fate they all will suffer. ordinals is just the latest one. but all the ones before it ways of encoding images and data they probably suffered the same fate but even quicker.

so if casey wants ordinals to last hes going to have to convince the developers to put his ordinals code directly into bitcoin core. else, its doomed.

If something is genuinely useful, you'd be surprised at the lengths people will go to preserve obscure software.  I keep a few non-bitcoin-related programs archived that are hard to find elsewhere on the web.  

It's less about whether is something is made by a recognised group of developers and more about not investing in ordinals purely because they're a load of crap.  

Oh, and "Runes" will be more of the same.  A turd with some glitter sprinkled on, so any fools will believe it to be shiny.

[ABCbits]

Any thoughts about Runes protocol in this topic? rodarmor.com/blog/runes
Halving is arriving in ~2k blocks and fees can be way higher than any brc20 previous wave. Do we have the same angry people?

I shared my short thought on this post,

--snip--

Have anyone see it's technical detail[1]? While ordinals use witness data and UTXO, runes use UTXO and OP_RETURN which create somewhat less bloat. And while ordinals idea looks fresh at it's time, both ordinals and runes looks outdated as Bitcoin sidechain/L2 gaining popularity. So yeah, i hope Runes lose it's popularity quickly.

[1] https://rodarmor.com/blog/runes/

Besides, i expect there won't be many people would take risk following trend of Rune when Ordinal popularity doesn't last that long.

[nutildah]

Anyways, its all good for normal bitcoin users, and even not so no normal bitcoin users themselves, like me, who have used Counterparty to make non-standard transactions for nearly a decade now and can see myself doing the same 10 years from now.

what type of non-standard transactions if you don't mind me asking. 10 years is a long time !

Oh, I didn't see this question the first time around. In 10 days, it will mark the 10th anniversary of my account on the forum, and in about 10 weeks it will mark the first time I made a non-standard Bitcoin transaction, which was the creation of a Counterparty token (actually I had probably made trades on the Counterparty DEX even before that, but anyway).

Counterparty uses mainly OP_RETURN to store its data which is readable only by an external protocol (akin to Ordinals, except much more developed, secure, and blockchain space-friendly in every way imaginable). Some larger Counterparty transactions use multisig outputs, which are actually spendable.

[pooya87]

so if casey wants ordinals to last hes going to have to convince the developers to put his ordinals code directly into bitcoin core. else, its doomed.

That would require a hard-fork and fundamental changes in Bitcoin and its principles so that it is changed from a currency and a payment system into a token creation platform! Something that will never happen.
It is like going to a bank and trying to convince them that they should also serve food and become a restaurant on the side!

[Wind_FURY]

Anyhow, I thought you might be happy to know that binance has decided to no longer support Ordinals:

Binance to cease support for all Bitcoin NFTs
https://coinjournal.net/news/binance-to-ceases-support-for-all-bitcoin-nfts/


Binance announces end to Bitcoin NFTs support
A blog post published on Thursday noted that the trading of Bitcoin NFTs on the Binance NFT marketplace ends on April 18. The exchange has advised all users to to withdraw all their Bitcoin NFTs via the BTC network before May 18.

Crazy. I'm all for their decision of course. The reason why its crazy is this whole Runes thing was launched only a month or two ago and I guess its completely collapsed in popularity already. Looks like its finally the beginning of the end of the Ordinals Era in Bitcoin.

Binance probably believes that their resources should be invested somewhere else because OKX has a dominant position in Ordinals, and soon, the Runes market. I did some due diligence, and I believe that during its surge, the BRC-20 token ORDI had the most volume than all of the combined volume of Solana's NFT market. That was only from one asset.

Any thoughts about Runes protocol in this topic? rodarmor.com/blog/runes
Halving is arriving in ~2k blocks and fees can be way higher than any brc20 previous wave. Do we have the same angry people?

Not going to read it -- I already get the gist of it -- its Ordinals 2.0. Apparently he wasn't satisfied with the money he made already, so he launched something nearly completely the same under a different name.

Here's the fact: Runes was DOA (Dead On Arrival) so there's nothing to be angry about. Nobody cares about it because nearly everyone involved in Ordinals has already figured out that their main influencooor, Leonidas, is a cheeseball scammer.

Don't really feel bad for anybody who loses money to this garbage: you should have figured out Leonidas was a scammer by now. If you haven't, well you know what they say about a fool and his money...

Give it the benefit of the doubt and read it. Haha. Runes is not merely an upgrade to Ordinals, it's a new protocol for shitcoinery on top of Bitcoin.

"Balances are stored in UTXOs, which could be locked in HTCL", https://twitter.com/rodarmor/status/1774613900119699701

The Lightning Network may have found a new sort of "utility".

[Amphenomenon]

so if casey wants ordinals to last hes going to have to convince the developers to put his ordinals code directly into bitcoin core. else, its doomed.

That would require a hard-fork and fundamental changes in Bitcoin and its principles so that it is changed from a currency and a payment system into a token creation platform! Something that will never happen.
It is like going to a bank and trying to convince them that they should also serve food and become a restaurant on the side!

Oh but I guessed he already knew this after all but  still yet continued probably because he knows that he will milk out some ignorant folks who probably will invest in anything related to bitcoin because there are so many options like Ethereum, Solana and the likes that may allow this project or better creating its own blockchain for this.
anyway many have goals which are birthed from their own lusts or greed

Anyhow, I thought you might be happy to know that binance has decided to no longer support Ordinals:

Binance to cease support for all Bitcoin NFTs
https://coinjournal.net/news/binance-to-ceases-support-for-all-bitcoin-nfts/


Binance announces end to Bitcoin NFTs support
A blog post published on Thursday noted that the trading of Bitcoin NFTs on the Binance NFT marketplace ends on April 18. The exchange has advised all users to to withdraw all their Bitcoin NFTs via the BTC network before May 18.

Crazy. I'm all for their decision of course. The reason why its crazy is this whole Runes thing was launched only a month or two ago and I guess its completely collapsed in popularity already. Looks like its finally the beginning of the end of the Ordinals Era in Bitcoin.

Binance probably believes that their resources should be invested somewhere else because OKX has a dominant position in Ordinals, and soon, the Runes market. I did some due diligence, and I believe that during its surge, the BRC-20 token ORDI had the most volume than all of the combined volume of Solana's NFT market. That was only from one asset.

Like being said earlier people go  crazy for anything relating to Bitcoin but sadly they will come to know these BRC-20 is far from bitcoin itself

[Wind_FURY]

Anyhow, I thought you might be happy to know that binance has decided to no longer support Ordinals:

Binance to cease support for all Bitcoin NFTs
https://coinjournal.net/news/binance-to-ceases-support-for-all-bitcoin-nfts/


Binance announces end to Bitcoin NFTs support
A blog post published on Thursday noted that the trading of Bitcoin NFTs on the Binance NFT marketplace ends on April 18. The exchange has advised all users to to withdraw all their Bitcoin NFTs via the BTC network before May 18.

Crazy. I'm all for their decision of course. The reason why its crazy is this whole Runes thing was launched only a month or two ago and I guess its completely collapsed in popularity already. Looks like its finally the beginning of the end of the Ordinals Era in Bitcoin.

Binance probably believes that their resources should be invested somewhere else because OKX has a dominant position in Ordinals, and soon, the Runes market. I did some due diligence, and I believe that during its surge, the BRC-20 token ORDI had the most volume than all of the combined volume of Solana's NFT market. That was only from one asset.

Like being said earlier people go  crazy for anything relating to Bitcoin but sadly they will come to know these BRC-20 is far from bitcoin itself

But no one actually said BRC-20 = Bitcoin. BRC-20 is merely meme shitcoinery ser. BUT because "Runes" are stored in UTXOs, it will give these etched "Runes" a feature to make it liftable to the Lightning Network. It might have solved its own problem if the fees are high. Runes developers will build a solution to the high-fee-problem and utilize the Lightning Network. If Rune users want cheaper transaction fees for their Rune-shitcoins, then USE LIGHTNING!

[pooya87]

~ If Rune users want cheaper transaction fees for their Rune-shitcoins, then USE LIGHTNING!

Or better yet, if they actually want to develop anything and not just scam people they should create a separate and stand alone blockchain and use that to create whatever they want and stop exploiting the Bitcoin protocol

[vjudeu]

they should create a separate and stand alone blockchain and use that to create whatever they want

Exactly. Imagine how better the situation would be, if a new chain, made completely from scratch, would contain only Ordinals data, and just some SPV proofs, that a given data is connected with a given Bitcoin output. And then, that chain could actually execute all kinds of contracts, without asking Bitcoin developers about it, and could allow for example new token creation, without bloating the Bitcoin UTXO set.

Edit: Even better: instead of timestamping each and every Ordinal separately, one transaction per block could be used to timestamp the whole chain for Ordinals! And if you look at some proposed sidechain designs, then they are exactly like that: one commitment in the coinbase transaction per block is all that is needed (and I think it could be done even less frequently than once per block).

[Wind_FURY]

~ If Rune users want cheaper transaction fees for their Rune-shitcoins, then USE LIGHTNING!

Or better yet, if they actually want to develop anything and not just scam people they should create a separate and stand alone blockchain and use that to create whatever they want and stop exploiting the Bitcoin protocol

They truly could, but because they're currently doing it in Bitcoin, and it can't be stopped - unless there's community consensus to hard fork and upgrade the network - then it's better if they're given the ability to use off-chain transactions, no? It might give the Lightning Network a new sort of utility. Dick pic and fart sound collectors don't want to pay for high fees too.

they should create a separate and stand alone blockchain and use that to create whatever they want

Exactly.

How?

[larry_vw_1955]

If something is genuinely useful, you'd be surprised at the lengths people will go to preserve obscure software.

i agree! but there's only so much people with their obscure software on ordinals would be able to do if say the ordinals.com website stopped being maintained. and not many exchanges supported ordinals nfts anymore. but is that the type of position someone would want to be in who paid alot of money for a monkey to have to download the ordinals software from github and run a full bitcoin node just so they can see their ordinal? at that point, i think some people would give up.

I keep a few non-bitcoin-related programs archived that are hard to find elsewhere on the web.  

sure! burn them to a usb stick or save it on google drive for easy retrieval.

It's less about whether is something is made by a recognised group of developers and more about not investing in ordinals purely because they're a load of crap.  

Oh, and "Runes" will be more of the same.  A turd with some glitter sprinkled on, so any fools will believe it to be shiny.

This is Inscription 68649697
https://ordinals.com/inscription/bb4735a5dba97c95de4a50c25e28c1938651b3b76d0a910c869572212f035575i0

That's the latest ordinal as of this time. So there's more than 68 million ordinals now. And they're still minting stupid images like they were in the very beginning. nothing has really changed from that perspective. it would seem.

Oh, I didn't see this question the first time around. In 10 days, it will mark the 10th anniversary of my account on the forum
, and in about 10 weeks it will mark the first time I made a non-standard Bitcoin transaction, which was the creation of a Counterparty (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=395761.0) token (actually I had probably made trades on the Counterparty DEX even before that, but anyway).

Counterparty uses mainly OP_RETURN to store its data which is readable only by an external protocol (akin to Ordinals, except much more developed, secure, and blockchain space-friendly in every way imaginable). Some larger Counterparty transactions use multisig outputs, which are actually spendable.

10 years is a long time to have an account here. congrats. counterparty, unlike ordinals, looks like a very well designed thing based on that thread link you provided. casey could take notes. 

[pooya87]

They truly could, but because they're currently doing it in Bitcoin, and it can't be stopped - unless there's community consensus to hard fork and upgrade the network - then it's better if they're given the ability to use off-chain transactions, no? It might give the Lightning Network a new sort of utility. Dick pic and fart sound collectors don't want to pay for high fees too.

There are different ways of shutting this attack down, one of which is through the Bitcoin protocol. One way would be for those backing this attack to stop supporting it and the centralized market where the Ordinal scams are taking place to be shut down. After all those attacking bitcoin are accepting the high fees because they can have a chance of making some profit from those scams.
With the incentive gone, the attack would stop abruptly.

[vjudeu]

How?

...but just above, in the previous post, I described you exactly, how.

a new chain, made completely from scratch, would contain only Ordinals data, and just some SPV proofs, that a given data is connected with a given Bitcoin output

You know, what is "SPV proof", right? If you have for example a block header, then it takes only 80 bytes, no matter how big is the block behind it. And the same is true for Ordinals: they are hidden behind a single P2TR address, no matter how big they are, when you spend them, and reveal them on-chain. Which means, that you need to point at some 256-bit value on-chain, to prove, that it is connected with your data.

But: that's not all. By doing OP_RETURN, and adding some 32-byte data push, you would reveal, that some kind of commitment is there, and your transaction is not "only a payment". However, if you tweak R-value of your signature instead, then you don't need any additional bytes, for example inside OP_RETURN. Then, you just make a regular signature, using any address type, and just replace one signature with another, which can be used to also prove, that some data is attached into it.

And when it comes to technical details, then they were mentioned by Anthony Towns on the old mailing list: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2023-November/022176.html

Code:

Sign-to-contract looks like:

 * generate a secret random nonce r0
 * calculate the public version R0 = r0*G
 * calculate a derived nonce r = r0 + SHA256(R0, data), where "data"
   is what you want to commit to
 * generate your signature using public nonce R=r*G as usual

And then, if you just replace one signature with another, you can put the whole SPV proof on your own chain. Then, if one on-chain signature will commit to the whole chain of your choice, it will be sufficient to get it covered by Bitcoin's Proof of Work.

Also note, that if you need to put your commitment inside your output, instead of your input (for example if you want to put that in the coinbase transaction), then you can use exactly the same trick, because it works everywhere, where you can encounter any valid public key.

Edit: Also, if you want to understand it better, or preserve some kind of backward-compatibility, then in practice, you need only a small modification: just spend your Ordinals by key, not by TapScript. Or rather: spend them by key on Bitcoin, and spend them by TapScript on the separate chain, made just for Ordinals.

[Wind_FURY]

They truly could, but because they're currently doing it in Bitcoin, and it can't be stopped - unless there's community consensus to hard fork and upgrade the network - then it's better if they're given the ability to use off-chain transactions, no? It might give the Lightning Network a new sort of utility. Dick pic and fart sound collectors don't want to pay for high fees too.

There are different ways of shutting this attack down, one of which is through the Bitcoin protocol. One way would be for those backing this attack to stop supporting it and the centralized market where the Ordinal scams are taking place to be shut down. After all those attacking bitcoin are accepting the high fees because they can have a chance of making some profit from those scams.

With the incentive gone, the attack would stop abruptly.

I don't doubt those many ways of shutting this "attack" - according to your opinion - down. I'm asking actually HOW? Those are valid transactions that paid the fees/followed the consensus rules. It's a very dangerous path for the community if shutting it down gets consensus. Because that would start a cycle, in that, another group of people could also complain about some other use case and demand that it should be "shutdown".

How?

...but just above, in the previous post, I described you exactly, how.

a new chain, made completely from scratch, would contain only Ordinals data, and just some SPV proofs, that a given data is connected with a given Bitcoin output

You know, what is "SPV proof", right? If you have for example a block header, then it takes only 80 bytes, no matter how big is the block behind it. And the same is true for Ordinals: they are hidden behind a single P2TR address, no matter how big they are, when you spend them, and reveal them on-chain. Which means, that you need to point at some 256-bit value on-chain, to prove, that it is connected with your data.

But: that's not all. By doing OP_RETURN, and adding some 32-byte data push, you would reveal, that some kind of commitment is there, and your transaction is not "only a payment". However, if you tweak R-value of your signature instead, then you don't need any additional bytes, for example inside OP_RETURN. Then, you just make a regular signature, using any address type, and just replace one signature with another, which can be used to also prove, that some data is attached into it.

And when it comes to technical details, then they were mentioned by Anthony Towns on the old mailing list: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2023-November/022176.html

Code:

Sign-to-contract looks like:

 * generate a secret random nonce r0
 * calculate the public version R0 = r0*G
 * calculate a derived nonce r = r0 + SHA256(R0, data), where "data"
   is what you want to commit to
 * generate your signature using public nonce R=r*G as usual

And then, if you just replace one signature with another, you can put the whole SPV proof on your own chain. Then, if one on-chain signature will commit to the whole chain of your choice, it will be sufficient to get it covered by Bitcoin's Proof of Work.

Also note, that if you need to put your commitment inside your output, instead of your input (for example if you want to put that in the coinbase transaction), then you can use exactly the same trick, because it works everywhere, where you can encounter any valid public key.

Edit: Also, if you want to understand it better, or preserve some kind of backward-compatibility, then in practice, you need only a small modification: just spend your Ordinals by key, not by TapScript. Or rather: spend them by key on Bitcoin, and spend them by TapScript on the separate chain, made just for Ordinals.

That's the "what", not the "how". How do you convince NFT users to stop using on-chain Bitcoin?