Keystone 3 HW talk

[dkbit98]

I heard about this news few months ago but I had to wait for official announcement, now it's here, new Keystone 3 hardware wallet is coming soon!

Anyone can join the waitlist with promotional discount price by posting on Keystone twitter page, and you can find that link Join Waitlist on their website.

What we know Keystone 3 so far?

Not much, but based on twitter posts and other information from Keystone team we know that new device will be redesigned and much thinner than in older models.

We don't know anything about the price and other changes compared to current Keystone wallets, but they are mentioning some new Security Schemes that will be revealed in few days.

I tried talking with Keystone team several times to find out more but communication on their end is very bad


https://keyst.one/


This topic will be used for posting any news and updates about new Keystone 3 device.

Note that I am not supporting Keystone wallet in any way, and you should do your own research for everything.

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[The Sceptical Chymist]

I did a quick duck-duck-a-go'in on the Keystone 3 as that pic you posted makes it look very much like a smartphone, and though I didn't find a better image I was zoning out and wondering if form factors of HW wallets follow any trends like cellphones did.  Many of you brilliantly brainiac youngsters might not have seen the evolution first-hand, but cellphones started out big and got progressively smaller (ending with some variation of the Razr I think) until smartphones just took over the world everywhere, all at once.  Those began small and then started getting much bigger as time went on.

And all of that blabbering is to say that I'm wondering if new HW wallets are being designed to look like modern day smartphones and breaking away from the "tiny device" form factor (Ledger, Blockstream Jade, Keepkey).  I know not all of them are, because there are a lot that mimic credit cards but it's got my mind....jigglin' like jelly.

Probably so far off topic that my above thoughts will get this post deleted, but I just want to say that I like the smaller HW wallets for the simple fact that they're easier to conceal if need be.  If you've got one the size of a standard smartphone, it's not exactly inconspicuous--plus I'd think that they'd be more prone to damage from dropping or some other form of damage to the screen.

Also:  You said you don't endorse the Keystone 3, dkbit98, and this time around I don't even need to heed your disclaimer.  After Ledger's little lie, I consider all hardware wallets to be collectibles only.  Fool me once, shame on me (in this case, because I was warned).  Fool me twice....ain't gonna happen.

[Pmalek]

There is a little bit more information in this blog post they released yesterday:
https://blog.keyst.one/paving-the-way-for-a-secure-web3-future-the-forthcoming-launch-of-keystone-3-62b8dc4810d0
Most of it, though, is about them telling the world why they are the best.

There is this close up of the upcoming Keystone 3, which really resembles a smartphone.


They have also released a timeline showing when more information about the upcoming product is supposed to become available. Most of it will be revealed by the end of the month.

[Yamane_Keto]

Keystone 3 HW with OKX partnership after some days of OKX new KYC restrictions. I hope it will be something useful.

And all of that blabbering is to say that I'm wondering if new HW wallets are being designed to look like modern day smartphones and breaking away from the "tiny device" form factor (Ledger, Blockstream Jade, Keepkey).  I know not all of them are, because there are a lot that mimic credit cards but it's got my mind....jigglin' like jelly.

The reason for this is that they want it to be an Airgapped HW, where all you need is an app on your phone and scan the HW QR to broadcast the transaction, there are no connections with your computer, all you need is to charge it.
in Ledger you need to connect it to your PC.

The large size comes from the battery and some parts such as the camera and SD card port, so it looks like smart phone.

[tenant48]

I expected to see the Cyberpunk version of the wallet that CEO Lixin promised to release in 2022 - 2023. This version was intended for advanced users who will be able to independently compile the firmware from open source and install it on the wallet.
Perhaps this version will be released as a variant of Keystone 3 if they haven't changed their plans.

[dkbit98]

Keystone 3 HW with OKX partnership after some days of OKX new KYC restrictions. I hope it will be something useful.

I hope they won't go the ledger route, and try to mess around with Recovery features and direct connection with exchanges that could reduce privacy.
Partnership could mean that OKX will offer co-branded Keystone devices, and last information I got is that Keystone will offer co-branding for their new device (like other hardware wallets are doing already).

The large size comes from the battery and some parts such as the camera and SD card port, so it looks like smart phone.

Maybe it looks like a smartphone from a far, but when you take it in hands you will notice much smaller size.

I expected to see the Cyberpunk version of the wallet that CEO Lixin promised to release in 2022 - 2023. This version was intended for advanced users who will be able to independently compile the firmware from open source and install it on the wallet.
Perhaps this version will be released as a variant of Keystone 3 if they haven't changed their plans.

Oh they changed plans many times since then
Last thing I heard is that Keystone 3 will be used for Bitcoin and shitcoins, and they will create different model of hardware wallet only for Bitcoin support.

[FatFork]

After Ledger's little lie, I consider all hardware wallets to be collectibles only.  Fool me once, shame on me (in this case, because I was warned).  Fool me twice....ain't gonna happen.

The thing I like most about Keystone is its fully air-gapped (no WiFi, BT, NFC, 3G/4G, etc.) approach. Even to update the firmware, you have to use an SD card, and you can't do it via cable. So, even if some stupid executive at the top of the company hierarchy decided at some point to follow the Ledger route, they wouldn't be able to do it with the current hardware.

They have developed an open QR code standard for interacting with wallet and signing transactions, which is starting to be accepted by almost all software wallet developers. I like their "sign only what you see" attitude and using QR codes is exactly what we need for a cold wallet. Of course, this has its drawbacks because the wallet must have a camera and a screen with a sufficiently high resolution, but I think it's a good compromise between security and usability.

[DaveF]

Part of the cell phone looking reasons may just be cost.
There are a lot of cases, screens, PCBs, camera modules and so on that exist for the cell phone world.
If you don't have to engineer the case and screen and camera module from an already existing smart phone. And, look the battery fits in the same spot that it did in the phone too.
Then all you have to do is the actual hardware board and you're done, but with a lot less time and cost.

No idea if that is the reason but I see it as a possibility.

-Dave

[Yamane_Keto]

As mentioned in their agenda, some of Secure Elements information has been released.
Secure Elements: The Bedrock of Hardware Wallet Security
https://blog.keyst.one/secure-elements-the-bedrock-of-hardware-wallet-security-1dd8cbdef461

Advanced Defenses of Secure Elements

• Fending off Side-Channel Attacks
• Hindering Power Analysis Attacks
• Thwarting Cold Boot Attacks
• Repelling Fault Attacks

The Keystone 3 is currently the ONLY hardware wallet that incorporates the use of three distinct secure elements: the Microchip ATECC608B, Maxim DS28S60, and Maxim MAX32520, offering a level of security that is unmatched.

Microchip ATECC608B and Maxim DS28S60 are specifically engineered to safeguard seed phrases. They collaboratively produce a secure environment for seed phrase storage, with the ATECC608B providing hardware-level security and authorization, and the DS28S60 ensuring a trusted platform module is always in place.

The Maxim MAX32520, on the other hand, is a secure microcontroller unit that plays a vital role in securing fingerprint data. It utilizes encrypted flash storage for safeguarding a user’s fingerprint data, with the verification process being executed securely within the MCU (only available in the Keystone 3 Pro).

Additionally, Keystone 3 incorporates a PCI-grade anti-tampering feature, with an intricate ‘security house’ of circuitry encompassing the core IC and SE chips. Any physical tampering results in an immediate data wipeout, further strengthening the device’s resilience. We’ll be publishing a separate article delving deeper into this topic in the coming weeks.

It seems that there are promising things, but they remain promises unless we get an accurate review from a third party, such as hardware professionals, or those who succeeded in hacking some HW with physical access to the device.

[dkbit98]

As mentioned in their agenda, some of Secure Elements information has been released.

This is really interesting update from Keystone that is going to use three secure elements in their new device Keystone 3.
Coldcard Q1 announced they will use two secure elements, but Keystone has gone step further with adding one more.
I have to update my topic on secure elements in hardware wallets, and I have exact chip models from keystone3, but one of them is only used for securing fingerprint data in Pro version.
That means that Keystone 3 regular version will have two secure elements.

New article revealed from images for Keystone3 and I think it looks much better and slicker than all previous Keystone models.
They also claim that battery life is improved and it will last much longer, but I hope replacement would stay easy, not like with most modern smartphones.
Very important thing I am waiting to see is the price of Keystone3, and anything between 100 to 200 USD is acceptable for me.

[thebitcoinhole]

Hi, we added Keystone 3 and Keystone 3 Pro to our website, where we compare more than 30 different hardware wallets: https://thebitcoinhole.com/
We tried to get all the available info about this new wallet. We will update the missing data as soon as more info is release by Keystone.

We also have this page where we compare Keystone 3 vs Keystone 3 Pro: https://thebitcoinhole.com/wallets/keystone-3-vs-keystone-3-pro

[dkbit98]

First video review of the new Keystone 3 pro hardware wallet was released by MineYourBiz, and I recommend everyone to check it out.
It's interesting that you can see how this wallet works, but you will also see teardown and opening of device itself.
Note that this is not final product but it is very similar and internal components should be almost identical.


Source video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2igVmmRvdn0

The main difference I see here is much smaller battery that can't be removed/replaced without destroying the device, there is pros and cons with this, but I am personally not a fan of integrated batteries.
Size of Keystone3 is a bit smaller than in older Keystone wallets (103.9 x 62.44 x 12.08 mm vs 112 x 65 x 18 mm) and it has smoother edges, but size of the screen appears to be the same size.
Keystone will be adding USB and Bluetooth connection with PC in this model, and I think they are second hardware wallet after Cypherock X1 to add support for multiple seed phrases.
Overall it looks like interesting device but there are few things I don't like (integrated battery, bluetooth) and I will have to see the final price to say if this is worth or not.

[tenant48]

^
A non-removable battery, and in addition a 2032 type battery that will fail sooner or later. I wouldn't recommend buying this wallet. For now I will use my Keystone pro.

[dkbit98]

A non-removable battery, and in addition a 2032 type battery that will fail sooner or later. I wouldn't recommend buying this wallet. For now I will use my Keystone pro.

No big reasons to upgrade anything if you already own Keystone wallet.
Advantage is that it's much harder to tamper with this new device and modify anything if you are a malicious actor, so it's not all black & white.
However, I would love to see Keystone 3 special separate wallet version with removable battery, and I don't think this would be a problem for Keystone team.
Right now I think OneKey Touch is the main competition for Keystone3, and OneKey is significantly smaller and lighter device that has the same size screen.

[FatFork]

^
A non-removable battery, and in addition a 2032 type battery that will fail sooner or later. I wouldn't recommend buying this wallet. For now I will use my Keystone pro.

The CR2032 Lithium battery you see in the pictures is probably only for backup, and possibly for the internal clock. If you watch the complete teardown video, you can spot the pouch battery pack, similar to those used in various consumer devices with a rechargeable battery. I can't make out the manufacturer's number from the video, so I don't know the exact specifications of the battery. However, judging by the design and size, it's probably a Li-Polymer battery of at least several hundred mAh (some unconfirmed sources suggest 1000mAh). Such a battery, depending on the way the device is used and stored, can last for many years without major problems (very likely over 1000 charges).

I think that's more than enough lifespan for a device of this type because I doubt that anyone would want to use some old piece of hardware for their finances for say 10 years or more.

[n0nce]

Smartphones just took over the world everywhere, all at once.  Those began small and then started getting much bigger as time went on.

And all of that blabbering is to say that I'm wondering if new HW wallets are being designed to look like modern day smartphones and breaking away from the "tiny device" form factor.

Well, it did make sense to increase phone size when people started browsing the web and watching movies on them. Hardware wallets will not need a bigger screen for anything, because their function will not substantially change. Therefore, I see no reason for huge hardware wallets.

I do enjoy devices that have a proper keypad or keyboard, since that allows me to quickly enter longer passphrases and passwords. So a certain minimum size would be needed, but not for a huge screen.

Also:  You said you don't endorse the Keystone 3, dkbit98, and this time around I don't even need to heed your disclaimer.  After Ledger's little lie, I consider all hardware wallets to be collectibles only.  Fool me once, shame on me (in this case, because I was warned).  Fool me twice....ain't gonna happen.

Personally, I believe we should keep in mind that Ledger was always a full-stack closed-source product. It's easy to 'fool' people when you keep them in the dark.
If a device is fully open and verifiable, e.g. following some of what https://betrusted.io/ are doing, it puts these little things miles ahead in terms of trust and 'reduced fooling potential' compared to something like a Ledger.

The Keystone 3 is currently the ONLY hardware wallet that incorporates the use of three distinct secure elements: the Microchip ATECC608B, Maxim DS28S60, and Maxim MAX32520, offering a level of security that is unmatched.

Microchip ATECC608B and Maxim DS28S60 are specifically engineered to safeguard seed phrases. They collaboratively produce a secure environment for seed phrase storage, with the ATECC608B providing hardware-level security and authorization, and the DS28S60 ensuring a trusted platform module is always in place.

The Maxim MAX32520, on the other hand, is a secure microcontroller unit that plays a vital role in securing fingerprint data. It utilizes encrypted flash storage for safeguarding a user’s fingerprint data, with the verification process being executed securely within the MCU (only available in the Keystone 3 Pro).

Additionally, Keystone 3 incorporates a PCI-grade anti-tampering feature, with an intricate ‘security house’ of circuitry encompassing the core IC and SE chips. Any physical tampering results in an immediate data wipeout, further strengthening the device’s resilience. We’ll be publishing a separate article delving deeper into this topic in the coming weeks.

Wow, that's actually pretty nice. They're not the first ones to try a multi-secure element design, but others combined it e.g. with the secure element of their NFC IC (with the obvious drawbacks that come with this design decision..).

I'm excited to see the source files of this device and maybe also buy one for review.

The main difference I see here is much smaller battery that can't be removed/replaced without destroying the device, there is pros and cons with this, but I am personally not a fan of integrated batteries.

Unfortunately, this makes it quite unsuited as a long-term / semi-cold-storage option. On a Passport, you can pop out the Li-Ion battery if you know the device won't be used for 6 months, which greatly reduces risk of pillowing.^[1]

Keystone will be adding USB and Bluetooth connection with PC in this model, and I think they are second hardware wallet after Cypherock X1 to add support for multiple seed phrases.

That's unfortunate, as well. Also looks quite a bit less fancy (thicker, cheaper) than the renders.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/04/18/lithium-ion-battery-swelling-why/

[m2017]

^
A non-removable battery, and in addition a 2032 type battery that will fail sooner or later. I wouldn't recommend buying this wallet. For now I will use my Keystone pro.

The CR2032 Lithium battery you see in the pictures is probably only for backup, and possibly for the internal clock. If you watch the complete teardown video, you can spot the pouch battery pack, similar to those used in various consumer devices with a rechargeable battery. I can't make out the manufacturer's number from the video, so I don't know the exact specifications of the battery. However, judging by the design and size, it's probably a Li-Polymer battery of at least several hundred mAh (some unconfirmed sources suggest 1000mAh). Such a battery, depending on the way the device is used and stored, can last for many years without major problems (very likely over 1000 charges).

I think that's more than enough lifespan for a device of this type because I doubt that anyone would want to use some old piece of hardware for their finances for say 10 years or more.

Just for the sake of the internal clock, add CR2032 to this device? Doubtful. Will this battery work as backup power? Is it suitable for this? Another question is, if the CR2032 runs out at the moment of confirming the transaction, how will this affect this process? Although this can happen only after many years, because I think the load on her will be small.

The internal battery is of course less preferable, but it allows you to make the Keystone more compact. Even 1000 mAh should be enough to run a hardware wallet. Here, after all, the device will be turned on only at the time of confirmation of transactions and, moreover, for a short time. You won't be watching videos on a Keystone , which would drain the battery very quickly.

[dkbit98]

Keystone just released new blog article and we now have official prices for new Keystone 3 devices and they are not bad at all compared to other hardware wallets.
Keystone 3 price is going to be $99 and Keystone 3 Pro version (with biometrics) price is going to be $129, and maybe there will be some additional discount for people who first got whitelisted.
That is significantly lower price compared with OneKey, Trezor T, Passport and other hardware wallets, and it's one of the first device with three secure elements, and ability to store three seed phrases.


source: https://blog.keyst.one/keystone-3-the-ultimate-protector-of-your-digital-assets-122144288fad

Another thing I noticed today is changed Logo on their X-twitter page is the new logo, so I am think they are in process of rebranding.


@KeystoneWallet

I think that's more than enough lifespan for a device of this type because I doubt that anyone would want to use some old piece of hardware for their finances for say 10 years or more.

Any lithium battery will die way before that even if it is maintained in a best way, but I hope there is still an option to power USB cable and power on device.

Unfortunately, this makes it quite unsuited as a long-term / semi-cold-storage option. On a Passport, you can pop out the Li-Ion battery if you know the device won't be used for 6 months, which greatly reduces risk of pillowing.

I agree it's better to have removable battery, but I think you can easily have additional external battery connected with USB cable, or just connect it directly with power source.
Passport is more quality device but it's double the price of Keystone, so I wouldn't complain very much

[Yamane_Keto]

Keystone 3 price is going to be $99 and Keystone 3 Pro version (with biometrics) price is going to be $129, and maybe there will be some additional discount for people who first got whitelisted.

Does biometrics require about $30, I don’t know, but it is not an essential feature to add to this price. I thought it would be possible with that price to remove the logo or different designs from the basic one.

and ability to store three seed phrases.

What is the benefit of this? you can create thousands of accounts by create and delete a wallet in many HW wallets, which I think is safer than keeping 3 wallets at the same time.

The battery is another problem, but at this price and with the Black Friday sales (if they happen), I think it is appropriate.
The feature that caught my eye is PCI-grade anti-tampering feature which is a good trend that hardware wallets now take into account physical attacks.

[FatFork]

Just for the sake of the internal clock, add CR2032 to this device? Doubtful. Will this battery work as backup power? Is it suitable for this? Another question is, if the CR2032 runs out at the moment of confirming the transaction, how will this affect this process? Although this can happen only after many years, because I think the load on her will be small.

What is the purpose of the CR2032 battery on PC motherboards? As far as I know, they are used to power the internal clock and retain the BIOS settings. Nothing more. And, in my experience, these batteries tend to outlast the average lifespan of a motherboard. I've only had to change the motherboard battery once in my life, and that was on a very old Pentium based system.

Following that analogy, I assume the battery in Keystone HW is also responsible for supplying power to the internal clock and to the security chip's memory.