Keystone 3 HW talk

[dkbit98]

I do not dispute the fact that the Ledger nano S has been discontinued, which is absolutely natural since they are replaced by the nano s plus model, but they still receive firmware updates.

So does Keystone previous version.
It is more likely that ledger will soon stop updating ledger S, because they announced it themselves.
But if you like using ledgers old closed source junk, go ahead and do it, your choice.

You also write about the low price of the Keystone, but I bought my Keystone Pro for $169 and pretty soon I'll have to throw it in the dustbin. I also want to remind you that they previously released one of the most expensive wallets in the world Cobo vault worth $479, which someone probably bought and already threw in the trash.

Keystone always had a lot of discounts and promotions.
I never said they are cheap or cheapest wallet in the world, but they are certainly airgapped open source devices with fair price.

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[zherbert]

I never said they are cheap or cheapest wallet in the world, but they are certainly airgapped open source devices with fair price.

Keystone is not open source, and I have been considering writing a blog posts that dives into their claims.

Here's their 5 GB+ Android OS that does not have source code available:

https://github.com/KeystoneHQ/Keystone-system

Due to copyright, some vendors’ code cannot be made public, and we have removed some of the code from the source code. Therefore this open source code cannot be compiled. However, we can share this part of code under an NDA if you want to fully verify the code and reproduce it. Please send an email to eng@keyst.one. Since the size of a single repo on github cannot exceed 5G, we put the code on AWS. You can access the code through this link: keystone-system

What about their secure element firmware? Looks like that code can only be compiled with proprietary ARM software called Keil. https://github.com/KeystoneHQ/keystone-se-firmware

Additionally, there is no information as to who even makes their secure element. It's some kind of white labeled processor. https://github.com/KeystoneHQ/Keystone-developer-hub/blob/main/hardware/Keystone_V1.02_BOM.xls

Furthermore, their hardware schematic is not all-inclusive and omits the self-destruct mechanism.

Hopefully Keystone 3 will actually be open source, but I am growing tired of hardware wallet companies hiding behind false claims of open source. It really damages the definition and I consider it attack on the FOSS movement.

[thebitcoinhole]

Do you know if there will be any other difference between Keystone 3 Pro and regular version, except the lack of biometric fingerprint scanner and third secure element?

Yes. there are other differences. For example Keystone 3 doesn't support multiple private keys at the same time as the Pro version. Also not supporting upgrade using the USB cable.
You can see a comparation between both versions here: https://thebitcoinhole.com/wallets/keystone-3-vs-keystone-3-pro

[dkbit98]

Keystone is not open source, and I have been considering writing a blog posts that dives into their claims.

I would be interested to read that blog post, and I know WalletScrutiny could not verify source code for older version but that was one year ago.
This is not the first time I saw companies from China doing modification on source codes like this.

What about their secure element firmware? Looks like that code can only be compiled with proprietary ARM software called Keil. https://github.com/KeystoneHQ/keystone-se-firmware

I don't think there is any open source secure elements yet, so that means that all hardware wallets have weak spot here.
Not that I am comparing this with Keystone example.

Additionally, there is no information as to who even makes their secure element. It's some kind of white labeled processor. https://github.com/KeystoneHQ/Keystone-developer-hub/blob/main/hardware/Keystone_V1.02_BOM.xls

This is for older device, I am not sure they released code for new devices yet.
They changed it now and they released in public name of all secure elements, one of them is the same chip like Passport is using.
ATECC608B + Maxim DS28S60 (+ Maxim MAX32520 that is used only for Keystone 3 Pro version)

Hopefully Keystone 3 will actually be open source, but I am growing tired of hardware wallet companies hiding behind false claims of open source. It really damages the definition and I consider it attack on the FOSS movement.

I agree with this.
When I asked Keystone CEO all this questions he refused to tell me more information, I think becasue they have signed some NDA crap.  

Yes. there are other differences. For example Keystone 3 doesn't support multiple private keys at the same time as the Pro version. Also not supporting upgrade using the USB cable.

Maybe this is not such a bad thing, since I don't consider Keystone 3 Pro to be true airgapped device anymore.

[Pmalek]

The Trezor One and Ledger nano S were released in 2014 and 2016, respectively, and continue to receive updates to this day.

Regarding Ledger Nano S, it continues to receive some updates but not all. The crypto apps are the same for all three Ledger devices. So, when an app gets updated, users of all three models can update it on their end. The only thing the developers need to pay attention to is the limited memory on the old Nano S.

The firmware is a different question, though. The latest version of the Nano S firmware came out in late 2021. No updates since then.
At the same time, the Nano X's latest firmware version was released in July 2023.
The Nano S Plus' newest firmware dates back to February 2023.

Based on this, it's clear that the Nano S doesn't have priority for the Ledger team. 

I don't think there is any open source secure elements yet, so that means that all hardware wallets have weak spot here.

Me neither, but at the same time we have Foundation Passport that claims that all its software and hardware is open-source.

[dkbit98]

Foundation Passport that claims that all its software and hardware is open-source.

Except secure element part.
ATECC608A and ATECC608B chips are probably better and more open then other secure elements used in hardware wallets, but they are still not open source.
Kestone is including this same secure element in new Keystone3, but they have additional secure element(s) from different manufacturers.


All Keystone 3 has been sold out!
You can now only order pre-sale Keystone with 20% discount, for around $103 + shipping.
They expect send batch to arrive in November.

[Pmalek]

Except secure element part.

In that case one can't say that the hardware structure of Foundation Passport is open-source. A great deal of it is, probably more than with other manufacturers. But you are still dealing with an essential close-source chip that is the Secure Element and probably NDAs just like with other brands. I remember that I read somewhere that they have an open-source hardware license. Not sure how one can acquire that unless each component qualifies as open-source. Anyways, this is the wrong topic for such discussions.   

[lyw123]

I never said they are cheap or cheapest wallet in the world, but they are certainly airgapped open source devices with fair price.

Keystone is not open source, and I have been considering writing a blog posts that dives into their claims.

Here's their 5 GB+ Android OS that does not have source code available:

https://github.com/KeystoneHQ/Keystone-system

Due to copyright, some vendors’ code cannot be made public, and we have removed some of the code from the source code. Therefore this open source code cannot be compiled. However, we can share this part of code under an NDA if you want to fully verify the code and reproduce it. Please send an email to eng@keyst.one. Since the size of a single repo on github cannot exceed 5G, we put the code on AWS. You can access the code through this link: keystone-system

What about their secure element firmware? Looks like that code can only be compiled with proprietary ARM software called Keil. https://github.com/KeystoneHQ/keystone-se-firmware

Additionally, there is no information as to who even makes their secure element. It's some kind of white labeled processor. https://github.com/KeystoneHQ/Keystone-developer-hub/blob/main/hardware/Keystone_V1.02_BOM.xls

Furthermore, their hardware schematic is not all-inclusive and omits the self-destruct mechanism.

Hopefully Keystone 3 will actually be open source, but I am growing tired of hardware wallet companies hiding behind false claims of open source. It really damages the definition and I consider it attack on the FOSS movement.

I didn't notice your remarks earlier, but I have already placed an order for a Keystone 3 Pro. Although I am a Chinese, but don't have much trust in Chinese products. There are very few well-known hardware wallets that support altcoins, which is quite unfortunate and leaves limited options.
I'm trying to contact Keystone for a refund. Alternatively, buying a Bitbox would be more reassuring.

[dkbit98]

Finally I managed to saw one video review for new Keystone 3 hardware wallet, and btw what's up with manufacturers naming hardware wallets with boring number 3, first it was Keystone, than Trezor, who is next Bitbox or Passport?

Anyway, here is Keystone 3 video review made by Crypto Guide, I suggest everyone to watch it if you can, it's around 20 minutes long.
Important thing he notices about open source claims, Keystone said they will enable it later in November, that is next month so let's see what happens.
As of now Keystone 3 is still NOT open source device (yet).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyi-YznynSk

[Pmalek]

and btw what's up with manufacturers naming hardware wallets with boring number 3, first it was Keystone, than Trezor, who is next Bitbox or Passport?

Based on the information I found, Keystone used to have the Keystone Essential and the Keystone Pro. But the latter is just a better version of the former, so it's basically Keystone 1. Their Keystone 3 and Keystone 3 Pro versions should then be Keystone 2. Again we are looking at almost the same type of device. So I don't follow the logic of naming it Keystone 3. It would make more sense to call it Keystone 2 or Keystone 3 and 4.

It makes more sense for Trezor to do it. Trezor One is #1, Trezor T is #2, and Trezor Safe 3 is #3.

Important thing he notices about open source claims, Keystone said they will enable it later in November, that is next month so let's see what happens.

They call the wallet open-source software and hardware-wise all over their website and shop. Making it open-source in November doesn't change the fact that it wasn't like that in the past, and if the code wasn't verifiable, it could have done anything during that timeframe. 

[SFR10]

Important thing he notices about open source claims, Keystone said they will enable it later in November, that is next month so let's see what happens.

Looking forward to reading more about their embedded system ^{[it looks quite laggy on a new device in 2023 (not sure if it's poorly optimized or the internal components aren't good enough)]}.
For those who are interested in getting one of these HWs, there's a 20% discount for its pre-sale that ends in 4 days!

[lyw123]

For those who are interested in getting one of these HWs, there's a 20% discount for its pre-sale that ends in 4 days!

I want 3 different brands of open source hardware wallets to store altcoins and spread risk.
I currently use Trezor One and placed an order of BitBox02, and need a third one of different brand.
I have noticed that Keystone 3 pro used an embedded system, not the previous Android OS.
But I am not sure whether Keystone 3 will be completely open source like Trezor Safe 3 and Bitbox02, and be reproducible.
Or just wait a few months for more informations?
(Note: I cancelled my previous keystone 3 pro order)

[SFR10]

But I am not sure whether Keystone 3 will be completely open source like Trezor Safe 3 and Bitbox02, and be reproducible.
Or just wait a few months for more informations?
(Note: I cancelled my previous keystone 3 pro order)

The only thing I know is this piece of information:

• The release of the open source codes for Keystone 3 will be done in a staggered manner rather than simultaneous. This approach is necessary to protect our users from the heightened risk of cyberattacks that typically arise when the source code is revealed, as it simplifies the process of identifying vulnerabilities.

[Ugali]

I need to sign a message to prove ownership of a receiving address on my new Keystone 3 Pro.
I did that before with Electrum and a BitBox02. But Electrum can't seem to sign messages using an airgapped wallet.
Any idea how to sign a message with Keystone 3 Pro?

[dkbit98]

Any idea how to sign a message with Keystone 3 Pro?

I don't have Keystone 3 to test this, but maybe you can try signing a message using Sparrow wallet in combination with Keystone device:
https://sparrowwallet.com/

If this doens't work, try askiing for help from keystone team.

[Ugali]

As far as I can see Sparrow can't sign a message via an airgapped device either.
But I'll do some research.

[dkbit98]

As far as I can see Sparrow can't sign a message via an airgapped device either.

Keystone added USB connection in model 3 so it's not really full airgapped device anymore, even if you can currently only use USB connection for updating firmware.

[Meuserna]

EDIT:  I'm a dummy.  I thought you meant sign a transaction, not a message because I missed your previous comment higher up.  To sign a message, try again with Electrum.  Their UI is clunky, but I'm 99% sure you can sign a message in Electrum even using an airgapped device, but figuring out how is buried in the UI.

Here's my original comment.

As far as I can see Sparrow can't sign a message via an airgapped device either.

Sure it can.  It works with airgapped wallets.  I think the trick is to set up a Watch Only Wallet.  In order to spend from a Watch Only Wallet, you'll use QR codes to communicate with your airgapped device.

The setup definitely could be more intuitive, but Sparrow seems like a really good choice.  I like BlueWallet because it's more intuitive, but I might switch to Sparrow at some point.

Here's the info on Sparrow's website (I did a quick search).

[DaveF]

Keystone added USB connection in model 3 so it's not really full airgapped device anymore, even if you can currently only use USB connection for updating firmware.

But if you don't use the USB cable it's still airgapped. It just can be made not to be airgapped.
Same as if I take my airgapped laptop, boot into the BIOS enable the network card and then plug in a Cat-5 cable.

Up until that moment it WAS airgapped.

Splitting hairs I know, and it's best to make sure people can't do something stupid (because they will) but probably not that big a deal with all the other issues out there.

-Dave

[dkbit98]

But if you don't use the USB cable it's still airgapped. It just can be made not to be airgapped.

That would be the same thing as saying that laptop is still airgapped even if it has wifi card installed but you are not going to use it, someone else could still use it.
It's really simple, if there is an option to use a cable connection - most people will use it, so effectively they will made it not airgapped.
Keystone devs only did this change because lazy customers complained how slow it is to update firmware