Petition to remove Wasabi from recommendations of bitcoin.org

[o_e_l_e_o]

Doesn't Coinbase employ the services of a blockchain analytics company to filter which UTXOs are allowed to enter the exchange?

As do all centralized exchanges. However, these exchanges don't promote themselves as the ultimate privacy solution at the same time.

Wasabi's coordinator is centralized too, and like Coinbase, we can warn users about the pros and cons

Great. So let's warn them by putting a big "Caution" heading and explanation in the privacy section for the Wasabi listing.

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[pooya87]

It's like Brian Armstrong and Coinbase. Doesn't Coinbase employ the services of a blockchain analytics company to filter which UTXOs are allowed to enter the exchange? I don't see anyone persecuting Brian Armstrong, who, truly deserves it more for being one of the signatories who supported the New York Agreement.

If the response is "Coinbase a centralized service, it's in their right to block what goes in the exchange". Wasabi's coordinator is centralized too, and like Coinbase, we can warn users about the pros and cons, but we can't have an attitude like what the social justice warriors do today.

You are still not understanding the clear distinction between being an honest centralized service and a dishonest one. Someone who uses Coinbase knows well that they have zero control since they don't even have access to their own keys. Not to mention the KYC they enforce. They are not advertised as KYC-less custodial wallet, they are advertised and known as a centralized KYC-enforcing privacy invading necessary evil.
This is both honest and OK.

You can't say the same thing about Wasabi. This tool is being advertised as and is known as a tool to improve your privacy. Which is clearly not true since the  company is working with the blockchain analysis organizations that nullify any privacy users of this wallet had.
In other words Wasabi is a honeypot which is worse.

[BlackHatCoiner]

It's like Brian Armstrong and Coinbase.

Aside from Brian not portraying Coinbase as the ultimate privacy-oriented, non-KYC centralized exchange, how often do you observe the Bitcoin community expressing favor towards Coinbase? Because all I witness is criticism directed at them, branding them as one of the worst companies in their field. There have been sudden closures of customer accounts, allegations of insider trading, numerous technical problems, and an astonishingly anti-privacy and anti-Bitcoin stance.

[Wind_FURY]

I'm merely saying that we should avoid being too much of a Karen, because if we're successful in cancelling Wasabi and nopara37, who knows where it ends? Who does the community attack next for the trade-offs taken by some developers? It's a dangerous path, and I'm just asking for a little care and empathy, and a little understanding on why some developers make unpopular decisions.

It's not as if nopara73 is attacking the network like what the NYA signatories did, so let's breathe deeply and relax.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I'm merely saying that we should avoid being too much of a Karen, because if we're successful in cancelling Wasabi and nopara37, who knows where it ends?

It ends when there's no entity that violates basic principles.

Who does the community attack next for the trade-offs taken by some developers?

We're not attacking anyone. We're merely trying to defend. When someone provably malicious tries to manipulate newcomers, the least we can do is warn for their behavior.

It's not as if nopara73 is attacking the network like what the NYA signatories did, so let's breathe deeply and relax.

Manipulating newcomers and portraying yourself as the ultimate privacy solution, at the same time when you're cooperating with mass surveillance firm, lying and failing to provide those levels of privacy is an attack to part of the Bitcoin network.

[aysg76]

You are still not understanding the clear distinction between being an honest centralized service and a dishonest one. Someone who uses Coinbase knows well that they have zero control since they don't even have access to their own keys. Not to mention the KYC they enforce. They are not advertised as KYC-less custodial wallet, they are advertised and known as a centralized KYC-enforcing privacy invading necessary evil.
This is both honest and OK.

They are clear on that agenda like they have specified in their SEC filing also that if any case they go bankrupt the users funds will be used to pay off any liabilities although not too much advertising about it but still better then claiming like your funds are yours.They are also among those platforms who doesn't care about your privacy putting restrictions on withdrawal but when we talk about Wasabi then it seems like decent options who are not cheating with the users trying to scam them.

[20kevin20]

I'm merely saying that we should avoid being too much of a Karen, because if we're successful in cancelling Wasabi and nopara37, who knows where it ends? Who does the community attack next for the trade-offs taken by some developers? It's a dangerous path, and I'm just asking for a little care and empathy, and a little understanding on why some developers make unpopular decisions.

Then they should shut up and stop mocking their previous customers and attacking them. They're taking the wrong road, not us. I don't think we're "Karens". They received a ton of support and love from us back when they were telling the truth (hopefully). I used to strongly suggest and support their Docs, which at the time were extremely useful to anyone who wanted to know more about Bitcoin privacy, with or without being interested in Wasabi's product.

But it's a bad ending anyway. We shut up and Wasabi and everyone else gets the "empathy" and by the end of the day everyone's gonna just accept this as Bitcoin's fate, every company will have no more respect for their clients' privacy, we introduce taint as if it ever was a thing, governments are happy, Wasabi's devs are happy with their fulfilled pockets and we, the customers, are the ones to suffer. But this is a domino in the making. Look at CEX's! Nobody said a thing about KYC and now how many CEX's still allow you to trade without KYC? Pretty much none! This is a war that began more than 6 years ago, I will never forget the day Bittrex suddenly changed their policy to being able to withdraw only if KYC is fulfilled. Robbers! Now they're under bankruptcy and I received an e-mail that I can withdraw my coins. Jokes on you, they're still impossible to withdraw unless.. you guessed it, unless I send my KYC info. Look at ATMs in the US! How many of them have no KYC for purchases and sells? That's arrived in the EU as well now, it's getting less and less free and they're taking our privacy away entirely. Look at Ledger! They're turning their "your seed never leaves the hardware" into a "pay to get the seed to a safe place"! Empathy and care for what? I'm sick of this all!! I challenge you: take a break of at least half an year from crypto and come back. You'll be surprised to see how quickly privacy is being demolished. I'm sick of liars, I'm sick of pretending everything's fine, because it's not! I'm literally looking at the people I used to admire with disgust and feeling betrayed. They've done what I thought they'll always fight against. Work with Coinfirm, deceive new customers into believing you're the ultimate solution to privacy and argue with those blaming you for what you're doing. I'm sick of it!! Does it look like showing empathy really works as a solution?

[yhiaali3]

I've been hearing a lot of complaints about Wasabi lately, I've read in more than one place about some negative things about Wasabi wallet that made me wonder what's going on? I remember Wasabi being among the good privacy wallets, but maybe they seem to be hypocritical to get government approval.

Sending an email to bitcoin.org explaining your dissatisfaction with Wasabi might help a bit, but it's better to spread awareness in the Bitcoin community about the downsides of a wallet and ultimately everyone gets to decide which wallet is right for keeping their coins and privacy.

[Yamane_Keto]

I've been hearing a lot of complaints about Wasabi lately, I've read in more than one place about some negative things about Wasabi wallet that made me wonder what's going on? I remember Wasabi being among the good privacy wallets, but maybe they seem to be hypocritical to get government approval.

In fact, Wasabi is a software that works as a wallet and allows direct interaction with a mixing protocol, meaning that they are not a mixing protocol or a mixer. If any of the existing mixers were combined with any wallet, we would get similar results, exactly as it happened with the Samurai wallet.

Most mixers will not do this because they are forced to release open source software and a wallet that many people trust, which is a headache compared to creating online website.

A middle option is to make Coinjoin Electrum plugin So far, I wonder why no mixer has worked in such implementation even CM was a dead one.

[20kevin20]

I've been hearing a lot of complaints about Wasabi lately, I've read in more than one place about some negative things about Wasabi wallet that made me wonder what's going on?

Long story short: Wasabi likely got warned by governments and 3-letter agencies so they had to either join the opposition or stop their Wasabi business entirely. They chose the former, went public about it and they’re now trying to convince us that their partnership with blockchain analysis corps is the ultimate solution to Bitcoin’s privacy. They basically sold themselves and they’re trying to manipulate everyone else into thinking it’s the best thing that’s ever happened.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Most mixers will not do this because they are forced to release open source software and a wallet that many people trust, which is a headache compared to creating online website.

Coinjoining with whirlpool is the next option you're looking for.

They basically sold themselves and they’re trying to manipulate everyone else into thinking it’s the best thing that’s ever happened.

You forgot the part where they're lying about it. They don't even believe how dumb that is, so it's quite difficult to support that "update" and be honest simultaneously. Have a look at zkSNACKs' official website: https://zksnacks.com/. "Privacy for everyone in the digital age". Apparently, not for those you dislike. 

[Medusah]

Github issue created: https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/Bitcoin.org/issues/4097.  Voting with thumbs up from your github account would help.

[Pmalek]

Sorry, I don't think it's going to happen. I have had my share of problems with their representative Kruw in the Wasabi thread like some other members here, and have a very bad opinion of him. Still, I don't see Wasabi as a malicious entity that would require it be removed from bitcoin.org. Proper warnings about their activities and partnership with blockchain analysis should be posted though, and I would support that any day of the week. Any time they call themselves a privacy tool should be corrected that they aren't, etc. 

[Wind_FURY]

Sorry, I don't think it's going to happen. I have had my share of problems with their representative Kruw in the Wasabi thread like some other members here, and have a very bad opinion of him. Still, I don't see Wasabi as a malicious entity that would require it be removed from bitcoin.org. Proper warnings about their activities and partnership with blockchain analysis should be posted though, and I would support that any day of the week. Any time they call themselves a privacy tool should be corrected that they aren't, etc.
  

THAT'S IT! That's why I believe we're becoming Crypto-Karens because of our insistence of this issue. Cobra won't remove WasabiWallet unless they're confirmed to be nefarious people who are there to co-opt Bitcoin. They're actually not. Wasabi developers merely accepted the trade-off and hired the services of some Blockchain Intelligence Agency, the B.I.A. to protect zkSNACKS and themselves from the authorities.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Cobra won't remove WasabiWallet unless they're confirmed to be nefarious people who are there to co-opt Bitcoin. They're actually not.

They are directly funding blockchain analysis companies, which are the exact same companies providing flawed evidence to the government to prosecute privacy devs for writing code. They are enforcing government sanctioned blacklists and censoring their users. They are enforcing the concept that bitcoin is not fungible. In what way is any of that not nefarious?

[Pmalek]

They are directly funding blockchain analysis companies, which are the exact same companies providing flawed evidence to the government to prosecute privacy devs for writing code. They are enforcing government sanctioned blacklists and censoring their users. They are enforcing the concept that bitcoin is not fungible. In what way is any of that not nefarious?

I have no objections to what you are saying and agree with every word. However, those are mainly privacy-related problems. Being spied on by blockchain analysis and having your UTXOs checked for naughtiness. You can't force people to be privacy-conscious or force them to act according to what you believe is the proper way in terms of privacy. Not you personally, I am just saying.

Since this is supposed to be a privacy-software, but isn't, I'd like to see the right warnings and banners informing unsuspecting users of what they are doing behind the stage. If the wallet had poor security, which results in coins miraculously disappearing and getting stuck and becoming unobtainable, I would vote to get rid of it from the recommendations.

Having said all this, I am really curious of what actions (if any) Cobra will take. 

[Kruw]

Since this is supposed to be a privacy-software, but isn't.

Your privacy is completely protected when using Wasabi.  By default, it uses Tor to mask your IP address for all network connections and compact block filters to mask your xpub address when discovering the balance in your wallet's addresses.

[Wind_FURY]

Cobra won't remove WasabiWallet unless they're confirmed to be nefarious people who are there to co-opt Bitcoin. They're actually not.

They are directly funding blockchain analysis companies, which are the exact same companies providing flawed evidence to the government to prosecute privacy devs for writing code. They are enforcing government sanctioned blacklists and censoring their users. They are enforcing the concept that bitcoin is not fungible. In what way is any of that not nefarious?

What I define as nefarious in this context are anti-Bitcoin entites either open or in secret which their goal is to co-opt Bitcoin and compromise it. It's not what I see in WasabiWallet. They are simply too small because their market demograpic is too small. We can always tell our fellow plebs to avoid using their centralized coordinator.

Plus what I see in Wasabi is a group of developers who believe that there's more incentives for them financially and for their security if they filter out "questionable" UTXOs.

"Enforcing government sanctioned blacklists", no they can't and "censoring their users", no they're not. They're merely filtering UTXOs that enter THEIR centralized service.

I'm not saying that the community shouldn't inform the public, in fact I believe we should, but avoid drama. It was good during the first few moments, but currently it's making us look like a group of Karens.

[Pmalek]

Your privacy is completely protected when using Wasabi.  By default, it uses Tor to mask your IP address for all network connections and compact block filters to mask your xpub address when discovering the balance in your wallet's addresses.

Just stop it with your propaganda and sweeping the issue under the carpet. You know what I am talking about. Multiple people have said it in many different ways in the Wasabi thread. Do we really have to talk about it here as well? Fine.

Many users, me included, don't consider Wasabi a privacy tool anymore because your default and most popular Wasabi coordinator allows a malicious entity (blockchain analysis company) to tag UTXOs and put them in different categories based on their level of naughty. It matters not one bit whether you do it personally, or you listen to what your blockchain analysis buddies say. The fact remains that if my coins are considered dirty enough, I am not going to get any privacy from you. And who knows what your malicious blockchain partners will do with that information. I doubt they will just put it on file and do nothing when it can be sold or shared with government agencies for profit or favors.

It's time you stopped playing naive and trying to divert the attention from that. I will not grow tired mentioning it unless you stop trying to hide it by highlighting other features of your software. And me not supporting Wasabi to be removed from bitcoin.org does not affect my opinion about what you deem to be the ultimate bitcoin privacy software.       

[Kruw]

Many users, me included, don't consider Wasabi a privacy tool anymore because your default and most popular Wasabi coordinator allows a malicious entity (blockchain analysis company) to tag UTXOs and put them in different categories based on their level of naughty.

Wasabi does not stop being privacy software just because a business does not want to accept your money.  You can use any coordinator with Wasabi, including your own.  The signers of this petition can simply coordinate coinjoins among themselves since they are all united in their decision not to use the default coordinator, and no one could stop you:

Peter Todd crushing the critics:  "I can do my own Wasabi coinjoin coordinator... If someone's complaining about this, go start your own damn coordinator."

https://youtu.be/oPNFdhZUGmk?t=297