Bitcointalk own Casino complaint panel

[Wapfika]

I recently read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5458053.0 about Rollbit disabling the user account without further explanation. By the flow of this case, It's either the user will use 3rd party service to file complaint or the representative of the casino will directly answer all the complain on scam accusation thread. The problem arise when both party claimin they are right while they can't provide documents in public, Most of the time we recommend to move the case on Askgambler to have a mediator for the case.

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

[Cantsay]

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

I doubt anything like that would get implemented as bitcointalk.org does not moderate scam in the first place...

Aside from the fact that scams are not moderated here I'm the forum creating a group of people like that could result to something else, for example some could think take them to be a gang while others will always suspect them to be bias whenever they support themselves in any arguments, just my saying though.
Just one last question: the cases moved to Askgambler are they always resolved? Or have they been my partiality there? If not then they should continue their mediator activities. Just my 2 cents.

[retreat]

This forum already has its own section to be able to accommodate cases like that and I think the members there are quite helpful in giving their opinions and helping OP with the problems he is experiencing. So in my opinion there is no need for Bitcointalk to create a special panel related to online casino problems, because this forum is not intended for that, this is a forum that accommodates crypto users to be able to discuss, not to solve problems related to casinos, for problems like that should be resolved privately or discussed with other members.

[Oshosondy]

I doubt anything like that would get implemented as bitcointalk.org does not moderate scam in the first place...

I think that is why this is not created on meta board. In a way that we can do it by ourselves.

What I know is that valid scam accusations are not what is taken lightly on this forum, if there is proof, the forum DT members use to help and tag the gambling site account on this forum until the issue is reversed.

This is not just necessary.

There are many solved cases of valid scam accusation in the past.

[cabron]

I doubt anything like that would get implemented as bitcointalk.org does not moderate scam in the first place...

Aside from the fact that scams are not moderated here I'm the forum creating a group of people like that could result to something else, for example some could think take them to be a gang while others will always suspect them to be bias whenever they support themselves in any arguments, just my saying though.
Just one last question: the cases moved to Askgambler are they always resolved? Or have they been my partiality there? If not then they should continue their mediator activities. Just my 2 cents.

Second to that. Theymos wouldn't have to bother himself with those complaints not related to the forum. The biases will bring more chaos as users will have to make known private and sensitive information to the panel. The problem this complaint panel brings outweighs the benefit in the end. There is Askgambler to go for it, Askgambler has handled cases of whether it is resolved or not. It's on their hands.

[dothebeats]

The problem is, there is already a dedicated sub for that (sort of, the Scam Accusations board) although it still remains to be in the discretion of both parties whether or not they will be using the said space to voice out their concerns or whatever it is that they have differences with, especially on the side of the casino which can opt to resolve this privately however the forum members here will likely view that as something scammy or shady. Casinos won't really feel the need to respond to those accusations anyway especially if the amount is something trivial to them, and can be completed once the user of their platform becomes compliant to whatever they're asking.

I don't think it's also necessary to have a panel for this kind of thing. The boards are doing what they need to do just fine IMO, and it's up to both the parties on how they would resolve those cases using the board already present in this forum.

[MAAManda]

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

It's a good idea if carried out according to certain standards, only using trusted people in the forum will certainly not be enough, especially if the mediator is unable to understand the flow of the problem. Internal data is also needed to carry out an assessment, is the crypto casino willing to provide it considering that data is a sensitive matter?

I have seen the topic of accusations made by @MegaAkker, and it seems that it is just a misunderstanding, in the near future maybe we'll see a representation from Rollbit who will answer the accusations made by him.

[Adbitco]

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

We know most of the managers has close contact with the project owners but creating group were some cases would be handle are periodically being off from the forum, so the best option is to just have them discussed over here openly possible those who has direct contact may easily look into and help resolved what ever the case may be. The scam accusations sections is enough to handle cases and if there are no clear evidence then such casino site are being blacklisted by given them tag and warned users to desist from using such casino or gambling site.

[ryzaadit]

If they are not responding in the scam-assumption thread? are they gonna to respond for the pannel you are asking ? I guess not. It's always depends on the service, If they not make any comment no matter what platform you're using (Pannel/Thread/Forum/etc) then is gonna to be useless. But at least, can be a warning for other people about the service (they always responding only on their service, 90% on there).

[Wiwo]

Having such a team in the forum will not amount to much more than the DT members are already doing and as a matter of fact and evidence,  we have hard issues whose evidence has been proven getting solved with the help of forum members intervening in the issues.

The forum administrator will not consider personal involvement in matters such as this so the responsibility is now left to members to either guide themselves against such cases or try as much as possible to have evidence for all their transactions.

[ImThour]

I mean the Bitcointalk.org forum provide a transparent way for a user to raise a complaint on any casino/company. We don't need a group of people who will have the rights to choose fate of someone either a person or a company. If a user is providing all the documents where it proves that the casino or the company is in-fact scamming, the community will surely take action against them.

A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

They already got scammed, why will they pay extra money to make a complaint on a forum which is free to use?

[goldkingcoiner]

I recently read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5458053.0 about Rollbit disabling the user account without further explanation. By the flow of this case, It's either the user will use 3rd party service to file complaint or the representative of the casino will directly answer all the complain on scam accusation thread. The problem arise when both party claimin they are right while they can't provide documents in public, Most of the time we recommend to move the case on Askgambler to have a mediator for the case.

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

99% of all gambling complaints are just users whining about getting caught gambling out of an illegal country or breaking the TOS and not getting their account back. I would wager that only very rarely does anyone here have an actual complaint which has reason and legitimacy. But even during those rare times, those should not be complaints but rather scam accusations. And we have a forum for scam accusations. So everything is quite adequate.

This is not a forum of lawyers who can give actual legal advice on who is right or wrong and what to do. And I think solving cases in the gambling world, which is filled with people in regret and shame and blind hate, will not be of any use. In fact it seems like a waste of time and resources.

[Wapfika]

I read mix opinion about my suggestion but most of this suggestion is prolly based on the title itself without understanding the whole point of this suggestion.

• I’m not asking for an official complaint panel but rather just a group of reputable people that can act as mediators on case like this. Escrow service is available in the forum so how the hell this service is not feasible
• Next, I clearly stated that this is only for the case which we can be considered as stalemate like the casino can’t provide sensitive information in the public to proved their decision. This is the typical case being move on askgambler and not the shitty acam accusation.
• I’m not telling to implement this in the forum but just a suggestion to a group of reputable user here that is capable. This is the reason why I didn’t put this on meta.

My mistake here is not making this a self moderated thread to have a proper discussion.

Here's a post by @SirJohnVonSlotty representative of Coinslotty stating that he is willing to show proof to one of reputable user here. This is just an example on how this kind of service work.

If it would be a scam accusation then I wouldn't mind onboarding someone from the admins or LoyceV to our platform and showing the proof to them individually, but since it's a win, then I'll just thank you for the review and hope you'll be smart with the funds

[panjul07]

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

We do not need it IMO, we have scam accusation board already and it is the best board for such complain.
In that board, most of the trusted users who cares about such case will come to the thread and express what they think about the case.
Of course they will not give responses to all cases, they will only respond to serious cases with good evidences.
With the responses from the trusted users, I do believe it will notify the casino and hopefully the casino will give the best solution.

[SirJohnVonSlotty]

We do not need it IMO, we have scam accusation board already and it is the best board for such complain.

But it's not. I was quite active there, and it's not. It's one sided, the crew mostly supports the forum user, and #allcasinosarescam is written all over it. Here and there you would find someone who would think of the operator, but all in all it's not the best board for resolving complains.

I read mix opinion about my suggestion but most of this suggestion is prolly based on the title itself without understanding the whole point of this suggestion.

It's in the gambling sub so you'll have tons of people coming to fulfill their comment quotas for the day

Regarding your idea, I agree that we would need a better process, but to have a successful scam accusation case being solved, the setup would need the following:

#1. A Casino Representative. If there's no representative on the forum, you will not get them to reply to anyone. I'm telling this because operators, in general, hate forums since in 90% of them users discuss bonus abusing mechanics. So if you don't have a forum representative, you'll not reach the casino department, especially if they know that they are right. They will not even enter the conversation.

#2. A Casino Affiliate. Someone who is in touch with the casino and actively promotes their offers on their site and on their forum, just as another touching point between the forum and the casino. 

#3. Someone who understands how players cheat. This is crucial, because if no one knows how bonus abusers breath, everyone will hold the forum users side, not thinking of the operator at all.

#4.Someone who understands how operators cheat. Similar to above, you would need someone to point out flaws and methods scam casinos use.

Only then could you effectively communicate and solve this case, but the issue that arises after that is:

a.) Forum User Profiles are dispensable. If a user that abused the casino comes with a scam accusation, after losing that battle, that user is not punished in any significant way. You will not see someone with an established profile to come and claim it, it's mostly smaller to medium accounts.
b.) Casinos don't care if they are listed as scam on 1 forum. Now the other side of the coin, what if the user is right and the casino is wrong? Well, in general, nothing will happen, people will still go to that casino and gamble there if the marketing is strong enough. One single scam accusation, or even 5 of them on 1 forum will not make a dent.


 So, in general, I do agree with you, we would need a better scam accusation process, but I have no idea how to make it work.

[Silberman]

I recently read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5458053.0 about Rollbit disabling the user account without further explanation. By the flow of this case, It's either the user will use 3rd party service to file complaint or the representative of the casino will directly answer all the complain on scam accusation thread. The problem arise when both party claimin they are right while they can't provide documents in public, Most of the time we recommend to move the case on Askgambler to have a mediator for the case.

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

I think this is too much, the forum has a policy of not moderating scams on the first place, the ones that try to implement some kind of order are its members by the use of the trust and the flag system, anything more than that would be improper, if an user wants to bring their case on this forum they are free to do so, and if they want to use another platform they are free to do so as well, personally I see the current system as good enough and it does not need any change or improvement.

[Agbe]

I think such caliber of people are already in the forum to give justice in any case that comes to the Scam Accusations Board. If the Op of the accusation thread provides all the evidences that needed in the case, I believe people will look into the case give their judgement without bias. Forum is a place where people express their thoughts on issues freely. So if you select few to judge cases, other users view points might be neglected. So let anyone who has something to contribute participate.

[Sandra_hakeem]

• I’m not asking for an official complaint panel but rather just a group of reputable people that can act as mediators on case like this. Escrow service is available in the forum so how the hell this service is not feasible

anyone would totally understand what you meant right from the time but, the sad truth is that nobody wants to pick up any form of responsibility for themselves. I would also add that anyone that knows much about almost every casino's Ts/C's and visits the ANN thread frequently should be given a listening ear.

Sandra 🧑‍🦰

[milewilda]

I recently read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5458053.0 about Rollbit disabling the user account without further explanation. By the flow of this case, It's either the user will use 3rd party service to file complaint or the representative of the casino will directly answer all the complain on scam accusation thread. The problem arise when both party claimin they are right while they can't provide documents in public, Most of the time we recommend to move the case on Askgambler to have a mediator for the case.

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

I think this is too much, the forum has a policy of not moderating scams on the first place, the ones that try to implement some kind of order are its members by the use of the trust and the flag system, anything more than that would be improper, if an user wants to bring their case on this forum they are free to do so, and if they want to use another platform they are free to do so as well, personally I see the current system as good enough and it does not need any change or improvement.

I do agree on this one on which it doesnt really need up any changes and its true that anyone who do faces up some problems could anytime do make out some post in regarding about their issue and the community would
really be just giving out their inputs and impressions towards the situation. Even lets say that having that complaint panel but still it wont really be that sufficient for it to be taken on legal means or simply we could really be just be ending up on neither giving their forum account some negative trust but this wont really be solving a thing so its just pretty useless. If the said complainant would really be likely on doing that legal action then
its impossible that he wont really be able to know on where he should go. Its true that this forum doesnt moderate scam therefore it is really just that understandable that it wont really be
making up some changes just for these situations.

[decodx]

I think it could actually be interesting, and possibly useful for the gambling community on the forum. Creating a group of trusted users who can act as mediators to look into cases involving valid evidence could help address disputes more efficiently and fairly. Having respectable members who are capable of handling such situations can provide a valuable resource for resolving conflicts and maintaining a sense of trust within the community. I have already thought of several highly respectable members who would fit the criteria. And I'm sure most here would agree that they would be objective and unbiased in their judgment because they've already proven that countless times before.

[yahoo62278]

There are a few non biased people I've seen comment in the scam accusation section, but what happens if we have a panel of judges on here? Possible corruption could happen and the "judges" might be able to be bought either by the casino or by the accuser. If we could keep the corruption out of it then it might be a good idea, but I don't think it's going to happen.

[Casdinyard]

I recently read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5458053.0 about Rollbit disabling the user account without further explanation. By the flow of this case, It's either the user will use 3rd party service to file complaint or the representative of the casino will directly answer all the complain on scam accusation thread. The problem arise when both party claimin they are right while they can't provide documents in public, Most of the time we recommend to move the case on Askgambler to have a mediator for the case.

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

There wouldn't be such a thing here, opinions are great and all that, but if they were to be used to judge cases like this that could cost one side lots of money in the process, at least let the judgment come from a source that is verifiable and one that mastered the art of providing sound judgment. Plus if we were to appoint certain accounts as "annointed users" or "chosen juries" that would just inflate the need for account buying here, which is already something that the whole team is fighting against since it insinuates dishonesty within the forum.

Let it just be like this, if shit hits the fan and they need to take this into court then might as well. I don't see why we should have a say in this cause it's not our money anyway, and we're already empowered to provide opinion to begin with.

[goaldigger]

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

This can help you push your issue with the site but of course if they are not here in the forum this can’t guarantee that it can help you, beside this might require a lot of time to manage and some are too busy to handle this. We already have the scam section where we can easily talk about the scam site, many are able to help the user to get the attention of the site but some failed to do so since the site is a real scam.

[dunfida]

There are a few non biased people I've seen comment in the scam accusation section, but what happens if we have a panel of judges on here? Possible corruption could happen and the "judges" might be able to be bought either by the casino or by the accuser. If we could keep the corruption out of it then it might be a good idea, but I don't think it's going to happen.

One of the main issues that would really be possibly to happen on which people could really be bought whether they would really be going against or would really be trying out to defend and there's no way that

we could really be able to know on whose been telling the truth and whose not which this is really that something would really be that hard to point out and if we do really just simply making out some basis.
Therefore, it wont really be that a sure thing that having some complaint panel would really be definitely be that effective or something that would really be able to resolved such issue.
This is a problem in between user and the platform on which making up some solutions and negotiations would really be just in between this two.
Taking up this to another level in terms of legal aspects then it would really be a different story and people on this community wouldnt be able to do something like this.
We could only post opinions but not able to give out those kind of conclusions on whose right and wrong.

[Johnyz]

If there's someone here that is willing to help the user, then why not? This might help to solve the problem easily.
The complaints can only raise here in the forum but still the site is the one to decide, most of the complaints about the site that are here in the forum solved right away since there's a direct contact but if the site is not here, then it can be a big challenge to us.

[Slow death]

Just one last question: the cases moved to Askgambler are they always resolved? Or have they been my partiality there? If not then they should continue their mediator activities. Just my 2 cents.

From what I could observe in recent years, askgamble was able to put pressure on the casino when they were wrong to correct their mistakes, this pressure was in the sense of putting the casino on the black list if they did not solve the customer's problems, and as in the past the casinos depended a lot on askgambler and casino.guro to have many customers so only casinos were obliged to solve customer problems, but unfortunately today askgambler and casino.guro no longer have much influence as in the past, nowadays casinos they pay influencers, the owners of large youtube and twitch channels and with that casinos get many customers

so the casinos no longer need to depend too much on forums, monitor sites like casino.guro or askgambler, with that, there is no longer any way to pressure a casino to solve a customer's problem, for a casino that has many customers, even a customer has problems and keeps accusing them of scam, this does not affect the casino at all, unfortunately. that's why I think this OP idea would only work for new casinos here on the forum that still don't have much financial resources to pay the owners of big youtube and twitch channels

[TimeTeller]

If there's someone here that is willing to help the user, then why not? This might help to solve the problem easily.
The complaints can only raise here in the forum but still the site is the one to decide, most of the complaints about the site that are here in the forum solved right away since there's a direct contact but if the site is not here, then it can be a big challenge to us.

The scam accusations board for me is already more than enough to assist the person who is in trouble.
Users here are also fast in advising the complainant on what to do next.
But the complainant should be honest and transparent with his case to know the root cause of his problem.
Also, it can easily be resolved if the casino in question has their own thread and rep in this forum.
Otherwise, it is hard to reach out casino owners outside the forum, which you may need other third party services.

[coin-investor]

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

It may sound like a good idea but we all know its ok to have an alt account here in Bitcointalk, but what if one member of the panel's alt account is in that casino signature's campaign it will have a biased decision and what if some members of the panel is a VIP or active players of that casino.

It's better to have a platform do it because they do not have a stake in a casino and they already have a history of being a mediator, and we have the scam section where all members are free to give their views and DT can tag scammers.

[Wiwo]

There are a few non biased people I've seen comment in the scam accusation section, but what happens if we have a panel of judges on here? Possible corruption could happen and the "judges" might be able to be bought either by the casino or by the accuser. If we could keep the corruption out of it then it might be a good idea, but I don't think it's going to happen.

That wont happen anytime soon unless some form of development and changes happens in the near feature and fhe forum chooses to devote a portion to that and also allocating a few trusted forum members with experience such as yourself  yahoo62278 to serve such a purpose.

And talking about corruption and possible bought over of the board members are the major set back that could be eliminated if the power doesn't reside with a single or few individuals but is left to be decentralized that way it will become hard to manipulate the whole board members at the same time.

I think this will eliminate the tendency of corruption in that regard.

[macson]

I recently read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5458053.0 about Rollbit disabling the user account without further explanation. By the flow of this case, It's either the user will use 3rd party service to file complaint or the representative of the casino will directly answer all the complain on scam accusation thread. The problem arise when both party claimin they are right while they can't provide documents in public, Most of the time we recommend to move the case on Askgambler to have a mediator for the case.

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

i really support this to be realized so that neither the users nor the owners of gambling sites feel disadvantaged, but what i believe is that when this is realized, there will be many complaints that will be created and i'm sure trusted members or even forum moderators it will not be able to handle all cases.

i see just being the place as it is now, it's a good thing for the forum to exist ^{(without being a moderator in any case)}, but the support of every trusted member is important enough to analyze any reports of possible cheating.

[Yatsan]

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

Problem is, not all gambling casino owner would be okay communicating with users in this forum even if it's their casino's reputaation is on the line. Also, let's jist say campaign managers in this forum are the ones to be representative. We are still in online platform and take note that we don't know each ither personally here, nothing would change if they would be avoidant of communication. Even if they would have a bad image in this forum, there would be still gamblers to play in their platform especially those who are not in this forum, so they'd more likely not mind things still.

We also cannot tag a casino as fraudalent or scam as long as it is running. We would know that a platform is a fraud only once they run with their consumer's money and not with few instances alone.

[Mr.suevie]

I doubt anything like that would get implemented as bitcointalk.org does not moderate scam in the first place...

Aside from the fact that scams are not moderated here I'm the forum creating a group of people like that could result to something else, for example some could think take them to be a gang while others will always suspect them to be bias whenever they support themselves in any arguments, just my saying though.
Just one last question: the cases moved to Askgambler are they always resolved? Or have they been my partiality there? If not then they should continue their mediator activities. Just my 2 cents.

Second to that. Theymos wouldn't have to bother himself with those complaints not related to the forum. The biases will bring more chaos as users will have to make known private and sensitive information to the panel. The problem this complaint panel brings outweighs the benefit in the end. There is Askgambler to go for it, Askgambler has handled cases of whether it is resolved or not. It's on their hands.

Enough problem indeed, I think thats exactly what will happen because the forum itself isn't about gambling companies, its basically about bitcoin and crypto discussion and it only advertises these company because they someway help in the rapid growth and uaage of bitcoin since they are crypto friendly and and like you said theymos would accommodate such idea to be added to the forum so if you ask me askgambler is just fine everything that needs to be discuss and settle can be carried out there.

[jrrsparkles]

I recently read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5458053.0 about Rollbit disabling the user account without further explanation. By the flow of this case, It's either the user will use 3rd party service to file complaint or the representative of the casino will directly answer all the complain on scam accusation thread. The problem arise when both party claimin they are right while they can't provide documents in public, Most of the time we recommend to move the case on Askgambler to have a mediator for the case.

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

"Scams are not moderated in bitcointalk", so I think this serves the answer required for the thread. But I do appreciate if there is any cause when there is a dispute arises between cryptocurrency trading platform and its user the word from community can expose what is the actual truth.

We already have the DT community which is the one similar to what you are proposing but only users with very trustworthy like only DT1 members may act as Jury.

BTW it will be better if you move this to Meta since we are talking about something related to bitcointalk not just gambling.

[Yaunfitda]

I recently read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5458053.0 about Rollbit disabling the user account without further explanation. By the flow of this case, It's either the user will use 3rd party service to file complaint or the representative of the casino will directly answer all the complain on scam accusation thread. The problem arise when both party claimin they are right while they can't provide documents in public, Most of the time we recommend to move the case on Askgambler to have a mediator for the case.

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

It might have good intentions, like any other gambling mediation, but it the end it's not going to work.

1. Casino has the final decision and I doubt that they will chance their stance if they have the evidence at end
2. The casino complaint panel will be filled obviously, complains from newbies who suddenly appear in this community
3. You just don't know what the intentions of some individuals to file complain, this is a cutthroat business and anyone can do anything to destroy their competition including filing complaints that has no solid evidence

And there could be more reasons to. And I also don't think that those trusted user groups like DT1 will meddle in such cases. There are also politics in this community already. We don't need another one.

[danherbias07]

I think you are aiming for a good approach since many gamblers are actually having problems with gambling sites that cannot answer their queries.
The only problem though is who will be the selected users that will be the mediator of this. There's always politics and a chance of a biased POV because of how reputable a casino could be in this forum especially if they are advertising their campaign here for a long time.

I have seen gamblers who complain a lot in the casino chatbox of Stake.com and yet they are still there playing. (most complaints are just losing streaks or low RTP accusations) The same goes for another popular reputable casino. It will be a difficult position for a mediator especially if there are no facts that could be presented by the gambler and it will likely turn out to align on the casino's side.

Time and effort will also be used, who will fund all those things because as a mediator they will be discussing it on both sides which means trouble in other stuff that they do. But I do like the idea although we cannot expect too much that there will be always one reputable member to do this. As long as it is for the sake of clearing the name of a casino or giving the gambler justice if ever the accusation is true.

[btc_angela]

There are a few non biased people I've seen comment in the scam accusation section, but what happens if we have a panel of judges on here? Possible corruption could happen and the "judges" might be able to be bought either by the casino or by the accuser. If we could keep the corruption out of it then it might be a good idea, but I don't think it's going to happen.

And even if there are no corruptions, once that supposedly trusted members leans toward the casino, then there could be a lot of accusations on him/her and there could be members who think that he is biased.

And I guess no one is qualified here to be a so called judge, specially if they haven't been in the business itself but just a regular player or even non players per se. So this casino complaint might not work after all.

[Strongkored]

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this?

The idea is good, but the implementation probably won't go as well as hoped because just as a casino receives accusations of cheating so the panel of this forum can get accusations of cheating too, so it will actually be difficult to fully support both the casino and the players other than the two halves discussing to find a resolution of any accusations that occurred.
And actually it will really depend on the members who will be the panel members whether they are willing to do it, because this requires effort that is not easy and it will also take time, and I suspect they will not be willing to do it because it will increase suspicion to them, so what can done only pushing the casino to answer the accusations but the settlement will depend on the casino.

[komisariatku]

~cut~
What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

I think bitcointalk has nothing to do with them, they only use the forum as a promotional medium so what happens inside and outside the forum is their responsibility. Indeed forums are often used as a medium for problems that occur, but this is done by members of the forum and is not the responsibility of the forum

If you want to create threads for problem resolution between gambling sites and gamblers, that is allowed and it is your responsibility to manage that thread. I think it's a difficult task, if you are able to do it maybe it will be good. But most cases are in a gray area, sometimes there is no evidence or a lack of evidence, so we don't know for sure who is guilty.

[noorman0]

-snip-
Most of the time we recommend to move the case on Askgambler to have a mediator for the case.

Ofcourse, Askgambler (recognized by almost all casino companies) is indeed oriented towards advice & complaint services which may already have complete facilities, such as connections or recommendations to several law firms for serious cases.

Users of these forums have different capabilities for running such mediation panels. Also most casinos don't trust pseudonymous people without a clear preference of proficiency to seek a solution that is considered fair.

[robelneo]

There are a few non biased people I've seen comment in the scam accusation section, but what happens if we have a panel of judges on here? Possible corruption could happen and the "judges" might be able to be bought either by the casino or by the accuser. If we could keep the corruption out of it then it might be a good idea, but I don't think it's going to happen.

I agree the scam section should be free and independent, it should depend on every member's perspective and analysis, if the majority are agreeing that the accusation is legit and not true and the evidence is obvious then we can have a clear idea of who's telling the truth, let both parties bring their issues to other platforms and let us just remain free from expressing our opinion.

There is an added responsibility for every judge or panel here people may think that they are conniving, you cannot please everybody when you are the judge, especially in cases about casinos and I don't think anybody here wants to be in that position.

[Learn Bitcoin]

a.) Forum User Profiles are dispensable. If a user that abused the casino comes with a scam accusation, after losing that battle, that user is not punished in any significant way. You will not see someone with an established profile to come and claim it, it's mostly smaller to medium accounts.

This part is very crucial. I agree with you. We always see scam accusations created by newbie accounts or somewhat low-ranked accounts. But, sometimes, we can understand that the user is not a newbie in this forum by seeing their writing style. It's not impossible, but it's strange when a user creates a scam accusation right after creating his account. It should take some time to understand what is scam accusation board and how it works.

Even though they have another good ranked account, they decide to create a new account to create the scam accusation. This part is fishy. Why not create the accusation from the main account? Maybe they are guilty of doing something against the rules and if it's proved, they may be tagged as proven cheater / scammer.

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

I recently read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5458053.0 about Rollbit disabling the user account without further explanation. By the flow of this case, It's either the user will use 3rd party service to file complaint or the representative of the casino will directly answer all the complain on scam accusation thread.

When something like this happens, we cannot judge by hearing from one side of view without hearing from the other end, that's why it's of a very good importance to make use of casinos that have their representative on the forum for adequate response, in this case the best thing to first do is to join in their Ann thread discussion and present the challenges for their representative or people to give comments, they cannot be silent when you're having a serious challenge except it's just a distraction they are seing from what you're saying.


 

[Coin_trader]

There are a few non biased people I've seen comment in the scam accusation section, but what happens if we have a panel of judges on here? Possible corruption could happen and the "judges" might be able to be bought either by the casino or by the accuser. If we could keep the corruption out of it then it might be a good idea, but I don't think it's going to happen.

And even if there are no corruptions, once that supposedly trusted members leans toward the casino, then there could be a lot of accusations on him/her and there could be members who think that he is biased.

And I guess no one is qualified here to be a so called judge, specially if they haven't been in the business itself but just a regular player or even non players per se. So this casino complaint might not work after all.

I think a group of reputable user here will solve this uncertainty. Just like a jury system, They can give a vote and provide explanation on their decision to make sure they are not bias. Being paid or bias is easy to spot since his reasoning will be not logical. Also I doubt a reputable member here will sell his reputation while he can easily earn it through signature campaign.

This idea is very hard to implement but this will be useful with the right procedure on handling cases.

[decodx]

There are a few non biased people I've seen comment in the scam accusation section, but what happens if we have a panel of judges on here? Possible corruption could happen and the "judges" might be able to be bought either by the casino or by the accuser. If we could keep the corruption out of it then it might be a good idea, but I don't think it's going to happen.

And even if there are no corruptions, once that supposedly trusted members leans toward the casino, then there could be a lot of accusations on him/her and there could be members who think that he is biased.

And I guess no one is qualified here to be a so called judge, specially if they haven't been in the business itself but just a regular player or even non players per se. So this casino complaint might not work after all.

I think a group of reputable user here will solve this uncertainty. Just like a jury system, They can give a vote and provide explanation on their decision to make sure they are not bias. Being paid or bias is easy to spot since his reasoning will be not logical. Also I doubt a reputable member here will sell his reputation while he can easily earn it through signature campaign.

This idea is very hard to implement but this will be useful with the right procedure on handling cases.

Exactly! I'm glad I ain't the only one who feels this way. It's like the jury system. While it's possible for a few individuals to be biased or corrupt, it's unlikely that the majority would be. Evan in the real world, we can't be expecting a perfect legal system, but we can totally work towards it.

From what I've gathered about the folks on this forum, I'd bet there's a hefty bunch who wouldn't risk their reputation by accepting bribes or being swayed by corruption. No matter what comes their way, they seem like the type who won't budge.

[SirJohnVonSlotty]

Wapfika seems like we're not moving in to any direction with this conversation

I left my reply above if you're up for discussing it further.

[decodx]

Wapfika seems like we're not moving in to any direction with this conversation

I left my reply above if you're up for discussing it further.

It's great to have someone who really knows their stuff about the casino industry joining in on the discussion! I gave your comment an upvote (merit) to give it some extra weight because I feel like you brought up some solid points that deserve more attention. Let's keep this conversation going and dig into those points for some interesting discussion.

[Helena Yu]

Your idea is pretty much similar like this project which has been suspended [IBCO - suspended] ⚽🎰 Casino Critique⭐ FREE Chip for BCT Members ❤️‍🔥. Although I don't know what's the reason the project has been suspended, but some users think the project is operated by untrustworthy users.

I don't think it's good to have such project, there's a chance of corruption or it turn become scam, moreover the casino might don't care about the project because they view this project is same like the other users. I mean, both are same, you're contacting the casino via social media and wait until they replied your message.

I see you're use Rollbit as the example. don't forget Trustdice's representative created their own thread to stop reply any accusation toward them.

[SirJohnVonSlotty]

I see you're use Rollbit as the example. don't forget Trustdice's representative created their own thread to stop reply any accusation toward them.

Yeah, this is what I mentioned, the forum is one-sided and even if you're right, certain people will pack together and go against you just because you're the operator, and they are the user.

I already said several times that it's in our best interest to pay out a winning customer since building a multi-year long strategy on angry customers is never a good idea, but people still think that casinos tend to scam them from their winnings because they need those 5-7k, but that's not true. 

And from the experience that I have, I can tell you that there are far more users that want to scam a casino, than casinos that want to scam the user. All my colleagues from the industry have similar problems, a huge influx of bonus abusers on a daily basis, and how to improve the matrix to spot them.

And then, if you end up with a "cancel culture" type of user that scammed you first, but claims that you scammed him, he will leave a negative review on a myriad of platforms (and there are many of them in the past 1-2 years) you need to have the energy and resources to deal with it. Which is hard if you're not represented on that platform at all.

If you're looking for a fresh example, you don't have to go far, just check out our BTCGosu's review and the comment from the user: https://www.btcgosu.com/review/coinslotty-casino/

The user left a 1 star review because he was multi-accounting on the site with several different IP's, from unsupported countries, which we label as a "bonus abuser"

Did I reply to him? Of course I did.
Did he understood that he's a bonus abuser? Nope.
Does the casino still have that 1 Start Rating? Yep.
The amount in question? About less than $500


And let me not start with the rating issue in general.

A user who is happy with the winnings and performance of the casino will rarely leave a review, if they do, they will do it because there's some type of incentive, and they will give you a 5 star review. In most cases though, people will label those 5 star reviews as "not trustworthy" since they are 5 stars.
A user who is not happy with the casino, be it due to his own fault or due to not knowing how a casino works, will exclusively leave a 1 star review.

What does that do in the end? You're either extremely bad or suspiciously excellent : )))

Look at Betsafe, one of the most legit online casinos that I know: https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.betsafe.com

Complete shit show.

 

[examplens]

Maybe let's go back to the beginning and remind ourselves that this is a Bitcointalk forum. Where Bitcoin is the basic reason for the existence of this forum. Now we have a discussion on how to adapt it to gambling and the role of a judge between the user and the casino.
There is already a scam accusation section and there are quite a few cases where forum members influenced the final outcome of the case. In the end, nobody from here can help much if the casino does not want to participate. Giving negative feedback is the maximum of criminal policy, and cases like 1xbit are proof that this is definitely not enough.

I would agree entirely with SirJohnVonSlotty and his observation on this topic. It is essential to have information from someone who has inside experience in the operation of the casino

And let me not start with the rating issue in general.

A user who is happy with the winnings and performance of the casino will rarely leave a review, if they do, they will do it because there's some type of incentive, and they will give you a 5 star review. In most cases though, people will label those 5 star reviews as "not trustworthy" since they are 5 stars.
A user who is not happy with the casino, be it due to his own fault or due to not knowing how a casino works, will exclusively leave a 1 star review.

What does that do in the end? You're either extremely bad or suspiciously excellent : )))

SirJohnVonSlotty, I really hope that your departure from the forum will be only temporary, as you have already written somewhere. You were refreshing and it was interesting to read you. Respect you and all the best in your future work.
Who knows, maybe the position of manager of the Casino complaint panel that the OP mentions is waiting for you. 

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

If you're looking for a fresh example, you don't have to go far, just check out our BTCGosu's review and the comment from the user: https://www.btcgosu.com/review/coinslotty-casino/

The user left a 1 star review because he was multi-accounting on the site with several different IP's, from unsupported countries, which we label as a "bonus abuser"

Did I reply to him? Of course I did.
Did he understood that he's a bonus abuser? Nope.
Does the casino still have that 1 Start Rating? Yep.
The amount in question? About less than $500


And let me not start with the rating issue in general.

When I play in a casino, I personally do not even look what rating they have in different review websites. These review websites are business itself. If you pay them money, then they will leave you good review. If you don't have good relationship with them then they will not even care about you. When it comes to the end users, most of the happy customers never care to go through reviewing a product especially in casino industry the gamblers when they win, they are happy with the money they won. They have no time to spend half an hour to review you. They will use this half an hour to place another bet. All these complains and bad mouths are the users who lost their bets, when they are frustrated and lost a lot then they try to take a chance with creating accusations with the hope that they will at least get their deposit back. At least in this forum we have created a culture that if you have any problem with your client then at least refund the deposit.

Then there are these review campaigns. You are sending rewards and they are reviewing your project. Obviously when they do, they know a good review will make you please. You will pay.

I personally try to take my own experience with casinos. When I find a casino is doing well, in the community from long time, there are less talk about them, but more work is in development, I register and deposit some amounts that I have no love for it. If I lose all, I don't mind but if I win and able to withdraw then I keep it in my list. When I feel to play with them again then I login and continue, if necessary, I make more deposit. This way I personally experience myself. There are few casinos I love to play and all they are somehow permanent to me. When I am not in an experiment mode then I simply go with the regular casinos I bet and take my fun. Sportsbet.io is at the top of my list because I don't need to wait for my BTC to confirm first before making the bets.

The key to have an established business in the forum is to have longevity and consistency. Checking review sites, what review you have earned or buying review are just waste of time and money. Stay in front of the crowd for months, years, be consistent and you will find slowly people are moving to you.

[JollyGood]

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

In your opinion do you think the neutrality of a campaign manager will be called in to question if he is going to be part of a group of trusted users that will pass judgement on a casino/website that employ him and pay him?

Also, who will elect and/or select these trusted users you refer to? What criteria would be required to either be nominated or eliminated from applying to join this group of trusted users?

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

No, I do not think it is a good idea because if somehow consensus was reached, the moment the element of money/tip is brought in to the equation it virtually nullifies any possible legitimacy the group of trusted users might have had.

If DT members cannot reach consensus on simple issues they should not be joining a group of their own that has no scrutiny and their judgements will forever be associated with the name of this forum. No, I do not think it is a good idea.

There are a few non biased people I've seen comment in the scam accusation section, but what happens if we have a panel of judges on here? Possible corruption could happen and the "judges" might be able to be bought either by the casino or by the accuser. If we could keep the corruption out of it then it might be a good idea, but I don't think it's going to happen.

I would say that if such an idea of group of trusted users went ahead the corruption would be inevitable, it would simply be just a matter of time before allegations of corruption started making rounds.

[Wapfika]

We do not need it IMO, we have scam accusation board already and it is the best board for such complain.

But it's not. I was quite active there, and it's not. It's one sided, the crew mostly supports the forum user, and #allcasinosarescam is written all over it. Here and there you would find someone who would think of the operator, but all in all it's not the best board for resolving complains.

I read mix opinion about my suggestion but most of this suggestion is prolly based on the title itself without understanding the whole point of this suggestion.

It's in the gambling sub so you'll have tons of people coming to fulfill their comment quotas for the day

Regarding your idea, I agree that we would need a better process, but to have a successful scam accusation case being solved, the setup would need the following:

#1. A Casino Representative. If there's no representative on the forum, you will not get them to reply to anyone. I'm telling this because operators, in general, hate forums since in 90% of them users discuss bonus abusing mechanics. So if you don't have a forum representative, you'll not reach the casino department, especially if they know that they are right. They will not even enter the conversation.

#2. A Casino Affiliate. Someone who is in touch with the casino and actively promotes their offers on their site and on their forum, just as another touching point between the forum and the casino. 

#3. Someone who understands how players cheat. This is crucial, because if no one knows how bonus abusers breath, everyone will hold the forum users side, not thinking of the operator at all.

#4.Someone who understands how operators cheat. Similar to above, you would need someone to point out flaws and methods scam casinos use.

Only then could you effectively communicate and solve this case, but the issue that arises after that is:

a.) Forum User Profiles are dispensable. If a user that abused the casino comes with a scam accusation, after losing that battle, that user is not punished in any significant way. You will not see someone with an established profile to come and claim it, it's mostly smaller to medium accounts.
b.) Casinos don't care if they are listed as scam on 1 forum. Now the other side of the coin, what if the user is right and the casino is wrong? Well, in general, nothing will happen, people will still go to that casino and gamble there if the marketing is strong enough. One single scam accusation, or even 5 of them on 1 forum will not make a dent.


 So, in general, I do agree with you, we would need a better scam accusation process, but I have no idea how to make it work.

Thank you @SirJohnVonSlotty, Thank for the valid point that you point out on this post. This is the kind of discussion I’m actually longing by opening this thread. I’m looking for a discussion on how will this work because I don’t have much knowledge on how to properly handling this kind of issue.

Wapfika seems like we're not moving in to any direction with this conversation

I left my reply above if you're up for discussing it further.

We will not gonna have a good conversation here now that my dumbness for not making this a self-moderated thread. I think it's better to create a new thread for this topic instead of continuing the discussion out of bunch of replies here that doesn't tackle the real point of discussion.


As my final not on your pointers above, I think this will solved if this group of user that will act like some kind of Jury and Judge system will be on DT with a very strong reputation. The point of this panel is to help those forum member that has issue on casino that has an active thread here and not those not in forum scope. 

[Woodie]

I don't think such a panel is necessary especially  that this is a free service means processing such complaints would take longer to conclude as forum members come from all parts of the world and such issues need to be processed in close to real time while the issue is fresh!

Besides, using the wisdom of the forum and backed by DT members that can tag erring members or casino representatives to prompt for a reaction to get this solved has shown to work over the years and will keep working.
 

[Dunamisx]

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

How you discovered that scam is not moderated by the forum here, but we individually take actions to tag and leave a review down for other users coming across such people in the future for them to be careful with whom they are dealing with, those using the forum to advertise their services and other businesses aren't verified by the forum to be genuine or not, you only get those opportunities here to work for someone base on your level of trust in what they offer, what the forum kicked against is when you break it rules, settings a scrutinizing panel from the forum will be unnecessary since they are not moderated, you work for someone here at your own risk.

[fullhdpixel]

I recently read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5458053.0 about Rollbit disabling the user account without further explanation. By the flow of this case, It's either the user will use 3rd party service to file complaint or the representative of the casino will directly answer all the complain on scam accusation thread. The problem arise when both party claimin they are right while they can't provide documents in public, Most of the time we recommend to move the case on Askgambler to have a mediator for the case.

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

Well, the idea isn't bad but it is not really easy to successfully execute something like that and keep it operational for years to come, scams from casinos and cheatings from gamblers have only just started and as the industry keeps growing bigger and bigger, we will start having more cases like these, now the question is, can we have trusted users who that will be available all the time for handling such things?

It can be a bit easy if there are many users who are ready to take the responsibility so that we may have at least one or two users available at all times in the forum considering we have people from all around the world and time zones can make a difference in here.

[CryptSafe]

I remember vividly clearly some times early this year I raised a topic similar to this on the gambling board but it was refuted while some were okay with the opinion but it was let go just like that and nothing happened. I think it is nice you put up this topic again because this is a major concern of gambling boards and if you check the scam accusations board, you would notice the majority of the complaints are basically against casinos and looking at it, it would be better such proposals is looked into to further minimise the rate at which these occurences takes place.

[BenCodie]

A thread that would detail all open, resolved and closed cases, as well as all casinos that have been verified to be a scam vs. still operating without an official scam/warning label, will suffice better than an individual complaint panel. The reason why is because the aforementioned thread could exist relevantly in the Gambling board, therefore will be effective in raising awareness.

I've been working on one in my off-time for around 4 weeks. It's a lot of damn work. Though when it's done, I'm sure it'll be an effective resource that will be easy to maintain from inception onward.

[Bounty Bro]

At some point, we can conclude scamming customers is a big business model of many Casino or Gambling sites.
Because how many customers will complain publicly?
Not many and even less will finally get a refund.
Some customers will just write a negative review, walk away and Casino or Gambling site will keep all profits.

[yahoo62278]

At some point, we can conclude scamming customers is a big business model of many Casino or Gambling sites.
Because how many customers will complain publicly?
Not many and even less will finally get a refund.
Some customers will just write a negative review, walk away and Casino or Gambling site will keep all profits.

That might be true of some users who don't know where to complain, but if a panel of users were to be created and someone did some good SEO work, it could end up being a top search result for where to file complaints against casinos. Now whether or not casinos will agree to use said panel as a mediator is another problem.

[SirJohnVonSlotty]

At some point, we can conclude scamming customers is a big business model of many Casino or Gambling sites.
Because how many customers will complain publicly?
Not many and even less will finally get a refund.
Some customers will just write a negative review, walk away and Casino or Gambling site will keep all profits.

Besides necroposting, and not being on point of the topic at all, what you're saying isn't completely true.

The gambling industry is here for pure entertainment, and it should be advertised like that. Most MGA and UKGC licensed brands, as well as Swedish and Canadian ones, already abide by that. Some curacao or unlicensed brands aren't that attentive and I don't support that.

Additionally, most brands that are actually looking to make their name within the industry don't have any incentive into scamming you. Why would they scam you for $200 one time, while they could win you over and turn into a stable player who will continuously return to the brand? It just doesn't make sense.

However, the casino will punish your stupid mistakes, things like;
#1. You play from a restricted country with fake documents, deposit $100 and win $1000, but don't want to KYC. You will not be able to withdraw your initial deposit, or the winnings.
#2. Players try to scam the casino with several accounts open, either on that solo casino or within the casino group. Again, a simple KYC will solve everything.
#3. Players don't read the TOS and complain about wagering requirements, especially in money laundering cases.

I assure you that on every 5 casinos that are "scamming customers" there are 10.000 players who are scamming the casino. So obviously we build strong matrix systems to guard us from them.

I was also active within the scams category on this forum and I can tell you that out of 10 cases in 9 cases the casino was right. People just don't read the TOS or don't know how the industry works, they get burned and they end up in that section whining. The worst thing is you have to dig through it like an idiot, the last customer that "got scammed" was actually playing from a restricted country, but didn't want to tell us that, we just found it out through a random screenshot he provided.