Keystone 3 HW talk

[safar1980]

But Trezor One supports few coins.

I think it supports plenty of what deserves to be supported. There is a lot of garbage that lacks support. It's too bad that you can't use Monero on the Trezor One model. If it wasn't for the hardware limitations, the team would have added it. I think it's a problem of too little RAM.

Solana, Polkadot, Toncoin are not available. But this is not such a problem as Tron support.
https://trezor.io/coins
Their blog talks about ten years of experience, but they cannot solve problems with memory, which is now inexpensive. If you compare the expensive Trezor T with the Keystone 3 Pro, then I don’t understand why the Trezor T costs $180.

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[JayJuanGee]

But Trezor One supports few coins.

I think it supports plenty of what deserves to be supported. There is a lot of garbage that lacks support. It's too bad that you can't use Monero on the Trezor One model. If it wasn't for the hardware limitations, the team would have added it. I think it's a problem of too little RAM.

Solana, Polkadot, Toncoin are not available. But this is not such a problem as Tron support.
https://trezor.io/coins
Their blog talks about ten years of experience, but they cannot solve problems with memory, which is now inexpensive. If you compare the expensive Trezor T with the Keystone 3 Pro, then I don’t understand why the Trezor T costs $180.

I would not claim to know the answer to your questions about cost differentiation, yet so far Trezor has been able to charge premium prices.

Trezor T  does have a higher rating of 4.3 as compared with Keystone's 3.4 here:  https://www.athena-alpha.com/crypto-wallets/ and you can look at methodology here. https://www.athena-alpha.com/crypto-wallets/rating-methodology/

You can compare features here:
https://thebitcoinhole.com/hardware-wallets
(filter by name and just look at those two wallets side by side - and maybe include any other HW that you want to compare the features side by side)

[dkbit98]

I think the Seedsigner should still be considered as experimental software and hardware. It's created by a small team of enthusiasts.

Same like bitcoin... still experimental.
Hardware is far from experimental, it's battle tested well known Rasoberry Pi Zero that is used.

Solana, Polkadot, Toncoin are not available. But this is not such a problem as Tron support.

You can't expect them to run all shitcoin nodes out there.
I think new Trezor 3 Safe added support for solana, but I prefer using bitcoin only firmware.

Trezor T  does have a higher rating of 4.3 as compared with Keystone's 3.4 here

I would not blindly trust any ratings, but I did heard that Keystone wallet have very bad customer support, I think this is typical for most products based in China.

[JayJuanGee]

Trezor T  does have a higher rating of 4.3 as compared with Keystone's 3.4 here

I would bt blindly< trust any ratings, but I did heard that Keystone wallet have very bad customer support, I think this is typical for most products based in China.

Yes.. Athena provides their methodology - and that is part of the reason that I included that link, so that anyone could see how they say that they reach their numbers, whether you agree with their methodology or their criteria or their rating or not.

[Pmalek]

@safar1980
Yeah, not having Tron is a big drawback, especially for those who are dealing with stablecoins like tether, which is very popular on the Tron network.

The Trezor T has always been too expensive, even now on a discount. But Keystone isn't open-source and they couldn't prove that they are. To many, that's a deal breaker. The Keystone, though, has a much better display.

[safar1980]

But Trezor One supports few coins.

I think it supports plenty of what deserves to be supported. There is a lot of garbage that lacks support. It's too bad that you can't use Monero on the Trezor One model. If it wasn't for the hardware limitations, the team would have added it. I think it's a problem of too little RAM.

Solana, Polkadot, Toncoin are not available. But this is not such a problem as Tron support.
https://trezor.io/coins
Their blog talks about ten years of experience, but they cannot solve problems with memory, which is now inexpensive. If you compare the expensive Trezor T with the Keystone 3 Pro, then I don’t understand why the Trezor T costs $180.

I would not claim to know the answer to your questions about cost differentiation, yet so far Trezor has been able to charge premium prices.

Trezor T  does have a higher rating of 4.3 as compared with Keystone's 3.4 here:  https://www.athena-alpha.com/crypto-wallets/ and you can look at methodology here. https://www.athena-alpha.com/crypto-wallets/rating-methodology/

You can compare features here:
https://thebitcoinhole.com/hardware-wallets
(filter by name and just look at those two wallets side by side - and maybe include any other HW that you want to compare the features side by side)

You provided good links.
But the rating of this site is not authoritative for me, because Keystone 3 pro and Nano X have the same ratings, although there have been many rumors that the ledger can steal users’ private keys and has the ability to transfer seed phrases to cloud storage.
For Keystone 3 pro, the team promised to make it possible to decode QR codes in the old version of the wallet, so that the user would be confident in the safety of his keys.

[Pmalek]

@safar1980
Ledger being close-sourced means that no one has any idea about what the company can or can't do. But it's the same thing with Keystone. Their promises of doing this or that is the same as Ledger promising to make more of their software open-source without anything actually happening.

[safar1980]

@safar1980
Ledger being close-sourced means that no one has any idea about what the company can or can't do. But it's the same thing with Keystone. Their promises of doing this or that is the same as Ledger promising to make more of their software open-source without anything actually happening.

The Ledger wallet connects to the computer via cable or Bluetooth, and we do not know what data the wallet transmits.
At Keystone, we can decode the QR code and see what data the wallet transmits. I read this in the chat of Vladimir Abovyan, who owns the sunscrypt store. He uses this wallet himself.

[Pmalek]

@safar1980
Nevertheless, it's still a closed-source product, and it relies on you trusting them not to do anything nasty.
The QR code is only one segment. You have no idea how safe their seed-generation system is, and no one does because there is no way to check it.

[safar1980]

@safar1980
Nevertheless, it's still a closed-source product, and it relies on you trusting them not to do anything nasty.
The QR code is only one segment. You have no idea how safe their seed-generation system is, and no one does because there is no way to check it.

you are right, but in this wallet 2 security chips are responsible for generating the seed phrase.

I have a 15-25% discount coupon,which was in the box with the wallet, but I can't use it in my country. If you need it, write to me. I'll give the coupon to the first person to write.

[safar1980]

@safar1980
Nevertheless, it's still a closed-source product, and it relies on you trusting them not to do anything nasty.
The QR code is only one segment. You have no idea how safe their seed-generation system is, and no one does because there is no way to check it.

Keystone added seed phrase generation to the wallet using dice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qn9fR43yCE

For verification, you can use Open Source software to make sure that the wallet does not replace data.
https://iancoleman.io/bip39/

Keystone works with verified third-party wallets and we can decode QR codes.
With the new firmware, this wallet looks very secure, and if you additionally use a passphrase, this will be a very good method of protection.

[Pmalek]

For verification, you can use Open Source software to make sure that the wallet does not replace data.
https://iancoleman.io/bip39/

You should only enter your seed on Ian Coleman's tool to test if the wallet generates the same addresses as what you are getting from the hardware device. Never enter your actual seed phrase into Ian Coleman, especially not on an internet-connected computer. The Ian Coleman tool should be used on an airgapped system. If you don't have that, never enter sensitive data into your browser. 

[DaveF]

...Keystone added seed phrase generation to the wallet using dice....

That was the last firmware update.
They have a new one that just came out today

https://keyst.one/firmware <-- Don't trust links verify for yourself.

Fixed / tweaked a few other things too.

-Dave

[dkbit98]

Keystone added seed phrase generation to the wallet using dice.

This is a very good thing coming from Keystone, especially since they finally recently released their open source code for Keystone 3.
I would suggest purchasing casino grade dices instead of regular ones, they are not that much expensive and they are ten times better.
Note that this dices can be used to generate seed words even without Keystone

I am waiting to see Keystone new Bitcoin only hardware wallet that was announced to be released around bitcoin halving date, and I hope it's not the same as Keystone 3 with different firmware.
I want to see removable battery back, and maybe adding protection for screen with basic waterproofing.

[n0nce]

I am waiting to see Keystone new Bitcoin only hardware wallet that was announced to be released around bitcoin halving date, and I hope it's not the same as Keystone 3 with different firmware.
I want to see removable battery back, and maybe adding protection for screen with basic waterproofing.

No offense to Keystone, but from what we've seen from other manufacturers, it seems industry standard that the 'Bitcoin-only option' is the same hardware with a Bitcoin-only firmware.
Which is not bad and totally sufficient for me, especially if it's somehow technically locked to only run Bitcoin-only firmware. The idea is to prevent someone flashing the 'regular' firmware with bigger attack surface, even if just temporarily, and getting their valuable Bitcoin seed phrase stolen. I know that BitBox02 Bitcoin-only works like that.

But of course, as hardcore Bitcoin users we'd love to get something special. I just wouldn't hold my breath.

[dkbit98]

No offense to Keystone, but from what we've seen from other manufacturers, it seems industry standard that the 'Bitcoin-only option' is the same hardware with a Bitcoin-only firmware.

Older keystone devices had the option of choosing Bitcoin only firmware, but you could not return back and install multi-coin version again.
Trezor also has bitcoin only firmware but I think you can always flash it and install multi-coin firmware on same devices.

The idea is to prevent someone flashing the 'regular' firmware with bigger attack surface, even if just temporarily, and getting their valuable Bitcoin seed phrase stolen. I know that BitBox02 Bitcoin-only works like that.

Not sure how bitbox firmware installation works but I know they have two different device versions.
As for Keystone, if I understood correctly they plan to release totally different device for Bitcoin halving, so both hardware and software will be different.
Let's wait and see... Bitcoin halving is in less than 90 days, so time is ticking away for Keystone.

[safar1980]

Why does Keystone 3 only have Bitcoin firmware? My ledger is updated only through official software and the manufacturer knows what firmware I have and may be able to get my private keys. Keystone 3 has secure update via SD card.

[n0nce]

~

Sorry, It seems that I misremembered; looks like BitBox02 'edition' cannot be switched, not even from Multi to Bitcoin-only (not even permanently).

Can I switch the BitBox02 edition firmware?
No, it's not possible to convert a BitBox02 Multi edition into a BitBox02 Bitcoin-only edition or vice-versa.

The BitBox02 bootloader prevents firmware downgrades and installing firmware for a different edition of the BitBox02 (Multi or Bitcoin-only) as otherwise that would be a security attack vector.

Anyway; back to the topic.

As for Keystone, if I understood correctly they plan to release totally different device for Bitcoin halving, so both hardware and software will be different.
Let's wait and see... Bitcoin halving is in less than 90 days, so time is ticking away for Keystone.

This sounds exciting, I'll be looking forward to the news then!

[satscraper]

BTW, today is the last day of their 20% discount for coming Keystone 3 Pro.

Ledger users who can prove their purchase  are even in favored  position as  they may enjoy lifelong  offer to pay for device 28% less than its ordinary price at the  time of purchase.

Also they promise to delete all shipping data after 180 days to prevent them from leaking.

[SFR10]

Why does Keystone 3 only have Bitcoin firmware?

AFAIK, despite their plans to bring it to the market in "September of last year", they still haven't released Keystone 3 and the Pro variant only comes with a "multi-coin firmware".
^{- Am I missing something here?}