Bitcointalk own Casino complaint panel

[Learn Bitcoin]

a.) Forum User Profiles are dispensable. If a user that abused the casino comes with a scam accusation, after losing that battle, that user is not punished in any significant way. You will not see someone with an established profile to come and claim it, it's mostly smaller to medium accounts.

This part is very crucial. I agree with you. We always see scam accusations created by newbie accounts or somewhat low-ranked accounts. But, sometimes, we can understand that the user is not a newbie in this forum by seeing their writing style. It's not impossible, but it's strange when a user creates a scam accusation right after creating his account. It should take some time to understand what is scam accusation board and how it works.

Even though they have another good ranked account, they decide to create a new account to create the scam accusation. This part is fishy. Why not create the accusation from the main account? Maybe they are guilty of doing something against the rules and if it's proved, they may be tagged as proven cheater / scammer.

[1714603040]

1714603040

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

I recently read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5458053.0 about Rollbit disabling the user account without further explanation. By the flow of this case, It's either the user will use 3rd party service to file complaint or the representative of the casino will directly answer all the complain on scam accusation thread.

When something like this happens, we cannot judge by hearing from one side of view without hearing from the other end, that's why it's of a very good importance to make use of casinos that have their representative on the forum for adequate response, in this case the best thing to first do is to join in their Ann thread discussion and present the challenges for their representative or people to give comments, they cannot be silent when you're having a serious challenge except it's just a distraction they are seing from what you're saying.


 

[Coin_trader]

There are a few non biased people I've seen comment in the scam accusation section, but what happens if we have a panel of judges on here? Possible corruption could happen and the "judges" might be able to be bought either by the casino or by the accuser. If we could keep the corruption out of it then it might be a good idea, but I don't think it's going to happen.

And even if there are no corruptions, once that supposedly trusted members leans toward the casino, then there could be a lot of accusations on him/her and there could be members who think that he is biased.

And I guess no one is qualified here to be a so called judge, specially if they haven't been in the business itself but just a regular player or even non players per se. So this casino complaint might not work after all.

I think a group of reputable user here will solve this uncertainty. Just like a jury system, They can give a vote and provide explanation on their decision to make sure they are not bias. Being paid or bias is easy to spot since his reasoning will be not logical. Also I doubt a reputable member here will sell his reputation while he can easily earn it through signature campaign.

This idea is very hard to implement but this will be useful with the right procedure on handling cases.

[decodx]

There are a few non biased people I've seen comment in the scam accusation section, but what happens if we have a panel of judges on here? Possible corruption could happen and the "judges" might be able to be bought either by the casino or by the accuser. If we could keep the corruption out of it then it might be a good idea, but I don't think it's going to happen.

And even if there are no corruptions, once that supposedly trusted members leans toward the casino, then there could be a lot of accusations on him/her and there could be members who think that he is biased.

And I guess no one is qualified here to be a so called judge, specially if they haven't been in the business itself but just a regular player or even non players per se. So this casino complaint might not work after all.

I think a group of reputable user here will solve this uncertainty. Just like a jury system, They can give a vote and provide explanation on their decision to make sure they are not bias. Being paid or bias is easy to spot since his reasoning will be not logical. Also I doubt a reputable member here will sell his reputation while he can easily earn it through signature campaign.

This idea is very hard to implement but this will be useful with the right procedure on handling cases.

Exactly! I'm glad I ain't the only one who feels this way. It's like the jury system. While it's possible for a few individuals to be biased or corrupt, it's unlikely that the majority would be. Evan in the real world, we can't be expecting a perfect legal system, but we can totally work towards it.

From what I've gathered about the folks on this forum, I'd bet there's a hefty bunch who wouldn't risk their reputation by accepting bribes or being swayed by corruption. No matter what comes their way, they seem like the type who won't budge.

[SirJohnVonSlotty]

Wapfika seems like we're not moving in to any direction with this conversation

I left my reply above if you're up for discussing it further.

[decodx]

Wapfika seems like we're not moving in to any direction with this conversation

I left my reply above if you're up for discussing it further.

It's great to have someone who really knows their stuff about the casino industry joining in on the discussion! I gave your comment an upvote (merit) to give it some extra weight because I feel like you brought up some solid points that deserve more attention. Let's keep this conversation going and dig into those points for some interesting discussion.

[Helena Yu]

Your idea is pretty much similar like this project which has been suspended [IBCO - suspended] ⚽🎰 Casino Critique⭐ FREE Chip for BCT Members ❤️‍🔥. Although I don't know what's the reason the project has been suspended, but some users think the project is operated by untrustworthy users.

I don't think it's good to have such project, there's a chance of corruption or it turn become scam, moreover the casino might don't care about the project because they view this project is same like the other users. I mean, both are same, you're contacting the casino via social media and wait until they replied your message.

I see you're use Rollbit as the example. don't forget Trustdice's representative created their own thread to stop reply any accusation toward them.

[SirJohnVonSlotty]

I see you're use Rollbit as the example. don't forget Trustdice's representative created their own thread to stop reply any accusation toward them.

Yeah, this is what I mentioned, the forum is one-sided and even if you're right, certain people will pack together and go against you just because you're the operator, and they are the user.

I already said several times that it's in our best interest to pay out a winning customer since building a multi-year long strategy on angry customers is never a good idea, but people still think that casinos tend to scam them from their winnings because they need those 5-7k, but that's not true. 

And from the experience that I have, I can tell you that there are far more users that want to scam a casino, than casinos that want to scam the user. All my colleagues from the industry have similar problems, a huge influx of bonus abusers on a daily basis, and how to improve the matrix to spot them.

And then, if you end up with a "cancel culture" type of user that scammed you first, but claims that you scammed him, he will leave a negative review on a myriad of platforms (and there are many of them in the past 1-2 years) you need to have the energy and resources to deal with it. Which is hard if you're not represented on that platform at all.

If you're looking for a fresh example, you don't have to go far, just check out our BTCGosu's review and the comment from the user: https://www.btcgosu.com/review/coinslotty-casino/

The user left a 1 star review because he was multi-accounting on the site with several different IP's, from unsupported countries, which we label as a "bonus abuser"

Did I reply to him? Of course I did.
Did he understood that he's a bonus abuser? Nope.
Does the casino still have that 1 Start Rating? Yep.
The amount in question? About less than $500


And let me not start with the rating issue in general.

A user who is happy with the winnings and performance of the casino will rarely leave a review, if they do, they will do it because there's some type of incentive, and they will give you a 5 star review. In most cases though, people will label those 5 star reviews as "not trustworthy" since they are 5 stars.
A user who is not happy with the casino, be it due to his own fault or due to not knowing how a casino works, will exclusively leave a 1 star review.

What does that do in the end? You're either extremely bad or suspiciously excellent : )))

Look at Betsafe, one of the most legit online casinos that I know: https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.betsafe.com

Complete shit show.

 

[examplens]

Maybe let's go back to the beginning and remind ourselves that this is a Bitcointalk forum. Where Bitcoin is the basic reason for the existence of this forum. Now we have a discussion on how to adapt it to gambling and the role of a judge between the user and the casino.
There is already a scam accusation section and there are quite a few cases where forum members influenced the final outcome of the case. In the end, nobody from here can help much if the casino does not want to participate. Giving negative feedback is the maximum of criminal policy, and cases like 1xbit are proof that this is definitely not enough.

I would agree entirely with SirJohnVonSlotty and his observation on this topic. It is essential to have information from someone who has inside experience in the operation of the casino

And let me not start with the rating issue in general.

A user who is happy with the winnings and performance of the casino will rarely leave a review, if they do, they will do it because there's some type of incentive, and they will give you a 5 star review. In most cases though, people will label those 5 star reviews as "not trustworthy" since they are 5 stars.
A user who is not happy with the casino, be it due to his own fault or due to not knowing how a casino works, will exclusively leave a 1 star review.

What does that do in the end? You're either extremely bad or suspiciously excellent : )))

SirJohnVonSlotty, I really hope that your departure from the forum will be only temporary, as you have already written somewhere. You were refreshing and it was interesting to read you. Respect you and all the best in your future work.
Who knows, maybe the position of manager of the Casino complaint panel that the OP mentions is waiting for you. 

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

If you're looking for a fresh example, you don't have to go far, just check out our BTCGosu's review and the comment from the user: https://www.btcgosu.com/review/coinslotty-casino/

The user left a 1 star review because he was multi-accounting on the site with several different IP's, from unsupported countries, which we label as a "bonus abuser"

Did I reply to him? Of course I did.
Did he understood that he's a bonus abuser? Nope.
Does the casino still have that 1 Start Rating? Yep.
The amount in question? About less than $500


And let me not start with the rating issue in general.

When I play in a casino, I personally do not even look what rating they have in different review websites. These review websites are business itself. If you pay them money, then they will leave you good review. If you don't have good relationship with them then they will not even care about you. When it comes to the end users, most of the happy customers never care to go through reviewing a product especially in casino industry the gamblers when they win, they are happy with the money they won. They have no time to spend half an hour to review you. They will use this half an hour to place another bet. All these complains and bad mouths are the users who lost their bets, when they are frustrated and lost a lot then they try to take a chance with creating accusations with the hope that they will at least get their deposit back. At least in this forum we have created a culture that if you have any problem with your client then at least refund the deposit.

Then there are these review campaigns. You are sending rewards and they are reviewing your project. Obviously when they do, they know a good review will make you please. You will pay.

I personally try to take my own experience with casinos. When I find a casino is doing well, in the community from long time, there are less talk about them, but more work is in development, I register and deposit some amounts that I have no love for it. If I lose all, I don't mind but if I win and able to withdraw then I keep it in my list. When I feel to play with them again then I login and continue, if necessary, I make more deposit. This way I personally experience myself. There are few casinos I love to play and all they are somehow permanent to me. When I am not in an experiment mode then I simply go with the regular casinos I bet and take my fun. Sportsbet.io is at the top of my list because I don't need to wait for my BTC to confirm first before making the bets.

The key to have an established business in the forum is to have longevity and consistency. Checking review sites, what review you have earned or buying review are just waste of time and money. Stay in front of the crowd for months, years, be consistent and you will find slowly people are moving to you.

[JollyGood]

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

In your opinion do you think the neutrality of a campaign manager will be called in to question if he is going to be part of a group of trusted users that will pass judgement on a casino/website that employ him and pay him?

Also, who will elect and/or select these trusted users you refer to? What criteria would be required to either be nominated or eliminated from applying to join this group of trusted users?

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

No, I do not think it is a good idea because if somehow consensus was reached, the moment the element of money/tip is brought in to the equation it virtually nullifies any possible legitimacy the group of trusted users might have had.

If DT members cannot reach consensus on simple issues they should not be joining a group of their own that has no scrutiny and their judgements will forever be associated with the name of this forum. No, I do not think it is a good idea.

There are a few non biased people I've seen comment in the scam accusation section, but what happens if we have a panel of judges on here? Possible corruption could happen and the "judges" might be able to be bought either by the casino or by the accuser. If we could keep the corruption out of it then it might be a good idea, but I don't think it's going to happen.

I would say that if such an idea of group of trusted users went ahead the corruption would be inevitable, it would simply be just a matter of time before allegations of corruption started making rounds.

[Wapfika]

We do not need it IMO, we have scam accusation board already and it is the best board for such complain.

But it's not. I was quite active there, and it's not. It's one sided, the crew mostly supports the forum user, and #allcasinosarescam is written all over it. Here and there you would find someone who would think of the operator, but all in all it's not the best board for resolving complains.

I read mix opinion about my suggestion but most of this suggestion is prolly based on the title itself without understanding the whole point of this suggestion.

It's in the gambling sub so you'll have tons of people coming to fulfill their comment quotas for the day

Regarding your idea, I agree that we would need a better process, but to have a successful scam accusation case being solved, the setup would need the following:

#1. A Casino Representative. If there's no representative on the forum, you will not get them to reply to anyone. I'm telling this because operators, in general, hate forums since in 90% of them users discuss bonus abusing mechanics. So if you don't have a forum representative, you'll not reach the casino department, especially if they know that they are right. They will not even enter the conversation.

#2. A Casino Affiliate. Someone who is in touch with the casino and actively promotes their offers on their site and on their forum, just as another touching point between the forum and the casino. 

#3. Someone who understands how players cheat. This is crucial, because if no one knows how bonus abusers breath, everyone will hold the forum users side, not thinking of the operator at all.

#4.Someone who understands how operators cheat. Similar to above, you would need someone to point out flaws and methods scam casinos use.

Only then could you effectively communicate and solve this case, but the issue that arises after that is:

a.) Forum User Profiles are dispensable. If a user that abused the casino comes with a scam accusation, after losing that battle, that user is not punished in any significant way. You will not see someone with an established profile to come and claim it, it's mostly smaller to medium accounts.
b.) Casinos don't care if they are listed as scam on 1 forum. Now the other side of the coin, what if the user is right and the casino is wrong? Well, in general, nothing will happen, people will still go to that casino and gamble there if the marketing is strong enough. One single scam accusation, or even 5 of them on 1 forum will not make a dent.


 So, in general, I do agree with you, we would need a better scam accusation process, but I have no idea how to make it work.

Thank you @SirJohnVonSlotty, Thank for the valid point that you point out on this post. This is the kind of discussion I’m actually longing by opening this thread. I’m looking for a discussion on how will this work because I don’t have much knowledge on how to properly handling this kind of issue.

Wapfika seems like we're not moving in to any direction with this conversation

I left my reply above if you're up for discussing it further.

We will not gonna have a good conversation here now that my dumbness for not making this a self-moderated thread. I think it's better to create a new thread for this topic instead of continuing the discussion out of bunch of replies here that doesn't tackle the real point of discussion.


As my final not on your pointers above, I think this will solved if this group of user that will act like some kind of Jury and Judge system will be on DT with a very strong reputation. The point of this panel is to help those forum member that has issue on casino that has an active thread here and not those not in forum scope. 

[Woodie]

I don't think such a panel is necessary especially  that this is a free service means processing such complaints would take longer to conclude as forum members come from all parts of the world and such issues need to be processed in close to real time while the issue is fresh!

Besides, using the wisdom of the forum and backed by DT members that can tag erring members or casino representatives to prompt for a reaction to get this solved has shown to work over the years and will keep working.
 

[Dunamisx]

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

How you discovered that scam is not moderated by the forum here, but we individually take actions to tag and leave a review down for other users coming across such people in the future for them to be careful with whom they are dealing with, those using the forum to advertise their services and other businesses aren't verified by the forum to be genuine or not, you only get those opportunities here to work for someone base on your level of trust in what they offer, what the forum kicked against is when you break it rules, settings a scrutinizing panel from the forum will be unnecessary since they are not moderated, you work for someone here at your own risk.

[fullhdpixel]

I recently read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5458053.0 about Rollbit disabling the user account without further explanation. By the flow of this case, It's either the user will use 3rd party service to file complaint or the representative of the casino will directly answer all the complain on scam accusation thread. The problem arise when both party claimin they are right while they can't provide documents in public, Most of the time we recommend to move the case on Askgambler to have a mediator for the case.

What if we have our own group of trusted user that can act as mediator to look on the case. We have a lot of talented and respectable user here that capable on handling the situation while most the casino representative has a close contact on campaign manager here.

Do you think this is a good idea to solve cases like this? Take note only case that involved a valid evidence and argument will be considered. A tip is also required in case the complainant is willing to use the forum service.

Well, the idea isn't bad but it is not really easy to successfully execute something like that and keep it operational for years to come, scams from casinos and cheatings from gamblers have only just started and as the industry keeps growing bigger and bigger, we will start having more cases like these, now the question is, can we have trusted users who that will be available all the time for handling such things?

It can be a bit easy if there are many users who are ready to take the responsibility so that we may have at least one or two users available at all times in the forum considering we have people from all around the world and time zones can make a difference in here.

[CryptSafe]

I remember vividly clearly some times early this year I raised a topic similar to this on the gambling board but it was refuted while some were okay with the opinion but it was let go just like that and nothing happened. I think it is nice you put up this topic again because this is a major concern of gambling boards and if you check the scam accusations board, you would notice the majority of the complaints are basically against casinos and looking at it, it would be better such proposals is looked into to further minimise the rate at which these occurences takes place.

[BenCodie]

A thread that would detail all open, resolved and closed cases, as well as all casinos that have been verified to be a scam vs. still operating without an official scam/warning label, will suffice better than an individual complaint panel. The reason why is because the aforementioned thread could exist relevantly in the Gambling board, therefore will be effective in raising awareness.

I've been working on one in my off-time for around 4 weeks. It's a lot of damn work. Though when it's done, I'm sure it'll be an effective resource that will be easy to maintain from inception onward.

[Bounty Bro]

At some point, we can conclude scamming customers is a big business model of many Casino or Gambling sites.
Because how many customers will complain publicly?
Not many and even less will finally get a refund.
Some customers will just write a negative review, walk away and Casino or Gambling site will keep all profits.

[yahoo62278]

At some point, we can conclude scamming customers is a big business model of many Casino or Gambling sites.
Because how many customers will complain publicly?
Not many and even less will finally get a refund.
Some customers will just write a negative review, walk away and Casino or Gambling site will keep all profits.

That might be true of some users who don't know where to complain, but if a panel of users were to be created and someone did some good SEO work, it could end up being a top search result for where to file complaints against casinos. Now whether or not casinos will agree to use said panel as a mediator is another problem.

[SirJohnVonSlotty]

At some point, we can conclude scamming customers is a big business model of many Casino or Gambling sites.
Because how many customers will complain publicly?
Not many and even less will finally get a refund.
Some customers will just write a negative review, walk away and Casino or Gambling site will keep all profits.

Besides necroposting, and not being on point of the topic at all, what you're saying isn't completely true.

The gambling industry is here for pure entertainment, and it should be advertised like that. Most MGA and UKGC licensed brands, as well as Swedish and Canadian ones, already abide by that. Some curacao or unlicensed brands aren't that attentive and I don't support that.

Additionally, most brands that are actually looking to make their name within the industry don't have any incentive into scamming you. Why would they scam you for $200 one time, while they could win you over and turn into a stable player who will continuously return to the brand? It just doesn't make sense.

However, the casino will punish your stupid mistakes, things like;
#1. You play from a restricted country with fake documents, deposit $100 and win $1000, but don't want to KYC. You will not be able to withdraw your initial deposit, or the winnings.
#2. Players try to scam the casino with several accounts open, either on that solo casino or within the casino group. Again, a simple KYC will solve everything.
#3. Players don't read the TOS and complain about wagering requirements, especially in money laundering cases.

I assure you that on every 5 casinos that are "scamming customers" there are 10.000 players who are scamming the casino. So obviously we build strong matrix systems to guard us from them.

I was also active within the scams category on this forum and I can tell you that out of 10 cases in 9 cases the casino was right. People just don't read the TOS or don't know how the industry works, they get burned and they end up in that section whining. The worst thing is you have to dig through it like an idiot, the last customer that "got scammed" was actually playing from a restricted country, but didn't want to tell us that, we just found it out through a random screenshot he provided.